Why is it that dental schools make it so much more difficult on Asians in terms of acceptance? I know this may come off as unpopular but I'm being honest and would like to hear your feedback. The road is difficult enough as it is and then to have the actual institution/s making it even more difficult is heartbreaking. Maybe I am just venting because I don't know where else to go and I know life isn't fair but this just isn't right.
Dental School Admission Policy Biases Based on Race
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http://www.adea.org/dental_education_pathways/AFASA/transforming/Pages/Ch5studentDiversity.aspx
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Correct but now Asian dental students are accepted at an all time low rate, even lower in Caucasians in nearly all the schools that release their student profiles.
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Skip to the bottom. If they have reasonable claims they can basically do whatever they want.
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I know for medical schools you can find GPA and MCAT score averages by race and ethnicity, https://www.aamc.org/download/321498/data/factstablea18.pdf, but is there such data available for dental school? What statistics are you looking at to claim it's much difficult for Asians to get accepted into dental schools?
I understand, even though I don't necessarily agree with it, the diversity issue but it is so skewed.
There aren't alot of schools that release the details of how many applicants and enrollees they have. Most schools release student profiles only showing breakdown of percentage of students based on age, race, gender, and grades but they do not show the number of applicants and enrollees based on race. The only school I have found, thus far, is East Carolina University which has data from their class of 2015 to the class of 2021 and here is the breakdown of all 7 classes combined
Race: Applicants:Enrollees = Percentage
- Caucasian: 1718:251 = 14.61%
- African American: 323/60 = 18.58%
- Hispanic: 132/18 = 13.64%
- Asian: 564:31 = 5.50%
School of Dental Medicine | Enrolled Students | Class Profiles
So if you look at the data over a 7 year period, the acceptance rate between Caucasian, African-American, and Hispanic doesn't vary quite that much. But then the Asian acceptance rate is ridiculous; if diversity is the key, shouldn't the acceptance rates be fairly similar which gives everyone somewhat of an equal chance to get in?
In those 7 classes, there wasn't a single year where the Asian dental student acceptance rate was higher than 8.00%.
The highest acceptance rate for AA, His and Caucasian, respectively, over the 7 classes were: 26.47%, 33.33%, and 19.31%.
Also my own personal data from talking exactly 148 students who have been accepted, it's just as alarming alarming. From the 148 who were accepted (38 from SDN and and 110 from various Dental FB groups), the average DAT AA was 24.2 with the lowest accepted being 21 and the highest being 30. I know in the grand scheme of things, 148 students is still a small sample size but still telling none the less when the national average DAT of overall students accepted is for 2016 was 20.19.
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I don't think you can base your argument off of one school. Especially East Carolina, which I am pretty sure does not have a huge Asian population to begin with. The numbers would be different if you looked at a school like NYU or UCLA because they have higher percentages of Asians in both their schools and their cities.
Applicants/Enrollees is NOT the acceptance rate. Maybe there were more Asians accepted but declined the school due to its location, reputation or for whatever reason, who knows..
We can look at official DAT info as well. For 2009, which is the only info available as of now, Asians scored the highest in all areas except for RC where they come in 3rd out of 5 listed groups (Asn, AA, Cau, His, AMI) and had the highest average DAT AA score but the acceptance rate for Asians is even less than Caucasian/white students.
For the entering class of 2006, the enrollment rate for Asians was 34.65%. For AA, it was 40.43%, for Caucasians, it was 40.04% and for Hispanic, it was 42.12%. This was based on all first year applicants and enrollees for the 2006 year where there were 12,010 applicants and 4,599 enrollees.
I know it's nothing I can change and all I can do is be as well rounded as I can and score as well as I can. Just venting and I appreciate all of the feedback.
For the entering class of 2006, the enrollment rate for Asians was 34.65%. For AA, it was 40.43%, for Caucasians, it was 40.04% and for Hispanic, it was 42.12%. This was based on all first year applicants and enrollees for the 2006 year where there were 12,010 applicants and 4,599 enrollees.
I know it's nothing I can change and all I can do is be as well rounded as I can and score as well as I can. Just venting and I appreciate all of the feedback.
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It is because Asians’ academic successes and achievements, clearly the product of pervasive Asian privilege that has long plagued American society, makes it only fair to racially discriminate against them in order to achieve equality of outcome for all races.
Unfortunately, many people (or, in Stalin’s words, “useful idiots”), including many in positions of power, actually believe and act upon (i.e. racially discriminate on the basis of) the above idiocy.
I think the problem will be solved at the undergraduate level before it is dealt with for med school, dental school etc.
You mean UCLA, one of the two schools (other being UCSF) where race consideration in admissions is illegal? UCLA, one of the very few schools (another being UCSF) where Asians actually do, by pure magical coincidence, happen to have markedly high ratios of enrolled students to applicants when compared to other races?
I know you meant well in trying to defuse the controversy, but UCLA (UCSF as well) is like the ultimate fuel for OP's flame.
You mean UCLA, one of the two schools (other being UCSF) where race consideration in admissions is illegal? UCLA, one of the very few schools (another being UCSF) where Asians actually do, by pure magical coincidence, happen to have markedly high ratios of enrolled students to applicants when compared to other races?
I know you meant well in trying to defuse the controversy, but UCLA (UCSF as well) is like the ultimate fuel for OP's flame.
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It’s almost as if there’s more to being accepted than GPA and DAT.
Yes, like race, which, if allowed to occur in the reverse (preference to whites, for example), would provoke international condemnation. Dictionary definition of hypocrisy...
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Is this post serious?? Lmaooooo >_> White and Asian folk get WAYYYYY more acceptances than Black and Hispanic folk.
There are a lot more types of people who are more disadvantaged than you.
There are a lot more types of people who are more disadvantaged than you.
You got to reread the discussion. We’re talking about in relation to test scores and GPA, not in absolute numbers. (As an aside, even in an absolute sense, given that whites compromise a majority of this country while blacks and Hispanics are a minority, it obviously makes sense statistically for more whites to be accepted than blacks and Hispanics. Hmm....)
Of course things like EC, LORs, experience, volunteering and other things come into play as well as the DAT score but you think the Asian students who are applying are getting poor LORs, have less EC/volunteering enough to warrant the noticeable differences in enrollment rates? As Lau Sang mentioned, in institutions where race isn't a factor such as UCLA, the Asian American student enrollments are through the roof. Initially, this affirmative action policy was implemented to balance things out so White Americans, who have a natural advantage of being white, having English as their native language, and to help those who have been historically discriminated against. These schools and this policy are now failing the students is that they are now discriminating against Asian-American students and Caucausian students, as a whole, are getting into these schools at a higher rate. It is happening across the US especially in post-secondary health institutions and Ivy League schools.
A few years ago, this student named Michael Wang scored a perfect 30 on his ACT, scored a 2230 on his SAT which is 99%-ile and still didn't get into any Ivy League school while his non-Asian friends he knew personally got into those schools. As he said, and I feel the same way, he doesn't begrudge any of his friends that did get it but it's demoralizing when you do all you can do, all that is humanly possible, and you still don't get in.
Back to MB's post about there being more to it than GPA and test scores. This Michael Wang kid not only scored a perfect 30 and 2230 on his ACT and SAT, respectively, he also was very well rounded. He was a national districts qualifier on the debate team, came in first in the American Mathematics Competition for 2013, performed with the San Francisco Opera Company, played piano and sang in a choir that performed at President Barack Obama's first inauguration and spent more than 200 hours during his high school year volunteering to help tutor underprivileged children. His story is just one of many, unfortunately.
Again, it sucks things are the way they are and I know I cannot change it. I can only do and control what I can control. Thanks to all for taking the time to read and respond as well as being so helpful on all topics, school related.
Don’t be so resigned to fate. It’s true that you can’t change the situation yourself but you can raise awareness of it, which causes change over time. There was a group of Asian students who sued Harvard over their racial discrimination against them-when more schools start getting hit with lawsuits over like those from students such as yourself, that’s when the tide will begin to change.
Race in admissions is becoming a major discussion with growing awareness on the undergraduate level these days. (Google Harvard and check out the front page of news articles).
If change is coming, it will come to med school, dental school, etc. after the problem is dealt with on the undergraduate level. So for you, OP, you've just got to roll with it for now. Race may influence acceptance but it will not alone make or break your application. There's more that's unfair than just race.
If change is coming, it will come to med school, dental school, etc. after the problem is dealt with on the undergraduate level. So for you, OP, you've just got to roll with it for now. Race may influence acceptance but it will not alone make or break your application. There's more that's unfair than just race.
Soon enough whites will be a minority in the US, but, as can be seen with Asians, any expectations they have of getting “minority privileges” will lead only to disappointment. For in politically correct speak, “minority” doesn’t mean what the word actually means, it means “a loosely defined group that academics in ivory towers have decided have not only been historically oppressed but continue to be today, and so are deserving of special privileges at the expense of other groups that those academics decided were/are the oppressors/responsible parties”. And, of course, whites will never get that designation, regardless of whether at any point they will be deserving of it.
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Feel like some of these statistics can be misleading. I met multiple Asian students at interviews and the thing they ALL had in common was they were very likeable, talkative, and friendly. The vast majority of the ones that I did interview with seemed socially awkward. One had a 24 AA and a 3.9 and still hasn’t been accepted this cycle. I strongly believe it wasn’t because he was Asian, it’s because he wore JEANS to the interview. This wasn’t the only occasion I witnessed this. There’s way more that goes into deciding admissions than just are you Asian, white, black, ect
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oh i didn't know those schools had such policies. i was just trying to make a point that there are larger asian populations in california, so it is more likely that those schools would have more asian applicants, and therefore more likely have more asian student acceptances.
A. That doesn’t explain similar statistics for whites or other “overperforming” groups.
B. That doesn’t explain the numbers for schools that don’t require admissions interviews, including most undergrad and many grad programs.
C. That would be considered offensive and racist if said about an “underprivileged” group. Not saying you shouldn’t say it (in my opinion, if it is (or you believe it to be) a relevant fact, then it should be said), but just pointing that out.
D. Wanting a certain “demographic blend” is racist. Simple as that. Not being racist would mean paying no attention to race in the admissions process and accepting the students who will be the best for the school. (And if by the word “demographic” you meant socioeconomic factors, your point would still fail, as wealthy Hispanics are still given preference over poor Asians, so clearly those factors are not the main determinates, nor is there any way for schools to really know one’s background in that regard.)
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Our generation likes to complain about absolutely everything, sometimes with reason, sometimes without. Take responsibility for yourself. You may have a perfect GPA and DAT and maybe even ECs, but if you can’t interview well or connect with people you won’t be accepted.
Being a dentist is a whole lot more than statistics. Sure you may be able to ace boards, but if you can’t connect with people/patients or explain and sell treatment plans, you’re not going to be an effective and successful professional. These are things that can’t easily be assessed like stats are, and why I would venture to believe the admission statistics appear to be skewed.
I would imagine those that are interviewing and making these decisions for dental schools aren’t basing it on race, but rather the general well being of the school and profession.
Being a dentist is a whole lot more than statistics. Sure you may be able to ace boards, but if you can’t connect with people/patients or explain and sell treatment plans, you’re not going to be an effective and successful professional. These are things that can’t easily be assessed like stats are, and why I would venture to believe the admission statistics appear to be skewed.
I would imagine those that are interviewing and making these decisions for dental schools aren’t basing it on race, but rather the general well being of the school and profession.
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Yes it might be "racist", but it is reality
About point C...
Yeah that just shows the double standard pervasive in American society: that it's ok to be racist and discriminatory to Asians but not to blacks, Hispanics, or even Muslims. This is true in media, government, business, and education. And that's, again, only helping OP's case.
And if we were to take that argumentation as valid (which we should, though we can question how sound it is), that same stucture can be used in a slightly different way to talk about "minority" races in demonstrating affirmative action at work. But that would be considered totally racist.
As you admit, that is your imagination. I wish that imaginary, ideal world were true. However, see points A and B in my last post, which you have not responded to, and which demonstrate that your imaginary world is, as of now, distinct from the world of reality. Let us hope the real world catches up to that, though-it sure would be nice.
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Lol what's obvious is the preference to white and Asian students over POC. You cant argue test scores and GPA being the equalizer when historically (and currently) privileged (mainly white) individuals get more opportunities and resources than non-privileged (non-white) kids.
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When it comes down to it there’s nothing anyone can do about it. No one should worry about the admissions process because of their race. If you’re white, black, Hispanic, poor, rich and you go into an interview in jeans and tell them your dead set on OMFS YOURE NOT GETTING IN. Now on the other hand if you have a good GPA, good DAT, balanced ECs and you’re likable you stand a good shot. If the admissions selection was just based on stats, avg DAT and GPA would be significantly higher at schools.
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Also, speaking from the POV of one school I know for sure does this, they try and match their class with the demographics of the state. Ergo if 1000 Asians apply for 15 spots as opposed to 75 AA for 25 spots it’s much easier for AA and harder for Asians. They also do it for gender. The admissions process doesn’t have to be fair.
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Your "D" argument is flawed, as you are assuming you know what is "best for the school" when in fact you have no such information and are basing an argument on what YOU think is best for the school. There are MANY factors which go into the admission process that YOU have no idea about. This conversation appears to be solely based on conjecture and predent opinions, all of which have little basis in fact unless you are sitting in the admissions office of every D school and know their executive agenda.
No, as I pointed out, that’s a socioeconomic difference, not a racial one. If that were true, schools would focus on family income etc., regardless of race, and poor Asians/whites would take precedence over wealthy Hispanics/blacks. Such a system would possibly make some sense but that’s not what’s in place now.
The admissions process most certainly should be fair. If you found out that ADCOMS were giving preference to people whose names started with H’s would you be complacent and accepting of that unfairness or would you be up in arms about wrong that is?
As for your comments on “matching demographics”, that’s not only racist but also socialist. If the 1000 Asians that applied are the most highly qualified, and you turn some of them down to give the spots to members of other races who are less so, you’re not only discriminating on the basis of race, you’re also trying to guarantee equality of outcome, rewarding some who are not as desrerving at the expense of those who are.
I actually made no such assumption. In fact, I left the meaning of the term open, exactly to deflect any such response. “Best for the school” may include any combination of academics, brainpower, social skills, group cohesion, manual skills, and the list goes on. Different schools have different goals and so different ways of weighing the value of these categories in relation to each other. I don’t know the exact mixture used by any school, nor do I care. My point is simply that race should NOT be included in it in any way. Just like eye color and blood type shouldn’t, race shouldn’t. This is really a very simple idea and I wouldn’t expect people in the enlightened age of 2018 to have trouble understanding it. How about this-just imagine reversing the roles (preference to whites over blacks) and it will become crystal clear.
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The fact that you think the necessity of having a "demographical blend" in dental school is racist alone shows that you don't know what youre talking about rofl
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Nothing is fair. Employment isn’t fair, the world isn’t fair, thinking it is is ignorant. Based on your comment if the most qualified applicants to a certain school were white males then the class would be filled with white males. No school is going to allow that to happen. I’m not saying it’s right, I agree it should be based on most qualified but it simply isn’t. If things were done how you describe Howard and Meharry wouldn’t be schools.
Great response there, you provided clear and cogent arguments, right on point. I get it now.
At least you agree that the ideal would be to ignore race-that’s good. Now, obviously the world isn’t fair, but that doesn’t mean we should all sit around and say nothing when we see blatant unfairness in action. All day in the media you hear about activists for this and that-well that’s exactly what they’re doing, trying to make the world more fair (in their view).
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Once again you have inserted your own rationale to make your argument. The inner workings of any school are not quite as transparent as you are assuming. Admission may not solely be based on the metrics you have made mention of. To think that it is just the application you submit is naive. Go back to the drawing board and do some research.
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Nobody will ever agree on what’s fair. Schools have their agendas. Despite anyone’s personal beliefs that most likely will never change. Admissions is a little different then your everyday activists fighting for some personal belief.
Again you misunderstood. That list was not inclusive in any way (hence the word etc.) It was simply meant to give examples of criteria by which it would be appropriate to make selections, in contrast with those which it is not (like eye color, blood type, and race).
Admissions criteria have changed greatly over the last 100 years alone so that can’t be true. 100 years ago race and gender based criteria were the norm, but in the opposite way from today. (Though it’s true that in a way a lot changed (a swing from one extreme to another) but in a way nothing (race still hasn’t been eliminated as a factor).
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Again you claim the short list you posted would be "appropriate to make selections". You do not know anything about the selection process, and expounding on what is right, appropriate, etc. is after all, simply your own opinion with no basis in fact. That is really all I am saying. Complaining here will change nothing. Spend your valuable time working on getting into dental school. Then work on graduating.
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Get used to it and be grateful you are not a white male, who are mainly discriminated against everywhere now
I’ve checked off both of those already so now back to this:
Of course it’s a matter of opinion. Saying that GPA and DAT should be a factor in admissions while race should not is an opinion, but one that makes sense and is supported by logic. So is saying that eye color and blood type shouldn't be a factor-that’s also an opinion, but one that can be supported by logic. On that matter, saying that one shouldn’t be racist is also an opinion, but one that we can agree makes sense and should be put into practice. (1+1=2, now that’s a fact.) So saying that something I said is an opinion isn’t exactly earth shattering news and doesn’t impact the argument a bit.
True say.
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Asian people are poc. they're just not urm
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Dental School admission is about available seats. Figure it out. Not all seats are available to everybody, and that's a fact. That is what makes admission so competitive. It has little to do with race, but everything to do with money, which is after all, the great equalizing factor.
It's hard as a white dude but I still got in everywhere I applied. Plus if they truly accept people with low stats (which isn't true) of any race instead of good applicants, at least school should theoretically be much easier too in a sense. Trust me I know some people with low gpas in undergrad and they are not top of the class.
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