Demand For Podiatrists to Surge in Next Decade: Study

[IlizaRob]

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Many of you may have already seen this article. This came from Fox news. I also saw it posted on yahoo news and breitbart. You are all making a great choice by going into podiatric medicine!

For young Americans looking for job security in a lagging economy, entering the field of podiatric medicine -- which currently boasts 15,000 doctors nationwide -- may be a step in the right direction. A recent workforce study indicates that the nation's eight colleges of podiatric medicine would have to triple their graduates between now and 2014 in order to meet growing population demands.

The study, conducted by the Center for Health Workforce Studies at the School of Public Health, University at Albany, attributes an increase in foot problems as a result of growing obesity, diabetes and aging rates to have a direct impact on the profession. In 2002, podiatrists provided close to 40 percent of all foot care services in the United States, compared to 13 percent for orthopedic physicians and 37 percent for all other physicians, including primary care doctors. Podiatrists are medically and surgically trained to diagnose and treat disorders, diseases, and injuries of the foot, ankle and lower extremity. Podiatrists are typically older on average than the overall U.S. labor force. In fact, the professions' median age of 45 will certainly contribute to future occupational demands in the next 10 to 15 years.

"The field of podiatry is really one of the most specialized in all of medicine. And anyone who has become a podiatrist knows that the payoffs associated with becoming a Doctor of Podiatric Medicine are priceless," said Dr. Christian Robertozzi, APMA president. "But when it all boils down to it, most medical students are concerned about what their salaries will be once they enter the workforce. Because the supply is less than the demand for podiatrists at the moment, the median income for our profession is at an all-time high."

Read the full article by clicking on any link below

http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/...-podiatric-medicine-surge-years_470465_1.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/200802...ric_medicine_to_surge_over_the_next_six_years

http://www.breitbart.com/article.ph...4&show_article=1&state=-1%7C0|0|0|0|0|0|1|0|0

 

[Stafocker]

Many of you may have already seen this article. This came from Fox news. I also saw it posted on yahoo news and breitbart. You are all making a great choice by going into podiatric medicine!




Read the full article by clicking on any link below

http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/...-podiatric-medicine-surge-years_470465_1.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/200802...ric_medicine_to_surge_over_the_next_six_years

http://www.breitbart.com/article.ph...614&show_article=1&state=-1|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|0|0

check out the forbes link too, it's surprising how much (or how little) other specialties make.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

check out the forbes link too, it's surprising how much (or how little) other specialties make.

What link?

 

[Stafocker]

What link?

http://www.forbes.com/2007/06/04/jobs-careers-compensation-lead-careers-cx_pm_0604jobs.html

 

[roadwarrior]

thanks guys.

according to my md/do friends, podiatric physicians are one step away from living on the street in terms of salary, respect, etc. so much for "friends." lol.
so hearing this is cool to say the least.

but seriously, doesn't all the talk from disgruntled pod physicians from back in the day..coupled with the misinformation on sdn and other sites about what a pod can do or how "meaningful" it is...bother you guys sometimes? that of all the professions that are profiled on sdn's main page, podiatric medicine gets the most acrid comments?

dunno. i'm not an overly sensitive guy..but still.

 

[MaseratiGT]

thanks guys.

according to my md/do friends, podiatric physicians are one step away from living on the street in terms of salary, respect, etc. so much for "friends." lol.
so hearing this is cool to say the least.

but seriously, doesn't all the talk from disgruntled pod physicians from back in the day..coupled with the misinformation on sdn and other sites about what a pod can do or how "meaningful" it is...bother you guys sometimes? that of all the professions that are profiled on sdn's main page, podiatric medicine gets the most acrid comments?

dunno. i'm not an overly sensitive guy..but still.

If we all let the things that people said about us, in more ways than podiatry, get to us, we would all be very unhappy people.

In reality, the only respect that I really WANT and work for, is that of my future patients. We'll always get referrals because we are THE specialists of the foot and ankle!

 

[NatCh]

according to my md/do friends, podiatric physicians are one step away from living on the street in terms of salary, respect, etc.

Are these MD/DO friends of yours physicians in practice, or are they pre-meds who intend to go to MD or DO school, because I find there's a huge difference in attitude between those who've "been there" versus those who haven't even started yet. Most of the smack-talk seems to come from pre-meds.

 

[roadwarrior]

good point. most are in their third year...some in carribean. but you are right, i guess most of the "smack" comes other pre-meds.

 

[jonwill]

good point. most are in their third year...some in carribean. but you are right, i guess most of the "smack" comes other pre-meds.

Yea, what people consistently fail to realize is that nearly ALL of our business comes from MD referrals. But yea, they hate us!!!

 

[HenryH]

From the article:

"Because the supply is less than the demand for podiatrists at the moment, the median income for our profession is at an all-time high."

Does anyone know when the supply of new podiatry graduates is expected to satisfy the demand for practitioners?

 

[APMAHelp]

The workforce study revealed that the eight (soon to be nine) pod schools around the country will have to triple their graduation numbers to meet the demands by 2014 -- a large number, by anyone's standards. So to answer your question, no one really knows exactly when supply will meet the demand -- but what we do know is that right now it's vital for everyone currently involved in podiatric medicine to get the word out to those "sitting on the fence" about choosing a medical profession, and let them know that entering podiatric medical school is one of the smartest career choices they could choose to make!

 

[diabeticfootdr]

The workforce study revealed that the eight (soon to be nine) pod schools around the country will have to triple their graduation numbers to meet the demands by 2014 -- a large number, by anyone's standards. So to answer your question, no one really knows exactly when supply will meet the demand -- but what we do know is that right now it's vital for everyone currently involved in podiatric medicine to get the word out to those "sitting on the fence" about choosing a medical profession, and let them know that entering podiatric medical school is one of the smartest career choices they could choose to make!

The pod schools are completely tuition driven. We have to be careful that this is not a "carte blanche" for the schools to increase their numbers irresponsibly (by taking poorly qualified students). There is a residency program shortage predicted in another couple years. Currently the programs could not support such a large increase in graduating students. If students graduate and can't find a residency, then the profession will have bad publicity and even fewer qualified students will want to enter.

LCR

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

The pod schools are completely tuition driven. We have to be careful that this is not a "carte blanche" for the schools to increase their numbers irresponsibly (by taking poorly qualified students). There is a residency program shortage predicted in another couple years. Currently the programs could not support such a large increase in graduating students. If students graduate and can't find a residency, then the profession will have bad publicity and even fewer qualified students will want to enter.

LCR

👍👍👍

 

[SportPOD]

The pod schools are completely tuition driven. We have to be careful that this is not a "carte blanche" for the schools to increase their numbers irresponsibly (by taking poorly qualified students). There is a residency program shortage predicted in another couple years. Currently the programs could not support such a large increase in graduating students. If students graduate and can't find a residency, then the profession will have bad publicity and even fewer qualified students will want to enter.

LCR

Well said. 👍

 

[Stafocker]

The pod schools are completely tuition driven. We have to be careful that this is not a "carte blanche" for the schools to increase their numbers irresponsibly (by taking poorly qualified students). There is a residency program shortage predicted in another couple years. Currently the programs could not support such a large increase in graduating students. If students graduate and can't find a residency, then the profession will have bad publicity and even fewer qualified students will want to enter.

LCR

great point LCR. Why do you think APMA forgot to mention this?

 

[OSUDDS]

ill keep podiatry my dirty little secret

 

[preDPM]

A lot of posts in this forum state vastly different salary ranges (40k-600k!!). Although the APMA, etc state an average of 150k or 270k, it is still difficult to for someone new to the field to guage the real truth.

 

[APMAHelp]

The APMA is well aware that there need to be additional residency positions to support additional students. They have been working on this issue for a number of years and will not support the colleges adding additional slots before there are enough residency positions to support those additional graduates. The Council on Podiatric Medical Education (CPME) monitors both the number of students colleges can admit and the residency programs. Please be assured that the profession is working diligently to make sure there are more residency positions available than graduates to fill those positions

 

[JEWmongous]

The APMA is well aware that there need to be additional residency positions to support additional students. They have been working on this issue for a number of years and will not support the colleges adding additional slots before there are enough residency positions to support those additional graduates. The Council on Podiatric Medical Education (CPME) monitors both the number of students colleges can admit and the residency programs. Please be assured that the profession is working diligently to make sure there are more residency positions available than graduates to fill those positions

Just curious, if this year ends the time when surplus residencies exist (ie more residencies than graduates), then how did yall- the APMA- approve opening up an entire new podiatric medical college - at Western University of the Health Sciences??? It should be a great program and all but I'm a bit concerned. This initial first year class size will be 50 students. Not all those will graduate but still, they will be applying for residencies at some point down the road.

 

[APMAHelp]

The new college of podiatric medicine at Western University has not yet received accreditation from the Council on Podiatric Medical Education. One of the stipulations that they will be required to prove is that there are enough (or will be enough) residencies for their graduates. One is integrally tied into the other.

 

[diabeticfootdr]

Who are you? Your "Status" shows: School Admin.

Are you a staffer for the APMA? An admissions counselor for a school? A doctor?

LCR

 

[TheBee]

I have spoken with a lot of very intelligent MDs/DOs/dentists/pharmacists/PAs and most have praised my decision for going into podiatry. They might give different responses when you ask about their careers, however. I think it's like anything else, it's what you make of it, and all about how much work you want to put into it.

I hope that podiatry does catch on with more people. For whatever reason dentistry has really blossomed in the past few years, and those schools are reporting higher applicant numbers than ever. This is great for their profession because their students have better GPAs, DAT, EC stats than ever before. I think a trend like that can only stand to strengthen a profession. Don't you think?

 

[IlizaRob]

They have been working on this issue for a number of years and will not support the colleges adding additional slots before there are enough residency positions to support those additional graduates.

I understand that the APMA does not "support" colleges adding additional slots but what does that really mean? Does the APMA have any say over how many students a school can accept? I think that some schools should have capped their student matriculation a long time ago.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I understand that the APMA does not "support" colleges adding additional slots but what does that really mean? Does the APMA have any say over how many students a school can accept? I think that some schools should have capped their student matriculation a long time ago.

No the CPME governs the school size not the APMA. I think that for every spot added by Western other schools should have to lose those spots. That will greatly effect those who make these decisions.

 

[evander]

I'd first like to say that I agree that podiatry is an awesome profession to be entering right now.
I just wanted to point out that the source of this article is not fox news, nor yahoo, but actually the APMA. Not to be negative, just wanted to point out the possible bias. I certainly hope the future is as bright as the study forsees!

Many of you may have already seen this article. This came from Fox news. I also saw it posted on yahoo news and breitbart. You are all making a great choice by going into podiatric medicine!




Read the full article by clicking on any link below

http://www.foxbusiness.com/article/...-podiatric-medicine-surge-years_470465_1.html

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usnw/200802...ric_medicine_to_surge_over_the_next_six_years

http://www.breitbart.com/article.ph...614&show_article=1&state=-1|0|0|0|0|0|0|1|0|0

 

[WannaBeDPM]

The new college of podiatric medicine at Western University has not yet received accreditation from the Council on Podiatric Medical Education. One of the stipulations that they will be required to prove is that there are enough (or will be enough) residencies for their graduates. One is integrally tied into the other.

Are you asking us to believe that there is a chance that the Pod school at Western University is NOT going to gain accreditation? Does anyone else believe this? I seriously doubt it will have a problem gaining accreditation....it's going to be a great school with DO coupling....and it's foolish to think it won't gain accreditation....
Anyone else agree or is it just me?
👍

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Are you asking us to believe that there is a chance that the Pod school at Western University is NOT going to gain accreditation? Does anyone else believe this? I seriously doubt it will have a problem gaining accreditation....it's going to be a great school with DO coupling....and it's foolish to think it won't gain accreditation....
Anyone else agree or is it just me?
👍

Agreed. I have a hard time believing that many of the people that make these decisions are not swayed by the prospect of more students and therefore more money. The APMA has to be worried about what ACFAS did and how it will effect their membership. Having more students means they have a chance for more members.

 

[Feli]

Agreed. I have a hard time believing that many of the people that make these decisions are not swayed by the prospect of more students and therefore more money. The APMA has to be worried about what ACFAS did and how it will effect their membership. Having more students means they have a chance for more members.

I don't think that the ACFAS changes really have anything to do with the issue. APMA will be just fine one way or another. Even if the two orgainzations don't work something out, there are plenty of members for each (and many DPMs who will remain in both).

Podiatry does need to expand, but it can only expand as quickly as quality residency programs and spots can be added. As jon said, residency training is now required for a state license. Podiatry is really becoming mainstream medicine, and many other specialists are realizing (and expecting) what well trained DPMs are capable of, medically and surgically. If we end with a situation where grads aren't getting residencies or the residencies are inadequate, it will set the profession back greatly.

Western should get accredited if it's a solid program (my magic 8ball says "yes, definitely"), and other schools should get shut down or their seats reduced if they are not providing adequate curriculum or are consistently graduating many incompetent students.

 

[biocmp]

I agree whole heartedly with what Feli posted above. This is why i am so impressed with the attrition rate at AZPOD. When a profession becomes harder to enter, and the graduates are better prepared, only then can you expect to pull the qualified applicants. This in turn starts to change the public perception of what a Podiatrist is vs. what it was.

This is very important, because it not only increases the applicant pool for selection of stronger candidates, it also allows some of the schools to be judged on their graduate's success rate on boards, placement, etc. There should at least be a minimum threshold which must be met, in order to stay open.

And public perception isn't everything, but it certainly helps to increase awareness of the training and types of students that podiatry schools are putting out!

Writing this gets me excited again, as I am in the process of deciding which professional route to take.

 

[OSUDDS]

I'd first like to say that I agree that podiatry is an awesome profession to be entering right now.
I just wanted to point out that the source of this article is not fox news, nor yahoo, but actually the APMA. Not to be negative, just wanted to point out the possible bias. I certainly hope the future is as bright as the study forsees!

i'd like to point out that if you read the article, the apma did not do the research

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I don't think that the ACFAS changes really have anything to do with the issue. APMA will be just fine one way or another. Even if the two orgainzations don't work something out, there are plenty of members for each (and many DPMs who will remain in both).

Podiatry does need to expand, but it can only expand as quickly as quality residency programs and spots can be added. As jon said, residency training is now required for a state license. Podiatry is really becoming mainstream medicine, and many other specialists are realizing (and expecting) what well trained DPMs are capable of, medically and surgically. If we end with a situation where grads aren't getting residencies or the residencies are inadequate, it will set the profession back greatly.

Western should get accredited if it's a solid program (my magic 8ball says "yes, definitely"), and other schools should get shut down or their seats reduced if they are not providing adequate curriculum or are consistently graduating many incompetent students.

I agree with everything you said. What I was trying to say is that APMA and ACFAS is not going to get in the way of expanding the profession. More students means more pods, more pods mean more members. That is all I was trying to say. I think that the APMA may do better than ACFAS if they make the right decisions about there board certification. ACFAS has such a hierarchy as displayed by ABPS. If ABPOPPM and the APMA allow residents to sit right after graduation(which is happening), and they get a surgical board. They may put themselves in a very powerful seat.

 

[Feli]

I agree with everything you said. What I was trying to say is that APMA and ACFAS is not going to get in the way of expanding the profession. More students means more pods, more pods mean more members. That is all I was trying to say. I think that the APMA may do better than ACFAS if they make the right decisions about there board certification. ACFAS has such a hierarchy as displayed by ABPS. If ABPOPPM and the APMA allow residents to sit right after graduation(which is happening), and they get a surgical board. They may put themselves in a very powerful seat.

That makes sense. It will be interesting to see what happens with the APMA and ACFAS. You make very good points about ABPOPPM coming back into prominence and having a golden opportunity to greatly increase their membership.

A number of ACFAS members are probably tired of paying dues for an organization that deals in a lot with issues that are of minor importance to them. On the other side, APMA will have a much tougher time with parity and other scope of practice issues if some of the most highly trained surgical pods aren't fully behind them.

I genuinely believe that the ACFAS policy change was simply to accomodate the members who were having headaches with their local APMA. If that's the case, it's not as big of an issue or dividing point as many intial prominent DPM reactions made it out to be. In the end, I'm just a student along for the ride...

 

[TheBee]

I agree whole heartedly with what Feli posted above. This is why i am so impressed with the attrition rate at AZPOD. When a profession becomes harder to enter, and the graduates are better prepared, only then can you expect to pull the qualified applicants. This in turn starts to change the public perception of what a Podiatrist is vs. what it was.

This is very important, because it not only increases the applicant pool for selection of stronger candidates, it also allows some of the schools to be judged on their graduate's success rate on boards, placement, etc. There should at least be a minimum threshold which must be met, in order to stay open.

And public perception isn't everything, but it certainly helps to increase awareness of the training and types of students that podiatry schools are putting out!

Writing this gets me excited again, as I am in the process of deciding which professional route to take.

I think selectivity in admissions given or interviews allotted could be impressive, however I don't think attrition is anything to look up to. AZPod lost such a large percentage of their classes, and I don't think that was intentional. The way I looked at it is that yes, I have a really great app now, but that doesn't mean squat after I start pod school. I'll be starting at square one just like everyone else. Who's to say one of those attrition statistics wouldn't be me? I'd like to hope not, but remember that all of those people who dropped out were pod hopefuls one day as well, and they must've had at least decent applications to get in.

I do wholeheartedly agree with you when you say a better applicant pool can only increase the rep of pods. I think that's the way things are going as well. A faculty member told me she read an article that said applications to health professions greatly increase when the economy is in the dump, so that might be stimulating more competition even now. I'll see if I can find it...

 

[biocmp]

Sorry Bee, maybe I didn't make my point clear enough. I'm not saying that I look up to and get excited about attrition rates. I think it is a good sign when a curriculum is tough. The ones who are still at AZpod earned it, and they know that they will at least be prepared to compete for residencies. (as will many other students from other schools)

Pod school will never be Med school, and that is a good thing. The specialty is what it is. Some people don't like the idea of being limited to the foot and ankle, others simply want prestige. Pod school is a fantastic field, much like dentistry, but it is not for the insecure or those seeking "to just be a doctor somehow".

If Podiatrists continue in their research efforts, and continue increasing their qualifications, the field will have no other choice, but to professionalize it's domain. Then it's all about public perception, and getting it out there. When people see the training that podiatrists go through, and the residencies/fellowships that are available (alongside the big dog Orthopedists) then perhaps the field will follow a similar path.

But it is up to the professional podiatrists to continue in the research, and find the best ways of treatment for all foot/ankle disorders, this lends credibility to the profession.

disclaimer: i'm a pre-med with no affiliation. I just wanted to clarify my point.

 

[TheBee]

Sorry Bee, maybe I didn't make my point clear enough. I'm not saying that I look up to and get excited about attrition rates. I think it is a good sign when a curriculum is tough. The ones who are still at AZpod earned it, and they know that they will at least be prepared to compete for residencies. (as will many other students from other schools)

Pod school will never be Med school, and that is a good thing. The specialty is what it is. Some people don't like the idea of being limited to the foot and ankle, others simply want prestige. Pod school is a fantastic field, much like dentistry, but it is not for the insecure or those seeking "to just be a doctor somehow".

If Podiatrists continue in their research efforts, and continue increasing their qualifications, the field will have no other choice, but to professionalize it's domain. Then it's all about public perception, and getting it out there. When people see the training that podiatrists go through, and the residencies/fellowships that are available (alongside the big dog Orthopedists) then perhaps the field will follow a similar path.

But it is up to the professional podiatrists to continue in the research, and find the best ways of treatment for all foot/ankle disorders, this lends credibility to the profession.

disclaimer: i'm a pre-med with no affiliation. I just wanted to clarify my point.

Yep, well said.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

Sorry Bee, maybe I didn't make my point clear enough. I'm not saying that I look up to and get excited about attrition rates. I think it is a good sign when a curriculum is tough. The ones who are still at AZpod earned it, and they know that they will at least be prepared to compete for residencies. (as will many other students from other schools)

Pod school will never be Med school, and that is a good thing. The specialty is what it is. Some people don't like the idea of being limited to the foot and ankle, others simply want prestige. Pod school is a fantastic field, much like dentistry, but it is not for the insecure or those seeking "to just be a doctor somehow".

If Podiatrists continue in their research efforts, and continue increasing their qualifications, the field will have no other choice, but to professionalize it's domain. Then it's all about public perception, and getting it out there. When people see the training that podiatrists go through, and the residencies/fellowships that are available (alongside the big dog Orthopedists) then perhaps the field will follow a similar path.

But it is up to the professional podiatrists to continue in the research, and find the best ways of treatment for all foot/ankle disorders, this lends credibility to the profession.

disclaimer: i'm a pre-med with no affiliation. I just wanted to clarify my point.

Here is another way to look at attrition rates, is not a reflection of the curriculum it is a reflection of the admission. The school may not have an understanding of which students will be successful at the school. This may have been the case for the 1st class at AZPOD.

As for pod school never being medical school I do agree with the spirit of your point. Pod school is commonly compared to dental school but they are very different circumstances. There are very few differences between the medical school curriculum and podiatric curriculum. You might be surprised if you look at the actual podiatric curriculum. You can compare the two programs at DMU or AZPOD for easy comparison.

http://www.dmu.edu/com/curriculum/courses/
http://www.dmu.edu/cpms/curriculum/

http://www.midwestern.edu/Arizona Catalog/
Click on AZPOD curriculum and AZCOM curriculum

 

[TheBee]

I was thinking it might also reflect the type of student support services at the school. i.e. is there tutoring available, career/life counseling, are there progress checkpoints, etc.?

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I was thinking it might also reflect the type of student support services at the school. i.e. is there tutoring available, career/life counseling, are there progress checkpoints, etc.?

I'm sorry but I don't think that student support services should be present in medical school or even matter. Does anyone else have a problem with their doctor needing a tutor to make it through pharmacology or physical diagnosis?

 

[deleted100801]

I'm sorry but I don't think that student support services should be present in medical school or even matter. Does anyone else have a problem with their doctor needing a tutor to make it through pharmacology or physical diagnosis?

It's fair for an individual to seek assistance if they are having trouble with a certain aspect of a course. Health professionals always seek advice from colleagues, do they not?

On the other hand, if the tutoring doesn't help and the person gets an F in the course, I wouldn't want them treating me. haha.

 

[iceman69]

I think the point he was trying to make was that the spoon feeding has to stop at some point. If a professional student cannot learn the material that they need to know and understand for their profession, then that student should not be allowed to pass. For example, if a dentist cannot find a cavities in his patients mouthes, then he probably shouldn't be a dentist, right? Or for that matter, should a surgeon who cannot suture be allowed to finish his residency? I believe that this is the point he was making. Team work is grand, so long as you have a good players on your team that know what they're doing. Think of the Chicago Bulls in the era of Jordan and Pippen.

 

[TheBee]

I was thinking of tutoring for issues with courses like Biochem, Neuroscience, etc., not "gee I just can't figure out how to trim toenails, can someone work with me after class" kind of stuff. If you didn't participate in study groups, visit a TA, or go get some help from time to time with ug classes like ochem, then I congratulate you, you are a much smarter person than I.

Also when I visited AZPod, a couple students mentioned that some of their attrition was because the students had some personal problems. I don't know exactly what resources are available at that school, but it made me think about the importance of having a life/career counselor available to students. I also don't know what happened in the lives of those students they were referring to, but I can think of a few life crises that could happen that would really rock my world, and would appreciate having someone to talk to as well. It's not that you can always anticipate things like that happening, but it's always good to have support around.

My very good friend actually was headed off to medical school in the fall, but suffered a massive stroke a few months ago. She wasn't in school yet, but would have definitely needed a lot of support had she been. Plus parents can die unexpectedly, etc.

 

[Dr_Feelgood]

I was thinking of tutoring for issues with courses like Biochem, Neuroscience, etc., not "gee I just can't figure out how to trim toenails, can someone work with me after class" kind of stuff. If you didn't participate in study groups, visit a TA, or go get some help from time to time with ug classes like ochem, then I congratulate you, you are a much smarter person than I.

Also when I visited AZPod, a couple students mentioned that some of their attrition was because the students had some personal problems. I don't know exactly what resources are available at that school, but it made me think about the importance of having a life/career counselor available to students. I also don't know what happened in the lives of those students they were referring to, but I can think of a few life crises that could happen that would really rock my world, and would appreciate having someone to talk to as well. It's not that you can always anticipate things like that happening, but it's always good to have support around.

My very good friend actually was headed off to medical school in the fall, but suffered a massive stroke a few months ago. She wasn't in school yet, but would have definitely needed a lot of support had she been. Plus parents can die unexpectedly, etc.

I'm sorry but the support at school is not as important as the support at home. One, I was a tutor. Two, I had 2 great grandparents and 2 grandparents, 1 aunt, and 1 uncle die while I was at school. At times you have to make choices. I was not able to attend most of the funerals b/c of school. I used my family to support me not the school, but that is my life. We had a student that hit and killed a person while driving home. So things happen, but I worked w/ student support and know they are overpaid.

Also, I was not saying counseling I was talking about educational support. Finally attrition rate does not take into account losing students to other programs such as DO/MD or DDS. My last thought is do you think that the school is going to tell you that they lost students b/c they didn't know what kind of student would be successful. They are selling you a product, and if you ever worked in sales you accent certain things to explain shortcomings, i.e. deflection.