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I don't think I went into med school thinking it was a calling. It's after M3 you realize why it is more of a calling and not "just a job" in many aspects.
Did I get into medical school for the wrong reasons?
Started by james201423
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I think the people ganging up on DermViser need to look at the entirety of the process. Yes, you can be a physician and only do it for the money, but you're going to be miserable. I think it starts earlier than medical school, though. The entire application process, coupled with the insane amount of applicants for a very small number of seats, makes it inherently unfair. Every spot in medical school taken up by someone with a motivation of money/power/prestige is one spot taken away from someone who doesn't care as much about that and might be a better clinician because of it. If you love your job, you'll try to be better at it, whereas if you hate your job, you will be less likely to put in effort to better your practice. If they would be happy in a multitude of professions, they should step back and let the other person, who wouldn't be happy pursuing anything other than medicine, matriculate and become a physician. I believe this is true of many professions, not just medicine, especially if one has no intention of clinical practice.
I don't disagree that becoming a physician requires great and respectable sacrifice. If one believes that your work/career should be your biggest priority in life, then one probably would have the med school faculty member-type views you describe. But if one believes otherwise (eg. spending time with your children should be your biggest priority), then one would probably not be so quick to look down upon people who are anxiously awaiting punching the time clock at five. Some people can't wait to leave work because they hate their job...and those people probably suck at their job. Some people can't wait to leave work despite the fact that they love it there because they love their kids even more and want to be home with them.
I am in no way saying that those who choose to work a lot don't love their kids. I am just giving a hypothetical example of the flawed thinking there is in supposing those who work more hours have nobler goals in life.
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@DermViser ... Boy! I have been watching that argument and you are all over the map man... You realized it was a calling for you in MS3 and you want someone to leave as a MS1 because he thought he went to med school for the wrong reason... Maybe he might find out 'it's a calling' (I hate to say that crap) for him when he/she become an attending...
YES ... It's perfectly fine for someone to go into medicine solely for financial reason as long as that person is honest and understand what he/she getting into...
YES ... It's perfectly fine for someone to go into medicine solely for financial reason as long as that person is honest and understand what he/she getting into...
A lot of pll have said that m3 is a lot of butt kissing. Are u sure that medicine is your "calling" or just butt kissing?
How do you know that?
No doubt. Although PT pays crap and there are plenty of schools with <7% acceptance rate. Applicant numbers are much smaller then med school applicant numbers of course, but class sizes are all between 25-50. The point it, people are trying to narrow down the way to choose a career to a simple formula or a simple thought process when it's not. Each career contains myriad pros and cons and you have to spend the time researching and mapping those out and choosing the career for which the pros most heavily outweigh the cons. This fear that exists among my generation of making a career/educational decision for pragmatic reasons is just total nonsense.
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Definitely. I was just pointing out that this is the confusion that commonly arises when people talk about a particular career choice being a calling in life.
And again, the bolded sentence above proves why medicine is a calling, bc many times the needs of your patient will supercede your own needs and wants. This is very much unlike nursing (which works in shifts), or PT, etc. The reason to punch the time clock is irrelevant.
Know that it's your calling? That it's the only thing you'd be happy doing? Well I would suggest getting some life experience, but people tend to get defensive about taking a year or two off. Med school gunners don't want to be told that their plan may not be perfect *gasp*. My point is this. If you could see yourself doing something else, anything else, take some time to find out if that's what you should do, and let those who have already found out get the opportunity to pursue their dreams.
You deleted the last line of my post in which I said that the sentence you have bolded was a hypothetical example of the logical flaw inherent in the thought that working more hours equals nobler life pursuits. Lawyers often work 100 hours/week, but their pursuits are not always noble.
Whether or not putting your needs below the needs of others is what defines something as a calling is another debate I suppose.
I guess it is.
I just want to point out that this is probably one of my favourite posts of all time... I can just imagine the ****storm that would ensue from the general public if any other health profession threatened to strike, but it's cool for nurses.
Yup. Only nurses can go on strike bc of salary/benefits, thus disrupting patient care, and then still claim to the public how much they care for patients vs. those greedy doctors.
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I agree with that assessment, but to assume that someone will be unhappy because some career was not 'a calling' (who invented that calling crap) is not logical... I just read the whole thread, I think it's weird... Do dermviser really believe that a PA/NP has a better financial 'outlook' than an ortho doc because they start making 80k 7 years earlier, and due to they can make money in compound interest?
Really the question I'm getting at is this: Do you believe medicine is the only profession (or one of the only professions) that is a calling? Can nursing, physical therapy or dentistry be a calling? Can graphic design or accounting be a calling? In each of these professions there are people who work even when they aren't getting paid for it (albeit perhaps less than some doctors), and some that don't. And in each of these professions there are all levels of dedication, just as there is in medicine.
So what makes medicine a calling but not some other career?
Because medicine is noble🙄
Did I say that? Since when does a NP/PA do Orthopedic Surgery?
How could you be happy if you went to work everyday and didn't enjoy what you did? Money can only get you so far. Yes it can buy all kinds of cool things, and that helps, but if you're spending 12 hours a day doing a job you can't stand, that's miserable. I know, because I've experienced it. Wouldn't you want to switch jobs with someone who does something you like to do? Instead of going through professional school, and then finding out you've made a mistake, you should try to avoid it in the first place...
The Puritans weighed in on this a few hundred years ago. Any/all vocations were a calling. Boom, solid consistent work ethics were birthed.
I thought you said PA/NP is a better way to make money than medicine... I just used ortho as an example...
The last survey I saw, 90%+ of Americans aren't happy about what they do! I guess we have a lot of disgruntled people out there...
Why not...who am I to say that someone else's vocation isn't a calling?
I'll believe nursing is a "calling" when they aren't more concerned about leaving right when their shift ends, rather than when patient tasks are completed. Nursing is complete shift work mentality. I know you're not comparing the rigor of physicians to physical therapy.
Graphic design and accounting are jobs -- you are not expected to do any projects or work on accounts and do it for free. Physicians ALL THE TIME see, work up, and manage patients of whom they won't see a dime in reimbursement, or it will be so low in reimbursement, it wouldn't be financially worth it to see that patient. Yet the public expects physicians in hospitals to see those patients, regardless, and physicians do that. Try getting your accountant to do your taxes and not pay him.
Source?
I was going to change it... It's worldwide... 60 something %
http://www.forbes.com/sites/susanad...outnumber-happy-ones-by-two-to-one-worldwide/
Last time I remember, PAs/NPs practice medicine - those are alternative pathways. Oh wait, NPs practice nursing (at least that's what they keep telling us). There are definitely certain specialties in which the PA/NP route would have been a better ROI, and in terms of certain competitive specialties (bc of competition for residency slots - which is required for physicians - without which their degree is useless), would be better to get to practice the field in the first place (Ortho is not one of them as an Ortho PA/NP does not do Orthopedic Surgery).
Many of these people take their jobs home with them...
So regularly working without remuneration is what defines a profession as a calling?
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What are these specialties?
That is hyperbole!
It definitely one of the things that contributes towards making a profession a calling, rather than being "just a job" - esp. when the public expects and demands it. Try going to your accountant and have him do the same.
It's a sincere question. I'm genuinely curious as to how @DermViser defines a career as a calling.
With respect to what you bolded, more of the primary care oriented specialties -- with ROI, I'm mainly referring to financial ROI.
It comes down to payment. There's a huge difference between being paid by the hour and fee for service/project. Unless you have a really altruistic tax person, you're going to pay for that service or do it yourself. The government mandates that people receive medical care, no matter their ability to pay, so and physicians are the ones that suffer. Nurses will get paid no matter what, as they get paid by the hour. Unless you really like being a physician, it's counter-intuitive to think that spending your time treating a homeless patient will be worth it. They will never pay.
No, but if you're willing to do this, you're probably in it for the right reasons. No one says anything about a nurse not giving a scheduled med when she's not on the clock. Conversely, if a physician is in the building, or even at home with a pager, he is expected to take care of whatever issue arises, even at 3am. And last time I checked, they aren't billing for every time the nurse calls for an order change. At least ours don't...
You're a smart person and you know just as well as I do that this is not a true statement. People in many fields, including many in the examples mentioned, are paid a salary that is determined based on a 40 hour work week, but they must work more than 40 hours a week (sometimes much more) to meet the demands that are placed upon them.
And as an aside, my wife is a graphic designer and has done work for free or for a discounted price for people who she easily could have charged on numerous occasions.
So what are the other things that contribute?
If I told you that physical therapy was my calling in life, what would you say to rebuff me?
Unlike nurses, PT, etc. Physicians don't get to clock in and clock out. It used to be like that for primary care for the longest time -- they see their outpatients and would admit their own patients in the hospital, where they had hospital privileges, as well. People valued having their own physician. Doesn't lead to a good work-life balance or family life, unlike a physical therapist, who can clock out and say, sorry, I have to see my kids, etc. Physicans are the main ones, if not only ones, taking call.
And it was a full choice on her part. The public does not have the expectation that graphic designers not charge for their services. Try having a physician tell a patient with chest pain that they'll start treating them when they have a valid credit card.
I already pointed that out...and I think this where dermviser put himself in trouble when he makes outlandish statement like that...
Thank you. I don't know why this concept is so hard for people to understand. I don't know how many other ways to explain it.
Does the public, as a whole, demand that physical therapists see patients for free?
Wow!
I promise, I totally understand the concept you are putting forth and I agree with you. I am trying to understand why the fact that physicians are expected by all the various powers and entities that be to sometimes work when they are not getting directly paid for it makes medicine a "calling in life".
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Last time I checked, some physicians work per hour too... Different jobs have different expectations!
No. Nor do they expect PTs to take call. There aren't really PT emergencies.
How does this disprove my hypothetical assertion that PT is my calling in life?
And please realize I am not trying to be one of these "I am a Doctor of Physical Therapy and I will usurp authority from the oppressive medical regime" people. Those people aren't doing any of us any good.
Every job IS a calling for people who want to make it a calling...
Can we stop using that stuff?
Pardon? The only physicians I know that work by the hour are moonlighters who have other full time jobs. Physicians aren't employees of hospitals/clinics. They are contractors that bill separately. That's why you get two bills; one from the hospital/clinic, and one from the physician group. If a physician doesn't see any patients, they don't get paid, unlike a nurse who gets paid even if they sit on their ass and never see a patient for the entire shift.
The theme of that thread, don't go into medicine if it's not a calling! What a dumb thread!
I am checking out... I need to spend 2 more hours on physio....
I am checking out... I need to spend 2 more hours on physio....
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