Degree/career options abroad

[aspiringdclinpsy]

Hello everyone! I apologize if I am not posting this in the right place, I'm new to SDN so please be kind as I learn I am interested in my career opportunities abroad and within the United States given various routes I could take at this point in my career. I'm interested in what you guys think will open up the largest number of desirable doors for me.

I'm considering starting to work towards my doctorate sometime in the next few years, since I'm nearing the end of my master's level training. My long-term goals are to eventually have as broad a career as I can, in terms of possibilities for geographic location as well as professional duties/responsibilities. I'm interested in being a clinician as well as a researcher, and I'd be interested in trying out teaching too along the way if the opportunity arises. Additionally, I'd like to spend parts of my life outside the US, including (if possible) while pursuing my doctorate and while working afterwards.

Right now I'm choosing between a PsyD and a PhD in the US (leaning towards a PhD if I can manage to get an acceptance after getting more research experience), but I'm also considering going to the UK for a DClinPsy or a DPsych (or even a PhD there?? idk). I'm curious if any of you know distinguishing factors that might be of interest to me. How portable will each degree be in terms of going to a different country? (I understand that no matter what, it is difficult to transfer a degree in this field, but which would be easiest?) Which will provide me with the most opportunities in the vein of the ones I'm seeking?

A related struggle that I'm facing is whether I want to pursue clinical or counseling psychology. I have the same questions about this area of ambivalence as well.

I have tried to find sources about this topic, but I haven't found all the information that I'm looking for and that is relevant to me, so I thought it couldn't hurt to ask here

Edit: To clarify, I understand that I can't practice as a psychologist in the US with a foreign degree. I'm not sure whether I want to come back to the US anyway - that's part of what I'm grappling with in my mind right now. It might be nice to have the option, but if I want to live/work abroad, maybe I should just commit to that? I can always fall back on my counseling master's degree here in the US.

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[MAClinician]

Advice Needed - UK/US PhD

Hello all! This fall, I will be applying to psychology doctorate programs in the US and UK. Unfortunately, I've encountered what seems to be a big stumbling block: In the US, students must commit to a school by April 15th. In the UK, it seems as though schools don't release decisions until...

forums.studentdoctor.net

 

[PsyDr]

1) Being educated in the UK does give you a work visa.
2) The UK isn't part of the EU.

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

1) Being educated in the UK does give you a work visa.
2) The UK isn't part of the EU.

It sounds like your suggestion, then, in order to increase my flexibility, would be to go to school in the EU?

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

Advice Needed - UK/US PhD

Hello all! This fall, I will be applying to psychology doctorate programs in the US and UK. Unfortunately, I've encountered what seems to be a big stumbling block: In the US, students must commit to a school by April 15th. In the UK, it seems as though schools don't release decisions until...

forums.studentdoctor.net

Thank you! I am familiar with this thread, it was very helpful to me as I was looking into these topics. I guess I was hoping for more discussion and individualized advice

 

[PsyDr]

It sounds like your suggestion, then, in order to increase my flexibility, would be to go to school in the EU?

I'd suggest that this is plan is never going to happen, without effort and personal drive.

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

I'd suggest that this is plan is never going to happen, without effort and personal drive.

Thank you? lol

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

I'd suggest that this is plan is never going to happen, without effort and personal drive.

I would like to know more about this response. It sounds like you are implying that I have not shown effort or personal drive in this pursuit. Maybe I'm incorrect in my interpretation. Would you say that's what you meant? Or was it more something like, "it's going to be a difficult path ahead of you in order to reach your goals, so be aware of that"?

 

[summerbabe]

I guess I was hoping for more discussion and individualized advice

You’re probably not going to find that here since virtually everybody is US-based (with some Canadian experience sprinkled in). Regardless, specific licensing questions are usually answered with ‘check with your board’.

If you want to consider this in a thorough way, you’ll need to start by becoming a mini-expert in how a whole bunch of countries define and regulate psychotherapy and psychological assessment and what degree/licensure they require and start looking for similarities and then specifically follow up with regulatory agencies.

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

You’re probably not going to find that here since virtually everybody is US-based (with some Canadian experience sprinkled in). Regardless, specific licensing questions are usually answered with ‘check with your board’.

If you want to consider this in a thorough way, you’ll need to start by becoming a mini-expert in how a whole bunch of countries define and regulate psychotherapy and psychological assessment and what degree/licensure they require and start looking for similarities and then specifically follow up with regulatory agencies.

Thank you very much! That is super helpful, it's sort of what I expected which shows that I'm on the right path at least. I've already somewhat done that for the field of counseling, but I'll get started on the field of psychology. I'll follow up with you if I have any more questions, if that's okay

 

[The Cinnabon]

I looked into this myself although I am only a senior in undergrad so take this with a grain of salt. From everything I've been told though unless you're dead-set in staying in a nation besides the US, go for a US PhD. The US PhD is simply the most valuable Clinical Psychology doctorate out there right now. There have been a few US PhDs that have arranged their practices abroad (within the NHS in the UK). In fact in this article "The expat life" one of the individuals mentioned got his PsyD in the US but arranged his neuropsych internship in the UK so it's certainly possible.

If you're interested in an exclusively research career the answer is pretty simple in that you'd apply to faculty positions abroad, do note that this probably won't allow you to practice abroad or at the very least it'll vary from country to country. If you're interested in traveling to somewhere where English isn't the predominant language, to clinically practice, you'd better hope there's a robust expat population that can support a practice (and that you can be properly licensed, if available). There is a work around to all of this, the DOD hires clinical psychologists in a civilian capacity to provide clinical care to troops abroad. Since these positions are for civilians they are in the stable military bases in the developed world. Just some food for thought.

If I were you though I would stay in the US, although I have nothing to prove it. I'd imagine even if you went the UK route your PhD would be an asset and allow you to hit the consultant levels at a quicker pace with the robust training you possess.

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

I looked into this myself although I am only a senior in undergrad so take this with a grain of salt. From everything I've been told though unless you're dead-set in staying in a nation besides the US, go for a US PhD. The US PhD is simply the most valuable Clinical Psychology doctorate out there right now. There have been a few US PhDs that have arranged their practices abroad (within the NHS in the UK). In fact in this article "The expat life" one of the individuals mentioned got his PsyD in the US but arranged his neuropsych internship in the UK so it's certainly possible.

If you're interested in an exclusively research career the answer is pretty simple in that you'd apply to faculty positions abroad, do note that this probably won't allow you to practice abroad or at the very least it'll vary from country to country. If you're interested in traveling to somewhere where English isn't the predominant language, to clinically practice, you'd better hope there's a robust expat population that can support a practice (and that you can be properly licensed, if available). There is a work around to all of this, the DOD hires clinical psychologists in a civilian capacity to provide clinical care to troops abroad. Since these positions are for civilians they are in the stable military bases in the developed world. Just some food for thought.

Thank you, all of that is great info. I'm especially really excited and surprised at the prospect of doing an internship in the UK after a PhD in the US. I had not even thought of that. I'll definitely read the article you linked.

I've considered expats as a target population for sure, as well working for various government organizations like the DOD. All very attractive options if I can make it work. I'm also encouraged to know that a US PhD in Clin Psy is "the most valuable [one] out there right now," that's definitely the kind of information I was looking for when I made this post.

You've been super helpful! If you want to discuss the topic any more, since it's an area of interest for you too, feel free to reach out!

 

[The Cinnabon]

Thank you, all of that is great info. I'm especially really excited and surprised at the prospect of doing an internship in the UK after a PhD in the US. I had not even thought of that. I'll definitely read the article you linked.

I've considered expats as a target population for sure, as well working for various government organizations like the DOD. All very attractive options if I can make it work. I'm also encouraged to know that a US PhD in Clin Psy is "the most valuable [one] out there right now," that's definitely the kind of information I was looking for when I made this post.

You've been super helpful! If you want to discuss the topic any more, since it's an area of interest for you too, feel free to reach out!

Honestly, if at all possible and you really wanted to practice in the UK. I would still find out how to be licensee in both the US and the UK (even if it made your life marginally more confusing for a few months), you really wouldn't want to lose out on a US license if you intend on a clinical career.

But I suppose we're putting the cart before the horse right now.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

The most prudent path would be to complete all of your training in the US (including post-doc), get licensed in the USA, and then try and move abroad. As others have said, you'd need to become an expert in all of the differences and likely get some to substantial help from an employer willing to sponsor you and push to make it happen.

Australia and Canada are two countries I've seen American trained psychologists work, though there are likely others. In many countries, practicing psychology does not require a doctorate. In some countries a Ph.D. is treated only as a research degree, so if you want to be a researcher....it could be easier.

 

[PsyDr]

I would like to know more about this response. It sounds like you are implying that I have not shown effort or personal drive in this pursuit. Maybe I'm incorrect in my interpretation. Would you say that's what you meant? Or was it more something like, "it's going to be a difficult path ahead of you in order to reach your goals, so be aware of that"?

I'm stating that you cannot come into the UK or EU without answering questions about if you have a work visa or intend to work. I'm also stating that Brexit has been common knowledge for some time now. I'm implying that your phrasing indicates that you were unaware of the basics and intricacies of this process. I phrased my response in an ambiguous way to elicit reactions that might support or dismiss any deductions.

If I'm reading your original post correctly, there are several significant gaps in knowledge and it's not a well formed plan. That isn't a significant problem, so long as you fix it by spending some time and effort. If you won't exert that effort in learning how to start an enterprise, then it is unlikely that you will exert more effort into completing a more difficult enterprise.

First, you need to get into a country. For that, border agent will ask you about student visas, work visas, financial reserves, residential requirements, healthcare insurance proof, potentially the language, where you are staying, etc. You don't know that, you're not getting into the country.

Second, you'll need to have a plan for day to day life. You need to know how to handle local taxes, how to rent an apartment with a foreign passport, the language, the relevant professional terms (hint: you're off here), how to get a bank account in a foreign country and all the pains that causes on the US side, how to get a cell phone (surprisingly difficult), if you are required to move every so often, are you unable to leave the country for years so that you can establish residency, can you get married to a citizen in that country as a foreign national (because you cannot in MANY EU countries even if you're not staying), what are the idioms, do you have to buy a kitchen in an apartment, why does Santa Claus have an anthropomorphic poop as a friend, where do I get healthcare, etc etc etc.

Third, you need to complete graduate school and work in another country. What are you studying, what is your research area, how is research funding accomplished in another country, what are the publication expectations, how much do people make, what is the market like for psychotherapy, how is the profession licensed, how are professional services paid for, how common is international collaboration, what is the timeline for completion, how does graduation affect visa status, etc etc etc.

Fourth, you need to get hired. What is the process for interview, what is the annual pay, are you going to be paid less because of your nationality, etc etc etc.

Now compare your plan with something like this, "My goal is to be an international clinician and researcher in the EU, specializing in Syrian refugees. I have published research in the fMRI correlates of attention in pediatric Syrian refugees exposed to blast injuries. The relevant names in this research area are Dr. Hausen Gruber at the Universities of Stockholm and Dr. Lars Andersen in Prague. They are funded by a T190 grant by Bayer and the WHO, and accept 4 students a year. They regularly present at the European Congress of Neurology, which changes venues annually. Through networking, I have contacted them about continuing their research. It is my understanding that PhD programs are funded through governmental sources, and students receive a stipend of 24,000 euro. As a US citizen, I am eligible for these funds. I have spent 800hrs learning Swedish and Czech, contacted expat communities to learn how to rent an apartment, learned about visas, compiled documents including proof of financial reserves for the authorities, and learned how psychologists operate in these countries. How can I best present myself to these PIs?" See the difference?

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

I'm stating that you cannot come into the UK or EU without answering questions about if you have a work visa or intend to work. I'm also stating that Brexit has been common knowledge for some time now. I'm implying that your phrasing indicates that you were unaware of the basics and intricacies of this process. I phrased my response in an ambiguous way to elicit reactions that might support or dismiss any deductions.

If I'm reading your original post correctly, there are several significant gaps in knowledge and it's not a well formed plan. That isn't a significant problem, so long as you fix it by spending some time and effort. If you won't exert that effort in learning how to start an enterprise, then it is unlikely that you will exert more effort into completing a more difficult enterprise.

First, you need to get into a country. For that, border agent will ask you about student visas, work visas, financial reserves, residential requirements, healthcare insurance proof, potentially the language, where you are staying, etc. You don't know that, you're not getting into the country.

Second, you'll need to have a plan for day to day life. You need to know how to handle local taxes, how to rent an apartment with a foreign passport, the language, the relevant professional terms (hint: you're off here), how to get a bank account in a foreign country and all the pains that causes on the US side, how to get a cell phone (surprisingly difficult), if you are required to move every so often, are you unable to leave the country for years so that you can establish residency, can you get married to a citizen in that country as a foreign national (because you cannot in MANY EU countries even if you're not staying), what are the idioms, do you have to buy a kitchen in an apartment, why does Santa Claus have an anthropomorphic poop as a friend, where do I get healthcare, etc etc etc.

Third, you need to complete graduate school and work in another country. What are you studying, what is your research area, how is research funding accomplished in another country, what are the publication expectations, how much do people make, what is the market like for psychotherapy, how is the profession licensed, how are professional services paid for, how common is international collaboration, what is the timeline for completion, how does graduation affect visa status, etc etc etc.

Fourth, you need to get hired. What is the process for interview, what is the annual pay, are you going to be paid less because of your nationality, etc etc etc.

Now compare your plan with something like this, "My goal is to be an international clinician and researcher in the EU, specializing in Syrian refugees. I have published research in the fMRI correlates of attention in pediatric Syrian refugees exposed to blast injuries. The relevant names in this research area are Dr. Hausen Gruber at the Universities of Stockholm and Dr. Lars Andersen in Prague. They are funded by a T190 grant by Bayer and the WHO, and accept 4 students a year. They regularly present at the European Congress of Neurology, which changes venues annually. Through networking, I have contacted them about continuing their research. It is my understanding that PhD programs are funded through governmental sources, and students receive a stipend of 24,000 euro. As a US citizen, I am eligible for these funds. I have spent 800hrs learning Swedish and Czech, contacted expat communities to learn how to rent an apartment, learned about visas, compiled documents including proof of financial reserves for the authorities, and learned how psychologists operate in these countries. How can I best present myself to these PIs?" See the difference?

I've read some of your other posts and I'm familiar with your attitude so I don't think I will engage with you beyond this post. Your tone and condescending attitude is the reason I was reluctant to join SDN. I understand that you feel I am naive. I am, in fact, familiar with Brexit and the fact that counseling is "counselling" in the UK, if that is what you were referring to. The reason I was interested in the UK specifically is not relevant to you nor is it something I'm willing to discuss in this post, but thank you for your assumption that it is because I just don't know it's not part of the EU anymore. I also am familiar with the intricacies of travel and what is needed in order to try to work/study/move abroad, including cultural differences, the implications for ethical practice, the process of finding a job, and the process of getting a visa. My post was meant to point me in a general good direction for what I should be looking at and places/programs I should consider, as I think I made pretty clear. I am aware that I don't even know the nuances of all the factors involved, like you have so graciously thoroughly detailed. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask for guidance considering the fact that I am aware I don't know all of the things I don't know.

I also wonder what exactly you think I am doing by joining by SDN and asking the question, if not expending effort and and personal drive? Or should I know the answers to everything before I even begin?

 

[psych.meout]

I've read some of your other posts and I'm familiar with your attitude so I don't think I will engage with you beyond this post. Your tone and condescending attitude is the reason I was reluctant to join SDN. I understand that you feel I am naive. I am, in fact, familiar with Brexit and the fact that counseling is "counselling" in the UK, if that is what you were referring to. The reason I was interested in the UK specifically is not relevant to you nor is it something I'm willing to discuss in this post, but thank you for your assumption that it is because I just don't know it's not part of the EU anymore. I also am familiar with the intricacies of travel and what is needed in order to try to work/study/move abroad, including cultural differences, the implications for ethical practice, the process of finding a job, and the process of getting a visa. My post was meant to point me in a general good direction for what I should be looking at and places/programs I should consider, as I think I made pretty clear. I am aware that I don't even know the nuances of all the factors involved, like you have so graciously thoroughly detailed. I don't think it's unreasonable for me to ask for guidance considering the fact that I am aware I don't know all of the things I don't know.

I also wonder what exactly you think I am doing by joining by SDN and asking the question, if not expending effort and and personal drive? Or should I know the answers to everything before I even begin?

You might not like his tone, but he has been mostly right here. You will inevitably have faculty and supervisors give you negative feedback during grad school, for both your research and clinical training, and not all of them will deliver it in a manner you find amenable. This doesn't mean that they aren't correct or aren't providing you with useful information. It's very important to be able to separate what is correct and useful from how you feel about how it was delivered.

Right now I'm choosing between a PsyD and a PhD in the US (leaning towards a PhD if I can manage to get an acceptance after getting more research experience), but I'm also considering going to the UK for a DClinPsy or a DPsych (or even a PhD there?? idk).

This is a good example of what he was talking about in terms of you claiming to have investigated these matters and being cognizant of the issues. The UK clinical psych PhD is solely a research degree and involves zero clinical training. It is not comparable to the US or Canadian PhD. This is incompatible with your stated goal of being a clinician.

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

You might not like his tone, but he has been mostly right here. You will inevitably have faculty and supervisors give you negative feedback during grad school, for both your research and clinical training, and not all of them will deliver it in a manner you find amenable. This doesn't mean that they aren't correct or aren't providing you with useful information. It's very important to be able to separate what is correct and useful from how you feel about how it was delivered.


This is a good example of what he was talking about in terms of you claiming to have investigated these matters and being cognizant of the issues. The UK clinical psych PhD is solely a research degree and involves zero clinical training. It is not comparable to the US or Canadian PhD. This is incompatible with your stated goal of being a clinician.

I remembered that the PhD was a research degree in the UK after I had already posted it and heavily edited it, and didn't want to edit it some more. I'm genuinely sorry I had forgotten that detail, and once I remembered, I decided that it didn't matter enough to go back. If you'd like to point out more minor details in my post so we can squabble rather than just address the original question, which I made very clear, then go ahead.

You guys are not my clinical or my research mentors. We are on an online forum where you are volunteering advice. I'm not going to grovel, and I expect to not be disrespected in any area of my life, no matter (and especially because of) the power differentials.

Might I add that I'm not writing a formal research paper here. I shouldn't have to prove my knowledge or perfection on an online forum. Either take my question in good faith and answer it, or don't and leave me in peace. I don't have family members in any related field, including academia, nor mentors who are knowledgeable about this area, nor is there any other online forum where I can ask these questions besides maybe reddit, as far as I know. There is no straightforward answer for my questions. You guys are part of the ivory tower of academia. I understand I am lucky to ask you questions, but like I said, you're volunteering information. There is no need to be rude if you're here voluntarily.

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

@PsyDr @psych.meout Since, like so many other SDN threads, this has devolved to me being bullied for asking a simple question and trying to learn, then I'm wondering: What is a better way for me to have posed my question? Since everybody seems to have wished that I'd written it using their particular words, chosen very meticulously and critically, please feel free to write my post for me and then give me the answer. Since clearly you know what I meant, but just want to nitpick rather than just give me helpful advice.

Edit: Never mind, I've decided to lock this thread. The people who were going to give me helpful advice and discussion have already done so, and I am very grateful to them. I am also grateful to @PsyDr for giving me more info about what to look into, which I suppose is what I wanted, even if he did it in the most unnecessarily condescending way possible and left me with a lot more questions than answers (and I know he has the answers to those too but like the cutie little troll he is, he won't hand over those answers either).

Anyway, in conclusion, y'all crazy over here at SDN!!!

 

[aspiringdclinpsy]

Hello everyone! I am writing a bit of an update for anybody in the future who might find this post, so that they won't be discouraged by the above comments. However, I'm also writing it because I wish to prove to the people above, particularly @PsyDr, that their rudeness, condescension, and pessimism were all entirely unwarranted and I have succeeded in reaching my goals, and will continue to do so, without their help.

Despite the pessimistic feedback I received above, I have been accepted to a counselling position in the NHS in London, and will be moving there this summer. I am also just a few months away from obtaining my second master's in psychology and, once that is official, I am hopeful that I will be accepted to the British Psychological Society. (I am hopeful not out of blind optimism but because I have received feedback from the BPS admissions committee to that effect.) Both BPS membership and experience in the NHS are important for acceptance to a clinical psychology doctoral program in the UK. Not only that, but I have been accepted to a US clinical psychology degree program, which I have deferred until August 2023 entry. Therefore, despite what @PsyDr had to say, I am reaching my goals of having an international career and obtaining my doctorate (whether it is in the US or the UK I'm still not sure, but it's looking like both will be an option). All of these updates come only 4 months after I was told that I was not spending enough time and effort to reach my goals, and that I did not have the drive to be successful.

What's more, at the time of my original post as well as now, I continue to have not one but several wonderful, in-person mentors who treat me with respect and positivity while providing me with honest feedback. The information here on SDN is valuable, but I want to be a voice of reason for anybody who ever reads this thread in the future to not be discouraged by the several pedants and jerks who spend their time here and claim to have my best interests at heart.