Dental Implants

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Dr_Oh_DMD

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I was just wondering how many general dentists do the entire implant procedure on their own. Do they have to refer the patient to the oral surgeon for the actual implant placement or they can place it in their office by themself? How about those classes that are offered at many schools for implant surgery. Are they good enough to teach a GP to do implants or there is much more to what they teach there?

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Myself personally(and this goes for my partner too), we've taken the courses and are "trained" to place the implant sytem that we use (ITI). However, we refer all placements out to one of our local oral surgeons. Plain and simple, its a volume thing, the more you place, the better you place them and he places way more per year with all the offices he has as a referral base than we would in our office. Plus, if the need for sinus lifts and/or bone grafting is present, I've done them in my residency, but definately don't want to do them now.

The actual placement of the impant is really quite simple (I've placed about 25 - mainly denture and single posterior cases), after all if you think about it, its really just a glorified post:idea: :D Plus if the patients want IV sedation for the procedure, my OS can do it whereas in my office we'd have to wait about 2 to 3 months to get my local dental anesthiologist into the office.

It's just easier for me(and about 80+% of all general dentists) to let the oral surgeons/periodontists place the implant body and then just restore the integrated implant a few months down the road.
 
Dr. Jeff,

I noticed your comment about a dental anesthesiologist. I have recently heard of this specialty and would like to find out more information. Could you shed some light on what the job entails; training, opportunities etc.

Thanks.
 
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The Ohio State University has a program for dental anesthesiaology. You can look up info on their website about the program.
 
Originally posted by captaintripps
Dr. Jeff,

I noticed your comment about a dental anesthesiologist. I have recently heard of this specialty and would like to find out more information. Could you shed some light on what the job entails; training, opportunities etc.

Thanks.

I'll tell you what I know about that branch of dentistry. First off, it has its own specific residency, which often runs along with a medical anesthesiology program to a very similar extent. I know that very few schools offer this type of residency currently.

As for what the job entails. Here is how it goes when the dental anesthelogist(DA) comes to my office. After I've identified a patient whom I feel that needs conscious sedation for his/her treatment. My office calls up the DA's office, and due to the demand for him in my area, a date gets scheduled about 2 to 3 months down the road(read as a very strong opportunity for DA's out there).

When the treatment day arrives(in the mean time, the DA has contacted my patient and obtained his own medical history/ past anesthesia records if appropriate/ ordered any lab tests above and beyond what I may order(often when I'm usig a DA I'll be doing multiple extractions on medically compromised patients on multiple meds)). The DA arrrives at my office with all the anesthesia meds/monitors/resusitation equipment that may be needed about 45 minutes before the scheduled start of the procedure. After he's set everything up, he'll discuss what I'm planning on doing that day, and my impressions of the patient to help gauge how long a procedure it may be and how much/ what type of anesthesia may be best for the patient(this is just him double checking since I tell him when I'm scheduling the anticipated procedures/treatment times and in his Med Hx that he takes he's talked with the patient about their apprehension levels).

Once the patient has arrived and is seated, and he and I have greeted them, the DA will then set up all the monitors and make his assessment if the patient is medically able to tolerate the procedure that day(the only time I've had a procedure canceled is when the patient who was suppossed to be NPO(nothing by mouth from midnight the night before on to reduced the risk of aspiration if vomiting occurs under anesthesia) ate a full breakfast before coming to the office prior to the 9AM scheduled time :mad: ). The DA will then begin to administer the sedation, and will then get the patient numb for me.

Then I goto work, all the while the DA is monitoring the patient and maintaining adequate sedation levels. When I'm done, the DA monitors the patient while they're "waking up" and then he'll discharge the patient to an escort when the appriopriate sedation discharge guidelines have been met.

The vast majority of the time, the anesthesia cost(and it's often $1500 to $2000 for a 1/2 days treatment) can be covered under medical insurance if not under dental insurance.

The DA provides a great service for those few patients that need them. Given the nature of what they do though, the only drawback can be the much higher malpractice insurance rates that they have compared to a general dentist. For example my malpractice yearly premium is just under $1250(yes thats the correct # and as you can see its WAY LESS than what our medical colleagues pay) for a 1,000,000/3,000,000 policy. My DA's yearly amount is about $12,000(I actually asked him about this when he was last in the office in October) for a 3,000,000/5,000,000 policy. Other than that it has a low overhead(you don't need your own office if you have a cell phone and a palm pilot, and all the equipment you need can fit in the trunk of that sporty Mercedes or BMW that you want) and flexible hours.
 
Great, thanks for the responses. Dental Anesthesiology - here I come...
 
How does the anesthesia training of an oral surgeon differ from that of a dental anethesiaologist? What cases would a GP teamed with a DA do vs. what an OMS would handle?
 
Originally posted by MarkFitzsimmons
How does the anesthesia training of an oral surgeon differ from that of a dental anethesiaologist? What cases would a GP teamed with a DA do vs. what an OMS would handle?

In general, the training an oral surgeon receives vs. a DA is the same, but shorter duration. Most(probably all) OMFS residencies will have as part of the program an anesthesia rotation where the OMFS resident is on the service of the hospital's anesthesia department. Additionally in the OMFS clinics, the residents will do 100's of IV sedations during their residency. In the office though, atleast in my state, the IV sedation trained OMFS can't both do the procedure and administer the sedation concurrently, so the OS will have the license to do the procedure, but is actually supervising the nurse who works for the OS.

In general in my office when I use the DA, its for the extreme phobic patient for large scale restorative/endo/crown and bridge procedures(I'll generally do all their work(less crown inserts) in that 1 visit, so I may be working on that pateint for upwards of 6 hours if its a really big case:wow: . Occasionally, in large extraction cases on the phobic, the patient will feel more comfortable with my personality than the OMFS's and ask if I can do the ext's, and thats when I'll get the DA involved(I've only had 1 such of these cases in the last 5 years).

Myself personally, I'm actaully eligibale to obtain my IV sedation certification. I've taken all the didactic courses during my residency and have done the prerequiste number of sedation cases under the guidance of IV certified dentists. However I don't want to be certified. !st off, my malpractice insurance would go WAY, WAY up. Secondly, wors amongst the "wacko's"(the largest %'age of folks that end up getting IV sedation for treatment{wisdom teeth and large scale extraction cases excluded}) will seek out you and your magic drugs, and I've already got quite the eclectic patient pool without any sedation ability:rolleyes: :D :wow: And lastily to make it financially worthwhile bewteen the added malpractice ins costs, and the added monitors needed, and the added expense of having an anesthesia nurse present, I'd have to do a sedation case or 2 a day, and that volume just isn't in my practice(or atleast ethically it's not).

So, all that considered, I'll just keep calling up Dr. M(my local DA) the couple of times a year I need him. But for refernce sake, he's likely about 5 to 7 years aay from retirement age, and to my knowledge he's the only DA in Connecticut(read as big potential job opportunity)
 
Would a DA work exclusively in private offices? Or could/would they work in a hospital as well?
 
Typically the DA domain is the private office, since in the hospital anesthesia is solely the domain of the anesthiology group that serves that hospital. And boy do they charge for it. We just got the bill for my wife's epidural during her delivery, and those 10 of so ml's of 0.5% marcaine with 1:200,000 epi, the catheter tubing, the pca pump and the anesthiologist 10 minutes of time rang up a charge to the tune of $1200(My cost for the equivalent volume of Marcaine is about $1:wow: )

Funny story though about the epidural, as the anesthilogist was getting ready to start the epidural, my wife goes to him "I hope your as gentile with the injection as my husband is!" The anesthesiologist looks at me and ask me "what are you a dentist or something?":D :clap:
 
Originally posted by DrJeff
We just got the bill for my wife's epidural during her delivery, and those 10 of so ml's of 0.5% marcaine with 1:200,000 epi, the catheter tubing, the pca pump and the anesthiologist 10 minutes of time rang up a charge to the tune of $1200

Same here. $1400 that would have been worth every penny, or so I hear. :D The after insurance cost to me, $87. Hah! Those MD's are taking it in the shorts!


Rob
 
Originally posted by no2thdk999
Same here. $1400 that would have been worth every penny, or so I hear. :D The after insurance cost to me, $87. Hah! Those MD's are taking it in the shorts!


Rob

Yes, it was worth every last penny. I was almost tempted to joke with the anesthiologist, "use Articaine!! That stuff can numb up anything!!";) :D

After seeing my wife's "comfort level" during the delivery, I now have a new perspective of when I ask a female patient to describe a toothache pain and she says "it's worse than childbirth!":wow:
 
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Off topic, but congrats on the new addition to the family.
 
Some very interesting stuff in this thread. The dentist I work with has a license to adminster IV sedation and he says it makes him the preferred dentist in town for people who strongly prefer to be under when they undergo their procedure. He had to do a proper residency in order to gain licensure. Since he did this many years ago, I'm not sure whether the path he took still applies today.

One thing that is definitely a problem is the "seekers." These are the people who are looking to get prescriptions for pain medications so they can use and sell on the black market. Sometimes I really worry about this, and I asked him if he runs cameras at the office. I really think you need extra security to handle these sorts of issues sometimes (just in case). I believe you can get licensed through a 1 year program at Pittsburgh.
 
Myself personally(and this goes for my partner too), we've taken the courses and are "trained" to place the implant sytem that we use (ITI). However, we refer all placements out to one of our local oral surgeons. Plain and simple, its a volume thing, the more you place, the better you place them and he places way more per year with all the offices he has as a referral base than we would in our office. Plus, if the need for sinus lifts and/or bone grafting is present, I've done them in my residency, but definately don't want to do them now.

The actual placement of the impant is really quite simple (I've placed about 25 - mainly denture and single posterior cases), after all if you think about it, its really just a glorified post:idea: :D Plus if the patients want IV sedation for the procedure, my OS can do it whereas in my office we'd have to wait about 2 to 3 months to get my local dental anesthiologist into the office.

It's just easier for me(and about 80+% of all general dentists) to let the oral surgeons/periodontists place the implant body and then just restore the integrated implant a few months down the road.


I thought the oral surgeon then refers the patient to a prosthodontist?
 
Jeff, how is the need for DA in CT now after several more DA residency programs have opened up?
 
Jeff, how is the need for DA in CT now after several more DA residency programs have opened up?

To my knowledge there's now 3 DA's in the entire state of CT, and we've got about 2500 licensed dentists these days. The 1 that I know very well, lets just say that he doesn't have too many days where he's not in atleast 1, if not 2 or 3 docs offices administering sedation
 
I thought the oral surgeon then refers the patient to a prosthodontist?

I suppose they could, but then that oral surgeon probably wouldn't get too many more implant referrals from DrJeff.

Restoring implants is something that's taught in every dental school curriculum now, and the comfort level for each individual practitioner is up to them. However, if DrJeff thought a case was out of his comfort zone and needed to be restored by a prosthodontist (About how often does that happen DrJeff? :laugh:), he'd probably send them to the prosthodontist FIRST, not the implant surgeon.
 
I suppose they could, but then that oral surgeon probably wouldn't get too many more implant referrals from DrJeff.

Restoring implants is something that's taught in every dental school curriculum now, and the comfort level for each individual practitioner is up to them. However, if DrJeff thought a case was out of his comfort zone and needed to be restored by a prosthodontist (About how often does that happen DrJeff? :laugh:), he'd probably send them to the prosthodontist FIRST, not the implant surgeon.

Yup. If I'm sending a bunch of patients to a specialist, and then without any communication back to me, and I'm suddenly not seeing a bunch of those referrals coming back to me for subsequent treatment. Chances are that specialist won't be seeing too many future referrals from me.

Plus, in general per the ADA code of conduct, a referral from a specialist directly to another specialist shouldn't happen with the original referring GP being informed of it. In implants, chances are that you wouldn't see too much specialist - specialist referrals, maybe an oral surgeon to periodontist for some grafting work (but thats assuming that the oral surgeon has 1st admitted that they can't do it better themselves ;):laugh: )

The most common specialist - specialist referral I see in my practice is when the orhtodontist I send most of my patients too needs some extractions and makes the direct referral (and drops me a letter say that he did) to my local oral surgeon, and that's a converstaion that I had with my local ortho a couple of years ago that I'm 100% fine with him making the referral that way.

Most of the time though if there isn't an open enough line of communication between the GP and a specialist, then chances are that some details will get missed at some point and the patient ends up not receiving as ideal care as possible and then the patient is frustrated with both the GP and the specialist and the GP is frustrated with the specialist and the specialist frustrated with the GP and nobody wins. Not a good scenario
 
One of my closest friends from dental school is a DA and also a pediatric dentist (and has an MD and an MPH...gotta be a 12 step program for letters after your name addiction). Even before the MD he would do GA work in a couple of hospitals around town. If it was a head/neck case, he could work under his own license. Anything else he could function like a CRNA under an MD anesthesiologist's direction. Now he goes to several pediatric dentists offices around the state providing in office sedation as well as working in the OR.

BTW, Pitt also has an outstanding DA program so take a look there as well.

Doing in office sedation can be great if you do it right, but you really need to make sure you monitor the patient carefully and have all the right meds/gear available in case something goes wrong. My DA friend has been an expert witness in several cases where people got sloppy, and in at least one case a kid died. Weekend sedation courses might sound appealing, but all that appeal will vanish the moment something goes south and you have no clue how to handle it. Then its not just your malpractice rates on the line...now its your license too.
 
Is it common/possible to get a job in a hospital (non dental related) as a DA?
 
I was just wondering how many general dentists do the entire implant procedure on their own. Do they have to refer the patient to the oral surgeon for the actual implant placement or they can place it in their office by themself? How about those classes that are offered at many schools for implant surgery. Are they good enough to teach a GP to do implants or there is much more to what they teach there?

In my job shadowing tours I was able to shadow a good number of dentists in my town and was able to observe a good number of implants placed and restored by GP's. There were also some guys who didn't want to touch anything but the crown after it was done. It was almost always to younger dentists (career wise) that were doing them and the older dentists referring them out. I wonder if this would be a trend due to more exposure to implants in dental school vs an established dentist who would need to get CE training to feel comfortable doing implants.
 
In my job shadowing tours I was able to shadow a good number of dentists in my town and was able to observe a good number of implants placed and restored by GP's. There were also some guys who didn't want to touch anything but the crown after it was done. It was almost always to younger dentists (career wise) that were doing them and the older dentists referring them out. I wonder if this would be a trend due to more exposure to implants in dental school vs an established dentist who would need to get CE training to feel comfortable doing implants.
I don’t think there is enough time for most dental schools to teach their students how to treatment plan, place, and restore implants. At most schools, implant cases are usually reserved for post grad OS, perio, and prosth residents. Most dentists I know tell me that they learn how to place implants by taking CE classes.

The reason many older dentists don’t place implants or do complex cases is they don’t have any more loans to pay back. There is no reason to risk their license by doing things that they are not good at. After 15-20 years of hard work, they get tired and just want just want to handle the simple, non-invasive procedures to avoid getting emergency phone calls after hours.

I’ve practiced orthodontics for 10+ years and I paid off all the loans (except for the home mortage). Unlike many young grad orthodontists, I don’t place TAD (an implant anchorage device for ortho). I don’t do soft tissue laser surgeries. I don’t do lingual braces. My offices don’t have high tech gadgets such as digital xray and come beam machine. I no longer go from door to door to meet the referring GPs. I just let my staff deliver the gifts to GPs’ offices. There are a few referring GPs that I have not even met or talked in person. I am not interested in taking and passing the clinical ABO exam to get certified. I feel I make enough money. Live is too short. There is no reason for me to lose sleep over the procedures that I am not very good at.

There are plenty of general dentists who think like me and those are the one who regularly refer their patients to my wife’s periodontal office.
 
I don’t think there is enough time for most dental schools to teach their students how to treatment plan, place, and restore implants. At most schools, implant cases are usually reserved for post grad OS, perio, and prosth residents. Most dentists I know tell me that they learn how to place implants by taking CE classes.

The reason many older dentists don’t place implants or do complex cases is they don’t have any more loans to pay back. There is no reason to risk their license by doing things that they are not good at. After 15-20 years of hard work, they get tired and just want just want to handle the simple, non-invasive procedures to avoid getting emergency phone calls after hours.

I’ve practiced orthodontics for 10+ years and I paid off all the loans (except for the home mortage). Unlike many young grad orthodontists, I don’t place TAD (an implant anchorage device for ortho). I don’t do soft tissue laser surgeries. I don’t do lingual braces. My offices don’t have high tech gadgets such as digital xray and come beam machine. I no longer go from door to door to meet the referring GPs. I just let my staff deliver the gifts to GPs’ offices. There are a few referring GPs that I have not even met or talked in person. I am not interested in taking and passing the clinical ABO exam to get certified. I feel I make enough money. Live is too short. There is no reason for me to lose sleep over the procedures that I am not very good at.

There are plenty of general dentists who think like me and those are the one who regularly refer their patients to my wife’s periodontal office.


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What he said! I know that personally as I close in on the 15 year mark, that I'd much rather spend my days doing single unit endo/crown cases than full mouth reconstructions. Much more predictable, much lower day to day stress level, and in the end much more profitable.

Do I still do some big, full mouth reconstruction cases. Yup. But I can honestly say that while the big cases from an intellectual treatment planning and sequencing standoint are fun to do every now and then. The stress level and chances of multiple "headaches" arising during the usually long course of treatment is quite great, and that part I don't enjoy
 
also i understand an anesthesiologist might be busy if he works at a hospital full time. Especially if the dental work that is offered is only part-time. So how about ER? An ER doctor would definitely be willing to work part-time. But are there any courses he might take to qualify to administer anesthesia?
 
I know a few crnas that do sedation in pediatric dental offices. Not sure an md would want to but sure they could. Does anyone know if a da can work in a hospital?
 
my GP does them. he tells me he did over 1000+ of them. he does them in office. He use mostly 2 stage and the first session usually takes 45 min
 
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