Decreasing the number of optometry graduates.

[luvthemhogs]

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How can this be done? Most of us are all for reducing the number of optometrists in the future, and the best way, or only way, to do that is by reducing the number of optometry school students, i.e., put a limit on how many new students can enroll each year. Is there any power higher than the school itself that can control this number of students, such as the AOA?

 

[iiiimonica]

How can this be done? Most of us are all for reducing the number of optometrists in the future, and the best way, or only way, to do that is by reducing the number of optometry school students, i.e., put a limit on how many new students can enroll each year. Is there any power higher than the school itself that can control this number of students, such as the AOA?

they might have info you seek
http://www.odwire.org

 

[xmattODx]

Is there any power higher than the school itself that can control this number of students, such as the AOA?

No.

 

[BiOGoly]

How can this be done? Most of us are all for reducing the number of optometrists in the future, and the best way, or only way, to do that is by reducing the number of optometry school students, i.e., put a limit on how many new students can enroll each year. Is there any power higher than the school itself that can control this number of students, such as the AOA?

What are there, like 16 optometry schools in the whole nation? I think there might be more schools of Chinese herbal medicine than optometry schools. From what I've heard the problem with competition in optometry is that too many people want to open a practice in the same metro areas, like SoCal. Meanwhile, there are huge swaths of the country with narry an optometrist. If anything more optometrist ought to be cranked out. Maybe it will help to grow the profession.

 

[drsax]

What are there, like 16 optometry schools in the whole nation? I think there might be more schools of Chinese herbal medicine than optometry schools. From what I've heard the problem with competition in optometry is that too many people want to open a practice in the same metro areas, like SoCal. Meanwhile, there are huge swaths of the country with narry an optometrist. If anything more optometrist ought to be cranked out. Maybe it will help to grow the profession.

Thank you! From what I have heard, some parts of the country have "refracting opticians" just to make up for the lack of optometrists in their area. Plus out of 16 schools, they only accept on average around 60-80 students total. You might have ONLY 4 or 5 to accept 100+ students. My friend who is applying to pharmacy school said that the schools entering class is 200!! I think all this fear of too many optometry students graduating might be an urban legend.

 

[still_confused]

pharmacy can take alot of students because there is huge demand for them. currently, there is not enough job openings for new grads, current ODs have offices that can only sustain one doctor, older ODs refuse to retire or take on new associates. while everyone needs vision care, not everyone seeks it, hence the overabundance of ODs.

 

[prettygreeneyes]

The number of optometry school graduates has been discussed before on SDN, here is a link if you are interested...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=262527


I think that the individuals with the best perspective on whether there are too many optometry schools or not are the recent grads (cpw!) who have actually been out looking for a job. To the best of my knowledge, there are NO refracting opticians in America (correct me if I'm wrong), and show me the

huge swaths of the country with narry an optometrist

and I'll be there in a heartbeat!!!

 

[KHE]

What are there, like 16 optometry schools in the whole nation? I think there might be more schools of Chinese herbal medicine than optometry schools. From what I've heard the problem with competition in optometry is that too many people want to open a practice in the same metro areas, like SoCal. Meanwhile, there are huge swaths of the country with narry an optometrist. If anything more optometrist ought to be cranked out. Maybe it will help to grow the profession.

That's lunacy.

There is absolutely no reason to think that admitting more students or opening more colleges will produce graduates who are willing to go to these "underserved" areas.

These areas are underserved for a reason. If you believe at ALL in supply/demand economics, the reason that ODs are not practicing in those parts of the country is that there is not enough demand to support them there. If there was, there would be an OD practicing there.

 

[rpames]

To the best of my knowledge, there are NO refracting opticians in America (correct me if I'm wrong), and show me the and I'll be there in a heartbeat!!!

There are actually plenty of practices with opticians/techs who refract. They are not allowed to prescribe the refraction w/o an OD or MD, but usually the doctor does not even check the findings. I've seen it were the ophthalmic technologist does everything except posterior segment. They do all entrance test, refraction, slit lamp, app. tonometry, etc. Again, a doctor has to sign-off, but they rarely check the tech's assessment. With trained/certified techs, it is just like a dental hygienist. The hygienist does most of the work, and then the dentist just does a quick health check. That is the way optometry/ophthalmology is headed. We need to see more and more patients in order to maintain the same income.

 

[KHE]

The number of optometry school graduates has been discussed before on SDN, here is a link if you are interested...

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=262527


I think that the individuals with the best perspective on whether there are too many optometry schools or not are the recent grads (cpw!) who have actually been out looking for a job. To the best of my knowledge, there are NO refracting opticians in America (correct me if I'm wrong), and show me the and I'll be there in a heartbeat!!!

In my opinion, there is no lack of "jobs." You will always be able to get a "job."

But I would bet that most people are looking for a career. Not a job. And most people envision themselves working in and/or owning a nice private office with designer merchandise and a waiting room full of patients who are grateful to pay you good money for your services and expertise. It is my opinion that there is a woeful lack of these types of positions or opportunities available.

And I make that statement based on a simple observation that I have done and which you can try yourselves.

Phone up 10 dentists, PCPs, and ophthalmologists in the area where you want to practice and ask them when the earliest you can get in for an appointment is. I would bet $10 that 90% of them will have waiting times of at least a month.

Then phone up 10 ODs (commercial OR private) in the area that you want to practice in and ask them when the earliest that you can get in for an appointment is. I would bet $10 that 90% of them will see you within two days and if you look them up in the phone book, most of them will have large yellow page ads proudly proclaiming "walk ins welcome!"

That right there is a sign that there are too many ODs.

 

[still_confused]

And most people envision themselves working in and/or owning a nice private office with designer merchandise and a waiting room full of patients who are grateful to pay you good money for your services and expertise.

these jobs are self made (ie starting your own practice) and takes many years of hard work and sacrifice to accomplish. expecting these jobs right after you graduate or even a few years after you graduate is crazy. there are no handouts. you want a cushy job and make tons of money then go work for it.

 

[prettygreeneyes]

There are actually plenty of practices with opticians/techs who refract. They are not allowed to prescribe the refraction w/o an OD or MD, but usually the doctor does not even check the findings. I've seen it were the ophthalmic technologist does everything except posterior segment. They do all entrance test, refraction, slit lamp, app. tonometry, etc. Again, a doctor has to sign-off, but they rarely check the tech's assessment. With trained/certified techs, it is just like a dental hygienist. The hygienist does most of the work, and then the dentist just does a quick health check. That is the way optometry/ophthalmology is headed. We need to see more and more patients in order to maintain the same income.

Sorry I wasn't more clear in my post. Of course there are opticians and techs who refract and do other entrance testing, but they aren't out there on the street refracting and writing their own prescriptions ie. they are acting under the licence of an OD/OMD. My post was more in response to drsax, who posted that there were some areas of the country that have refracting opticians because of a lack of optometrists. In that instance, if the refracting optician is making up for the lack of an optometrist... they would have to be writing their own prescriptions and not acting in the capacity that you described above. Perhaps drsax is Canadian, where I understand they do have stand-alone refracting opticians? Again, sorry for the confusion.

 

[drsax]

Sorry I wasn't more clear in my post. Of course there are opticians and techs who refract and do other entrance testing, but they aren't out there on the street refracting and writing their own prescriptions ie. they are acting under the licence of an OD/OMD. My post was more in response to drsax, who posted that there were some areas of the country that have refracting opticians because of a lack of optometrists. In that instance, if the refracting optician is making up for the lack of an optometrist... they would have to be writing their own prescriptions and not acting in the capacity that you described above. Perhaps drsax is Canadian, where I understand they do have stand-alone refracting opticians? Again, sorry for the confusion.

My bad. Nope I'm not from Canada...I meant to say that I thought opticians in some states were trying to get stand-alone rights in certain areas due to lack of optometrists in some (mostly rural) areas.

 

[Schroder79]

I have a hard time agreeing with this one. There can't be not enough optometrists if it is a valuable commodity. Let me ask you, how long would it take for you to find 50 stores that sell Budweiser? How long would it take for you to find 50 optometrists? I think the problem isn't that there are too many optometrists, but that the optometrists available aren't working to the full scope of their practice. The subspecialties of VT, pediatric optometry, and specialty contact lens are very rare indeed. Optometry is alive and growing because it treats the most dominant sense we have. If you are in it for the money and see patients for 20 minutes and then say goodbye for a year then of course you will run out of patients, and you aren't doing everything you could to treat them.

One more example, how many out there drive around town to find a good gas price when there is a station near you and all that driving costs more than you would save just by going to that station? What is the purpose? To drive down the cost of gas by taking service by the cheapest price. My point is that money isn't as important as the power behind it. Getting paid for a 20 min CVE while the guy down the block is getting paid fora 60 min CVE who is doing more is robbing the practice let alone the patient.

I suppose this sign won't make me many friends, but it has to be realized that receiving the title OD has no relationship to the doctor's business sense or ideals. If if did a lot more people would be paying their AOA dues.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

There are actually plenty of practices with opticians/techs who refract. They are not allowed to prescribe the refraction w/o an OD or MD, but usually the doctor does not even check the findings. I've seen it were the ophthalmic technologist does everything except posterior segment. They do all entrance test, refraction, slit lamp, app. tonometry, etc. Again, a doctor has to sign-off, but they rarely check the tech's assessment. With trained/certified techs, it is just like a dental hygienist. The hygienist does most of the work, and then the dentist just does a quick health check. That is the way optometry/ophthalmology is headed. We need to see more and more patients in order to maintain the same income.

A tech examining ant seg and lens? Can't say I much like that.

 

[drsax]

A tech examining ant seg and lens? Can't say I much like that.

I work at a retail optical chain, and when I was waiting to see the doctor, the tech did refract me using an auto refractor, but that just gives a "rough draft" of your prescription. Like rpames said, the optometrist gives the final say so. You would be surprised with what all techs can do. But I do agree that it seems like people are not taking advantage of the full scope of eye care.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I work at a retail optical chain, and when I was waiting to see the doctor, the tech did refract me using an auto refractor, but that just gives a "rough draft" of your prescription. Like rpames said, the optometrist gives the final say so. You would be surprised with what all techs can do. But I do agree that it seems like people are not taking advantage of the full scope of eye care.

I worked as a tech at an ophthalmology practice where we autorefracted, did tonometry, rough visual fields, and then refracted before the MD saw the patient. However, no tech would have even thought about using the slit lamp for any reason, much less examining the anterior segment or lens. That's the part that got me.

 

[cpw]

There are actually plenty of practices with opticians/techs who refract. They are not allowed to prescribe the refraction w/o an OD or MD, but usually the doctor does not even check the findings. I've seen it were the ophthalmic technologist does everything except posterior segment. They do all entrance test, refraction, slit lamp, app. tonometry, etc. Again, a doctor has to sign-off, but they rarely check the tech's assessment. With trained/certified techs, it is just like a dental hygienist. The hygienist does most of the work, and then the dentist just does a quick health check. That is the way optometry/ophthalmology is headed. We need to see more and more patients in order to maintain the same income.

That's the way it was with the OMD I did externship with. The techs did EVERYTHING !! Pressures, checked angles, refracted, etc. The OMD basically came in after they were dilated for a fundus check and then moved on to the next patient. he loved having me working there with him because he knew for sure the refractions were correct.

His techs were very very good though.

 

[KHE]

I have a hard time agreeing with this one. There can't be not enough optometrists if it is a valuable commodity. Let me ask you, how long would it take for you to find 50 stores that sell Budweiser? How long would it take for you to find 50 optometrists? I think the problem isn't that there are too many optometrists, but that the optometrists available aren't working to the full scope of their practice. The subspecialties of VT, pediatric optometry, and specialty contact lens are very rare indeed. Optometry is alive and growing because it treats the most dominant sense we have. If you are in it for the money and see patients for 20 minutes and then say goodbye for a year then of course you will run out of patients, and you aren't doing everything you could to treat them.

.

There is a reason that not enough ODs practice to the full extent of their licensure as you claim and it all boils down to simple supply and demand economics. (again)

Contrary to what the professional organizations will tell you, there is not a tremendous unmet demand out there for bitoric bifocal RGP contact lenses, post Lasik/PK fits or vision therapy.

During my tenure in optometry, I had the opportunity to work in a private practice that was staffed with two diplomates of the academy contact lens section. These guys were GOOD. They could fit just about any crazy cornea out there with SOMETHING and had a good reputation amongst other ODs who would send us patients. We saw one of these types of patients MAYBE once every three months.

Same thing with vision therapy. Not enough demand for it. And that can be proven with a simple notation. 50 years ago, contact lenses and VT were both extremely rare and few practioners offered these services. Fast forward to the year 2006 and we have over 30 million contact lense users in this country and millions more worldwide yet VT remains a rarity. Why do you think that is? Again, not enough demand for it.

 

[Schroder79]

There is a reason that not enough ODs practice to the full extent of their licensure as you claim and it all boils down to simple supply and demand economics. (again)

Contrary to what the professional organizations will tell you, there is not a tremendous unmet demand out there for bitoric bifocal RGP contact lenses, post Lasik/PK fits or vision therapy.

During my tenure in optometry, I had the opportunity to work in a private practice that was staffed with two diplomates of the academy contact lens section. These guys were GOOD. They could fit just about any crazy cornea out there with SOMETHING and had a good reputation amongst other ODs who would send us patients. We saw one of these types of patients MAYBE once every three months.

Same thing with vision therapy. Not enough demand for it. And that can be proven with a simple notation. 50 years ago, contact lenses and VT were both extremely rare and few practioners offered these services. Fast forward to the year 2006 and we have over 30 million contact lense users in this country and millions more worldwide yet VT remains a rarity. Why do you think that is? Again, not enough demand for it.

First thankyou for responding. This is an issue I have struggled to understand without as much experience of involvement as most. I really think the profession can do more though. Perhaps a good marker to understand would be by acknowledging how many referrals we make when we didn't feel comfortable handling something we are licensed to take care of. Maybe public prespective and legal limitations are different.
I think its unfortunate if the demand is not there. I think a reason demand may not appear there isn't because of lack of need. I think we can all agree we meet plenty of people who could use some VT or treatment in one way or another. I think the demand just isn't realized. Oh I know I'm not as experienced as many here but I do know I never saw an optometrist until I interviewed for optometry school. I saw 20/20 so I saw no need. I did wonder however why I kept losing in soccer and why I was afraid to swing in baseball. Turns out my stereo vision is very sub par. Now I know. Would I have changed my life had I known this earlier? Absolutely. First of all inferiority in sports would be more acceptable, no more "if only I try a little harder I will be as good as the other guys." Turns out my color ability on the anamaloscope is limited as well.

In my opinion optometrists are the masters of seeing on this planet. Until everyone can see perfect Va's and stereo, our job isn't done. Sports vision has been gaining momentum for quite some time. Is there prespective development in occupational specializations (environmental vision care)? I think so.

The demand supply is all relative to the publics perception, that is why MD's make so much money. Technology is increasing and so are visual demands. How many of you have a patient that demands that extra .12 Diopters in their Rx? How many live near Intel or some Microsoft satellite? My example with specialty contact lenses I didn't mean to say we should all specialize in that because I'm sure you're right, there isn't much demand there. But the doctors who cater to them have much fuller schedules I'd wager. I think with the correct marketing optometry would skyrocket. I also think its unfair to compare the practice to averages or norms when it depends on the very personal relationship the doctor has with their patients.