Define psychiatry moonlighting please

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TexasPhysician

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As a new intern, I'm curious as to what exactly constitutes moonlighting in my field.

Is there any problem with starting my own company with family?

Is there a problem with only doing therapy on my own (no prescriptions)?

Could I do consulting on my own?

Besides prescribing meds in my own private practice, is there anything else I can't do as a moonlighter?
 
As a new intern, I'm curious as to what exactly constitutes moonlighting in my field.

Is there any problem with starting my own company with family?

A non-medical company? Sure, you can do that. Just make sure you have the time for it. 🙂

Is there a problem with only doing therapy on my own (no prescriptions)?

Yes.

Could I do consulting on my own?

As a psychiatrist? No.

Besides prescribing meds in my own private practice, is there anything else I can't do as a moonlighter?

You can only do what your program allows you to do and with an institution that will cover your liability. And likely nothing at all until you have passed Step 3. I don't know of any program in any specialty in which interns are allowed to moonlight.
 
It depends on the rules of the state concerning moonlighting. From my own experience, moonlighters cannot practice without a license to practice medicine in the state, they must have it approved by the program, they cannot do it until possibly 3rd or 4th year, and it may have to only be done at an institution that allows for moonlighters because they will cover the moonlighter's liability.

What you should do is ask your program director. My advice is if you want to moonlight, don't do private practice where it's your practice.

I wrote this in the "I want to start making money thread" where another resident mentioned he was looking into starting his own cash-only practice....

Another problem with starting cash-only at your point in your career is there are several things you have to consider if you want out of this practice. You will likely want to move onto bigger and better things by the time you graduate. You will be required to refer your patients to another doctor, and depending on your state may be required to give 3 referrals, typed up, with specific office appointments made for the patient and mailed to them via certified mail.

That's just the tip of the iceberg. Are you certain you know what you're getting into? I didn't mention you may be required to keep your patient's records in fire-proof cabinets, hold onto the records for at least 3 years, have several forms written up for the patients such as release of information forms, waiver forms, consent forms, etc.

Some more concerns, if you started your own practice, will you hire a secretary? Have you ever been a boss before? Will you provide health coverage? What will you do if you get a bad secretary? What are the laws in your state concerning firing a person? (Some require that you keep onto someone who is doing a bad job for at least a few weeks, some require that you provide breaks given a certain number of hours worked--are you aware of these regulations?) How will you educate your secretary on HIPAA? What will you do if your secretary just out of the blue quits her job and you need someone to mail out 50 letters in the next day, and that next day you are on call? Will you hold samples in your office? Do you know what the legal requirements are for samples? (E.g. a lockable storage area). Are you concerned that having a storage area for samples might invite someone to want to break into your office? If patients don't pay, how will you handle that? Will you have use a billing agency?

Do not start a private practice on your own as a resident even if you are legally allowed to do so.

Ever watch the BBC Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares? I'm thinking if residents started their own moonlighting practice, it'd be like one of those poor fools who started their own restaurant, not knowing how the heck to run it, and within a few weeks the person is losing over $1000/week (or in this case pounds), and having to do extra hours someplace else to maintain the restaurant that's doomed to fail anyways with the person eventually being in massive debt over it. Why even take the risk? Figure out what you're doing and what you're getting yourself into before you commit yourself to it.
 
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For arguements sake: Why is there a problem with providing therapy (no prescriptions) on my own?

Therapy isn't exclusive to MD's. Do you even need a license in anything to do therapy? I wouldn't consider it "practicing as a physician" if Joe Schmoe can do it....

And consulting would be fine as long as I didn't market myself as a psychiatrist?

I will obviously ask my PD before doing anything, but I want to know how much wiggle room I have when/if I do so.

Thank you all for your advise.
 
You can only do what your program allows you to do and with an institution that will cover your liability. And likely nothing at all until you have passed Step 3. I don't know of any program in any specialty in which interns are allowed to moonlight.

UAMS allows it. They have moonlighting in-house at the state hospital that you can pick up early in your intern year, even before Step 3.

The more lucrative moonlighting though is only after Step 3 and starting your second year.
 
Giving therapy on your own isn't much of a problem. The problem arises out of all the legal and office requirements if the practice is your own. That in and of itself may become a part-time job.
 
For arguements sake: Why is there a problem with providing therapy (no prescriptions) on my own?

Because you don't know how to do it. I don't know about you, but I was taught very little about how to do psychotherapy as a medical student and had zero practical experience doing so until my 3rd year of residency (some programs introduce it earlier).

And yes, you do need to be licensed in something to practice pyschotherapy unless you are billing yourself as a life coach or some such. Joe Schmoe can't do it and anyone who thinks he can probably shouldn't be doing it either.
 
UAMS allows it. They have moonlighting in-house at the state hospital that you can pick up early in your intern year, even before Step 3.

The more lucrative moonlighting though is only after Step 3 and starting your second year.

In house moonlighting is just paying you extra to take extra call.
No state allows moonlighting before your intern year or step 3 that I am aware of. No state should either.
Our program didnt allow moonlighting until the 3rd year but we had to meet ACGME work hour requirements and they were rigorously checked with the employer.
 
Because you don't know how to do it. I don't know about you, but I was taught very little about how to do psychotherapy as a medical student and had zero practical experience doing so until my 3rd year of residency (some programs introduce it earlier).

True. If someone can give good psychotherapy in their third year, they either already had psychotherapy training before residency, or they are a clear extreme outlier.
 
Whopper, you make starting a private practice sound daunting (which I'm sure it is). Is this the route you've chosen, or are you in a group practice or academia or salaried somewhere? I have been told I'll get the question about what kind of practice I would like in 10 years at residency interviews, and frankly I've no idea. Do you recommend private practice in general?
 
I've been given the offer to take over someone's practice, and I will be working in private practice, (though it is not my own) in a few weeks. My father owned a private practice and I worked in it for a few years. His practice went down the tubes in profitability with the healthcare changes of the late 80s, but he keeps it running today even though it's losing money. (Insurance didn't want to pay specialists who saw patients as their PCP). My uncle also owned a private practice that he folded because the state offered retirement benefits that could not match what he made in private practice.

Owning a private practice is for all intents and purposes, owning a small business. It's not like you can just rent an office and do psychiatry. You have to have some knowledge on running an office, hiring and firing employees, the legal requirements, and be committed because these are YOUR patients.

In usual hospital practice, once you're done with your patients, you discharge them and the social worker and several other staff members handle most of the odds of ends. Unless you hired someone to do it, you have to handle the odds and ends.

Just to give one example, someone I know (who is not African-American) had a private practice and he fired his secretary (who was African-American). He had his daughter work as his secretary until he could find a new one. In the meantime, the secretary found out about this, but didn't know the fill-in secretary was his daughter. She sued the doctor claiming racism.

OKay, now what if you were a resident and this happened to you? How the heck are you going to handle this lawsuit while you have residency obligations!?!?! Get my point? The above is just one example.

Another example, what if you don't get the snow on your sidewalk by your office shoveled, or even if you did, some schmuck slips and falls and now he's suing you. Again, do you want this headache as a resident? How the heck will you be preparing your grand rounds while having to juggle with issues like this? Okay, so you pay someone do to the sidewalk for you. Great, next day the guy doesn't show up to do the sidewalk till 5 pm. The schmuck slipped and fell at 4pm.

Lawsuits aside, there's still plenty of issues people have to be prepared for that medschool or residency does not teach you. What are you going to do if your patient cannot pay? Deny services? Will you be violating the law in doing so? What if the patient promises to pay you later? Then it's 1 year later and you still haven't got the money. These things happen in a private practice.

I have not owned a private practice, but I have owned and run a few small businesses. You just can't walk into this as if it's going to be a money-making dream. I think most residents wanting to do their own private-practice are walking into a situation that's over their heads, and by the time they've figured that out, they probably wouldn't have even made much money, but are now legally committed to providing the patient services the resident had no idea or intention of providing.

I'm going to bring it up again. I've been watching Ramsey's Kitchen Nightmares and have seen almost every episode of the BBC version. What Ramsay brings up is very true of small businesses. I could imagine most residents starting a private practice (which I do not even believe is legal) becoming the unfortunate person in one of those episodes.
Here's an example of one episode (part 5 of 5)

You can however, just get to the point I'm trying to make by going here, start at 5:10...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lbIyJlLi7YU&feature=related

Here's another episode where the owner knew how to serve great food, but didn't know what she was getting into.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5dfm3bWxsc

Despite the happy ending, I read up on her. Later on, she lost everything. Ramsay saved her, taught here where she was messing up, she fixed it, she then did well, but then she expanded the business after the episode, and didn't know how to handle it.

Would I recommend a private practice? Yes, if you know what you are getting into, want to run a small business, and have a plan on dealing with billing, the legal requirements, running an office, etc. I do not, however, know how the upcoming healthcare bill changes will change private practices.

The reality of the situation is, as an attending, even if you don't have good business skills, you will likely profit enough to keep things afloat because with a 6 figure income, you can waste $50K because you don't know WTF you are doing. E.g. you can overpay the secretary because you will still be in the black. You can afford patients who can't pay here and there, but it'll have to come out of your pay. But if you actually knew what you were doing, you'd be $50K ahead and a lot happier. That's what happened to my father. Because he didn't know how to run an office, while he made money, he wasted about $100K a year, and his employees walked all over him. Even after his business was not making money, he kept his secretaries for years because they didn't have retirement and had no where else they could work. He allowed that to drain his money for years.

As a resident? Forget about it. You could only likely devote 10-20 hrs a week before the practice drove you nuts anyway assuming your program is only working you 40 hrs a week. I hate sounding harsh, but I wouldn't let a resident of mine do this if I were a PD, out of concern for them, not because I was trying to rule with an iron hand. If a resident of mine had a private practice, and there was a lawsuit against them from their private practice, I would be taking several steps to build a wall showing there should be no legal connection between the resident and the program, and I would strongly consider kicking the resident out for starting a practice over the program's head even if the resident wasn't already kicked out in the "building a wall" phase.

And let's just say that resident did start a practice and everything at the practice was going well. If the resident couldn't perform his resident duties because of the private practice, then the private practice has to fold, or the resident is out.
 
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Honestly, I agree with Whopper. I've been doing it for a year now and I'm about ready to wash my hands of the whole thing and go work for someone else again (and hopefully someone a little less nutty than the person I worked for last time). I'm just taking the time to think seriously about where I want to be geographically and what, ideally, I would like to be doing. I don't like doing psychotherapy as much as I always thought I would. I don't really like it that much at all, to be honest. I like knowing about it and I like working with other people who are good at it. But I don't really like doing it. I even questioned whether I still like psychiatry and I think I still do, I just need to find the right niche.
 
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