decision made :)

Getting into Med School is Hard? Not with BeMo.
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sunshower26

sunshower26

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thanks all! decision made.
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Hopkins for all the pros you listed.
 
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From what you said, it sounds like this is between Hopkins and Yale. You should go to the place with the best outcomes for what you want to do and where you would be the most happy. It sounds like you want to go to Hopkins the most (maybe you can negotiate for full tuition). You can achieve your goals at any of these schools. I would avoid stressful places with competitive atmospheres.
 
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sunshower26 said:
Hi everyone, trying to see if I can draw upon the collective wisdom and insight of SDN to help me make my decision and make an informed choice! I have been beyond lucky and privileged in this cycle, and I have narrowed my choices down to these few (crossed out Penn/Duke/NYU) in light of costs and personal preferences.

For a bit of context, I want to go into a competitive surgical specialty and will need research to do so, but I have taken a gap year and would like to refrain from doing a research year during med school. Looking for a program that's strong in the subspecialty (plastics) that will also allow for research incorporation and productivity during M1 and M2 years. Another important thing to me is strong support and mentoring during med school, and although I wouldn't necessarily need it, a bit of hand-holding would be nice!

I am also interested in foraying and working with health policy or public policy/public health and would like insight into which schools may help facilitate this the best!

Hopkins (about 80% tuition)

Pros
  • Prestige
  • Seems to have good mentoring
  • Research opportunities with faculty seem extensive (?)
  • Molecule structure
  • 1.5 preclinical so more time to be involved with extracurriculars and getting to know classmates/bonding
  • Curriculum with asynchronous lectures
  • P/F all four years
  • No AOA
  • Lots of support in the MD/DMV area
  • Lower COL
  • Legendary clinical training with a lot of responsibility given to students
  • Good anatomy training - one of the best surgical programs, starts day 1 as well as patient interaction
  • Diverse patient population!!! Ability to be confronted with health disparity issues - I really like the fact that Hopkins practices what they preach and has tangible impacts where it is needed the most
  • See very complex and diverse cases

Cons
  • Student class usually seems a bit younger, and I am not nontrad but have taken a gap year and would like maybe a bit older ?
  • Safety issues by being in Baltimore - although I recognize that being in an area where care is needed most requires this compromise
  • Baltimore quality of life
  • Student body seems less diverse?
  • Strained history between Hopkins and Baltimore (think Henrietta Lacks etc).
  • Mixed opinions on the potential to be involved intensely in research through the course of med school without taking a research year
  • Competition to standout extracurricular-wise with the P/F curriculum?
Summary: I am still in the process of doing research and talking to current students to make an informed decision, and I just wanted to ask the SDN community for any advice/help in making this choice. I do feel after typing everything that I am leaning towards Hopkins, but I think the Harvard name FOMO is real although I don't think the program would necessarily be the best fit for me (didn't realize I had so many cons for it but probably just because I worked at BWH the last year so have insights into the system and don't think it's for me), scholarship at WashU is also very tempting, as is the high amount of $$$ at Columbia & Yale.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read this and provide any feedback!!!
Click to expand...
For your Hopkins cons, from a Hopkins M4:


  • Student class usually seems a bit younger, and I am not nontrad but have taken a gap year and would like maybe a bit older ?
Tons of people here took 1+ gap years, so you would either be in the majority or the large minority. Would say avg matriculant age is close to 24.
  • Safety issues by being in Baltimore - although I recognize that being in an area where care is needed most requires this compromise
  • Baltimore quality of life
Almost everyone seems to find their slice of Baltimore that they enjoy. A handful of students may stay dissatisfied, but these are usually the “NYC is the best city ever and nothing can compare” types or the “I miss the 75 and sunny 24/7 in southern cal” types.
  • Student body seems less diverse?
Not sure of actual stats on how we compare to other schools demographically, but I’d be shocked if we’re markedly less diverse than anywhere else.
  • Strained history between Hopkins and Baltimore (think Henrietta Lacks etc).
This has almost no effect on your experience. It’s something the school rightfully teaches us about, and it can provide valuable lessons in that way. It may even subtly influence your approach / level of sensitivity when treating local patients. But I have neither encountered nor heard others describe a situation where this history came up during a patient encounter or affected care or your relationship with patients in any way. Mistrust of medical entities is an unfortunate and frustratingly prevalent issue, but it is not unique to Hopkins.
  • Mixed opinions on the potential to be involved intensely in research through the course of med school without taking a research year
Almost all of my classmates have been intensely involved in research during the preclinical years, and even during some clerkships. A lot of people take “research years,” but rarely because they didn’t have enough time to do research during school—usually they either treat it as a break, get a masters, or just really want to explore a topic out of genuine interest.
  • Competition to standout extracurricular-wise with the P/F curriculum?
Does not exist. ECs in med school are very different than in undergrad. You maybe join a club or two and do some volunteering when you can, but it’s not expected that you put in anywhere close to the same # of hours or level of commitment that you would have in undergrad. ECs are also not what make you stand out for residency—they may be unique talking points during an interview, but you’re not matching anywhere based on ECs. No one at Hopkins is competing with each other for EC opportunities either. There are more than enough to go around.
 
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Will just say that Hopkins last entering class had 11 URMs. And yeah, that's right, 11 TOTAL URMs, not just 11 hispanic/latinos or AA/black. So yes that is markedly less diverse (by a lot) than most other top schools.
 
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Whoever covers more of your COA. These programs should solidly get you into any residency you want, and you deserve it. Getting into a residency at Harvard will make up for your FOMO, and any of these schools can get you there if you do the work for it.
 
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ssf20000 said:
Will just say that Hopkins last entering class had 11 URMs. And yeah, that's right, 11 TOTAL URMs, not just 11 hispanic/latinos or AA/black. So yes that is markedly less diverse (by a lot) than most other top schools.
Click to expand...
I have a friend who went Hopkins for undergrad and got in for med school but def was not inclined to go back for that reason.
 
ssf20000 said:
Will just say that Hopkins last entering class had 11 URMs. And yeah, that's right, 11 TOTAL URMs, not just 11 hispanic/latinos or AA/black. So yes that is markedly less diverse (by a lot) than most other top schools.
Click to expand...

That’s actually horrendous
 
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I am also choosing between the schools on this list and am leaning Harvard or Hopkins and having a difficult time because diversity in all senses is important to me and while Harvard has student diversity but lacks patient diversity, Hopkins has patient diversity but lacks student diversity. I think patient diversity is perhaps more important for training, but I I also know how isolating it can feel to not have other students around who understand your experience and I'm not sure how that would feel at Hopkins. I am still leaning Hopkins but your concern is super valid.
 
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MercifulCamper said:
That’s actually horrendous
Click to expand...
Yea to be honest I didn't want to delve on it further since it's a sensitive topic and all...but yeah clearly they aren't trying (or worse lol). 4 hispanic/latinos in the whole class is absolutely insane, and talking to people after my interview about it (people in LMSA and general students) it seems to be a problem not only at the student level but also above.
 
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Yeah I wonder why. Just in 2019, acc to MSAR, there were 25 URM students in the entering class, so clearly there's a decreasing trend.
 
zestyzigzagoon said:
Yeah I wonder why. Just in 2019, acc to MSAR, there were 25 URM students in the entering class, so clearly there's a decreasing trend.
Click to expand...
Now that you mention it, looking at MSAR it's almost decreasing linearly lol. That's comical.
 
What do their SES diversity numbers look like? MSAR has that info right, I think disadvantaged percentage?
 
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Hopkins is notorious for being terribly non-diverse...even when compared to peer institutions (which is a low bar, btw) lol. I'm definitely part of the "they don't really care" camp, because Hopkins could very easily have a more diverse class if they wanted to. Harvard, UCSF, and Stanford (esp the latter two) have clearly demonstrated this.
 
I'mInDer! said:
Hopkins is notorious for being terribly non-diverse...even when compared to peer institutions (which is a low bar, btw) lol. I'm definitely part of the "they don't really care" camp, because Hopkins could very easily have a more diverse class if they wanted to. Harvard, UCSF, and Stanford (esp the latter two) have clearly demonstrated this.
Click to expand...
I think that makes sense, since Hopkins seems to be more stats-focused compared to Stanford/UCSF
 
BritainKittenMittens said:
What's their trend and how does that compare to their peers? Not sure if this is up to date:
Click to expand...

That’s an interesting graph. Citation please?
The SES/ disadvantage status is not considered a proxy for URM status, and is its own category and with its definitions based on family income at Hopkins Med.
Hopkins Med is heavily focused on high quality applicants with high stats and outstanding ECs. Also, they have eliminated legacy status (ALDC) significantly over the last 2 years. That elimination could explain some of the drops in the URM category.
Surely, the 2 categories ( URM and SES) could intersect but is not necessary- i.e not all SES are URM and vice versa.

edit: The URM professorial faculty breakdown here:
1680813609486.png
 
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Young&Wise said:
That’s an interesting graph. Citation please?
The SES/ disadvantage status is not considered a proxy for URM status, and is its own category and with its definitions based on family income at Hopkins Med.
Hopkins Med is heavily focused on high quality applicants with high stats and outstanding ECs. Also, they have eliminated legacy status (ALDC) significantly over the last 2 years. That elimination could explain some of the drops in the URM category.
Surely, the 2 categories ( URM and SES) could intersect but is not necessary- i.e not all SES are URM and vice versa.

edit: The URM professorial faculty breakdown here:
View attachment 368978
Click to expand...
How would removing legacy status impact the number of URM students when historically most legacy admits are not URM?
 
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That is because you are seeing SES and URM as interchangeable terms though they are not.
Med school admissions view racial diversity in context with economics. That would involve recruiting top students from every racial group and also want to achieve academic excellence and racial diversity as cheaply as possible, because the cost of scholarships for needy applicants competes with faculty salaries, student amenities, and other priorities. JHU med does have proportionally more URM faculty representation as compared to some other med schools of that caliber, but with elimination of faculty/ legacy quota, their children may not get preferential admission over lower SES student of a different race. (whereas they could have been preferred admits in previous years). That could lead to drop off of some URM candidates.
 
Y'all, this is starting to get off topic and I've been on SDN long enough to know where it's headed, lol. OP, I'm curious to know how much finances matter for you. Your two favorites are the most expensive.

Tbh based solely on your pros and cons, Yale pretty easily seems like the best option.

Let's look at your cons for Yale.

New Haven is relatively isolated, not near any major airports
- Fair concern, although pretty close to NYC and has a direct train ride there.

Thesis requirement - although wouldn't be bad because I plan on research anyways
- This is not a con, which you've kinda already alluded to. If anything, it'll help you if you're trying to publish.

Most people take 5 years regardless of specialty?
- Not a con, has nothing to do with you. You dont have to take the extra hear and wont be pressured to.

Maybe too relaxed?
- Yo....read this again lmfao. This is not a con, it's a major pro. You got into Harvard, Hopkins, WashU, Columbia, and Yale...with financial aid from each school. You will not suddenly become a slacker lol
 
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I'mInDer! said:
Y'all, this is starting to get off topic and I've been on SDN long enough to know where it's headed, lol. OP, I'm curious to know how much finances matter for you. Your two favorites are the most expensive.

Tbh based solely on your pros and cons, Yale pretty easily seems like the best option.

Let's look at your cons for Yale.

New Haven is relatively isolated, not near any major airports
- Fair concern, although pretty close to NYC and has a direct train ride there.

Thesis requirement - although wouldn't be bad because I plan on research anyways
- This is not a con, which you've kinda already alluded to. If anything, it'll help you if you're trying to publish.

Most people take 5 years regardless of specialty?
- Not a con, has nothing to do with you. You dont have to take the extra hear and wont be pressured to.

Maybe too relaxed?
- Yo....read this again lmfao. This is not a con, it's a major pro. You got into Harvard, Hopkins, WashU, Columbia, and Yale...with financial aid from each school. You will not suddenly become a slacker lol
Click to expand...
Read my mind, my thoughts exactly! Those cons are not as big imo as the ones for your other schools
 
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First off, big THANK YOU to everyone and the amazing advice I received in my DMs. This honestly helped immensely with collecting my thoughts and thinking about what I want to gain from med school. I have also realized from looking at match lists and conversations with everyone that it seriously does not matter which med school you go to among these choices from a residency match perspective, and I agree that from looking at my pros/cons, my top choices are Hopkins and Yale. I think these two schools would be the best fit for me, mental health during med school, and my career and personal interests! Finances are important, but I could afford any of the schools listed with the aid given. I know there's talk that $80k difference, in the long run, does not matter, but it feels drastically different when you actually have to make the choice o_O

Also just wanted to give @Biochemist3412 a big shoutout for being so helpful with looking at schools esp in light of my specialty interest, and I do think that if you know what you want to do for sure (from ample clinical exposure and shadowing) - then the best med school for you will be the one that grants you the best opportunities/research/mentors in that field. This also definitely helps me narrow down my choices :)

Planning on talking to financial aid at Hopkins and see if I can get any reconsideration because of other offers!

notmedicaladvice said:
I am also choosing between the schools on this list and am leaning Harvard or Hopkins and having a difficult time because diversity in all senses is important to me and while Harvard has student diversity but lacks patient diversity, Hopkins has patient diversity but lacks student diversity. I think patient diversity is perhaps more important for training, but I I also know how isolating it can feel to not have other students around who understand your experience and I'm not sure how that would feel at Hopkins. I am still leaning Hopkins but your concern is super valid.
Click to expand...

You put it so perfectly! I think there's a weird dissonance between student vs patient demographics at these two schools, and I agree that although I value diverse classmates and different perspectives, I may value more patient diversity and the ability to work with patients from different backgrounds during school/training and be able to see issues that affect all different kinds of patients. I've gotten the sense that Hopkins selects for more traditional, stellar premeds who have excelled with extracurriculars and academics while Harvard looks for students with an angular niche and unique trajectory who may or may not stand out the most academically. This might have to do with the difference in the % URM, and def with NYU (despite being free tuition) having the lowest % indicates that valuing academic achievement too strongly (to game USNews no less...) may be detrimental to student body diversity.
 
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sunshower26 said:
First off, big THANK YOU to everyone and the amazing advice I received in my DMs. This honestly helped immensely with collecting my thoughts and thinking about what I want to gain from med school. I have also realized from looking at match lists and conversations with everyone that it seriously does not matter which med school you go to among these choices from a residency match perspective, and I agree that from looking at my pros/cons, my top choices are Hopkins and Yale. I think these two schools would be the best fit for me, mental health during med school, and my career and personal interests! Finances are important, but I could afford any of the schools listed with the aid given. I know there's talk that $80k difference, in the long run, does not matter, but it feels drastically different when you actually have to make the choice o_O

Also just wanted to give @Biochemist3412 a big shoutout for being so helpful with looking at schools esp in light of my specialty interest, and I do think that if you know what you want to do for sure (from ample clinical exposure and shadowing) - then the best med school for you will be the one that grants you the best opportunities/research/mentors in that field. This also definitely helps me narrow down my choices :)

Planning on talking to financial aid at Hopkins and see if I can get any reconsideration because of other offers!



You put it so perfectly! I think there's a weird dissonance between student vs patient demographics at these two schools, and I agree that although I value diverse classmates and different perspectives, I may value more patient diversity and the ability to work with patients from different backgrounds during school/training and be able to see issues that affect all different kinds of patients. I've gotten the sense that Hopkins selects for more traditional, stellar premeds who have excelled with extracurriculars and academics while Harvard looks for students with an angular niche and unique trajectory who may or may not stand out the most academically. This might have to do with the difference in the % URM, and def with NYU (despite being free tuition) having the lowest % indicates that valuing academic achievement too strongly (to game USNews no less...) may be detrimental to student body diversity.
Click to expand...
You'll be great no matter where you go! Excited for your future ahead :)
 
Young&Wise said:
That’s an interesting graph. Citation please?
The SES/ disadvantage status is not considered a proxy for URM status, and is its own category and with its definitions based on family income at Hopkins Med.
Hopkins Med is heavily focused on high quality applicants with high stats and outstanding ECs. Also, they have eliminated legacy status (ALDC) significantly over the last 2 years. That elimination could explain some of the drops in the URM category.
Surely, the 2 categories ( URM and SES) could intersect but is not necessary- i.e not all SES are URM and vice versa.

edit: The URM professorial faculty breakdown here:
View attachment 368978
Click to expand...
I'll have to respond to this. I believe that graph goes from MSAR data of percent disadvantaged.

No I was not using SES as a proxy for race. While recognizing that racial diversity and equity is very important in medicine, I wanted to also emphasize that there are other forms of diversity and SES should be represented in medicine as well and was curious what Hopkins's was. I know that URM is not interchangeable with low SES.
 
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sunshower26 said:
First off, big THANK YOU to everyone and the amazing advice I received in my DMs. This honestly helped immensely with collecting my thoughts and thinking about what I want to gain from med school. I have also realized from looking at match lists and conversations with everyone that it seriously does not matter which med school you go to among these choices from a residency match perspective, and I agree that from looking at my pros/cons, my top choices are Hopkins and Yale. I think these two schools would be the best fit for me, mental health during med school, and my career and personal interests! Finances are important, but I could afford any of the schools listed with the aid given. I know there's talk that $80k difference, in the long run, does not matter, but it feels drastically different when you actually have to make the choice o_O

Also just wanted to give @Biochemist3412 a big shoutout for being so helpful with looking at schools esp in light of my specialty interest, and I do think that if you know what you want to do for sure (from ample clinical exposure and shadowing) - then the best med school for you will be the one that grants you the best opportunities/research/mentors in that field. This also definitely helps me narrow down my choices :)

Planning on talking to financial aid at Hopkins and see if I can get any reconsideration because of other offers!



You put it so perfectly! I think there's a weird dissonance between student vs patient demographics at these two schools, and I agree that although I value diverse classmates and different perspectives, I may value more patient diversity and the ability to work with patients from different backgrounds during school/training and be able to see issues that affect all different kinds of patients. I've gotten the sense that Hopkins selects for more traditional, stellar premeds who have excelled with extracurriculars and academics while Harvard looks for students with an angular niche and unique trajectory who may or may not stand out the most academically. This might have to do with the difference in the % URM, and def with NYU (despite being free tuition) having the lowest % indicates that valuing academic achievement too strongly (to game USNews no less...) may be detrimental to student body diversity.
Click to expand...
Will definitely excel at both schools Hopkins and Yale, good luck w ur decision
 
sunshower26 said:
First off, big THANK YOU to everyone and the amazing advice I received in my DMs. This honestly helped immensely with collecting my thoughts and thinking about what I want to gain from med school. I have also realized from looking at match lists and conversations with everyone that it seriously does not matter which med school you go to among these choices from a residency match perspective, and I agree that from looking at my pros/cons, my top choices are Hopkins and Yale. I think these two schools would be the best fit for me, mental health during med school, and my career and personal interests! Finances are important, but I could afford any of the schools listed with the aid given. I know there's talk that $80k difference, in the long run, does not matter, but it feels drastically different when you actually have to make the choice o_O

Also just wanted to give @Biochemist3412 a big shoutout for being so helpful with looking at schools esp in light of my specialty interest, and I do think that if you know what you want to do for sure (from ample clinical exposure and shadowing) - then the best med school for you will be the one that grants you the best opportunities/research/mentors in that field. This also definitely helps me narrow down my choices :)

Planning on talking to financial aid at Hopkins and see if I can get any reconsideration because of other offers!



You put it so perfectly! I think there's a weird dissonance between student vs patient demographics at these two schools, and I agree that although I value diverse classmates and different perspectives, I may value more patient diversity and the ability to work with patients from different backgrounds during school/training and be able to see issues that affect all different kinds of patients. I've gotten the sense that Hopkins selects for more traditional, stellar premeds who have excelled with extracurriculars and academics while Harvard looks for students with an angular niche and unique trajectory who may or may not stand out the most academically. This might have to do with the difference in the % URM, and def with NYU (despite being free tuition) having the lowest % indicates that valuing academic achievement too strongly (to game USNews no less...) may be detrimental to student body diversity.
Click to expand...
Pick Yale . Yale system is unbeatable. They always match well, and you’ll learn just how valuable a relaxed curriculum is when you go there. I’m guessing you got a good mcat to get into all these good schools… you had no one telling you how to study for that. You’ll find ways to optimally study in school that works for you and that flexibility is invaluable.

Cost is one of the only negatives of Yale, and you’ve negated that.


Congratulations!
 
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I personally would pick Harvard but based on what OP said seems like Yale is the frontrunner which makes sense. Hopkins is a valid choice too
 
sunshower26 said:
What are the reasons that would lead you to personally pick HMS?
Click to expand...
For some reason it gets crapped around here- but layperson prestige matters if you want to go into a cash based or private practice (which I do). Harvard medical school has by far the highest combination of lay person, medical professional and global prestige. Combine that with their endless research funding and unreal match list- it's ranked the #1 med school in the US for a reason. I also think Harvard would provide the most interesting classmates to be around but obviously these are all top 10 schools stuffed with intriguing people.

I also like Boston over St.Louis/Baltimore/New Haven easily. I'd take it over NYC as well but I can understand why some would prefer the city.
 
EndureVascular said:
For some reason it gets crapped around here- but layperson prestige matters if you want to go into a cash based or private practice (which I do).
Click to expand...
What makes you say this? I recall reading a piece either on here or some separate website that showed that most of the surgeons/doctors who owned successful private practices in the large metro areas, specifically Miami and LA, did not come from top medical schools. I'm quite positive one of the biggest private plastic surgery centers in Miami is led by someone who literally graduated from Ross (obviously just one example, but I think it's interesting lol).
 
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ssf20000 said:
What makes you say this? I recall reading a piece either on here or some separate website that showed that most of the surgeons/doctors who owned successful private practices in the large metro areas, specifically Miami and LA, did not come from top medical schools. I'm quite positive one of the biggest private plastic surgery centers in Miami is led by someone who literally graduated from Ross (obviously just one example, but I think it's interesting lol).
Click to expand...
I guess anecdotal experience as a patient and what I've heard from my parents and their physician colleagues, don't have any hard statistics to back it up
 
EndureVascular said:
I guess anecdotal experience as a patient and what I've heard from my parents and their physician colleagues, don't have any hard statistics to back it up
Click to expand...

Yeah that might say more about you than anything else lol

From what I've seen, the wait times for doctor appointments are so long that unless you get like consistently bad ratings on the review sites you should be pretty fine. But that view might say more about me than anything else lol

Edit: I have heard of some cases where people in industries like psych or derm can command top dollar from richer clients from word of mouth, and some of that can factor in what school you went to. So those doctors can charge more (sometimes without going through insurance) and work less.
 
BritainKittenMittens said:
Yeah that might say more about you than anything else lol

From what I've seen, the wait times for doctor appointments are so long that unless you get like consistently bad ratings on the review sites you should be pretty fine. But that view might say more about me than anything else lol

Edit: I have heard of some cases where people in industries like psych or derm can command top dollar from richer clients from word of mouth, and some of that can factor in what school you went to. So those doctors can charge more (sometimes without going through insurance) and work less.
Click to expand...
Yeah that is kind of what I was thinking

Once I became interested in applying I remember looking at the credentials of the derm office I was going to. 10 doctors there and every single one had elite undergrad + med school + residency combos, with 8 coming from harvard med. Similar thing in the plastic surgery office I visited. Both groups were entirely cash based and very much designed to work with wealthy clientele, so I didn't believe it was a coincidence all came from very prestigious programs
 
EndureVascular said:
Yeah that is kind of what I was thinking

Once I became interested in applying I remember looking at the credentials of the derm office I was going to. 10 doctors there and every single one had elite undergrad + med school + residency combos, with 8 coming from harvard med. Similar thing in the plastic surgery office I visited. Both groups were entirely cash based and very much designed to work with wealthy clientele, so I didn't believe it was a coincidence all came from very prestigious programs
Click to expand...
Dang bro, what Derm office you going to 👀👀??

I was fighting to get looked at by a bonefied MD.
 
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