Did not qualify for any MD/PhD programs. Can I still do bench research with an MD?

[Alakazam123]

I realize this question has been asked in the past, but the anwers seem to change every few years.

Quite disappointed with the turnout. I know it is even harder to apply to the MD/PhD program during the 1st year of medical school, because you quite literally need to be at the very top of your class. Hence, I had the following questions:

1. Is it becoming more common or less common for MD's to do bench research?

2. Should I give up on wanting to do bench research and focus more on clinical development?

3. Is it really true that clinical research is considered inferior to bench research?

4. If I collaborated with a PI and handled the clinical aspect of his/her research, and wanted to patent the idea, does the PI hold the upper hand, as he/she discovered the drug or therapeutic target, etc.?

5. Can I do a post-doc with bench research for 4-5 years? What do I have to do as an MD in a Post-doc as opposed to a PhD in a post-doc to prove myself?

I'd appreciate any and all responses to these questions.

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[Lucca]

Moving to Physician Scientist board since you'll likely receive better responses here.

I'm too junior to offer much help but here are some quick resources to help you gain some insight.

1. https://acd.od.nih.gov/documents/reports/PSW_Report_ACD_06042014.pdf <- 2014 Physician Scientist Workforce report contains lots of info about who is doing what science, how much of it, and with which degrees.

2. Follow your heart and or the money/opportunities.

3. Just my opinion: Political answer is that both are necessary, complementary components of biomedical research and translational science. Personal opinion is that clinical research is not real science and only interesting from a study design perspective (doesnt mean I dont think the results arent interesting or worthwhile, just that the work itself is boring and simple).

4. Dont know enough to answer this.

5. You can do a research postdoc with an MD. You can do a research year through the NIH or HHMI as an MD student or through your medical school. You can do a PSTP (research intensive residency, shortened clinical track) residency in your field if you have a competitive enough research background as a medical student. Here are some examples for med students: External Scholarships | Duke School of Medicine

Read this FAQ for more info: Physician Scientist Forum Readme & FAQs (updated 3/21/10)

esp the thread where ppl with MDs, MD/PhDs, or Phd-To-MDs talk about their careers and paths.

 

[Alakazam123]

Anyone else?

 

[Alakazam123]

Please does anyone else also have some advice?

 

[Neuronix]

1. Is it becoming more common or less common for MD's to do bench research?

It's just uncommon in general.

2. Should I give up on wanting to do bench research and focus more on clinical development?

Your choice. You can always get a PhD later if you really want.

3. Is it really true that clinical research is considered inferior to bench research?

Inferior is in the mind of the beholder. What do you want to do?

4. If I collaborated with a PI and handled the clinical aspect of his/her research, and wanted to patent the idea, does the PI hold the upper hand, as he/she discovered the drug or therapeutic target, etc.?

This is complicated and I don't really understand the question you're asking. It would be very situationally dependent in any case.

5. Can I do a post-doc with bench research for 4-5 years? What do I have to do as an MD in a Post-doc as opposed to a PhD in a post-doc to prove myself?

Publish, get grants, the same things any other researcher has to do.

 

[Alakazam123]

It's just uncommon in general.



Your choice. You can always get a PhD later if you really want.



Inferior is in the mind of the beholder. What do you want to do?



This is complicated and I don't really understand the question you're asking. It would be very situationally dependent in any case.



Publish, get grants, the same things any other researcher has to do.

So essentially, I'll be at a disadvantage w/o a PhD? Is it worthless to try to prove myself as a MD/Post-doc...a hopeless cause?

 

[Neuronix]

Your challenge will be finding significant research experiences in the future that mesh with becoming a clinician and maintaining competence while juggling student debt. Just having PhD behind your name doesn't mean anything and you may have opportunities to get a PhD later such as during residency.

 

[Alakazam123]

Your challenge will be finding significant research experiences in the future that mesh with becoming a clinician and maintaining competence while juggling student debt. Just having PhD behind your name doesn't mean anything and you may have opportunities to get a PhD later such as during residency.

If I can get into those NIH-fellowships or HHMI fellowships, would that be helpful? Also, if I do clinical research during med school will it make it more difficult to find an opportunity to do bench research as a post-doc?

 

[Neuronix]

If I can get into those NIH-fellowships or HHMI fellowships, would that be helpful? Also, if I do clinical research during med school will it make it more difficult to find an opportunity to do bench research as a post-doc?

Yes it will help.

Best to do basic research as much as possible.

 

[LoGo]

I realize this question has been asked in the past, but the anwers seem to change every few years.

Quite disappointed with the turnout. I know it is even harder to apply to the MD/PhD program during the 1st year of medical school, because you quite literally need to be at the very top of your class. Hence, I had the following questions:

1. Is it becoming more common or less common for MD's to do bench research?

Uncommon, even considering MD/PhDs

2. Should I give up on wanting to do bench research and focus more on clinical development?

That's for you to decide.

3. Is it really true that clinical research is considered inferior to bench research?

No, not true at all.

4. If I collaborated with a PI and handled the clinical aspect of his/her research, and wanted to patent the idea, does the PI hold the upper hand, as he/she discovered the drug or therapeutic target, etc.?

Very situation dependent. If they developed the drug, and you were just the doctor to help them test it, then likely you would be entitled to about 0% of the patent. Here's a nice link detailing who should be considered an inventor on a patent: https://agsci.oregonstate.edu/sites/agsci/files/main/research/vrc_release_inventorship-gattari.pdf

5. Can I do a post-doc with bench research for 4-5 years? What do I have to do as an MD in a Post-doc as opposed to a PhD in a post-doc to prove myself?

Sure - but at 4-5 years, why not just do a PhD during or after residency? What you have to do in both is publish and get grants, though there might be more emphasis on teaching/supervising in the PhD-post doc route compared to the MD-post doc route. IMO, MD-post doc does not equate in research training to a formal PhD.

I'd appreciate any and all responses to these questions.

A couple other thoughts above. Good luck!

 

[LoGo]

Moving to Physician Scientist board since you'll likely receive better responses here.

I'm too junior to offer much help but here are some quick resources to help you gain some insight.

1. https://acd.od.nih.gov/documents/reports/PSW_Report_ACD_06042014.pdf <- 2014 Physician Scientist Workforce report contains lots of info about who is doing what science, how much of it, and with which degrees.

2. Follow your heart and or the money/opportunities.

3. Just my opinion: Political answer is that both are necessary, complementary components of biomedical research and translational science. Personal opinion is that clinical research is not real science and only interesting from a study design perspective (doesnt mean I dont think the results arent interesting or worthwhile, just that the work itself is boring and simple).

4. Dont know enough to answer this.

5. You can do a research postdoc with an MD. You can do a research year through the NIH or HHMI as an MD student or through your medical school. You can do a PSTP (research intensive residency, shortened clinical track) residency in your field if you have a competitive enough research background as a medical student. Here are some examples for med students: External Scholarships | Duke School of Medicine

Read this FAQ for more info: Physician Scientist Forum Readme & FAQs (updated 3/21/10)

esp the thread where ppl with MDs, MD/PhDs, or Phd-To-MDs talk about their careers and paths.

Much to learn, you have, young padawan. Clinical research is science, not open for debate. It's just not basic science - just like ecology is not basic science, or engineering is not basic science, or political science is not basic science. Still science.

 

[Alakazam123]

Your challenge will be finding significant research experiences in the future that mesh with becoming a clinician and maintaining competence while juggling student debt. Just having PhD behind your name doesn't mean anything and you may have opportunities to get a PhD later such as during residency.

What types of these experiences? the meshing ones?

 

[Neuronix]

What types of these experiences? the meshing ones?

I don't understand your question.

 

[Alakazam123]

I don't understand your question.

Basically, I'm wondering what sorts of experiences "mesh" the two things together that you mentioned (clinical training and maintaining competence while juggling student debt)?

 

[Neuronix]

Basically, I'm wondering what sorts of experiences "mesh" the two things together that you mentioned (clinical training and maintaining competence while juggling student debt)?

Experiences where you can continue on a track towards board certification or continue practicing part time while you do research full time. People say "post-doc" but you can't totally come out of the clinic except during training, and if you do come out during training you need to have a clear way back into your clinical training pathway.

 

[Alakazam123]

Experiences where you can continue on a track towards board certification or continue practicing part time while you do research full time. People say "post-doc" but you can't totally come out of the clinic except during training, and if you do come out during training you need to have a clear way back into your clinical training pathway.

I have a couple questions then:

1. What types of experiences are these?

2. How hard is it to land a post-doc in the NIH (I read on their website that they have lone repayment programs)? I've heard they are not TOO competitive.

3. Are you suggesting that while doing a post-doc, that I should find some way to practice on the side? Or should I just add on my post-doc after the residency?

4. Aren't there many residency programs that have a research track? So you can apply for T32 grants after having been mentored for a 6-month period or something...

5. After doing a post-doc can you go into the pharmaceutical industry as a senior scientist or medical director?

 

[Neuronix]

1. I don't understand what else to say beyond: "experiences where you can continue on a track towards board certification or continue practicing part time while you do research full time."

2. I don't know. I tried for a physician-scientist position there at the faculty level and was unsuccessful.

3. Again, I don't understand what else to say beyond what I wrote. "People say "post-doc" but you can't totally come out of the clinic except during training, and if you do come out during training you need to have a clear way back into your clinical training pathway."

4. Yes there are some. I don't know about the grant funding mechanisms there.

5. That's a possible career choice, sure.

 

[kchan99]

I have a couple questions then:


2. How hard is it to land a post-doc in the NIH (I read on their website that they have lone repayment programs)? I've heard they are not TOO competitive.

3. Are you suggesting that while doing a post-doc, that I should find some way to practice on the side? Or should I just add on my post-doc after the residency?

4. Aren't there many residency programs that have a research track? So you can apply for T32 grants after having been mentored for a 6-month period or something...

2. This is program-dependent with some programs being more competitive than others.

3. Yes, a physician postdoc who has completed residency should "practice on the side." This is often called moonlighting. A recent residency graduate without practical experience will get rusty quickly. This applies to both surgical and nonsurgical surgical specialties. It is easier to moonlight in some specialties than others, depending on local market conditions. For example, it may be easier for a psychiatrist to moonlight than it is for a radiation oncologist, but if there is ever an over-supply of psychiatrists, for example, in one area, than it would be more difficult to find moonlighting. It may also depend on specialty characteristics. It may also depend on whether a certain specialty demands in hospital systems. Using psychiatry and radiation oncology as an examples, 24/7 coverage is necessary in hospitals with psychiatric wards, but radiation treatment is almost never given in the middle of the night!

4. Yes, there are research track residencies with protected time. I wasn't in a research track residency, but I had sufficient protected time for research. Obtaining protected time for research in a program without a T32 is program-dependent. I didn't do bench research, but I published a few research papers from work done in residency. This was more computational work though I was a bench research before med school. A T32 isn't an individual grant. It must obtained by the residency program. I think you could be talking about a R25 if you're talking about applying individually.

 

[eteshoe]

If I can get into those NIH-fellowships or HHMI fellowships, would that be helpful? Also, if I do clinical research during med school will it make it more difficult to find an opportunity to do bench research as a post-doc?

Could be useful but a lot of these fellowships tend to bias towards prior basic/bench research experience and productivity.

Depends on if your future PI understands your training path and is willing to take a chance on you as a postdoc, especially since you'd be rusty. Unfortunately it's really a buyers market as far as postdocs go and PI's can really have their pick of researchers willing to work for pennies to drive their research programs forward.

I have a couple questions then:

1. What types of experiences are these?

2. How hard is it to land a post-doc in the NIH (I read on their website that they have lone repayment programs)? I've heard they are not TOO competitive.

3. Are you suggesting that while doing a post-doc, that I should find some way to practice on the side? Or should I just add on my post-doc after the residency?

4. Aren't there many residency programs that have a research track? So you can apply for T32 grants after having been mentored for a 6-month period or something...

5. After doing a post-doc can you go into the pharmaceutical industry as a senior scientist or medical director?

1. I would imagine programs that have established research years and/or programs for early career development.

2. I would imagine that the competitiveness would be institute/center dependent. If you know people at the NIH, it could be helpful.

3. @kchan99 gave a pretty thorough answer above. Some institutions have some mechanisms in place to help their trainees transition from a heavy clinical load to a split load.

4. There are residencies with research tracks, but the amount of protected time you'd get will be both program and specialty dependent. You could apply for F32's (individual post graduate trainee types of grants) or some sort of foundation/disease specific/etc grant. There are plenty around for postdoc level trainees.

5. Yes. It's more common that advertised albeit not that common overall.

 

[Alakazam123]

2. This is program-dependent with some programs being more competitive than others.

3. Yes, a physician postdoc who has completed residency should "practice on the side." This is often called moonlighting. A recent residency graduate without practical experience will get rusty quickly. This applies to both surgical and nonsurgical surgical specialties. It is easier to moonlight in some specialties than others, depending on local market conditions. For example, it may be easier for a psychiatrist to moonlight than it is for a radiation oncologist, but if there is ever an over-supply of psychiatrists, for example, in one area, than it would be more difficult to find moonlighting. It may also depend on specialty characteristics. It may also depend on whether a certain specialty demands in hospital systems. Using psychiatry and radiation oncology as an examples, 24/7 coverage is necessary in hospitals with psychiatric wards, but radiation treatment is almost never given in the middle of the night!

4. Yes, there are research track residencies with protected time. I wasn't in a research track residency, but I had sufficient protected time for research. Obtaining protected time for research in a program without a T32 is program-dependent. I didn't do bench research, but I published a few research papers from work done in residency. This was more computational work though I was a bench research before med school. A T32 isn't an individual grant. It must obtained by the residency program. I think you could be talking about a R25 if you're talking about applying individually.

What happens if I want to go into Orthopedic Surgery or Plastic Surgery, but did research in Neuroscience on MS or Parkinson's? Would it matter as long as I had stellar grades in class, and excellent step 1 and step 2 scores, along with solid evaluations?

 

[Alakazam123]

Could be useful but a lot of these fellowships tend to bias towards prior basic/bench research experience and productivity.

Depends on if your future PI understands your training path and is willing to take a chance on you as a postdoc, especially since you'd be rusty. Unfortunately it's really a buyers market as far as postdocs go and PI's can really have their pick of researchers willing to work for pennies to drive their research programs forward.



1. I would imagine programs that have established research years and/or programs for early career development.

2. I would imagine that the competitiveness would be institute/center dependent. If you know people at the NIH, it could be helpful.

3. @kchan99 gave a pretty thorough answer above. Some institutions have some mechanisms in place to help their trainees transition from a heavy clinical load to a split load.

4. There are residencies with research tracks, but the amount of protected time you'd get will be both program and specialty dependent. You could apply for F32's (individual post graduate trainee types of grants) or some sort of foundation/disease specific/etc grant. There are plenty around for postdoc level trainees.

5. Yes. It's more common that advertised albeit not that common overall.

Damn you really paint a bleak picture...but it's realistic I suppose, and reality isn't always too great at times. If I fail to get into the MD/PhD program after applying for it on my 1st year of medical school, should I think twice about a career in basic science research?

 

[eteshoe]

Damn you really paint a bleak picture...but it's realistic I suppose, and reality isn't always too great at times. If I fail to get into the MD/PhD program after applying for it on my 1st year of medical school, should I think twice about a career in basic science research?

Haha I didn’t mean to paint a bleak picture - just highlight some of the struggles that I’ve seen amongst friends and colleagues.

Not getting (even getting in and through) an MD/PhD program doesn’t necessarily shut the door on basic science for anyone. Just understand that it would be an uphill battle since the further down the path one goes, the more folks have been selected that tend to have the skills basic science departments are looking for. It comes down to a combo of putting in the reps, hard work, luck, opportunity, and patience.

I’m not that far down the path yet but those are some of the things I’ve noticed. Just strive to do well in Med school and research and keep your head on a swivel for opportunities that can help your career.

 

[Alakazam123]

Haha I didn’t mean to paint a bleak picture - just highlight some of the struggles that I’ve seen amongst friends and colleagues.

Not getting (even getting in and through) an MD/PhD program doesn’t necessarily shut the door on basic science for anyone. Just understand that it would be an uphill battle since the further down the path one goes, the more folks have been selected that tend to have the skills basic science departments are looking for. It comes down to a combo of putting in the reps, hard work, luck, opportunity, and patience.

I’m not that far down the path yet but those are some of the things I’ve noticed. Just strive to do well in Med school and research and keep your head on a swivel for opportunities that can help your career.

Since you are doing research, I just have a couple other questions:

1. Are clinical researchers/translational researchers looked down upon by those in basic science? Is it not as prestigious?

2. If you are working with a PI on a new drug, and you handle the clinical aspect of testing, do you have just as much a right to get the idea patented as the PI does?

3. Do academic positions usually come with some sort of a loan forgiveness package?

 

[kchan99]

3. Do academic positions usually come with some sort of a loan forgiveness package?

No, but there is a NIH loan repayment program from extramural researchers.