Devastating score drop...how screwed am I?

[-FRET-]

I scored a 507 on 6/28 and dropped to a 501 on 8/29.

I walked out of my retake feeling SO much more confident and truthfully have no idea what happened. I’m devastated, especially since my primary has already been verified.

In all my anxious researching, I’ve only confused myself more. I have seen several different ways schools consider multiple scores: some “only consider your highest score,” some “only consider your most recent,” some “consider your average” and some even “consider all scores and trend.” Does this mean I still have a shot with schools who only consider your highest score??? I’m aware they have the ability to see both but how can they only consider your highest without the other score biasing them???

If anyone has an input on this- it’d be GREATLY appreciated. & I apologize if I posted this in the wrong place- I’m new here... Thanks guys!

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[GreenDuck12]

How many schools did you list on your primary application?

 

[-FRET-]

How many schools did you list on your primary application?

I have applied to:
Albany Medical College
California Northstate University College of Medicine
California University of Science and Medicine
Central Michigan University College of Medicine
Drexel University College of Medicine
Eastern Virginia Medical School
Frank H. Netter MD School of Medicine at Quinnipiac University
George Washington University School of Medicine and Health Sciences
Georgetown University School of Medicine
Kaiser Permanente Bernard J. Tyson School of Medicine
Lewis Katz School of Medicine at Temple University
Loyola University Chicago Stritch School of Medicine
Medical College of Wisconsin
Meharry Medical College
New York Medical College
Oakland University William BeaumontSchool of Medicine
Oregon Health & Science University School of Medicine
Robert Larner, M.D., College of Medicine at the University of Vermont
TCU and UNTHSC SOM
Tulane University School of Medicine
University of Colorado School of Medicine
University of Iowa Roy J. and Lucille A. Carver College of Medicine
University of Miami Leonard M. Miller School of Medicine
University of Missouri-Columbia School of Medicine
University of Washington School of Medicine
Virginia Tech Carilion School of Medicine
Wayne State School of Medicine
West Virginia University School of Medicine
Wright State University Boonshoft School of Medicine

I am aware that DO is more realistic given my stats, however my shadowing hours were cut short due to COVID and I do not have an LoR from a physician. I feel my app is strong otherwise but with MCAT scores like this....

 

[GreenDuck12]

It was a mistake to list all schools on primary while waiting for a score report. An MD was possible with a 507 but is highly improbably with a 501. Most schools look at the most recent mcat, which would be the 501. You should apply broadly to mid tier DO schools for your best chance at an admission this cycle.

 

[MaxCycle42]

Given the fact you don't have a LOR from a physician. Most DO and MD schools need that. That's another punch to your application.

 

[-FRET-]

It was a mistake to list all schools on primary while waiting for a score report. An MD was possible with a 507 but is highly improbably with a 501. Most schools look at the most recent mcat, which would be the 501. You should apply broadly to mid tier DO schools for your best chance at an admission this cycle.

Yup- learned that the hard way I have heard from admissions at slightly less than half of these schools that they only consider the highest MCAT score. My question is essentially how can they only consider the highest if they also have access to the lowest?

 

[-FRET-]

Given the fact you don't have a LOR from a physician. Most DO and MD schools need that. That's another punch to your application.

One of my two research PIs is an MD/PhD, does that help me at all in respect to their LoR?

 

[PlsLetMeIn21]

Time to regroup and take a year to fill in the gaps. You should really consider withdrawing your application and spend the next eight months getting your clinical experience up and redoing the MCAT. How did you prepare for the MCAT each time? Did you do anything different your second time that made you possibly overconfident?

 

[KnightDoc]

I scored a 507 on 6/28 and dropped to a 501 on 8/29.

I walked out of my retake feeling SO much more confident and truthfully have no idea what happened. I’m devastated, especially since my primary has already been verified.

In all my anxious researching, I’ve only confused myself more. I have seen several different ways schools consider multiple scores: some “only consider your highest score,” some “only consider your most recent,” some “consider your average” and some even “consider all scores and trend.” Does this mean I still have a shot with schools who only consider your highest score??? I’m aware they have the ability to see both but how can they only consider your highest without the other score biasing them???

If anyone has an input on this- it’d be GREATLY appreciated. & I apologize if I posted this in the wrong place- I’m new here... Thanks guys!

You ALWAYS have a shot, so nobody can honestly tell you otherwise, but there is no way to sugarcoat this. A six point drop on a retake taken two months later is terrible, and will not be looked at neutrally anywhere, even at schools that say they take the highest. In fact, I hope everyone considering retaking okay but not great scores reads this, because this is the risk everyone glosses over when they elect a retake without allowing adequate time to meaningfully improve their expected performance.

It doesn't mean this can't be overcome, but, you probably hurt yourself everywhere. What's done is done, and your apps are in, so there is not a lot of value in dwelling on it, unless you haven't submitted secondaries yet. If that's the case, you might want to consider asking someone like @Goro or @Faha for advice on pruning your list to avoid throwing away money at schools where the new, lower score will be particularly devastating, and adding DOs. Good luck.

 

[-FRET-]

You ALWAYS have a shot, so nobody can honestly tell you otherwise, but there is no way to sugarcoat this. A six point drop on a retake taken two months later is terrible, and will not be looked at neutrally anywhere, even at schools that say they take the highest. In fact, I hope everyone considering retaking okay but not great scores reads this, because this is the risk everyone glosses over when they elect a retake without allowing adequate time to meaningfully improve their expected performance.

It doesn't mean this can't be overcome, but, you probably hurt yourself everywhere. What's done is done, and your apps are in, so there is not a lot of value in dwelling on it, unless you haven't submitted secondaries yet. If that's the case, you might want to consider asking someone like @Goro or @Faha for advice on pruning your list to avoid throwing away money at schools where the new, lower score will be particularly devastating, and adding DOs. Good luck.

Thank you for this honest, straightforward answer. As much as it sucks- it’s what I figured I would hear. I hope as well that others considering a retake see this because if someone can learn vicariously through my situation, at least SOME good will come out of it. Goro & Faha have been super helpful in figuring out where to go from here. Thanks again.

 

[-FRET-]

Time to regroup and take a year to fill in the gaps. You should really consider withdrawing your application and spend the next eight months getting your clinical experience up and redoing the MCAT. How did you prepare for the MCAT each time? Did you do anything different your second time that made you possibly overconfident?

When you say withdraw- do you mean not send in my secondaries or email their admissions & specify I would like to withdraw my application? (If so, does that mean I won’t be considered a re-applicant next cycle?) Because I don’t have the option to withdraw my AMCAS application anymore- the button is grayed out. And the first time, I just studied some MCAT quick sheets for about a week and took two FLs (I was working two full time jobs and overestimated how much time I would have to study). The second time- I took a few weeks off of one job, went through all of the Kaplan books (every book except CARS since I scored in the 90th percentile & wanted to focus on my shortcomings) and took a shortened practice exam (diagnostic 515). So you’re right, being overconfident probably played a huge role. I just rushed in applying this cycle overall.

 

[KnightDoc]

When you say withdraw- do you mean not send in my secondaries or email their admissions & specify I would like to withdraw my application? (If so, does that mean I won’t be considered a re-applicant next cycle?) Because I don’t have the option to withdraw my AMCAS application anymore- the button is grayed out. And the first time, I just studied some MCAT quick sheets for about a week and took two FLs (I was working two full time jobs and overestimated how much time I would have to study). The second time- I took a few weeks off of one job, went through all of the Kaplan books (every book except CARS since I scored in the 90th percentile & wanted to focus on my shortcomings) and took a shortened practice exam (diagnostic 515). So you’re right, being overconfident probably played a huge role. I just rushed in applying this cycle overall.

No, you will definitely be a reapplicant everywhere you have applied. This is why people use throwaway schools, to avoid being a reapplicant at schools they care about.

If you haven't sent in a secondary, not sending it in will do the trick (the deadline will pass and that will be that). If you have sent it in, you'd have to use whatever process they specify (e-mail, portal, whatever) to withdraw. If you have already sent in your secondary, you have nothing to gain by withdrawing, so you might as well let it play out and see what happens. If you haven't, I previously advised reconsidering your list, not to avoid being a reapplicant, but just to save time, money and effort on lost causes.

 

[-FRET-]

No, you will definitely be a reapplicant everywhere you have applied. This is why people use throwaway schools, to avoid being a reapplicant at schools they care about.

If you haven't sent in a secondary, not sending it in will do the trick (the deadline will pass and that will be that). If you have sent it in, you'd have to use whatever process they specify (e-mail, portal, whatever) to withdraw. If you have already sent in your secondary, you have nothing to gain by withdrawing, so you might as well let it play out and see what happens. If you haven't, I previously advised reconsidering your list, not to avoid being a reapplicant, but just to save time, money and effort on lost causes.

I qualified for the Fee Assistance Program so I don’t pay anything to submit any of these secondaries. Does that change your position at all? Or is the time/effort 100% pointless? (Where I’m at right now is naively & foolishly hanging on to the tiny sliver of a chance that SOMETHING in my app will give me a chance).

 

[KnightDoc]

I qualified for the Fee Assistance Program so I don’t pay anything to submit any of these secondaries. Does that change your position at all? Or is the time/effort 100% pointless? (Where I’m at right now is naively & foolishly hanging on to the tiny sliver of a chance that SOMETHING in my app will give me a chance).

Well, yeah, that changes the cost part of the equation!! You're a reapplicant anyway. Since you already used the FAP on the primaries, it costs you nothing to send the secondaries. Strategically though, it might make sense to pay to send primaries to different schools you might be more competitive for now, rather than chasing schools you might no longer have a reasonable shot at. I'd love to hear what @Faha and @Goro have to say about that. Question -- if you have FAP but apply to more than 20 schools, do you still get free secondaries at the additional schools, even though you didn't use FAP to submit their primaries?

 

[deleted555445]

Given the fact you don't have a LOR from a physician. Most DO and MD schools need that. That's another punch to your application.

just FYI i dont think this is true for the majority of MD's. there are definitely some that do, but its a case-by-case basis. i.e. USUHS definitely requires a clinician letter, while say Albany (the first school on the list above) does not.

 

[-FRET-]

Well, yeah, that changes the cost part of the equation!! You're a reapplicant anyway. Since you already used the FAP on the primaries, it costs you nothing to send the secondaries. Strategically though, it might make sense to pay to send primaries to different schools you might be more competitive for now, rather than chasing schools you might no longer have a reasonable shot at. I'd love to hear what @Faha and @Goro have to say about that. Question -- if you have FAP but apply to more than 20 schools, do you still get free secondaries at the additional schools, even though you didn't use FAP to submit their primaries?

Yep- as long as you qualify for FAP, all secondary fees are waived (even over the 20 school limit for primaries) unless the school doesn’t participate- which I haven’t come across yet. & attached is the advice I got from Goro & Faha.

 

[j4pac]

Good luck! Tough situation. It's not over yet...and you're doing the right thing coming here to formulate a plan.

 

[KnightDoc]

Yep- as long as you qualify for FAP, all secondary fees are waived (even over the 20 school limit for primaries) unless the school doesn’t participate- which I haven’t come across yet. & attached is the advice I got from Goro & Faha.

Well, there you go! Since you can go over 20 schools, there is no reason not to throw in free secondaries where you already applied. Expect nothing, and you have no downside!

Add the DOs they advised you to, and, in addition, add any low tier MDs that seem viable. As you were told, you have a very good shot at DO. For MD, you're probably looking at at least another year, with no guarantees assuming at this point at least a 510 on a MCAT retake. Good luck!!

 

[-FRET-]

Well, there you go! Since you can go over 20 schools, there is no reason not to throw in free secondaries where you already applied. Expect nothing, and you have no downside!

Add the DOs they advised you to, and, in addition, add any low tier MDs that seem viable. As you were told, you have a very good shot at DO. For MD, you're probably looking at at least another year, with no guarantees assuming at this point at least a 510 on a MCAT retake. Good luck!!

Is applying to DO a smart move this cycle since I don’t have a letter from a physician? I thought that was a pretty firm requirement for them.
My plan if this cycle doesn’t work out was to do a DIY post-bacc to boost my sGPA and then get as much more clinical experience as I can (including continuing shadowing in any way possible with the changes due to COVID) and get that letter & then apply DO next cycle. Thoughts?

 

[KnightDoc]

Is applying to DO a smart move this cycle since I don’t have a letter from a physician? I thought that was a pretty firm requirement for them.
My plan if this cycle doesn’t work out was to do a DIY post-bacc to boost my sGPA and then get as much more clinical experience as I can (including continuing shadowing in any way possible with the changes due to COVID) and get that letter & then apply DO next cycle. Thoughts?

I'm in no way a DO expert -- I only know that it is considered equivalent other than for uber competitive specialties, and has the advantage of being far easier to be admitted to. It's a smart move if you don't want to wait another year.

If you are going to try to boost your GPA, then you are looking at several years. Only you know if it's going to be worth it to you, and if all that effort is likely to get you someplace you could just get now (DO). Remember, besides GPA, you're also now going to need a significantly higher MCAT for MD.

Why can't you get a letter from a physician you already shadowed now? The advantage of waiting is it will give you a better shot at MD, but at the cost of time, with no guarantee of success. There is no right or wrong answer here. It comes down to how much more you value MD over DO, how patient you are willing to be, and how willing you are to do the extra work, as well as how confident you are of success.

 

[gyngyn]

Given the fact you don't have a LOR from a physician. Most DO and MD schools need that. That's another punch to your application.

Most MD schools would really rather not get a physician letter. DO schools do love a DO letter, though.

 

[-FRET-]

I'm in no way a DO expert -- I only know that it is considered equivalent other than for uber competitive specialties, and has the advantage of being far easier to be admitted to. It's a smart move if you don't want to wait another year.

If you are going to try to boost your GPA, then you are looking at several years. Only you know if it's going to be worth it to you, and if all that effort is likely to get you someplace you could just get now (DO). Remember, besides GPA, you're also now going to need a significantly higher MCAT for MD.

Why can't you get a letter from a physician you already shadowed now? The advantage of waiting is it will give you a better shot at MD, but at the cost of time, with no guarantee of success. There is no right or wrong answer here. It comes down to how much more you value MD over DO, how patient you are willing to be, and how willing you are to do the extra work, as well as how confident you are of success.

Most MD schools would really rather not get a physician letter. DO schools do love a DO letter, though.

But is a DO (or even MD) letter a firm necessity for DO schools?

 

[-FRET-]

I'm in no way a DO expert -- I only know that it is considered equivalent other than for uber competitive specialties, and has the advantage of being far easier to be admitted to. It's a smart move if you don't want to wait another year.

If you are going to try to boost your GPA, then you are looking at several years. Only you know if it's going to be worth it to you, and if all that effort is likely to get you someplace you could just get now (DO). Remember, besides GPA, you're also now going to need a significantly higher MCAT for MD.

Why can't you get a letter from a physician you already shadowed now? The advantage of waiting is it will give you a better shot at MD, but at the cost of time, with no guarantee of success. There is no right or wrong answer here. It comes down to how much more you value MD over DO, how patient you are willing to be, and how willing you are to do the extra work, as well as how confident you are of success.

I shadowed our state medical examiner & as he was just returning from time off due to an injury- most of the autopsies were performed by the residents. The contact I had with him was limited to the briefings and the one or two autopsies he performed himself. So when I asked, he said he unfortunately feels we didn’t have enough one-on-one mentoring for him to write an LoR that would be valued by adcoms & he hopes that after COVID he can continue the mentorship as he would be fully healed. That timeline just didn’t line up with the cycle I (hastily) applied to. That being said, would a letter from the 4th year resident I spent the most time with be valued as a physician letter?

As for the rest, thank you VERY much for your input- I appreciate all of your help.

 

[KnightDoc]

But is a DO (or even MD) letter a firm necessity for DO schools?

Again, I'm no expert, but my understanding is the same as yours (that it is for many schools -- don't be fooled -- "recommended"=required! ). The only way to know for sure is to go on some schools' websites and see for yourself. If you're not into it, don't allow yourself to be pressured into doing it. Take your time and give MD your best shot before "settling." Otherwise, every time you are unhappy about something you will play "what if?" with yourself and make yourself miserable. If you give MD your best shot and it doesn't work out, at least you will have no regrets. JMHO.

 

[KnightDoc]

I shadowed our state medical examiner & as he was just returning from time off due to an accident- most of the autopsies were performed by the residents. The contact I had with him was limited to the briefings and the one or two autopsies he performed himself. So when I asked, he said he unfortunately feels we didn’t have enough one-on-one mentoring for him to write an LoR that would be valued by adcoms & he hopes that after COVID he can continue the mentorship as he would be fully healed. That timeline just didn’t line up with the cycle I (hastily) applied to. That being said, would a letter from the 4th year resident I spent the most time with be valued as a physician letter?

As for the rest, thank you VERY much for your input- I appreciate all of your help.

Again, no expert but I don't see why not. A resident has a MD degree and a license, correct? The only thing is, I think DO might want DO letters -- they seem to value the difference between DO and MD.

 

[-FRET-]

Again, I'm no expert, but my understanding is the same as yours (that it is for many schools -- don't be fooled -- "recommended"=required! ). The only way to know for sure is to go on some schools' websites and see for yourself. If you're not into it, don't allow yourself to be pressured into doing it. Take your time and give MD your best shot before "settling." Otherwise, every time you are unhappy about something you will play "what if?" with yourself and make yourself miserable. If you give MD your best shot and it doesn't work out, at least you will have no regrets. JMHO.

Thank you immensely for all of your feedback!!!

 

[Blueprint Med School]

I qualified for the Fee Assistance Program so I don’t pay anything to submit any of these secondaries. Does that change your position at all? Or is the time/effort 100% pointless? (Where I’m at right now is naively & foolishly hanging on to the tiny sliver of a chance that SOMETHING in my app will give me a chance).

Yeah, I would say it changes the equation a bit. You're playing with house money now. If you don't get any IIs, you haven't lost anything considering you'll be a reapplicant. If you get an II, go in there with nothing to lose and get valuable experience. You just never know. Funky things happen.

David D, MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

 

[deleted1066189]

But is a DO (or even MD) letter a firm necessity for DO schools?

Most MD schools don't even need a physician letter. Most DO schools do need a physician letter...there are only a handful that require DO letters.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Covid has likely changed the letter dynamic a bit.

 

[Goro]

But is a DO (or even MD) letter a firm necessity for DO schools?

This cycle it appears that most DO schools are dropping the clinical LOR requirement.

In a normal cycle, having a DO always helps, but lacking one doesn't hurt.

 

[MaxCycle42]

This cycle it appears that most DO schools are dropping the clinical LOR requirement.

In a normal cycle, having a DO always helps, but lacking one doesn't hurt.

Wow. I had no idea. Sorry if I misinformed anyone

 

[GoPenguinsGo]

Given the fact you don't have a LOR from a physician. Most DO and MD schools need that. That's another punch to your application.

True for DO schools, not true for MD schools.

 

[Blueprint Med School]

Covid has likely changed the letter dynamic a bit.

This. Things that are niceties but not critical to an application (physician letters, shadowing) are all being fairly excused during the pandemic. These things are normally check boxes anyway with the aforementioned exception that some DO schools like to see a DO letter.

David D MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

 

[candbgirl]

Yup- learned that the hard way I have heard from admissions at slightly less than half of these schools that they only consider the highest MCAT score. My question is essentially how can they only consider the highest if they also have access to the lowest?

They can’t and that’s really part of the problem you have! No way to account for biases of the reviewers!

 

[GreenDuck12]

They can’t and that’s really part of the problem you have! No way to account for biases of the reviewers!

It is possible - some admissions deliberations are conducted without mcat scores and GPA to avoid bias (interviews etc). Additionally, some schools could have an administrative assistant, or similar person, process applications and only allow the highest mcat score to be used internally.

 

[-FRET-]

This. Things that are niceties but not critical to an application (physician letters, shadowing) are all being fairly excused during the pandemic. These things are normally check boxes anyway with the aforementioned exception that some DO schools like to see a DO letter.

David D MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

I’m grateful the DO application specifically includes a COVID question- I can address my lack of a physician letter here. Thank you so much you guys for your input! @Goro thank you again as well!

 

[-FRET-]

This. Things that are niceties but not critical to an application (physician letters, shadowing) are all being fairly excused during the pandemic. These things are normally check boxes anyway with the aforementioned exception that some DO schools like to see a DO letter.

David D MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors

Thank you for your feedback- I feel less discouraged and am looking forward to tossing my hat in the ring at some DO schools!

 

[-FRET-]

It is possible - some admissions deliberations are conducted without mcat scores and GPA to avoid bias (interviews etc). Additionally, some schools could have an administrative assistant, or similar person, process applications and only allow the highest mcat score to be used internally.

I was REALLY hoping this would be the case. Fingers crossed. Thank you so much for your feedback!

 

[KnightDoc]

It is possible - some admissions deliberations are conducted without mcat scores and GPA to avoid bias (interviews etc). Additionally, some schools could have an administrative assistant, or similar person, process applications and only allow the highest mcat score to be used internally.

Actually, no. Interviews being closed file are one thing, in order to have an interviewer's impression be unbiased. I ASSURE you, voting adcom members see an entire file while voting on admission. Just ask anyone here who is actually on an adcom.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Actually, no. Interviews being closed file are one thing, in order to have an interviewer's impression be unbiased. I ASSURE you, voting adcom members see an entire file while voting on admission. Just ask anyone here who is actually on an adcom.

Nope, not true in all cases. At my school, applicants are rated on PS, Secondary essays, EC’s, and interviews, separately from grades and test scores. Grades and test scores are included in the final algorithm to determine an applicants overall score and their position on an admit, hold/WL, or reject list. Part of this is because the assumption is if you were invited to interview your scores and grades are strong enough to warrant further consideration, even if that means an excellent interview is needed to seal the deal.

 

[KnightDoc]

Nope, not true in all cases. At my school, applicants are rated on PS, Secondary essays, EC’s, and interviews, separately from grades and test scores. Grades and test scores are included in the final algorithm to determine an applicants overall score and their position on an admit, hold/WL, or reject list. Part of this is because the assumption is if you were invited to interview your scores and grades are strong enough to warrant further consideration, even if that means an excellent interview is needed to seal the deal.

So, at your school there is no vote, and an application is just scored and ranked by algorithm? Interesting!!!

 

[FutureGeorgiaDoc]

501 is good enough to get into medical school. Some of these fools are smoking.

 

[GreenDuck12]

So, at your school there is no vote, and an application is just scored and ranked by algorithm? Interesting!!!

Voting is after when finalizing the list. In the event of ties, grades and scores are released to members so they can take that into account - mostly for wait list rankings though.

 

[-FRET-]

501 is good enough to get into medical school. Some of these fools are smoking.

A 501 isn’t ideal (especially for MD- which is all I have applied to so far this cycle), but I understand it’s not the end of the world. The negative trend in my score is what I was concerned about. From my understanding (& it seems everyone else’s) a six point drop is pretty much lethal unless I retake & improve significantly or have something else in my application that renders this drop negligible. Bottom line- I wish I hadn’t retaken it at all until I was CERTAIN I was ready. Rushed the whole thing. Hindsight’s 20/20.
Love your positivity though! I really needed it right now so thank you