Dentist Salary Compilation

[2TH MVR]

My compensation is in the 7 figures, if you factor in salary, executive compensation, and all the other stuff that goes into ownership. I'm actually just waiting for a buyout of one of my companies, lol. My investment income is not as much right now, as we're heavy into reinvesting to prop up the value even more. Hoping for at least a 100MM+ buyout at this point.

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[Cold Front]

We all have different backgrounds, live different places and go at different paces in life.

Years of experience: 10
General dentist
Private practices: 2 (2 doctors and 3 hygienists)
Insurance: 80% kids. (Large international community with Medicaid)
Days: My hours are M, T and Th (9-1p). The office hours are longer.
Salary: Dentistry about $900k (if I work more as a dentist, I could make more, but I’m not going to be happier and be more productive financially. Time is Money!).
Other Businesses: Logistics (I have contract with amazon as a carrier), Truck Parking (I control the largest private Truck Parking network in my 2M+ population midwest city). Truck fuel service (I have fuel program for my truck drivers/customers. Averaging 15k gallons/day @0.60 cents/gallon margin). Truck mechanic services (oil change services mostly). Truck Washing services (averaging 50 trucks a day @$100 each). I own 3 commercial buildings with 9 national tenants (including my practices - which don’t pay rent).

Dentistry was head in the sand for me business wise, but it was definitely the best decision and quickest route for me to hit other financial goals.

Merry Christmas everyone!

 

[Cold Front]

Let me get this straight - so you work about 12 hours a week as a dentist treating patients and make 900k because you also own two practices? Can you give me a rundown on how this works.

My practices don’t pay rent (I own the buildings). We run a well oiled hygiene programs. Hygienists average $1,500/day with little overhead.

PM me if you have specific Qs in mind. I can’t share my ledgers in a public forum.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

My practices don’t pay rent (I own the buildings). We run a well oiled hygiene programs. Hygienists average $1,500/day with little overhead.

PM me if you have specific Qs in mind. I can’t share my ledgers in a public forum.

Technically it makes more financial sense if he pays rent to himself. The more rent he pays allowed by the IRS, the better. He must establish 2 corporate entities. The practice will tax write off the high rent and the building will see the rent as passive tax friendly income. The gov't allows tax friendly structures to encourage property investments, create jobs, and improve the communities and economies. He could tell me I'm full of #### and that I'm a big dummie.

 

[Cold Front]

Technically it makes more financial sense if he pays rent to himself. The more rent he pays allowed by the IRS, the better. He must establish 2 corporate entities. The practice will tax write off the high rent and the building will see the rent as passive tax friendly income. The gov't allows tax friendly structures to encourage property investments, create jobs, and improve the communities and economies. He could tell me I'm full of #### and that I'm a big dummie.

Yes. On paper my practices pay rent. But it’s about $150-160k a year in rent for both offices - all right hand to left hand payments. Those expenses are recaptured at the bottom line.

 

[Cold Front]

So you’re hygienists are making bank. Prolly more than some dentists?

They are paid salary. Not % of their production. That’s another way to make higher income if you have a busy hygiene schedule. Why pay production? Unless it’s a slow to moderately busy office.

 

[LaughingGas]

No. He got the Epstein Barr sharing water at his HS soccer events. He wanted to be accepted so bad, he'll do anything. In college he went through all the Fraternity hazing, etc. He struggled in Pharmacy school. Bottom line is he is a Yes Man. He'll bend over backwards for people at the expense of his health. Osteo school was of course demanding so he neglected his health even more. He started aging as a pharmacist as he was working 14 hrs for 12 hr shift. He would cover other people's work. It became a pattern, then a habit. He wanted people to like him. He would tell strangers that he is a doctor and talk shop to them (WTF?) He is the nicest guy thus becoming easy target to be taken advantage of. That is where I come in...even now. My sister keeps saying that he chose his lifestyle. He is 46 and his neck looks like a raisin. Keith Richards looks better than him (sorry, harsh again). He makes twice my money and pays 1/3 of my property tax rate and yet he and his family lives paycheck to paycheck. I keep trying to get him to not work so hard but he is working 2 jobs at different hospitals and it's breaking my heart.

sorry to hear that.. It's so hard when your family member is like that and there is nothing you can do to change them

 

[PikminOC]

Not for a dental practice. Another business.

What's the other business?

 

[Molar Whisperer]

sorry to hear that.. It's so hard when your family member is like that and there is nothing you can do to change them

Thanks for hearing me out. My brother could be anyone's best friend. Too bad it seemed like he was the Caucasian's door mat. Now he is embracing his culture (unfortunately his family doesn't) and getting somewhat more financially responsible. There are times I imagine "what if" we grew up in a more desirable (diverse) location. Last weekend I flew back and we all visited my ailing father. My hometown is deteriorating and may soon become a ghost town where as the big city is growing and developing. I was impressed how friendly people were at the airport, car rental, stores, etc.

 

[bracketbuster68]

Thanks for hearing me out. My brother could be anyone's best friend. Too bad it seemed like he was the Caucasian's door mat. Now he is embracing his culture (unfortunately his family doesn't) and getting somewhat more financially responsible. There are times I imagine "what if" we grew up in a more desirable (diverse) location. Last weekend I flew back and we all visited my ailing father. My hometown is deteriorating and may soon become a ghost town where as the big city is growing and developing. I was impressed how friendly people were at the airport, car rental, stores, etc.

What do you mean he was the caucasian's door mat?

 

[Molar Whisperer]

What do you mean he was the caucasian's door mat?

He wants to be accepted by Caucasian white people. Door mat is where people step on before they go inside the house. My dad told me that during my brother's wedding, the hospital staff in attendence would tell my dad that people are taking advantage of him. My brother would cover for other doctors while they do not do it in return and my brother would let that go and continue to cover for them. He would fix their mistakes, clean up after them, etc.

 

[LaughingGas]

Thanks for hearing me out. My brother could be anyone's best friend. Too bad it seemed like he was the Caucasian's door mat. Now he is embracing his culture (unfortunately his family doesn't) and getting somewhat more financially responsible. There are times I imagine "what if" we grew up in a more desirable (diverse) location. Last weekend I flew back and we all visited my ailing father. My hometown is deteriorating and may soon become a ghost town where as the big city is growing and developing. I was impressed how friendly people were at the airport, car rental, stores, etc.

Having to move to two different countries, I can understand. You can blending in by either respectfully being different and community accepting the way you are or get accepted by being their clowns and thinking they like you. And that's why it's hard for us to consider to raise a baby where we would be minorities and it's inevitable to worry about cultural clash and unconscious/unintended racism.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Having to move to two different countries, I can understand. You can blending in by either respectfully being different and community accepting the way you are or get accepted by being their clowns and thinking they like you. And that's why it's hard for us to consider to raise a baby where we would be minorities and it's inevitable to worry about cultural clash and unconscious/unintended racism.

I am very blessed to be exposed to a lot of dysfunction growing up. I know what I want and what I don't want. I've seen money corrupt and ruin lives. My wise father in-law said any problems that can be corrected by money are small problems. Big problems like poor health and destroyed families are not so easily corrected. My wife has a very rich friend who decided to take a trip to China with her boyfriend for a month and dump her 2 young daughters ages 9 and 11 at their neighbors. Upon returning, the daughters moved out to live with their dad and the oldest would only call her mother when she wanted money. My 3 kids never had anyone tell them to go back to where they came from. My 11 y/o twin boys got accepted to the Science & Engineering (nerd) Academy for Grades 6-12 last fall and one of them started an on-line gaming club for middle school. In 6th grade, they were exposed to business scenarios similar to Harvard Business curriculum and the HS welcomes numerous high level Fortune 500 executives to speak. We count pennies but we live well and that's all that matters.

 

[LaughingGas]

I am very blessed to be exposed to a lot of dysfunction growing up. I know what I want and what I don't want. I've seen money corrupt and ruin lives. My wise father in-law said any problems that can be corrected by money are small problems. Big problems like poor health and destroyed families are not so easily corrected. My wife has a very rich friend who decided to take a trip to China with her boyfriend for a month and dump her 2 young daughters ages 9 and 11 at their neighbors. Upon returning, the daughters moved out to live with their dad and the oldest would only call her mother when she wanted money. My 3 kids never had anyone tell them to go back to where they came from. My 11 y/o twin boys got accepted to the Science & Engineering (nerd) Academy for Grades 6-12 last fall and one of them started an on-line gaming club for middle school. In 6th grade, they were exposed to business scenarios similar to Harvard Business curriculum and the HS welcomes numerous high level Fortune 500 executives to speak. We count pennies but we live well and that's all that matters.

Those are very wise words from your father in law. As I am getting older , I realize how true that is. We will always stress about money and it’s always stressing for bigger amounts. In highschool used to stress for few bucks, college and young adult few hundred, and now thousands. Scale is all relative but I realize without good “home” or health, money is less relevant. I might ask for some parenting tips in the future 😄. Very impressive.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Those are very wise words from your father in law. As I am getting older , I realize how true that is. We will always stress about money and it’s always stressing for bigger amounts. In highschool used to stress for few bucks, college and young adult few hundred, and now thousands. Scale is all relative but I realize without good “home” or health, money is less relevant. I might ask for some parenting tips in the future 😄. Very impressive.

One of my gauges for being a good parent is to see how excited your kids are to see you come home. My twin boys aren't and my 8 y/o girl does sometimes (my DA thinks she is so cute and will occasionally get her inexpensive toys). I teach my kids money buys choices, with more money, more choices. It can be a puzzle that can take a lifetime to master. One of my twin boys follows my advice to a Tee. They were scared of the pool water and Josh followed all of my instr and started swimming. He was a late developer so in 1st grade, they placed him in English 2nd Language. By the 4th grade, he beat all the 5th graders in the reading competition (Battle of the Books) and represented his elementary school in the regionals. He is a good public speaker and started his own gaming club with many followers. He was the CEO of a school mock company and made it grow impressively. The other twin usually has to bail him out of jams such as homework, computer glitches, school and life hacks. I started reading Mark Manson on my flight to my hometown last weekend. He mentioned that all the undesirable outcomes such as rejection, failures, etc will always be there and you can't avoid or prevent them (beyond your control). He discusses real ways to master their outcomes. The trip and the readings were so therapeutic, I felt like a new person.

 

[bracketbuster68]

He wants to be accepted by Caucasian white people. Door mat is where people step on before they go inside the house. My dad told me that during my brother's wedding, the hospital staff in attendence would tell my dad that people are taking advantage of him. My brother would cover for other doctors while they do not do it in return and my brother would let that go and continue to cover for them. He would fix their mistakes, clean up after them, etc.

You make him to be a door mat in general.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

You make him to be a door mat in general.

You make a good point that I discussed his details in this anonymous platform and I should not have used such harsh terms. However, that is very offensive that you directed it towards me especially since you don't know my brother's and my struggles. I was told numerous times to go back to where I came from. Teachers put me in the slower classes. I was called Chxxk almost everyday sometimes multiple times a day. As I was walking by, this lady thought I was going to rob her (we Asians are all thugs). I don't know how many times we were stared at and not to mention nonexistent dating experiences since we Asian men are the least desirable dating demographic especially in the Bible Belt. Lack of dating was a big factor IMO of my brother's severe depression. The difference between me and my brother is I associate with people that accept me instead of trying to artificially gain their acceptance. Unless you and your family had similar struggles, you must come off as a privileged elitist. BTW, I was the doormat instead of him growing up because he had more friends. But you probably assumed as such.

 

[bracketbuster68]

You make a good point that I discussed his details in this anonymous platform and I should not have used such harsh terms. However, that is very offensive that you directed it towards me especially since you don't know my brother's and my struggles. I was told numerous times to go back to where I came from. Teachers put me in the slower classes. I was called Chxxk almost everyday sometimes multiple times a day. As I was walking by, this lady thought I was going to rob her (we Asians are all thugs). I don't know how many times we were stared at and not to mention nonexistent dating experiences since we Asian men are the least desirable dating demographic especially in the Bible Belt. Lack of dating was a big factor IMO of my brother's severe depression. The difference between me and my brother is I associate with people that accept me instead of trying to artificially gain their acceptance. Unless you and your family had similar struggles, you must come off as a privileged elitist. BTW, I was the doormat instead of him growing up because he had more friends. But you probably assumed as such.

This is just blatantly racist. I’m sorry those things happened to you and I wish they didn’t, but people are like this regardless of being caucasian or not. I hope you can treat others better, especially your own family members, and be a virtuous model for others.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

This is just blatantly racist. I’m sorry those things happened to you and I wish they didn’t, but people are like this regardless of being caucasian or not. I hope you can treat others better, especially your own family members, and be a virtuous model for others.

You're right that I'm a jerk to describe my brother this way and that all people not just Caucasians can be like this. If you had a family member that came home crying after church camp saying he is ashamed to be Chinese, then you would understand. He covers call for other doctors and they don't cover for him. He stays later than he should doing other people's work on a consistent basis. I asked him why they don't cover for him and he'll just say they're good people. It reminds me of the movie Godfather II where Fredo lets others step all over him. I was overly passionate and "racist" given my experiences. If you were in my place as his older brother, do you just let him get stepped on? I tried to talk to him as politely as I can, but he continues to dismiss it and I never brought it up again. I saw him last weekend and he looked like an old man at 46. He developed a couple of seizures while at one of his 2 jobs and the neurologist had him not drive. I confided with my sister and she says he chose this way so that was that.

 

[schmoob]

You're right that I'm a jerk to describe my brother this way and that all people not just Caucasians can be like this. If you had a family member that came home crying after church camp saying he is ashamed to be Chinese, then you would understand. He covers call for other doctors and they don't cover for him. He stays later than he should doing other people's work on a consistent basis. I asked him why they don't cover for him and he'll just say they're good people. It reminds me of the movie Godfather II where Fredo lets others step all over him. I was overly passionate and "racist" given my experiences. If you were in my place as his older brother, do you just let him get stepped on? I tried to talk to him as politely as I can, but he continues to dismiss it and I never brought it up again. I saw him last weekend and he looked like an old man at 46. He developed a couple of seizures while at one of his 2 jobs and the neurologist had him not drive. I confided with my sister and she says he chose this way so that was that.

He has only himself to blame, not everyone else. He’s not the “Caucasian man’s doormat,” he EVERYONES doormat. He needs to step up and be a man and maybe you should tell him so less politely and more directly.

Also, I think you forget what Fredo’s older brother did to him.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

He has only himself to blame, not everyone else. He’s not the “Caucasian man’s doormat,” he EVERYONES doormat. He needs to step up and be a man and maybe you should tell him so less politely and more directly.

Also, I think you forget what Fredo’s older brother did to him.

Thanks for understanding. My brother is the coolest guy and he seemed to have more self confidence. We easily talked for more than an hour today. We've been planning on how to care for our ailing dad out of state. I can't stand having anyone getting taken advantage of. I have a colleague who has his patients take advantage of him. He is always staying late into lunch and after work. We work at a predominately Medicaid office and we don't work on production. I care about him like a brother (which in many ways he reminds me of him other than he is a white Mormon). Hygs know to get me to do his recalls and his DAs would ask me to help with his ERs. One time he was going to start a RCT #29 after hours. I wasn't going to let that happen thinking about my own brother so I got my DA who followed me from 3 different clinics and we whipped it out for him so he could go home to his family. In my absence, my DA worked with him for a few days. She must have shaped him up because he is more efficient and able to go home earlier. Have a Merry Christmas Everyone!

 

[TanMan]

What's the other business?

Send me a PM for the answer. Not keen in answering that question publicly.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

This is just blatantly racist. I’m sorry those things happened to you and I wish they didn’t, but people are like this regardless of being caucasian or not. I hope you can treat others better, especially your own family members, and be a virtuous model for others.

I will heed your advice. I can always treat people and family better and become a better role model. In terms of being a racist, I chose to live in the Pacific NW for its population diversity, knowing beforehand of its oversaturation of dentists. I've gotten to know Russians and Eastern European, Middle Eastern, some African Continental people, and a large Hispanic collective. Because of this, I am culturally richer. BTW, my best friend here is white American and as mentioned before, I look after a white colleague like he is my brother. Also mentioned before, I'm actually glad I had experienced all my childhood dysfunctions and trauma. I wouldn't want it on my kids but I shared my experiences with them hoping they can be stronger for of it. Thank you for your words of encouragement. I will be turning 50 in a couple of months and will continue to learn life experiences.

 

[P7898]

"Dentistry is sooo bad." It is what you make of it folks. Do not go into $400k debt to become a dentist (maybe a specialist). The point here is that get your degrees with the least amount of debt possible because this opens up business avenues for you later on.

 

[Cold Front]

"Dentistry is sooo bad." It is what you make of it folks. Do not go into $400k debt to become a dentist (maybe a specialist). The point here is that get your degrees with the least amount of debt possible because this opens up business avenues for you later on.

This!

I also think 2020 added another wrinkle to the profession. It will expedite the growth of corporate dental offices and the attrition of private practices. We will see more consolidation, thanks to low interest rates that will encourage DSO’s to ramp up more new offices. Heck! Walmart alone will own and run at least 100 offices next few years.

We will definitely see more big guy moves than little guy in 2021. I would seriously reconsider dentistry as a pre-dent today - if your only option is to go into high debt. Don’t let the “it’s my passion” fool you. Big Debt has big and dire consequences. You have been warned here in this post (and others).

 

[P7898]

This!

I also think 2020 added another wrinkle to the profession. It will expedite the growth of corporate dental offices and the attrition of private practices. We will see more consolidation, thanks to low interest rates that will encourage DSO’s to ramp up more new offices. Heck! Walmart alone will own and run at least 100 offices next few years.

We will definitely see more big guy moves than little guy in 2021. I would seriously reconsider dentistry as a pre-dent today - if your only option is to go into high debt. Don’t let the “it’s my passion” fool you. Big Debt has big and dire consequences. You have been warned here in this post (and others).

But this ^

 

[Dochopeful13]

This!

I also think 2020 added another wrinkle to the profession. It will expedite the growth of corporate dental offices and the attrition of private practices. We will see more consolidation, thanks to low interest rates that will encourage DSO’s to ramp up more new offices. Heck! Walmart alone will own and run at least 100 offices next few years.

We will definitely see more big guy moves than little guy in 2021. I would seriously reconsider dentistry as a pre-dent today - if your only option is to go into high debt. Don’t let the “it’s my passion” fool you. Big Debt has big and dire consequences. You have been warned here in this post (and others).

Why is working for a DSO so bad? Isn’t income potential higher?

 

[Molar Whisperer]

Why is working for a DSO so bad? Isn’t income potential higher?

There are a lot of reasons IMO DSOs are bad. Yes the income potential for newbies can be slightly higher than Private Practice (PP for those who don't know). DSOs are production based where DMOs are capitation. Most likely in DSOs you will have a non-dentist telling you that you must ramp up $40k in production a month minimum (I might be out of date there). You will have to rush on all of your procedures to meet that quota. You must be a used car salesman to sell unneeded treatment. At a particular DSO chain, hygienists are trained to probe ~3 mm deeper to sell SRP (deep cleanings at $250 or more per quadrant) and stick Arestin (don't remember those fees). Having non-dentists tell you what to do is very risky...it's not their license on the line. DMOs IMO are opposite of DSOs. You tend to undertreat since they don't count production but by the number of patients you see. If you are an employee to any of those entities, your income ceiling is set fairly low. Only if you are a partner or have some equity stake will your potential be higher.

PP IMO has the most long-term income potential. But like many wise posters here mentioned, there are too many variables. In my ultra high saturated area, many PP don't make money their first 5 yrs. Many had to resort to working at DSO/DMOs part time. Why not go to a less saturated area with less DSO presence? Keep in mind the less saturated areas are that way for a reason such as poor schools, poor amenities, poor population, poor job market, in general, undesirable living. Finding that right balance is getting more diffcult.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

A possible scenario for PP. Have the best of both worlds. Live in a desirable area and work in a less saturated area. I thought of that a few years ago eyeing a $1.3 million practice but the wf killed that idea. For those men who are not yet married...happy wife equals happy life.

 

[Cold Front]

Why is working for a DSO so bad? Isn’t income potential higher?

DSO’s have one goal. They want to commercialize dentistry under a Wall Street style vision and leadership. Yes. You can work there and treat your patients well, but in actuality - that’s the DSO’s patients. They are slowly pushing the face of dentistry from solo private practice to retail style business model. Not every dentist cares about this, but the DSO dentists are supporting/endorsing the DSO’s position of the profession by being tone deaf to all this.

Most dentists think they can control the future of the profession because they are the ones who are licensed. The real power is actually in the hands of insurance companies and corporations. They dictate all the finances for majority of dentists.

 

[Dochopeful13]

DSO’s have one goal. They want to commercialize dentistry under a Wall Street style vision and leadership. Yes. You can work there and treat your patients well, but in actuality - that’s the DSO’s patients. They are slowly pushing the face of dentistry from solo private practice to retail style business model. Not every dentist cares about this, but the DSO dentists are supporting/endorsing the DSO’s position of the profession by being tone deaf to all this.

Most dentists think they can control the future of the profession because they are the ones who are licensed. The real power is actually in the hands of insurance companies and corporations. They dictate all the finances for majority of dentists.

This seems to be true for all of healthcare these days.

 

[schmoob]

I think we should take into account that there are some greedy PPs out there. Easy fillings are tx planned as BU/CRN. EVERY extraction billed as surgical. Pretty bad stuff.

 

[2TH MVR]

DSO’s have one goal. They want to commercialize dentistry under a Wall Street style vision and leadership. Yes. You can work there and treat your patients well, but in actuality - that’s the DSO’s patients. They are slowly pushing the face of dentistry from solo private practice to retail style business model. Not every dentist cares about this, but the DSO dentists are supporting/endorsing the DSO’s position of the profession by being tone deaf to all this.

Most dentists think they can control the future of the profession because they are the ones who are licensed. The real power is actually in the hands of insurance companies and corporations. They dictate all the finances for majority of dentists.

30 yrs ago .... there were very few DSOs. PP proliferated in that environment. I seriously used to think that those few dentists that worked for the DSOs were losers. I've opined many times that these are the E-commerce times. Most of the posters here (including yourself) were raised in this E-environment who demanded convenience with most services. I believe most of the blame for the DSO growth is the ever changing internet consumer demanding more and more E-services. Convenience is king. Convenience is seeing a dentist at Walmart, CVS, etc.. Convenience is DSOs with their varying times of service as opposed to the traditional M-Thurs 8-4 appointment times. Convenience is the option to pay for services through many different financial plans rather than seeing the sign at check-in that states: "All services to be paid in full at time of service". Convenience is going online to make dentist appts.

I agree that DSOs are a business. But you cannot blame the dentists who work at DSOs. That's like blaming young entrepreneurs such as yourself taking advantage of an Amazon distribution business. Amazon has single handedly eliminated most brick and morter stores. Most of them were mom and pops small business. Own a small business .... and Amazon wants their cut. Sounds mafiosa.

The DSO dentists are there for employment. They are not there to propagate DSOs. They do not have a political agenda.

After many yrs of PP ..... I work for a DSO now. It's a "convenience" thing. Do I personally like DSOs? Hell no. I wish it could be the way it was 30 yrs ago.

 

[Mauricio45]

Most private office associateships don't work out. They can't provide work for two full-time dentists especially if in saturated market.

Not all corps are bad. Yes, they aren't perfect but it's hell of alot better than working as a PP associate. At least with corp, you get your rep and speed in. It's easy to see why new grads are eyeing corps these days. You can't blame them.

 

[Molar Whisperer]

30 yrs ago .... there were very few DSOs. PP proliferated in that environment. I seriously used to think that those few dentists that worked for the DSOs were losers. I've opined many times that these are the E-commerce times. Most of the posters here (including yourself) were raised in this E-environment who demanded convenience with most services. I believe most of the blame for the DSO growth is the ever changing internet consumer demanding more and more E-services. Convenience is king. Convenience is seeing a dentist at Walmart, CVS, etc.. Convenience is DSOs with their varying times of service as opposed to the traditional M-Thurs 8-4 appointment times. Convenience is the option to pay for services through many different financial plans rather than seeing the sign at check-in that states: "All services to be paid in full at time of service". Convenience is going online to make dentist appts.

I agree that DSOs are a business. But you cannot blame the dentists who work at DSOs. That's like blaming young entrepreneurs such as yourself taking advantage of an Amazon distribution business. Amazon has single handedly eliminated most brick and morter stores. Most of them were mom and pops small business. Own a small business .... and Amazon wants their cut. Sounds mafiosa.

The DSO dentists are there for employment. They are not there to propagate DSOs. They do not have a political agenda.

After many yrs of PP ..... I work for a DSO now. It's a "convenience" thing. Do I personally like DSOs? Hell no. I wish it could be the way it was 30 yrs ago.

From my observations, Amazon (E-commerce), Made in China, outsourcing to India, senior employees training their newbie replacements, DSOs and Walmart Dentistry are signs that someone from this world can do your job cheaper (not necessarily better). I had a colleague who used to do IT. His job was to set up and support medical radiographic images to be sent to India for interpretation. About 12 yrs ago, my last DMO got rid of their in-house lab and sends cases to China. That same DMO got rid of all their senior dentists who had been there over 10 yrs. Even sadder is school tuition rising to unsustainable levels. I feel sorry for the younger generation inheriting this trend of insanely high tuition rates for lower income potential.

 

[Cold Front]

I agree that DSOs are a business. But you cannot blame the dentists who work at DSOs. That's like blaming young entrepreneurs such as yourself taking advantage of an Amazon distribution business. Amazon has single handedly eliminated most brick and morter stores. Most of them were mom and pops small business. Own a small business .... and Amazon wants their cut. Sounds mafiosa.

The DSO dentists are there for employment. They are not there to propagate DSOs. They do not have a political agenda.

After many yrs of PP ..... I work for a DSO now. It's a "convenience" thing. Do I personally like DSOs? Hell no. I wish it could be the way it was 30 yrs ago.

Spotlight! Lol

As measly as I’m involved with amazon logistics, I agree that, on the surface, amazon is like a DSO. They both follow the same principles and monetize on the ever evolving consumer behavior and demand. However, one deals with helping e-vendors sell products as a clearing house, while the other perpetuates a profession in the interest of their stock holders - and traffic their employee doctors on specific systems that fits in their business model, even if it can have a borderline impact on the delivery of dentistry. Yes, corporate dentists can often work under specific guidelines that are mandated by their employers; Exhibit A: Let’s push for more SRP’s, a particular type of denture, or start more Ortho cases - completely devoid of what the dentist actually would have done if he or she had her own practice. Ofcourse, this is all gray area to many DSO dentists - as long as it’s not keeping them awake at night. I know this is not the case at all DSO’s, but many do, and I have seen it first hand as a former DSO employee.

Yes, employment matters. But how employment is created has changed over the past couple of decades. DSO’s heavily invested in resources that helps them better connect with new grads than private offices can. So, the net result - the majority of new dentists work for a corporation, because the job is finding them most of the time through different platforms, rather than them spending a very time consuming process to work at a private practice. This is the single most important bet DSO’s made to keep their operations going. They have probably used some algorithm to detect keywords in this post - and suddenly a job ad for a dentist position will appear on this thread. That’s another example of the power the DSO’s have to reduce private practices in the long run.

Ultimately, the decision to work at a DSO, like you said, is convenience. Just like amazon is convenient for most retail consumers. Private practices have not collectively evolved to make their patients and future associate dentists a convenient model to fend off DSO’s. I totally get it. It is a losing game for the profession as a whole in the future if you care about the existence of a private practice. It’s probably a great way to work as a dentist in a DSO model if you’re just thinking for yourself and just come to work to fix x, y and z - then go home. Maybe the employment behavior and needs of many dentists shifted in that direction over decades. Some of us like myself see the ship getting steered by corporate pirates, and dentists have become minions that serve their employers board room agendas.

Most of us became dentists with the opportunity to own an office or work in a private practice.

 

[Hou$e 0f C@rds]

Years of Experience: 4.5
Specialty or General: General
Company (Corp or Private): Smallish Corp
Salary: 355k (Average for last 3 years)
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Days/weeks per year: 3 days a week (11 hour days, with no lunch break)

The work days are long and brutal, but having 4 days off a week helps the recovery a bit. It's been a good run so far, but I'm leaving it behind and starting endo residency in 6 months.

By reading this, I have firm belief now that there is no scarcity of dumb people in this world. Who the hell leaves a 355k job to do 2/3 year Endo residency, when you can easily do Endo's as a GP anytime. lol

 

[Grinz]

By reading this, I have firm belief now that there is no scarcity of dumb people in this world. Who the hell leaves a 355k job to do 2/3 year Endo residency, when you can easily do Endo's as a GP anytime. lol

Someone who wants to make 500K+ on a 4 day work week. Maybe someone who wants to own a practice with an overhead of 35-40% while only managing 4-5 staff members on a 4 day work week. Maybe someone who only wants to see 1 patient at a time and never have to do another hygiene check again. Maybe someone who has been making 350K and all their financial goals are satisfied and now they want to hone in on what they truly enjoy about dentistry.

 

[cmsmith85]

By reading this, I have firm belief now that there is no scarcity of dumb people in this world. Who the hell leaves a 355k job to do 2/3 year Endo residency, when you can easily do Endo's as a GP anytime. lol

Lol, it does seem a little dumb at first doesn't it? You'll see after you graduate though that a career in dentistry is a marathon, not a sprint. Yeah I've done well so far, but it's taken its toll on me in other ways. I've been sprinting instead of running at a nice pace. Everyone has their own reasons for doing things, but for me I have another 20-25 years left of dentistry and would much rather be doing something I enjoy more and that would let me practice longer than burning myself out.

 

[cmsmith85]

Someone who wants to make 500K+ on a 4 day work week. Maybe someone who wants to own a practice with an overhead of 35-40% while only managing 4-5 staff members on a 4 day work week. Maybe someone who only wants to see 1 patient at a time and never have to do another hygiene check again. Maybe someone who has been making 350K and all their financial goals are satisfied and now they want to hone in on what they truly enjoy about dentistry.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thanks!

 

[yappy]

By reading this, I have firm belief now that there is no scarcity of dumb people in this world. Who the hell leaves a 355k job to do 2/3 year Endo residency, when you can easily do Endo's as a GP anytime. lol

I make around the same money as a gp and if I had the grades/rank and research I would seriously consider specializing. Most general dentist offices do not lend themselves to doing specialized dentistry; hence, specialists schedules look very different than gp schedules. It’s best to do what you enjoy, if you can, than worry about salary.

 

[schmoob]

By reading this, I have firm belief now that there is no scarcity of dumb people in this world. Who the hell leaves a 355k job to do 2/3 year Endo residency, when you can easily do Endo's as a GP anytime. lol

You are halfway through D3, so you’ve maybe done 1 endo over 4 visits? 1-2 extractions while your hand was held? A few restorations and maybe a crown? You do not know enough how to competently do ANY dental procedure at this point. You shouldn’t throw stones.

 

[P7898]

By reading this, I have firm belief now that there is no scarcity of dumb people in this world. Who the hell leaves a 355k job to do 2/3 year Endo residency, when you can easily do Endo's as a GP anytime. lol

So I assume you never had a job you did not like? Life is long my friend. If someone paid me $300k to do a job I do not like for the rest of my life versus going back to school for 2-3 years and then doing I job I like that pays $300k, I would choose the job I like every time because you will be waking up at 6am and coming home at 6pm every day until you cannot work anymore doing that one thing - so you bet your sweet a$$ I will choose the job I like.

Plus, if you are not really into your job and you are doing great, imagine if you were into the field or job you are going back to school for.... motivation & passion over money & financial pursuits always.

 

[stuntdragon]

Years of Experience: 4 months
Specialty or General: General
Company (Corp or Private): Private Non-Profit qualified as FQHC
Salary: 165K (eligible to apply for 50K Loan Repayment)
Location: Central California
Days/weeks per year: 5 days/week (40 hrs)
Student Loan: 320k
Experience Gained: Molar and premolar endo, 3rd molar extractions, crown and bridge, removable prosth, restorative

 

[2thDoc11]

Aren’t you still in dental school Mr. multi million dollar practice 🤣🤣

He said he was managing.. not the dentist but I also don’t know..

 

[Cold Front]

What’s the overhead on these businesses?

How much do you make off your side hustles a year and did it take long to get to that point?

The overhead varies and it is best to understand the type of overhead rather than focus on numbers - as overhead can vary from company to company, and city to city.

Real estate: There is little overhead other than a mortgage (if there is any). Tenants pay their share of the property taxes, insurance and maintenances. The rest I pocket. I also charge 8% management fee to each tenants CAM expenses, instead of paying a third party management company.

Logistics: A lot of moving parts to this. It also depends on the type of equipment you operate and quality of contracts. I have a carrier contract with amazon plus I dispatch other truck delivers (owner operators) under my authority/DOT with amazon. I own my equipment (2 box trucks and 2 regular trucks with 53’ trailers). My company dispatches the others at 12% fee off the top of their load revenues. So overhead is mainly fuel, oil change and parking (which I own). I will expand on these next.

Truck parking: Overhead is rent and utility. My rent is about $800 an acre per month. The truck parking business currently leases 22 acres. So my rent is about $17k a month. Utility is mainly LED parking lights, so electric is about $2-300 a month. Trash dumpster services is about the same. All in all, around $18k a month for the whole operation. My customers range from local truck drivers to corporate accounts (JB Hunt, Nestle, Amazon, etc)

Truck Mechanic: This ties back to the logistic business. I hired a mechanic as a contractor. He and I split labor cost. The most common service is oil change. I buy the oil at bulk at $7 a gallon locally. I sell it at $22 a gallon at the mechanic shop (within my truck parking lot). Thats a $15 margin per gallon. A typical truck needs about 10 gallons. So my oil profit is $150 per truck. We see about 8-10 trucks a day. So you can do the maths. The labor is usually $100 for the oil change (driver provides their oil filter). I get 50% of labor, so $50, for 8-10 trucks. So average daily profit is about $2k a day. Yes, some people make that kind of money with Tesla stocks or bitcoin, but this is a real world cash in hand money for services - just like dentistry.

Truck Wash: Overhead is mostly water + soap + labor. We have a dedicated bay with 2,000 psi power washing equipments for this - next to the mechanic shop bay. I buy the soap in bulk, 55 gallon barrels at $300 each. The soap is very concentrated and can usually get you 10-15 trucks per 1 gallon. So $300 in soap + water can wash 550-800 trucks at about $100 fee per truck. The labor is 2 teams with 2 men each (day and night shift), at $15/hour. Slow day, they wash 50 trucks, busy day close to 100. It takes about 15 mins to wash a truck. My water bill is about $1,200 a month for this operation. I would like to save money on labor and make the service fully automated - but the equipment and installation costs $250-300k. It could save me about $20k a month in labor cost.

Diesel fuel: Overhead is mainly merchant account. The fuel dispenser has a credit card reader that is specific for the trucking industry - so I pay 1.8% for my monthly volume. The truck facility currently has a 10k gallons underground diesel fuel tank. They cost about $80k. I buy my fuel bulk from different suppliers (prices change daily). As of yesterday, the rate from supplier was about $2.20 per gallon. Retail is about $2.60-2.80 per gallon around here. So my margin is about 0.50-0.60 cents per gallon. I currently sell about 10,000 gallons a day (which equates to about 30 empty trucks) - so $5-6k profit margin a day. I keep about 98.2% of that due to the credit card fees. My fuel dispenser is by Wayne and costed me about $25k. It pumps at a rate of 40 gallons a minute. Just to give you an idea, the regular gasoline pumps are at about 7-10 gallons per minute - depending of the dispenser brand.

Tire services: This is a bigger discussion. But I work with a vendor who supplies truck tires from China. A new single truck tire + install runs around $360 each at my shop. Most trucks are 18 wheelers. The profit margins per tire is about $100 plus splitting labor cost. We have a storage space for tires... for the most common tire brands. This is mostly every few months service for trucks.

I have other side businesses (including a dental assisting program) - but those are the main ones.

 

[D1Bound]

The overhead varies and it is best to understand the type of overhead rather than focus on numbers - as overhead can vary from company to company, and city to city.

Real estate: There is little overhead other than a mortgage (if there is any). Tenants pay their share of the property taxes, insurance and maintenances. The rest I pocket. I also charge 8% management fee to each tenants CAM expenses, instead of paying a third party management company.

Logistics: A lot of moving parts to this. It also depends on the type of equipment you operate and quality of contracts. I have a carrier contract with amazon plus I dispatch other truck delivers (owner operators) under my authority/DOT with amazon. I own my equipment (2 box trucks and 2 regular trucks with 53’ trailers). My company dispatches the others at 12% fee off the top of their load revenues. So overhead is mainly fuel, oil change and parking (which I own). I will expand on these next.

Truck parking: Overhead is rent and utility. My rent is about $800 an acre per month. The truck parking business currently leases 22 acres. So my rent is about $17k a month. Utility is mainly LED parking lights, so electric is about $2-300 a month. Trash dumpster services is about the same. All in all, around $18k a month for the whole operation. My customers range from local truck drivers to corporate accounts (JB Hunt, Nestle, Amazon, etc)

Truck Mechanic: This ties back to the logistic business. I hired a mechanic as a contractor. He and I split labor cost. The most common service is oil change. I buy the oil at bulk at $7 a gallon locally. I sell it at $22 a gallon at the mechanic shop (within my truck parking lot). Thats a $15 margin per gallon. A typical truck needs about 10 gallons. So my oil profit is $150 per truck. We see about 8-10 trucks a day. So you can do the maths. The labor is usually $100 for the oil change (driver provides their oil filter). I get 50% of labor, so $50, for 8-10 trucks. So average daily profit is about $2k a day. Yes, some people make that kind of money with Tesla stocks or bitcoin, but this is a real world cash in hand money for services - just like dentistry.

Truck Wash: Overhead is mostly water + soap + labor. We have a dedicated bay with 2,000 psi power washing equipments for this - next to the mechanic shop bay. I buy the soap in bulk, 55 gallon barrels at $300 each. The soap is very concentrated and can usually get you 10-15 trucks per 1 gallon. So $300 in soap + water can wash 550-800 trucks at about $100 fee per truck. The labor is 2 teams with 2 men each (day and night shift), at $15/hour. Slow day, they wash 50 trucks, busy day close to 100. It takes about 15 mins to wash a truck. My water bill is about $1,200 a month for this operation. I would like to save money on labor and make the service fully automated - but the equipment and installation costs $250-300k. It could save me about $20k a month in labor cost.

Diesel fuel: Overhead is mainly merchant account. The fuel dispenser has a credit card reader that is specific for the trucking industry - so I pay 1.8% for my monthly volume. The truck facility currently has a 10k gallons underground diesel fuel tank. They cost about $80k. I buy my fuel bulk from different suppliers (prices change daily). As of yesterday, the rate from supplier was about $2.20 per gallon. Retail is about $2.60-2.80 per gallon around here. So my margin is about 0.50-0.60 cents per gallon. I currently sell about 10,000 gallons a day (which equates to about 30 empty trucks) - so $5-6k profit margin a day. I keep about 98.2% of that due to the credit card fees. My fuel dispenser is by Wayne and costed me about $25k. It pumps at a rate of 40 gallons a minute. Just to give you an idea, the regular gasoline pumps are at about 7-10 gallons per minute - depending of the dispenser brand.

Tire services: This is a bigger discussion. But I work with a vendor who supplies truck tires from China. A new single truck tire + install runs around $360 each at my shop. Most trucks are 18 wheelers. The profit margins per tire is about $100 plus splitting labor cost. We have a storage space for tires... for the most common tire brands. This is mostly every few months service for trucks.

I have other side businesses (including a dental assisting program) - but those are the main ones.

I'm very impressed with this cold front. Did you have family that were in the trucking industry? How did you come to learn the ins and outs of that world?

 

[D1Bound]

Years of Experience: 8+
Specialty or General: General
City or Rural: Surburban
Company (Corp or Private or Ownership): Private
Insurances: All PPO except UC/Fee schedules/medicaid/medicare/VA/HMO/discount plans
Days/weeks per year: 4.5 days @ 30 hours/week - probably taking off a total of 4 weeks a year
Salary: Take a guess, probably mentioned it in previous threads

How do I become like you Mr. Tanman

 

[AONLINE]

Kinda late to this thread but here is another data point from a brand new grad (class of 2021)

Years of Experience: 5 months
Specialty or General: General
Company (Corp or Private): Corporate
Salary: Guarantee is $150k/year, I think I will make about $165k over my first 12 months
Location: A metro area in the Midwest
Days/weeks per year: 4 days/week (8-5 M-Th)
Student Loan: $150k
Most of what I have done so far is single crown restoration, EXT (simple or surgical, but no impacted), and a handful of removable cases. I only did 3 RCTs in dental school and have only done another 3 RCTs over my last few months of practicing. My biggest goal working for this corporate is to gain speed and expand my skillsets.

 

[TanMan]

How do I become like you Mr. Tanman

Work hard, be flexible in your business decisions, don't be tied down, be willing to work efficiently and improve with every iteration of yourself, start cheap, learn to multitask, only learn what's needed in dental school and quickly learn the real world of dentistry. Maybe I missed something, I'll add on if I remember anything else. If you do what I outlined above, you'll make tons of money, work less hours, and not be poor like other inefficient dentists.