Deaf Surgeon?

[SocialistMD]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Between the three surgeons I've been working with, I know the way they handle their sutures and clamps. Before the surgeon even cuts through the skin, I know which layer he's going in, I know what structures he has to watch out for. Being prepared in that sense allows you to be in better control of the situation...I pre-read ahead of time on the type of surgery we're doing. So while surgery is performed, I know what's what. This allows me to be prepared way ahead of time so I have better control of knowing what's happening...

To be fair, this is what every good medical student and resident should be doing.

The surgeon wears a Stryker mask so I can see his/her entire face which allows for some lipreading.

I'm assuming you aren't talking about the Stryker Flyte Suits, as those are not at all practical for daily use unless you plan to do orthopedics. I know that Kimberly-Clark is working on a clear mask, but I haven't been able to find one online (even with a Stryker.com specific search). That said, and to continue the argument made by previous posters, there are simply times where you can't look up to get visual cues from your attending, and no matter how much preparation you do there will always be something that is beyond your knowledge and where you won't know what to do. It is to these times that PilotDoc and howelljolly refer in their talk of "mastery" and it is in dealing with these situations that your being deaf will put you at a substantial disadvantage and your patient's life in greater jeopardy.

And as med students, you know well that any inexperienced person would not have a clue what's happening in a code.

Aside # 1: Most of us are actually residents or faculty, but that is neither here nor there.

Even as an attending, they'll just ask the nurse how the patient's doing. They'll say bowel sounds present. The surgeon isn't going to auscultate. They'll just chart the fact the patient has bowel sounds because the nurse told them.

Aside # 2: This isn't true. We simply don't comment on the bowel sounds because most of us think there is no point in listening, yet know that if we write an exam finding we have not actually found, it is malpractice and we can be sued as such.

It's all about adapting the work environment and having a good team. It just takes an open mind and creativity and you'll be surprised at what comes out of it. Having a negative attitude from the beginning without problem solving is deconstructive.

With this, I agree. I don't think you should limit yourself and I applaud your interest and tenacity for the field. However, you shouldn't assume it is going to be something easily accomplished (be it political, communication or personal barriers) and you shouldn't assume that what you can do, however admirable and ideal, isn't beyond the scope of what other good medical students and junior surgical residents do. Don't build up too much of a head of steam (which is kind of how you come off, probably prompting DHT to reply what s/he did), as you still have a long way to go, deaf or not.

 

[GSresident]

To the OP -
I have two deaf daughters. One is 4 and has a cochlear implant. The other is 6 months and will likely get one when she turns 1.

I wouldn't let someone else tell you what is possible for you.

I hope that the deaf medical student who posted about surgery is the real thing. It gives me hope that at least a few surgeons eventually develop enough compassion and humanity to at least try to accommodate another human being who has a problem.

 

[Pilot Doc]

It gives me hope that at least a few surgeons eventually develop enough compassion and humanity to at least try to accommodate another human being who has a problem.

I say this in all seriousness with no malice, spite or mocking intended.

What about a blind surgeon?
What about a surgeon with no hands?

Complete deafness with the inability to communicate by any means by signing is as a problem that reasonable, compassionate, humane people can think is fundamentally incompatible with the practice of surgery.

 

[radslooking]

.

 

[Dimoak]

IMHO, an individual with extremely poor hearing or extremely poor vision would be by orders of magnitude easier to train to become a surgeon than an individual who is completely deaf or completely blind.

 

[DEAF]

IMHO, an individual with extremely poor hearing or extremely poor vision would be by orders of magnitude easier to train to become a surgeon than an individual who is completely deaf or completely blind.

Pointless. I respectfully don't agree with you on the extremely poor hearing part, but it's just your opinion.

I have two deaf daughters. One is 4 and has a cochlear implant. The other is 6 months and will likely get one when she turns 1.

Aw. I am amusing you have a deaf wife, or girlfriend? Or it's just your wife/girlfriend who is a gene carrier?
I don't let people tell me what is possible for me, but I know a deaf person being a surgeon is a not easy step.

Complete deafness with the inability to communicate by any means by signing is as a problem that reasonable, compassionate, humane people can think is fundamentally incompatible with the practice of surgery.

You already said that; I fairly agreed with you. Can you explain what does a medicine doctor do? I'd like to be a doctor that can treat people and can do surgery if necessary. What is that kind of specialty called?

I understood the fact that it's very difficult for a deaf person who want to be a surgeon and does not have the ability to communicate. I hope what Night said is true.

 

[Habeed2]

Have you ever considered the consequences of your choice on other people?

If you killed even one extra person because you're deaf, you'd completely undo everything you ever accomplished. That's why I don't think you should be a surgeon, even if it's possible, even if one person has done it before.

 

[asmallchild]

Have you ever considered the consequences of your choice on other people?

If you killed even one extra person because you're deaf, you'd completely undo everything you ever accomplished. That's why I don't think you should be a surgeon, even if it's possible, even if one person has done it before.

You should at least make the effort to change your name. Enjoy the 2nd ban. 🙄

 

[DEAF]

Have you ever considered the consequences of your choice on other people?

If you killed even one extra person because you're deaf, you'd completely undo everything you ever accomplished. That's why I don't think you should be a surgeon, even if it's possible, even if one person has done it before.

So, you're saying I can easily kill a person because I am deaf? Please, it's not just I am "deaf", it's the communication and hearing. I have a deaf friend who is a beast at reading lips and speaking, and people can easily understand him. Get your facts straight.
You are even not in medical school, so don't think you know everything about deaf community, or surgery.

 

[Habe3d]

So, you're saying I can easily kill a person because I am deaf? Please, it's not just I am "deaf", it's the communication and hearing..

Yes. You can't listen to someone's heart or lungs to hear murmurs and pneumonia. You can't listen to what they say and catch all sorts of subtle things in their voice that indicate depression, dishonesty, fear, ect. Interpretor can't tell you these things.

You can't sign anything because both your hands have to be holding surgical instruments. You have to be able to talk and ask for what you want. You can't look up from what you are doing to see what others are saying either.

Sometimes a surgeon has to stop someone bleeding to death RIGHT NOW. They have to be like "scalpel, retractor, hemostat" calling out each instrument they need and using them. If they need help, they need to say something like "page Dr. ____ or "get _____ in here stat, I'm losing him". How often does this happen? Doesn't matter if it's rare, a surgeon might do 10,000 surgeries or more in his career. If you killed just one more of those 10,000 patients I'd say you don't deserve to be a surgeon. Period.

 

[Smurfette]

Yes. You can't listen to someone's heart or lungs to hear murmurs and pneumonia. You can't listen to what they say and catch all sorts of subtle things in their voice that indicate depression, dishonesty, fear, ect. Interpretor can't tell you these things.

You can't sign anything because both your hands have to be holding surgical instruments. You have to be able to talk and ask for what you want. You can't look up from what you are doing to see what others are saying either.

Sometimes a surgeon has to stop someone bleeding to death RIGHT NOW. They have to be like "scalpel, retractor, hemostat" calling out each instrument they need and using them. If they need help, they need to say something like "page Dr. ____ or "get _____ in here stat, I'm losing him". How often does this happen? Doesn't matter if it's rare, a surgeon might do 10,000 surgeries or more in his career. If you killed just one more of those 10,000 patients I'd say you don't deserve to be a surgeon. Period.

The essence of this post is true. Patients can bleed out in seconds. Crucial structures can be cut in a second. Being able to communicate effectively and immediately can be life or death to your patient.

Also, (my random thoughts here) an interpreter with you 24/7 is not always going to work out as planned...locker rooms, call rooms, bathrooms, examining patients, etc. are all places your pager will go off and you need to respond ASAP or some patients are just not keen on allowing "extra" people in rooms (especially during gyne or rectal exams). Rooms can be crowded (codes--hard to sign or see someone signing amidst 25 other people) or with multiple conversations going on that the interpreter will have to sift through and guess which conversation is most relevant to you. It will frustrate you, and there's really not a good 'fix' to that type of situation (although, depending on what specialty you go into, it can be less problematic).

DEAF, you are still in high school. Get good grades. Go to college. If you are still interested in medicine, take the MCAT, and get into med school. Do rotations, and see what you like. It's hard to understand how broad a field "medicine" is until you realize how diverse all the specialties are. You may find that communicating in the OR is too big a barrier for you to choose surgery as your career path, but that depends on your hearing/speaking/lip reading/communicating ability--the lesser the ability, the bigger the barrier. Most people change their minds on what they want to do over the course of all of these "stages", and usually multiple times. You have a long time and a long road to go down before you get to the point of actually starting surgical training. Is your deafness so severe that being a surgeon is not feasible? Maybe (it sounds like it based on your statements, but it's hard for people on anonymous internet sites to really know for sure your abilities); it all boils down to your ability to communicate once you get to that point in your life.

In short, give it 5-10 years. Take it one step at a time. See where you're at and what your goals are. Don't worry too much about it now as a lot will change as you finish HS, go to college, etc.

 

[Northern Light]

The essence of this post is true. Patients can bleed out in seconds. Crucial structures can be cut in a second. Being able to communicate effectively and immediately can be life or death to your patient.

Also, (my random thoughts here) an interpreter with you 24/7 is not always going to work out as planned...locker rooms, call rooms, bathrooms, examining patients, etc. are all places your pager will go off and you need to respond ASAP or some patients are just not keen on allowing "extra" people in rooms (especially during gyne or rectal exams). Rooms can be crowded (codes--hard to sign or see someone signing amidst 25 other people) or with multiple conversations going on that the interpreter will have to sift through and guess which conversation is most relevant to you. It will frustrate you, and there's really not a good 'fix' to that type of situation (although, depending on what specialty you go into, it can be less problematic).

DEAF, you are still in high school. Get good grades. Go to college. If you are still interested in medicine, take the MCAT, and get into med school. Do rotations, and see what you like. It's hard to understand how broad a field "medicine" is until you realize how diverse all the specialties are. You may find that communicating in the OR is too big a barrier for you to choose surgery as your career path, but that depends on your hearing/speaking/lip reading/communicating ability--the lesser the ability, the bigger the barrier. Most people change their minds on what they want to do over the course of all of these "stages", and usually multiple times. You have a long time and a long road to go down before you get to the point of actually starting surgical training. Is your deafness so severe that being a surgeon is not feasible? Maybe (it sounds like it based on your statements, but it's hard for people on anonymous internet sites to really know for sure your abilities); it all boils down to your ability to communicate once you get to that point in your life.

In short, give it 5-10 years. Take it one step at a time. See where you're at and what your goals are. Don't worry too much about it now as a lot will change as you finish HS, go to college, etc.

This is constructive feedback I'm talking about. This shoving and shutting out possibilities to get ahead of another is a flaw in the medical system amongst students, residents and attendings. I'm glad someone had the decency to say something constructive.

 

[MossPoh]

You should at least make the effort to change your name. Enjoy the 2nd ban. 🙄

That is what we call commitment to one's beliefs. 😉

This is turning into one of my top threads to read. I'm enjoying it. It is kind of like a medical maury.

 

[DEAF]

I see the fact that a deaf person being a surgeon takes a lot of disvantages such as inability to communicate. I got it.
I've seen this sayings again and again in this thread, so it seems it is probably impossible for a deaf person to be a surgeon.
I will ask this same question again when I go to college and are still interested in medinice.

Thank you all, guys. Let's leave this thread idling if needed unless you have some news, feel free to bump.

 

[howelljolly]

You already said that; I fairly agreed with you. Can you explain what does a medicine doctor do? I'd like to be a doctor that can treat people and can do surgery if necessary. What is that kind of specialty called?
.

Medicine in a nutshell .... history and physical.... make a diagnosis.... confirm the diagnosis with labs/images.... treat the disease (with medication, or minor procedures)... causes are metabolic, infections, toxicity, cancer, autoimmune, messed up physiology in a particular organ.... then, follow up. Consult a specialist if needed. Consult a surgeon if its a "surgical disease".... usually meaning an anatomy problem.

This has nothing to do with hearing ability - Youre thinking like every other high school student who daydreams about what kind of doctor they're going to be.

Sounds like you want to diagnose and treat the patient, and if needed, take your patient to the OR yourself for a "definitive cure" This type of thing doesnt happen nowadays, with multiple specialties, and too much to know. Family Practice does general medicine, and some minor procedures if needed. However, ENT, urology, OB/gyn do "treat people and do surgery if necessary". While they restrict themselves to the head/neck or to the pelvis, they do treat patients medically, and do surgery if needed.

When I was your age, I wanted to do neurosurgery... then trauma surgery... then neurosurgery at a trauma-1 hospital.... Then within the last year Ive actually done a lot of surgery. Now, I'll be happy if I never have to do surgery again.

 

[Winged Scapula]

Sounds like you want to diagnose and treat the patient, and if needed, take your patient to the OR yourself for a "definitive cure" This type of thing doesnt happen nowadays, with multiple specialties, and too much to know.

This will vary with the culture of the hospital you trained in.

Where I trained surgeons DID medically treat patients. Pancreatitis, diverticulitis, vasculitic ulcers, anal fistula, inflammatory bowel disease, fissures, ascites in transplant patients, etc. while having surgical options,, are also often treated medically by surgeons. This varies with hospital and with attendings (I had one who wanted all diverticulitis and IBD admitted to colorectal surgery and others who didn't want any patient who didn't need an operation).

But you are right in that young people tend to have a very broad view of medicine and assume they can do it all, which just doesn't happen much in our environment. When I was in HS I wanted to be either a neurosurgeon (of course I called it a brain surgeon) or a psychiatrist.

 

[howelljolly]

When I was in HS I wanted to be either a neurosurgeon (of course I called it a brain surgeon) or a psychiatrist.

😛 Before I wanted to be a neurosurgeon, I wanted to be a psychiatrist. Then I thought... psychiatry.... well, I want to be a surgeon... presto! neurosurgeon.

 

[Leforte]

Despite some of the thoughts and comments on this thread, I still stand by my direct observations.

Yes, as surgeons we deal with emergent situations that require immediate communication that is often verbal. OBs, too, have complicated deliveries that require immediate conversion to c-section, and depend on hearing the toco monitor, etc - but I saw what a deaf OB/GYN did in these situations. If the toco/fetal HR monitor was slowing down, the nurse/interpreter tapped the resident who looked at the trace on the screen. She had this special stethoscope, too, that displayed wave forms of the sounds that we would hear. Let's face it, the first time I heard a murmur, I didn't have a clue as to what I was hearing. I was told what it was, memorized the sound and that was it. This resident was told that this pt had a murmur, she looked at the special trace on the stethoscope screen and viola, memorized the visual trace to what we were hearing. As far as communication in the OR, when crap happens, it is usually the surgeon telling others what to do - yes we ask questions, and communicate with the anesthesiologist/scrub/etc but the 5 seconds it takes to look up to get the sign translation is often not the make or break point of an operation.

In regards to an earlier comment about cochlear implants and other devices - if the OP is deaf, he/she already knows about this and has made a decision if this is what they do or do not. I have never pushed one on a deaf person or family member. They have their pluses and minuses. If implanted early (age 1), CI children are indistinguishable from hearing children. This difference widens as the age of the implanted person becomes older. Getting one in your teens/older does restore some hearing function, but the ability to distinguish certain types of sounds and communicate as easily is reduced. But this thread is not about CIs. It is about obstacles for someone who is deaf.

I hate to bring this up, as I'm not a misogynist, but it wasn't long ago that women were pushed away from surgery (which still happens) due to misconceptions. Or minorities prevented from entering medical school. Clearly those nay-sayers were wrong.

Yes, training a surgeon who is deaf has a lot of challenges. But if that person gets through the training, they will have experienced times that they felt overwhelmed, and times when the felt in control - as all surgical trainees do. A deaf person has just as much common sense as any hearing person does, too. If they felt that as an independent fully qualified surgeon, taking trauma call or other highly acute fields that demand certain skills and immediate communication would place anyone at risk, I am sure they would refrain from that in practice. I am also confident that any credentialing board at a hospital would have some process to ensure pt safety for the procedures that a surgeon sought privileges for.

The ability to operate is not contingent on someone's ability to hear. We all have surgeons in our hospitals that hear fine, but who we wouldn't let touch us if we were bleeding in the streets.

The good thing about people who overcome barriers is that they provide a path for others to follow. I don't claim to know what a deaf person should do to overcome them, nor do I exclaim that because of a disability they should never even attempt to reach their goals.

If there are residency program directors or department chairmen/women on this forum, they can make their decision on who to accept and train. They know the risks and obstacles. But they can also choose to be leaders and take a chance with enough preparation and a high degree of oversight.

 

[southerncomfort]

The attending I had on Psych is deaf and has a cochlear implant. He started out as ENT, with gen surg internship and two years ENT residency. He said that he found it difficult to operate effectively due to the constant background noise in the OR--people in and out, monitors, everyone in masks, etc. He made the choice to leave ENT and switched to a Psych residency. I think it can certainly be done, but it does have difficulties inherent to the environment.

 

[Pilot Doc]

The ability to operate is not contingent on someone's ability to hear. We all have surgeons in our hospitals that hear fine, but who we wouldn't let touch us if we were bleeding in the streets.

Your second statement has no bearing on, and in no way supports the truth of your first statement. Hearing, like sight, is a permissive factor in becoming a surgeon. It's presence does not affect performance but it's absence certainly does.

 

[Licoricestick]

The attending I had on Psych is deaf and has a cochlear implant. He started out as ENT, with gen surg internship and two years ENT residency. He said that he found it difficult to operate effectively due to the constant background noise in the OR--people in and out, monitors, everyone in masks, etc. He made the choice to leave ENT and switched to a Psych residency. I think it can certainly be done, but it does have difficulties inherent to the environment.

I confess that I've found this thread rather interesting...for many reasons (including a certain banned person doing this )!

But here's my $0.02

I have moderate hearing loss in one ear, mild in the other. Hearing aid in the ear with mod loss. As far as I know it is congenital, cause unknown. I'm training in anaesthesia. I find that I do have trouble in theatre. I have trouble identifying that someone is speaking. Although I do not formally lip read my understanding of what is being said is significantly improved by seeing someone's face as they talk. So masks do make life harder for me. However, I've also had trouble on ward rounds where my senior has tried to tell me something by standing behind me and whispering in my left ear (the one with the hearing aid!) and then wondering later why I didn't hear her!

Despite all that, can I echo the comments earlier to the OP - don't rule things out now, things change. Work towards what you think you want to do and see what happens.

Medical jobs are ones where it can be difficult to decide what you like before you actually experience what the day to day job entails. I went into medicine swearing I would never be a general practitioner (family medicine in US-speak), thought about cardiology, then general medicine, then rural general practitioner, then anaesthetist, then rural general surgeon, then anaesthetist, then a brief delusion about being an orthopaedic surgeon... and finally settled on anaesthetist. Along the way I discovered that I am more hands on than I thought, but I don't think like a surgeon does (hard to explain that one any further without insulting pretty much everyone...so I'll just leave it at that), nor do I have the patience to be a physician and see someone back in 3-6 months time to see if the medication change has done anything (to me digoxin is an irritating drug cause it takes 6hrs to work!). And to top it all off - ultimately some of my decision to do anaesthesia is related to having some fantastic, enthusiastic, keen to teach and let me do things supervisors as a student - which has little relationship to anything I've mentioned in this paragraph .

So DEAF - study hard, and see what happens. Best of luck.

 

[howelljolly]

I confess that I've found this thread rather interesting...for many reasons (including a certain banned person doing this )!

But here's my $0.02

I have moderate hearing loss in one ear, mild in the other. Hearing in the ear with mod loss. As far as I know it is congenital, cause unknown. I'm training in anaesthesua. I find that I do have trouble in theatre. I have trouble identifying that someone is speaking. Although I do not formally lip read my understanding of what is being said is significantly improved by seeing someone's face as they talk. So masks do make life harder for me. However, I've also had trouble on ward rounds where my senior has tried to tell me something by standing behind me and whispering in my left ear (the one with the hearing aid!) and then wondering later why I didn't hear her!

Despite all that, can I echo the comments earlier to the OP - don't rule things out now, things change. Work towards what you think you want to do and see what happens.

Medical jobs are ones where it can be difficult to decide what you like before you actually experience what the day to day job entails. I went into medicine swearing I would never be a general practitioner (family medicine in US-speak), thought about cardiology, then general medicine, then rural general practitioner, then anaesthetist, then rural general surgeon, then anaesthetist, then a brief delusion about being an orthopaedic surgeon... and finally settled on anaesthetist. Along the way I discovered that I am more hands on than I thought, but I don't think like a surgeon does (hard to explain that one any further without insulting pretty much everyone...so I'll just leave it at that), nor do I have the patience to be a physician and see someone back in 3-6 months time to see if the medication change has done anything (to me digoxin is an irritating drug cause it takes 6hrs to work!). And to top it all off - ultimately some of my decision to do anaesthesia is related to having some fantastic, enthusiastic, keen to teach and let me do things supervisors as a student - which has little relationship to anything I've mentioned in this paragraph .

So DEAF - study hard, and see what happens. Best of luck.

well your 2 cents cashed out to a million bucks in subtle points that are often ignored.

 

[deleted77919]

…

 

[Northern Light]

Even getting through medical school would be quite the challenge. Aside from difficulties with the physical exam which have been mentioned (auscultation, etc) at my school I'm not sure how you'd get the history done. I spend basically the entirety of every clinic day (and a lot of time on the floors as well) on the translator phone. Spanish and Mandarin/Cantonese/Fukienese/Fuzhou would take me a lot further in clinics than English does. I can't imagine how complicated this could get with a signing translator. Sign to your translator, who is on the translator phone, language line then translates into Fuzhou, the patient then replys in Fuzhou etc. Maybe there's a better work around, but if not, it would definitely be frustrating.

True that you might find it 'frustrating'. For me, it's part of my routine to work with interpreters, so I don't perceive it as 'frustrating' as you describe it. Once people actually get direct experience working with colleagues who use sign language interpreters, it's not as 'frustrating' as they though it'd be. It's easy to be critical without going through the process because everyone starts with the 'but how is that possible'.

Using sign language interpreters are different from spoken language interpreters in the sense that they interpret simultaneously as the person speaks. So there isn't much of a lag time as you would see with spoken language. My interpreter has a lag time of short phrases (2-5 words) which isn't a lot versus spoken language interpreters where you have to pause and wait until the translator is finished speaking. When I say she has a lag time of 2-5 words, I'm talking about medical jargon between colleagues.

 

[Northern Light]

The attending I had on Psych is deaf and has a cochlear implant. He started out as ENT, with gen surg internship and two years ENT residency. He said that he found it difficult to operate effectively due to the constant background noise in the OR--people in and out, monitors, everyone in masks, etc. He made the choice to leave ENT and switched to a Psych residency. I think it can certainly be done, but it does have difficulties inherent to the environment.

Here you have a surgical program who believed this person could do it. So it is possible.

 

[dilated]

Here you have a surgical program who believed this person could do it. So it is possible.

Yes, but this was someone who was functional with a cochlear implant. I don't think that's really the argument, the issue is someone who can't hear at all. To me the solution of having an interpreter around 24/7 seems fraught with potential problems - what if you have a patient code in the SICU at 4am? Is the interpreter sleeping in the call room with you? But there's a lot of general surgery positions in the country so I'm not surprised if there are a few willing to try to make it work.

 

[Northern Light]

Yes, but this was someone who was functional with a cochlear implant. I don't think that's really the argument, the issue is someone who can't hear at all. To me the solution of having an interpreter around 24/7 seems fraught with potential problems - what if you have a patient code in the SICU at 4am? Is the interpreter sleeping in the call room with you? But there's a lot of general surgery positions in the country so I'm not surprised if there are a few willing to try to make it work.

The severity of one's hearing does not determine their 'function'. I don't have a cochlear implant, but that doesn't meant I'm not functional. And -yes the interpreter is on call with me.

 

[Pilot Doc]

where you have to pause and wait until the translator is finished speaking. When I say she has a lag time of 2-5 words, I'm talking about medical jargon between colleagues.

How does it work out when there are no signs for something and the interpreter needs to spell it out. (e.g. Osler-Webber-Rendu syndrome) With my very limited knowledge of ASL, that strikes me as the biggest problem with signing in the OR.

 

[Northern Light]

How does it work out when there are no signs for something and the interpreter needs to spell it out. (e.g. Osler-Webber-Rendu syndrome) With my very limited knowledge of ASL, that strikes me as the biggest problem with signing in the OR.

Acronyms, abbreviations, coming up with new signs which is developed during the 1st two years of academics, fingerspelling quickly, etc. We get really creative with problem solving and it works out in the end.

 

[Licoricestick]

The severity of one's hearing does not determine their 'function'. I don't have a cochlear implant, but that doesn't mean I'm not functional. And -yes the interpreter is on call with me.

Well said! In actual fact Northern Light with an interpreter could be more functional than I am despite the fact that I have (I assume) significantly more hearing (see my previous post). Especially in an environment with a lot of background noise. A sign interpreter isn't "drowned out", people rarely get between two people furiously waving their hands at each other and you can sign across distances (signing across a busy 4 lane road is much more effective than a hearing person yelling).

Hearing aids, very sadly, are NOT equivalent to 'glasses for ears' and their benefit can be quickly lost when background noise increases or directionality is important (yes, even the very expensive ones - my midrange single hearing aid cost me $AUD4000, approx $USD2800).

Function is about getting the job done, not about whether the job is done in a conventional manner or not. What's more annoying - a short lag due to someone signing, or a slightly deaf person spending half the ward round asking the consultant/attending to repeat themselves? If Northern Light and I were both on a noisy round with a softly spoken consultant - Northern would probably be much better thought of at the end of the round than I would (and, provided it was an experienced medical interpreter - much less likely to misinterpret the orders!).

Northern - thanks for bringing a much needed deaf perspective to this discussion.👍

 

[AuDwannabeMD]

As an audiologist, I recommend that you go see your local audiologist and speech pathologist to see what accommodations would be beneficial to you. I think you'll find that there's more than what you think. Good luck with everything and don't give up on a dream.

 

[sarahl86]

My best friend is Deaf, and one hell of a nurse. GTFOver yourselves if you think this person is any less capable than you would be as physicians. There are ways to work with a disability.

I'm shocked at the level of ignorance I'm seeing by some people.

 

[scube]

My best friend is Deaf, and one hell of a nurse. GTFOver yourselves if you think this person is any less capable than you would be as physicians. There are ways to work with a disability.

I'm shocked at the level of ignorance I'm seeing by some people.

does your nurse friend work in the OR, directly managing patient care. if so please let us know what some of the modifications to their regimen are. if not it isn't quite equivalent.

 

[smq123]

My best friend is Deaf, and one hell of a nurse. GTFOver yourselves if you think this person is any less capable than you would be as physicians. There are ways to work with a disability.

I'm shocked at the level of ignorance I'm seeing by some people.

🙄 Does your best friend work in an OR where she has to wear a mask at all times? The OR environment is VERY difficult for deaf people in that a) people are wearing masks almost all the time, and b) there is a lot of "organized chaos," so it's not always possible to directly look at someone while talking to them.

 

[howelljolly]

My best friend is Deaf, and one hell of a nurse. GTFOver yourselves if you think this person is any less capable than you would be as physicians. There are ways to work with a disability.

I'm shocked at the level of ignorance I'm seeing by some people.

GTFOver yourself thinking that you or your friend is special. Im irritated by the shocking level of ignorance you have about what the average Joe thinks about people with surmountable disabilities such as deafness. Im also irritated by your shocking level of ignorance about how the techincal aspects of surgical procedure are taught.... Id est, with your hands in the field, your eyes in the field, and your mouth behind a mask.

And I'll have you know that your nurse friend has NEVER had to operate on a rupturing aortic aneurysm, or splenic rupture at 3am with his/her hands and eyes in the bloodbath, and the clinical professor's mouth behind a mask.

 

[howelljolly]

Sometime in the last 36 hours in the hospital, I worked with someone who had hearing aids. I cant remember if it was a doctor or a nurse or what...

whatever... Im ignorant.

 

[sarahl86]

does your nurse friend work in the OR, directly managing patient care. if so please let us know what some of the modifications to their regimen are. if not it isn't quite equivalent.

I would think that working as a shock trauma nurse in would count as more than a little chaotic, and yes, where they are wearing masks. She relies on hearing aids (she has bilateral sensorineural hearing loss - severe to profound but raised oral, so she can voice well and read lips) and interpreters, which the hospital readily provided. I venture to guess her hearing is better than the OP, but that is a moot point. Her co-workers are aware, know how to use the interpreters, and although it is still frustrating for her at times, she's doing what she loves.

And I'll have you know that your nurse friend has NEVER had to operate on a rupturing aortic aneurysm, or splenic rupture at 3am with his/her hands and eyes in the bloodbath, and the clinical professor's mouth behind a mask.

Thus why I said she's a nurse and not a doctor, but she's still pretty close to that "bloodbath". Several posts in here indicate that deafness is an insurmountable disability - that there is little or no way this kid could be a surgeon. This is the fact that I am arguing: it is challenging period to go through life as a Deaf person (Deaf = someone using ASL, culturally Deaf vs. deaf = having a hearing loss) and being expected to acclimate appropriately into society. The culture has a long history of oppression and negative perceptions by mainstream society much like struggles of ethnic minorities. But it has been done and can be done again. A major misconception is that only the Deaf person needs an interpreter, but the interpreter is just as much for the Deaf individual as the hearing people utilizing his/her services.

Gold star for you for learning how to operate on an aortic aneurysm. I am positive that there is a Deaf physician somewhere in this country that learned how to do the same exact thing. I have no doubt that with appropriate interpreters and the hightened visual/spatial awareness that Deaf people have by virtue of the language they use, they will be just as able to learn surgical procedures. You didn't learn how to do a procedure just by hearing what the clinical professor said: you WATCHED it as well. Don't forget that point. The part that is spoken by the professor can be spoken while the Deaf person looks off to an interpreter in a corner, out of the surgical field if need be.

I know the "average Joe" has no idea about Deaf Culture even existing, but I would expect a little more understanding from someone training to become a physician - someone who should demonstrate necessary sensitivity to the needs of others, because afterall, that should be a primary reason you entered this field in the first place. As for the person you worked with: did you actually look at them when you talked to them? You are aware that at best, lip-reading is approx. 60% accurate and if you look away they're going to miss what you just said? Are they someone who uses ASL? Its very different when you compare someone who grew up profoundly deaf and does not use spoken language to communicate versus someone who does with the assistance of hearing aids. The former situation is what is being brought into question. Just because you talked to them doesn't mean you understand their struggles or culture, either.

 

[Smurfette]

actually, if you had read the thread closely, you would see that no one is objecting to a deaf person being a surgeon or a doctor in general. The vast majority of people don't think that a deaf person cannot be a doctor, because other than being able to hear, there is not any other difference between that person and someone who hears.

They, however, feel that barriers discussed by the OP (virtually no hearing even with hearing aids, incapable of lip reading, need for personal assistant/signer at all times, etc.) make it exceedingly difficult to undergo surgical training due to the difficulty communicating with the individual. Other than a clear difficulty matching into a program willing to make appropriate accommodations, and then finding a practice also willing to make such accommodations (which despite ADA, would be difficult under the current match system), communicating in the operating room environment, especially under more high-pressure situations, would be VERY difficult for someone with these barriers, and thus the reason why surgery doesn't sound feasible in this case. Obviously, we do not know true details of the person and are not audiologists.

And a trauma nurse and surgeon are two different things.

 

[sarahl86]

actually, if you had read the thread closely, you would see that no one is objecting to a deaf person being a surgeon or a doctor in general.

Three people early on in this thread have posted otherwise. My argument is directed towards them. Several individuals have stated they would find this person just as capable as a hearing doctor 👍

They, however, feel that barriers discussed by the OP (virtually no hearing even with hearing aids, incapable of lip reading, need for personal assistant/signer at all times, etc.) make it exceedingly difficult to undergo surgical training due to the difficulty communicating with the individual.

Difficult? Absolutely. Costly? You bet your ***. I acknowledge that, however there is a legal obligation for programs to provide interpreting services. ADA's clause of "undue hardship" is primarily a matter of financial difficulties for private medical practices and businesses, however does not apply to large instututions like UCLA or Harvard as they have the means to provide an interpreter. Of course, programs will likely avoid such an applicant but an interesting fact is that of the three Deaf MDs I am aware of, all of them are employed by academic institutions including Yale, Princeton, and Penn State.

And a trauma nurse and surgeon are two different things.

I agree, and I never claimed them to be one in the same. However it is an example of a Deaf person successfully working in a similar enough environment with reasonable accomodations being made for her.

 

[docontheweb]

DEAF, don't let anyone tell you it can't/shouldn't be done. There are many deaf doctors: FP, an ob/gyn who works with sign interpreters *and operates*, an IM who attends residents with interpreters, radiology, pathology, pediatrics, psych. It depends on you, not other people.

 

[seijiseimura84]

interesting to read what has been discussed here
i was diagnosed , few months ago, as auditory neuropathy and conductive hearing loss at the right ear still investigating for the cause
my problem is more on the inability to understand speech especially in noisy enviroment,
ive been doing in orthopaedic before for couple of few months, unfortunately, because i often does not take the superior instruction clearly, i choose to quit and go for pathology department which is lack of communication
so far, i did well in pathology, but i never enjoy it. I feel bored and the whole day i was like a zombie
I dont know what future lies for me....as i enjoy clinical work so much , at the same time, i have no confidence to interact to people

there are many form of hearing impairement....depends on severity, some still can works in cliunical work...some are unable