Despair at Orientation

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Wellwornlad, I don't think physicians should get all the praise. When I become a physician I will be expect myself to get the same treatment normal decent human beings. So, there is your entitlement, etc. crap argument.
The people who should get the most praise are Physics PhD researchers who do extraordinary work along with biochemistry, chemistry, and mathematics PhD. Not doctors nor lawyers nor any other professionals!!


Don't use medicine/your future profession to give you leverage for your personal views.

:laugh:

The people who deserve praise are those who actually do something useful for humanity. Most mathematicians of today don't. The vast majority of mathematics we use in the inventions and instrumentation of the present day was developed centuries ago. Same goes for most science researchers. Either that, or the gratification is indeed VERY delayed (i.e. often decades after you're dead).

That said, I will agree that a career in the hard sciences is in many ways harder than medicine - less hours but often even more delayed gratification, i.e. PhD + up to three postdocs + tenure track rat-race, low salary, fighting for funding. I wouldn't wish a research-only career on anybody. In my view, science is for geniuses (which none of us are and, let's face it, 99% of professional scientists aren't) who can hack the work easily and really bring something to the table, and for independently wealthy/aristocrats who explore their interests as they wish.
 
It's got nothing to do with egalitarianism. People may treat me differently, and let them for all I care. It's a weak person who hangs their self-esteem on such nonsense, that's all. And in the end, when your expectation to be treated "special" turns into entitlement, you turn into the raving #$$hole who throws temper tantrums ad nauseum and berates nurses for sport.

So yeah, I suppose it can go to one's head, but here's hoping that I'm not the sort to put undue stock in the perceptions of others. It'd be just as stupid to get depressed about myself because of those "toothless trailer trash" who hate me.

BTW, are you PandaBear or just a big fan of him?

People always say, "I don't care what other people think about me," but they don't really believe it. And when I say you are special, I don't mean that you can throw temper tantrums and act like a rock star. People will treat you differently if you are a physician and you act like one. You will get more respect and you will always get more deference than anybody else all things being equal until such a time as you demonstrate you don't deserve the special place that physicians occupy in society. Some people despise doctors but they are outliers and their disdain is a left-handed complement anyway. Even the welfare families generally stand or at least stop yammering on their cell-phones when I walk in the room. I am also probably the only representative of The Man who treats them with respect.

I repeat, I am not the biggest fan of American goat rodeodery but to say that physicians don't get and merit respect is to 1) Not understand your role in society, part of which is to both act differently and not to be so selfish that you take people's faith in doctors away from them and 2) To discard one of the only benefits of the profession except for money.

You believe what you believe now because you are at the bottom of the totem pole and nobody respects you anyway. Therefore it is easy to adopt false humility. Physicians have the real kind of humility which is confidence tempered by a healthy respect for their limitations and the vagaries of fortune.
 
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Wellwornlad, I don't think physicians should get all the praise. When I become a physician I will be expect myself to get the same treatment normal decent human beings. So, there is your entitlement, etc. crap argument.
The people who should get the most praise are Physics PhD researchers who do extraordinary work along with biochemistry, chemistry, and mathematics PhD. Not doctors nor lawyers nor any other professionals!!


Don't use medicine/your future profession to give you leverage for your personal views.


You also don't understand life and the human condition. Scientists and researchers are mostly drones and don't really interact with people in a way that sets them apart. A good lawyer, on the other hand, and a good doctor, are immediately vital to their clients and patients and are given exceptional respect because they are the recipients of a profound trust.

"Should get the most praise," means nothing. People are not stupid and they know the difference between their wise old doctor or their crafty, worldly attorney and some cheeto-eating graduate student.

Now, if you folks want to abandon the prestige of the medical profession and become nothing but technicians processing patients according to some ridiculous sense of equality...well, that's your choice and you may as well go to PA school.

It is a sad day when your Uncle Panda has to defend the medical profession.

You also need to understand that as a doctor, most of your job is completely ridiculous. Pure comedy. If you just want to be on the same level with your patients the foolishness of most of what you do will be unbearable.
 
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You also don't understand life and the human condition. Scientists and researchers are mostly drones and don't really interact with people in a way that sets them apart. A good lawyer, on the other hand, and a good doctor, are immediately vital to their clients and patients and are given exceptional respect because they are the recipients of a profound trust.

"Should get the most praise," means nothing. People are not stupid and they know the difference between their wise old doctor or their crafty, worldly attorney and some cheeto-eating graduate student.

Now, if you folks want to abandon the prestige of the medical profession and become nothing but technicians processing patients according to some ridiculous sense of equality...well, that's your choice and you may as well go to PA school.

It is a sad day when your Uncle Panda has to defend the medical profession.

I think the pre-meds and med students who have this mentality get the notion beat out of them in med school/residency. Even I used to think doctors were absurdly overpaid. I still think that's the case with certain specialties, but definitely don't hold that view in general anymore.
 
You also don't understand life and the human condition. Scientists and researchers are mostly drones and don't really interact with people in a way that sets them apart. A good lawyer, on the other hand, and a good doctor, are immediately vital to their clients and patients and are given exceptional respect because they are the recipients of a profound trust.

"Should get the most praise," means nothing. People are not stupid and they know the difference between their wise old doctor or their crafty, worldly attorney and some cheeto-eating graduate student.

Now, if you folks want to abandon the prestige of the medical profession and become nothing but technicians processing patients according to some ridiculous sense of equality...well, that's your choice and you may as well go to PA school.

It is a sad day when your Uncle Panda has to defend the medical profession.

panda bear, I am a HUGE fan of yours, and I would never let you fight the cause on your own. Give me a more years, and I'll be joining you!😀
 
You don't get to Capitalize willy Nilly just because It looks proper on "pAPer".


Yes, yes I do...because I am a good enough writer to know what works and what doesn't. "Sweet Mother of Abraham Lincoln" is an idiomatic expression that needs emphasis but, as I mentioned, not too much.

Read my ****ing blog. I'm no Conrad or Orwell but I can string a couple of coherent sentences together now and then.
 
You also don't understand life and the human condition. Scientists and researchers are mostly drones and don't really interact with people in a way that sets them apart. A good lawyer, on the other hand, and a good doctor, are immediately vital to their clients and patients and are given exceptional respect because they are the recipients of a profound trust.

"Should get the most praise," means nothing. People are not stupid and they know the difference between their wise old doctor or their crafty, worldly attorney and some cheeto-eating graduate student.

Now, if you folks want to abandon the prestige of the medical profession and become nothing but technicians processing patients according to some ridiculous sense of equality...well, that's your choice and you may as well go to PA school.

It is a sad day when your Uncle Panda has to defend the medical profession.

You also need to understand that as a doctor, most of your job is completely ridiculous. Pure comedy. If you just want to be on the same level with your patients the foolishness of most of what you do will be unbearable.

so you are one of those people who think doctors are god-like. Above and beyond all. Well dude you might want to give this some thought.

All of us have the potential to be geniuses. The people who get the most dreaded jobs do not know how to use their brains in a proper way. There is not some sort of intrinsic hierarchy that we are born. Us humans have made those hierarchies to quench our thirst for recognition, and pride.

And why do doctors today give patients the run around? Ordering useless tests, not able to make swift diagnosis, many times the real diagnosis is made at autopsy, and skyrocketing normal decent people's medical bills to the advantage of the filthy private insurance firms in this country. Your post implies that doctors needed to be lauded for their education, training, and the work that they do more than other professions. Well, doctors need to also be slapped down with mistakes they are making. Praising only boosts ego and pointing out mistakes neutralizes the irrational ego.

Btw, no doctor ever was nor probably (99.99999% sure) will be like Gandhi or Mother teresa. Merely being a medical professional won't even get you even 1% of the praise they deserve. So, please don't put the docs in the same category as them because that's an insult to the two greatest human beings that have ever lived on this planet.

Sure medicine is a prestige field. But don't slap down fields like physics and other hard sciences. After all, I really hope you know this.
Medicine is application of mostly biology, chemistry and physics. Like, engineering is an application of physics and chemistry. So, medicine is a derivative of the sciences that is used to diagnose and treat illnesses that affect the human species. Please, don't forget this. Without diagnosing and treating patients medicine is basically useless. So, don't give yourself too much credit for entering a field like medicine because it can be obtained in other fields as well.

You probably won't understand the truth that I have just told you because you are one of those insiders who will never listen to an outsider.
 
And why do doctors today give patients the run around? Ordering useless tests, not able to make swift diagnosis, many times the real diagnosis is made at autopsy, and skyrocketing normal decent people's medical bills to the advantage of the filthy private insurance firms in this country.
...
Well, doctors need to also be slapped down with mistakes they are making. Praising only boosts ego and pointing out mistakes neutralizes the irrational ego.
...
You probably won't understand the truth that I have just told you because you are one of those insiders who will never listen to an outsider.
...
Accepted C/O 2013:biglove::soexcited::soexcited::soexcited:
ignorance-poster.jpg
 
so you are one of those people who think doctors are god-like. Above and beyond all. Well dude you might want to give this some thought.

All of us have the potential to be geniuses. The people who get the most dreaded jobs do not know how to use their brains in a proper way. There is not some sort of intrinsic hierarchy that we are born. Us humans have made those hierarchies to quench our thirst for recognition, and pride.

And why do doctors today give patients the run around? Ordering useless tests, not able to make swift diagnosis, many times the real diagnosis is made at autopsy, and skyrocketing normal decent people's medical bills to the advantage of the filthy private insurance firms in this country. Your post implies that doctors needed to be lauded for their education, training, and the work that they do more than other professions. Well, doctors need to also be slapped down with mistakes they are making. Praising only boosts ego and pointing out mistakes neutralizes the irrational ego.

Btw, no doctor ever was nor probably (99.99999% sure) will be like Gandhi or Mother teresa. Merely being a medical professional won't even get you even 1% of the praise they deserve. So, please don't put the docs in the same category as them because that's an insult to the two greatest human beings that have ever lived on this planet.

Sure medicine is a prestige field. But don't slap down fields like physics and other hard sciences. After all, I really hope you know this.
Medicine is application of mostly biology, chemistry and physics. Like, engineering is an application of physics and chemistry. So, medicine is a derivative of the sciences that is used to diagnose and treat illnesses that affect the human species. Please, don't forget this. Without diagnosing and treating patients medicine is basically useless. So, don't give yourself too much credit for entering a field like medicine because it can be obtained in other fields as well.

You probably won't understand the truth that I have just told you because you are one of those insiders who will never listen to an outsider.

Dude, you don't know a thing about medicine. The opposite of "Abject-Humility-Gosh-I-Am-No-Better-Than-Anyone-Else" is not "God-like." There is a little room in between. A physician needs to be confident and to develop his own style, which can be anything from overtly compassionate to quietly dispassionate, but you need to exude confidence, ability, and every other character trait that will make total strangers take off their clothes and tell you things you probably don't want to know. Additionally, when you gather the family to inform them that their four-year-old has died, you need to have a degree of gravitas that is not common in our silly and flaccid age. Most patients do not want a guy with the bearing of their plumber breaking bad news to them, you understand

Now, if you can't understand that you are entering a profession and not just a trade, a profession that requires both intelligence, compassion, skill, and an extensive understanding of human nature then you are just going to be playing at it and the Goat Rodeo will have another dumb goat filling out the forms and checking all the boxes. Good manners and respect for your patients trumps cringing servility every time; it not being necessary to get down to your patient's level at all, the converse being actually true, that if you act like a physician should the patients will use their "Sunday manners" with you.

Nurses, by the way, prefer doctor who are polite, friendly, but not so golly-gosh-being-a-doctor-is-nothing-special that you are indecisive and unable to make their jobs easier.
 
Dude, you don't know a thing about medicine. The opposite of "Abject-Humility-Gosh-I-Am-No-Better-Than-Anyone-Else" is not "God-like." There is a little room in between. A physician needs to be confident and to develop his own style, which can be anything from overtly compassionate to quietly dispassionate, but you need to exude confidence, ability, and every other character trait that will make total strangers take off their clothes and tell you things you probably don't want to know. Additionally, when you gather the family to inform them that their four-year-old has died, you need to have a degree of gravitas that is not common in our silly and flaccid age. Most patients do not want a guy with the bearing of their plumber breaking bad news to them, you understand

Now, if you can't understand that you are entering a profession and not just a trade, a profession that requires both intelligence, compassion, skill, and an extensive understanding of human nature then you are just going to be playing at it and the Goat Rodeo will have another dumb goat filling out the forms and checking all the boxes. Good manners and respect for your patients trumps cringing servility every time; it not being necessary to get down to your patient's level at all, the converse being actually true, that if you act like a physician should the patients will use their "Sunday manners" with you.

Nurses, by the way, prefer doctor who are polite, friendly, but not so golly-gosh-being-a-doctor-is-nothing-special that you are indecisive and unable to make their jobs easier.
great post. Ever since I was accepted to medical school...i start in July.... most of my classmates are either extremely jealous or try to brown nose. Only my true friends are treating me in the same way. Almost every day, one of my teachers look at me directly during lecture saying how incompetent doctor's are and that they think they are better than everyone....she was a pre-med in undergrad. I agree that a doctor must be confident in himself and I am confident in my abilities and some take that as arrogance, but I am open to suggestions when they are valid. A classmate of mine just got into one of the worst physical theraphy schools in the country... i did not say anything... i just said congrats and I am so happy for you. She is now acting like she is the queen of the universe and has turned into a Huge D.O. basher once she learned I am going to an osteopathic school. It's hard to treat someone with respect when they act like that
 
Wow, I had a blast during orientation...this stuff was probably barely on my mind back then.

Anyways, the number of hours you work once you're out of residency are largely up to you. Of course, until you're through with residency I think that 48 hours number is a little too optimistic.

I won't lie and say that I haven't been thinking about the huge number of hours and the sacrifice of personal life myself, but even with these thoughts I still think it was the right choice. Of course, I'm a guy and I have somewhat more leeway time-wise with starting a family than say, a nontrad female student who took 5 years off would. Then again...I'm also trying to match derm so it's a little different than if you've always wanted to be a neurosurgeon but you think working 48 hours is too much. :laugh:
 
After three years and two attempts, I'm finally about to start medical school. I've shadowed, done research, studied, MCATed and thought seriously about what it takes to be a physician. I thought I was ready.

Orientation started Tuesday. I've been crying myself to sleep since then. It's finally hitting me how much time and sacrifice it will take to become a physician. I want to have a family life. Working 48hrs. a week isn't what I want. Yet I don't know what else I can do. I've never considered another career. I'm going to see a campus counselor today.

stop being a ***** and man up. just find ways to beat the system and remember

C=MD
 
Pff, all this talk about long hours. There are plenty of specialties where you can work 40 hours/week or less. It depends on how much money you want to make. EM docs can work 32 hours a week and make decent money. You could even work less if you wanted. There is no "invisible hand" out there forcing you to work 60 hours. It's all in what specialty you choose. Don't want lots of call and long hours? Don't be a surgeon, to start with.
 
Someone PM’d me, asking for an update on my situation. Here goes:

I am sooooooo glad I stuck it out. Dropping out for PA school would’ve been one of the worst decisions I could’ve made—well, besides robbing escorts at the Copley Marriott. Not that being a PA is bad---it’s a necessary and respected career. It’s just that I wouldn’t have had the depth and breadth of training that an MD would have---which is what I decided I wanted. Having a good mentor helped in this situation. He told me to wait a month, and if after that month I still wanted to drop out and become a PA, then do it. I submitted a CASPA to a few schools, just in case, though. Then I waited. By the end of that month, I got into the routine of going to class and studying. The material was fascinating, and I felt fully engaged in what I was doing---so I stayed. Speaking to a counselor also helped.

When I started this thread, I wasn’t only dealing with career anxiety, but also a torrent of emotions related to being separated from family, close friends, and my then longtime girlfriend (now fiancée) and my impending shrinkage of freedom after coming off a 7 month hiatus, where I did whatever I wanted. I was “catastrophizing,” according to a counselor. She said these feelings would probably pass if I only waited it out and didn’t do anything rash. It didn’t help that my week-long orientation consisted mostly of intimidation (from my perspective, anyway) sessions whose messages consisted of: “You have to study more than you ever have before, or else you’ll fail. Expect little free time.” And, “Medicine is a hard road, you work long hours and you never get to see your loved ones as much as you’d like. Alcoholism, suicide, and divorce rates are higher among doctors than most other professions.” Then the Dean said something that pushed me over the edge and made me seek out the counseling in the first place, though in retrospect I may have misheard him. The Dean said something to the effect that his career in Medicine led to the break-up of his marriage. Since I had just extricated myself from the loving arms of my intended fiancée to go to that then-perceived hell-hole of a school that was the last thing I wanted to hear. Looking back, I think that’s what originally pushed me over the edge. Again, I could have misinterpreted what the dean said, or I misheard him. Anyway, thank goodness that’s all in the past---that was an incredibly tortuous moment in my life. At the very least it taught me that emotional pain can be just as bad as physical pain.

My advice to those having doubts about entering medical school would be to speak to a variety of people in order to get a wide spectrum of perspectives---don’t rely only on SDN: seriously, speak to several different people face to face. A mentor, a counselor, a primary care doc, and a specialist would be a good mixture. I would also advise that no matter how bad you feel right now, don’t do anything rash. Just wait it out for a while, and most likely your existential angst will pass. I worried about waiting it out though, since there were certain cut-off dates to get my tuition money back. If I had waited, then decided to quit, I would still have owed half-a-year’s tuition to Citibank. That would’ve sucked, but it would’ve sucked even more to quit immediately, and then regret it later on. Better to be sure about your career path than to verve wildly across career tracks based on your emotional state of the week. Also, in this economic climate, Medicine is one of the safer career areas. If you do decide to leave, be sure you have something (either a job or a sugar daddy) waiting for you on the outside. It’s rough out there right now. If anyone has any more questions, please don’t hesitate to PM me. The memory of the anguish I felt on orientation week will probably stay with me for the rest of my life. If my advice can somehow shorten or attenuate those feelings in current or future med students, then the time I spent writing this, instead of studying for my neuroscience class, will have been put to good use.

Something else I’d like to add: I still don't want to work more than 40-45hrs/wk. If I have to, I'll do it, but I won't be excited about it. My instincts tell me that as long as I keep my total debt level below 200k, pick the right specialty, and live in a place with a reasonable cost of living, I should be able to tailor my workweek shorter than 48hrs/wk. Even in primary care. I won’t be making bank, of course, but I’ll have more free time, and still be able to handle my debts. Or at least I hope. To an potential trolls or flamers of this last paragraph: Suck on tha' straw! This is SDN after all---I know how they play 'round here. 🙂
 
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