Debt after funded vs. non-funded programs

[myelin]

I'd like to know what kind of debt that people are taking on in funded vs. non-funded PhD programs in clinical psychology. After speaking with a faculty member today, they informed me that they left their PhD program with $0 debt with respect to tuition and fees. How common is this? Then, there are programs that are non-funded that cost upwards of $100k before even taking interest and living expenses into consideration.

I'm not asking for disclosure of your personal financial situation (unless you care to share that information publicly), rather I'm looking for a general idea of what to expect and what is common out there in the programs.

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[erg923]

Mostly depends on the geographic region you are in and your lifestyle, and if you have debt from undergrad. Obviously you cant live on 15k per year in Boston, San Fran, or New York, but you probably can just fine in Kansas. There are some articles referring average student debt somewhere, but I don't have it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

There have been some decent articles that APA put out in regard to this topic. I'm sure someone can post them to get it started.

 

[Ollie123]

Zero thus far, don't expect it too change. I do have some savings I'll be dipping into over the course of grad school though. Not much though.

Alot of it depends on where you are (as was stated above). My area is pretty cheap, especially considering its Florida which prior to moving here I always thought was extremely expensive. Guess it depends on where in FL you are The rest probably depends on your situation. Even in a funded program if you're supporting kids chances are you need some loans unless the spouse is raking it in. If you're single, it can be quite livable provided you're willing to live like a grad student and not a rock star

I only looked at funded programs, and for the most part, the students I spoke to were coming out with either none or very little (e.g. a few thousand) in debt.

 

[Thrak]

My PhD program will be fully-funded with a stipend. Money for living expenses will be coming from family (my mom, and my wife, specifically).

I don't anticipate taking out any loans during the process, and starting in year 2, my wife's salary should keep us pretty comfortable.

Though honestly, aside from transportation costs and money for food, I don't plan on spending much. Maybe a PS3 sometime next year, that's about it.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I'm the only one in my cohort who isn't on external funding or scholarship, but I have a teaching fellowship of about $17,000 a year. I work a LOT of hours for that but that's worth being debt-free. I have savings that I've dipped into because I've had to move three times since getting here, but other than that I've been fine. Mom comes into town and buys me groceries every couple of months.

 

[JockNerd]

Fully funded program, no debt accrued or anticipated and I've managed to save up a pretty decent amount of money so far, too. I had no undergrad debt, though.

 

[myelin]

Alright, thanks for the replies. So it does sound like having $0 or minimal debt is attainable in a funded program. I'm single with no children so my expenses are just to keep me alive and entertained every once in a while.

 

[Neuro-Dr]

The last article I have seen on the topic was the Norcross one in the American Psychologist from 2003. It was about PsyD programs, but the numbers for PhD average debt were in there. If memory serves me, the average PsyD was $53K and PhD was $18K. Consider that the average length for completion of PhD was 1 year longer (6.3 to 5.3 years) so you could consider that either as one more year of earning money or a lower per year average.

 

[elite1]

As most PsyDs pay $24K a year just for tuition (let alone room, board, etc), I really doubt that Norcross article is correct

 

[Neuro-Dr]

Happy Reading! It is dated from a 2001 data collection, all funding sources are listed for all types of PsyD programs. If there is a more current source I don't know of one. There was an 89% return rate for all PsyD programs and a 97% return rate for all PhD programs. I guess I'm not sure what you mean by "correct" all schools can easily report loan and financial assist data for their students.

http://www.liunet.edu/cwis/cwp/clas/psych/doctoral/psyd.pdf

 

[Neuro-Dr]

Here is a more recent SURVEY study from the APA:
http://research.apa.org/des03.html

"Clinical PsyD recipients faced the highest debt levels, with a median of $90,000, compared with $50,000 for clinical PhDs and $21,500 for PhDs in research subfields. That difference may be due to the fact that PsyD students were more likely than PhD candidates to tap student loans—55 percent versus 19 percent."

This means:

PhD average debt went from $22K to $50K - increase of $38K/disparity of $32K
PsyD average debt went from $54K to $90K - increase of $36K/disparity of $40K

Perhaps this looks closer to your experience.

 

[myelin]

Here is a more recent SURVEY study from the APA:
http://research.apa.org/des03.html

"Clinical PsyD recipients faced the highest debt levels, with a median of $90,000, compared with $50,000 for clinical PhDs and $21,500 for PhDs in research subfields. That difference may be due to the fact that PsyD students were more likely than PhD candidates to tap student loans—55 percent versus 19 percent."

This means:

PhD average debt went from $22K to $50K - increase of $38K/disparity of $32K
PsyD average debt went from $54K to $90K - increase of $36K/disparity of $40K

Perhaps this looks closer to your experience.

That's a great resource - thank you.

Here is a chart that I found helpful regarding the amount of debt that newly awarded PhDs in psychology assumed in 2003. It should be noted that only those PhDs who reported acquiring debt related to graduate education are included. It may help to right click - rotate clockwise as the table is printed vertically.

http://research.apa.org/des03_t10.pdf

 

[73BARMYPgsp]

PGSP. 3 years of loans, HPSP for the last 2 years. (Books, tuition and stipend--although the 5th year tuition is pretty low). About $90,000 in loans.

 

[JockNerd]

I'd like to see these data split at a more meaningful level. A nonfunded PhD will still run a student as much debt as a pro. school, and Baylor or Rutgers grads shouldn't be incurring massive debt.

 

[Ollie123]

Good point - many of the prof schools offer both a PhD and a PsyD, and we all know what outliers can do to a mean The "research subfield" number is probably a bit more realistic, though I don't know how research subfield is defined.

One other thing from that study that caught my eye...it sounds like there is actually an appreciable number of people who take unpaid post-docs. Not a lot, but still - I thought it was virtually unheard of. Why are people taking unpaid ones? Is it to stay in one location?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm thinking geographic restriction.

 

[JockNerd]

One other thing from that study that caught my eye...it sounds like there is actually an appreciable number of people who take unpaid post-docs. Not a lot, but still - I thought it was virtually unheard of. Why are people taking unpaid ones? Is it to stay in one location?

T4C is right... unpaid post-docs for licensure hours...

 

[Pterion]

I'd like to know what kind of debt that people are taking on in funded vs. non-funded PhD programs in clinical psychology. After speaking with a faculty member today, they informed me that they left their PhD program with $0 debt with respect to tuition and fees. How common is this? Then, there are programs that are non-funded that cost upwards of $100k before even taking interest and living expenses into consideration.

I'm not asking for disclosure of your personal financial situation (unless you care to share that information publicly), rather I'm looking for a general idea of what to expect and what is common out there in the programs.

About 2 years ago (I think) I posted that my MD would cost less than half what my PsyD did. As the economy nosedived and the state in which I lived continued to fund vice over convalescence, the tuition to med school went up.

I just had my last day of med school and my current summary shows that the MD as cost me 62% the cost of my unfunded PsyD. I really don't feel like posting the numbers - I would rather celebrate right now than cry.

 

[JockNerd]

Good point - many of the prof schools offer both a PhD and a PsyD, and we all know what outliers can do to a mean The "research subfield" number is probably a bit more realistic, though I don't know how research subfield is defined.

Well, I didn't necessarily mean professional schools. A university PhD program that's not properly funded will raise that university-based PhD debt category. The reason I bring it up is that data like this has been used on the board in the past to say "look, university-based PhD students go into debt too!" which I don't think is a good representation of the facts. So, if unfunded university-based programs account for nearly all those big debts in that category, which I think is probably the case, then it indicates that funded PhDs are still mostly getting out completely or nearly completely free of debt.

 

[erg923]

hmmm...Psy.D to M.D. What specialty are you going into...Psych? How was the transition?

 

[EquestriAnn]

I'm in non-clinical psych and I certainly wasn't planning to take out a loan, but this thread got me nervous!

 

[deleted176373]

About 2 years ago (I think) I posted that my MD would cost less than half what my PsyD did. As the economy nosedived and the state in which I lived continued to fund vice over convalescence, the tuition to med school went up.

I just had my last day of med school and my current summary shows that the MD as cost me 62% the cost of my unfunded PsyD. I really don't feel like posting the numbers - I would rather celebrate right now than cry.

That's why I went the route I did. The ability to graduate debt free made this too good of a deal to pass up. I might have to give up six years to the military after school but I would be stupid not to. It sucks being poor, did that as an undergrad, no thanks... I'll take the money from Uncle Sam.

Mark

 

[Pterion]

hmmm...Psy.D to M.D. What specialty are you going into...Psych? How was the transition?

Strangely, psychiatry held little interest for me. That had some to do with my med school having a weak ~iatry department and a lot to do with me not enjoying being a psychologist in a this area. It was my own fault for not doing more homework on 1.) more psychologist-friendly regions of the country, ie, NOT the south and 2.) looking at how long I could personally tolerate the extended and variable reinforcement of the work.

Transition was surprisingly easy. Med school was several orders of magnitude more intense than grad school, but I am not sure I can say harder. Just much different. And I can't tell you what a great advantage it was already having experience with Axis II issues

I'm starting residency in radiology, which on its face appears to be in stark contrast to psychology with regards to human contact. I am happy to tell you that the program in which I will be doing my residency has extensive patient contact and interpersonal contact b/n professionals.

My apologies for the hijack. We now return to our original discussion.....

 

[Neuro-Dr]

Norcross and others have indicated that their perception of the disparity between debt load in PhD and PsyD is directly related to the percentage of funded students. Since PhD students average 88 credits and PsyD 100 and the average cost per credit was comparable, it would be hard to imagine any other way. I guess, my advice to anyone considering an un-funded program is that the data suggests you'll get out a year early and you should continue to live poor those first few years and overpay your loans. I paid an extra $500 per month on mine and it made all the difference to get out of those loans quickly.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

....you'll get out a year early and you should continue to live poor those first few years and overpay your loans. I paid an extra $500 per month on mine and it made all the difference to get out of those loans quickly.

I've heard this from a number of professionals who left school with loans, and they said it made all of the difference in the world. They picked up extra assessments and cases on the side to cover the extra payments. Compound interest definitely works both ways.

 

[zeraldaviperia]

I want to be a clinical psychologist. I am just starting to look into graduate schools in general. Cost is an issue for me. What are some colleges that do fund their students? I would love to look at their websites. How can you tell if a college is funded or unfunded? But even if it is funded what about out of state tuition it costs as much to go to a state university outside of California as if does a private school in California beause of out of state costs? Or am I missing something? Do they fund those out of state fees too?

 

[erg923]

Almost all university based Ph.D programs are fully funded and include full tuition remission. They only Ph.D i know that aren't are Columbia and some of the other NYC city schools and University of North Texas. There are no out of state issues for funded ph.d programs. Stipends range from 10,000/annum to 20,000/annum. uUsually somewhere between those 2. Stipend amounts are generally mentioned on the program's website somewhere. Most Psy.D programs are not funded. Baylor and Rutgers Psy.D do have some funding available, but i do not have stats.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Almost all university based Ph.D programs are fully funded and include full tuition remission.

This can vary, as some don't guarantee full-funding for all years (though usually come through), and the total amounts can vary. In the end it will take some legwork to find out the details.

 

[JockNerd]

Almost all university based Ph.D programs are fully funded and include full tuition remission. They only Ph.D i know that aren't are Columbia and some of the other NYC city schools and University of North Texas. There are no out of state issues for funded ph.d programs.

Lots of PhD programs only fund partially (e.g. 1/2 tuition waiver).

How can you tell if a college is funded or unfunded?

Most psych dept web sites have a section called "full disclosure data" or "current student data" that tells you. As an example, here's the University of Montana's:
http://psychweb.psy.umt.edu/www/graduate_clinical_applicant.asp

 

[PhDshallsee]

Interesting there. I've got a full wavier, health insurance, dental insurance, and a stipend of over $20,000 with my fellowship. However, even people with TA/RAs and not fellowships get close to $17,000. And this is in a rather cheap area of the country. If I end up with debt, I'm just stupid...

Yet, I know someone outside of DC who gets less than $10,000 a year and has to pay for their tuition (1/3 i think). They ended up with more debt than they had in undergrad...

 

[WannaBeDrMe]

posted this on finaid board too but wanted to ask people within this thread...

any knowledge about stafford loans on a 2nd masters degree?

obviously, i'm shooting for a fully funded doctoral program but the numbers game suggests i need to apply to a few masters programs as well...

i had an assistanceship in my last program but took out some loans b/c of extensive travel to internship site (150 miles per day, 3-4 days week)...

any info available, starting to panic about money

 

[ny1020]

posted this on finaid board too but wanted to ask people within this thread...

any knowledge about stafford loans on a 2nd masters degree?

obviously, i'm shooting for a fully funded doctoral program but the numbers game suggests i need to apply to a few masters programs as well...

i had an assistanceship in my last program but took out some loans b/c of extensive travel to internship site (150 miles per day, 3-4 days week)...

any info available, starting to panic about money

I'm not an expert, but I have done some reading on this topic. I don't think the fact that it's a second masters makes a difference, the fact that you've taken out loans before does. If you've defaulted on a previous federal loan, then they won't lend to you again. And there's a lifetime max of $138,500 - no more than $65,500 can be in subsidized loans. The graduate limit includes loans for undergraduate study. So, I guess how much you can get in the future depends on how much you've already borrowed. Other than those issues, I don't think you need to worry about getting a federal loan.

 

[ClinicCase55]

Where I work, we only accept students that we intend to fund at 100%. That means tuition, insurance, fees, and a stipend. The stipend given to our students is VERY competitive, but can be difficult to live on in a major city if you want to live alone. Many of our students have roomates.

Some universities do not offer first year students funding. Instead it is up to the student to find and match with a professor who has funding. I would say this is rare, only because in PhD programs, we tend to accept people who would fit somewhere into our programs.

My suggestion would be to pick some PhD programs you are interested in based on your subject interest. Then look at the websites and find out what faculty are doing, the areas of research, what they teach, what they have published, etc. Then contact the ones you are really interested in.

When you contact them, don't send a generic email. Show that you have actually looked into what the faculty member is doing and how your interests fit into that big picture.
When I get emails from "potential" applicants who have taken a look at my expertise, I remember...and most of my collegues do as well. (I have seen battles over students! )

Good luck!