Did your undergrad screw you over?

[fruity_trident]

Hello all dental students:
Just wondering if you think your undergrad "prepared" you BETTER for d-school compared with your graduating class.

I'm asking because I personally think I am in a terribly difficult institution ...I'm NOT saying it's BETTER than other's in my area...but rankings would say otherwise . Anyways I am pretty sure that I would've gotten better grades if I went to a "crappier school" and would've had an easier time getting accepted to d-school.

However, I do sorta/kinda think that attending the school I'm @ will better prepare me for d-school (if I get in) compared to going to the "crappier school".

E.g. hands down, if I did my undergrad @ Oxford - I'm SURE I'd be getting crappier grades than I'm getting now, BUT I also think I'd be EVEN better prepared.

I guess I'm just trying to make myself feel better for my non-competitive GPA.
What do you all think?

P.S. Pls try not bashing out other schools...that's not my intention!

EDIT: by "crappier school" I mean it in the nicest way lol. Being not on par with Oxford, Cambridge & top institutions in US, etc. (thanks tacoelf...dr i mean )You know what I'm sayin! And that's why i used the quotation marks.

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[DrTacoElf]

My school wasn't crappy by any means but it wasn't on par with the top institutions in the US either. Research funding was severly lacking as was an employment match program, but thats to be expected from a liberal arts college. For me in order to create a challenge I forced myself to graduate in 3 years. By doing that I feel I was very well prepared for the stresses of dental school even though I didn't attend a super top-notch institution.

 

[fruity_trident]

ooh i'm such a geek...
i'm so excited about my poll...
i really wanna know the results!

i've been yearrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnning to know for a long time!

 

[fruity_trident]

For me in order to create a challenge I forced myself to graduate in 3 years. By doing that I feel I was very well prepared for the stresses of dental school even though I didn't attend a super top-notch institution.

good for u i totally agree with u...afterall, u get what u give!

 

[Neon Black]

On a side note, I'd argue that most Universities don't give a f*ck about their undergrads. Schools gain recogintion, prestige, ranking, funding through what they publish, and lets face it, graduate, PhD students and the profs are the ones that do this. Now don't get me wrong, some undegrads do research indeed, but definetly not to the level or significance as the others I mentioned. Ever hear the old "publish or perish" slogan?

Undergrads seem to be around to help pay the utility bills for the university.

 

[ItsGavinC]

I feel as though BYU prepared me very well.

 

[rocknightmare]

I feel as though BYU prepared me very well.

i feel sorry for BYU pre-denta/pre-health office b/c you guys sure go into the health profession alot heh

 

[45540]

I went to a state school in mississippi and I don't feel I was at a disadvantage at all. I'm well prepared for all the courses I've taken thus far especially compared to other students who went to private or public schools.

 

[fruity_trident]

woah..i'm an idiot...i really should've also added - yes' or no's with respect to "top ranking schools".

i mean i'm SURE there's someone who feels - "ya i didn't go to a top ranked school, but i'm sure as hell doing better than those that did!"

sorry i missed that out!

next time. i don't want to flood the board with another poll thread

 

[adamlc18]

I feel as though BYU prepared me very well.

I will heartily second that motion.

 

[Bullfan16]

People...there are few exceptions to this rule (ie BYU...as I have heard they are a prehealth, but mainly pre-dental factory)...however....it doesnt matter where you went to school, but what you made of it. Great example is this girl at the school I am doing an MS at (small private university)....she has a 3.9 gpa but I think she would barely have a 3.2 at a large state school due to large competition. In terms of preparation, only a large classload each semester can help to prepare you, but from what I have heard no amount of preparation can help you prepare for the rigors of dental school. Fruity, it seems as if you are very intelligent, but I dont think this poll makes a whole lot of sense. From what I gather a particular institution wont get you very far (in terms of gaining an acceptance)......but a very good gpa will (along with DAT). I know people are going to argue with this, but I could care less. If you go to po-dunk university and have a 3.9 gpa and decent DATs, you will get in and most likely will be very prepared.

 

[msf41]

It seems to me that I've seen people from more challenging universities that have lower gpa's doing well on the DAT. Shows that even though their professors might not have thought they were that smart, turns out they really were. Doesn't the DAT level the playing field? Everybody takes it, so doesn't it show how much your really learned?

I found that I was lacking some education in zoology as I was preparing for the DAT. I more or less read 3/4 of a zoology textbook again to learn what I didn't learn earlier. I did poorer in the math section than I was expecting to as well. I got B's (a few A's) in my math classes. So I was expecting to get ~18 on the DAT math section, but I only got a 16. I would have expected to get a 16 if I was pulling C's in my math classes. I'm also really struggling in analytical chemistry this semester, which is very mathematical. So I see that my math education is lacking even though I have never gotten below a B in any math class.

Commenting on how well my school prepared me...I think my school(s) were adequate (I've attended 3 universities). My gpa has been ~3.5-3.6 my whole school career, and my dat was 20/22/20. So I think that shows that middle of the road gpa performance equated to middle of the road DAT scores. I imagine that I'll be middle of the road in dental school as well.


Schools attended: University of Utah, Southern Utah University, Washburn University.

 

[Thaxil]

I found that I was lacking some education in zoology as I was preparing for the DAT. I more or less read 3/4 of a zoology textbook again to learn what I didn't learn earlier.

Being unprepared for dental school would not be your undergrad school's fault. The ultimate responsibility to prepare oneself belongs with the student. If the school was not preparing you, why did you stay, or why did you not take more advance courses. This is what I would always hear from people who failed to learn Spanish after taking the courses. They would say, “I never learn how to speak Spanish because my professor was not good”. Learning any language is difficult. The student fail to learn because the student fail to practice and continually try.


I attending my local CC which was a very cheap, run down and old camp. Many people judge the quality of education by the maintenance of the lawn. I attended for some time and transfer to the big UC system and I did far better then I expected. What prepared me to do well on the DAT was not my school I attended but my own preparation. I became a tutor of many of the subject one the DAT learned the material 2x better then during the course. To prepare for D-school, maybe taking biochem, immunology, human anatomy and many other courses would probability put you ahead of everyone else.

 

[msf41]

Being unprepared for dental school would not be your undergrad school's fault. ....

I'm not trying to say that the school is 100% responsible, of course I am responsible for my own education.

...If the school was not preparing you, why did you stay, or why did you not take more advance courses. ....

My point was...that I got an "A" in zoology and didn't learn the material that was covered on the DAT I think something is wrong with the school (or the teacher at least). How do I know if i know something if I don't know what I'm supposed to know...you know? I think the school has some responsibility to set the level of academic achievement. If I'm getting an A in the class that means I'm learning what I need to. So to me that is a BIG problem with a school if you are getting good grades and it turns out you are not really learning. Grades are valuable for me to assess my own education as well as for others (dent school). That's just my opinion.

 

[dr_benj]

Undergrad definitely makes a huge difference. I am appalled at the simple science concepts that some of my classmates have never been exposed to. I'm not saying I went to the best undergrad in the country, but some of these small schools just don't have the capacity to teach a variety of classes or allow you to do in depth research. The quality of faculty can also be substandard at many of these schools. Some don't even have PhD's.The majority of my class is made up of people that attended small schools and you can definitely tell who did and who went to a larger or more respectable university. Unfortunately the Adcoms only look at GPA. They don't care about where you went or how hard the competition was. Luckily there is the DAT.

 

[lbennett]

my university is ranked #4 in the country right now and my grades are NOT as competitive as some of the people's i've seen posted here. but if you have sufficient dat scores and they know how good your undergrad univ is, you'll be fine. i have not been rejected from any schools yet!

 

[lbennett]

plus, i'm way more prepared to take on the courseload, competition, and difficulty next year ((at least i hope!))

 

[HuyetKiem]

I attending my local CC which was a very cheap, run down and old camp. Many people judge the quality of education by the maintenance of the lawn. I attended for some time and transfer to the big UC system and I did far better then I expected. What prepared me to do well on the DAT was not my school I attended but my own preparation. I became a tutor of many of the subject one the DAT learned the material 2x better then during the course. To prepare for D-school, maybe taking biochem, immunology, human anatomy and many other courses would probability put you ahead of everyone else.

I agree with you. I took most of my pre-den classes at a local community college but scored 20+ on most sections of my DAT (19 on math section and I did have a good background on math) and got good grades so far after the first semester of dental school. Undergrad definitely won't make any difference. Time management, dedication, and old tests would.

 

[Supernumerary]

EVERYBODY thinks their undergrad was tons harder than what everybody else had to go through. Especially if their grades are a little below average.

BTW, your poll needs an option for people whose "crappier" undergrads prepared them better than their classmates from more prestigious schools.

 

[Dr.Bear]

I definitely feel that my undergrad experience at SUNY Stony Brook thoroughly prepared me for dental school. They have a VERY STRONG science program there and from day one you realize what hard work and dedication is all about. Your organic chem 1 class is 550 people... all striving to be MD's, DDS/DMD's, PA's, Nurses, and the like, by Organic Chem 2, the class is done to approximately 200 or so people. Even though it is a "state" school, it has prepared me TREMENDOUSLY for what I am facing. I met some of the brightest people at USB and I realized how stiff the competition is. As well as I did in most science courses, I did not feel that my undergraduate work prepared me for the DAT. I had to do that on my own. (Kaplan, Barrons, months and months of studying for hours on end) I wish that some universities offered a PAT course as part of a pre-dental program (not a requirement but an option) because no matter how much I studied and practiced, and how much I thought "I had it down pat" (haha.. play on words there) it was my lowest section. From what I see on here, no matter what undergrad school you are coming from... we all seem ready for the task ahead. We are all here for a reason, and that reason is to become great Dentists.... and from what I am hearing.. I feel strongly that we ALL WILL!
Chris

 

[edkNARF]

On a side note, I'd argue that most Universities don't give a f*ck about their undergrads. Schools gain recogintion, prestige, ranking, funding through what they publish, and lets face it, graduate, PhD students and the profs are the ones that do this. Now don't get me wrong, some undegrads do research indeed, but definetly not to the level or significance as the others I mentioned. Ever hear the old "publish or perish" slogan?

Undergrads seem to be around to help pay the utility bills for the university.

I think you are being overly harsh towards universities. First, you need to make the distinction between national research univeristies and liberal-arts colleges. If you go to a large national university, you need to realize that an undergrad is just a small piece of a large dymanic instiution. Universities have much to worry about: getting grants, keep grants, attracting faculty, making sure they are pumping our publication after publication, etc. Sometimes this can make undergrads fell like they are just a number, but that is the price you pay for going to large university. Liberal arts colleges usually have smaller classes where you they can devote more attention to their students. If you don't want to be known as a number, go to a small liberal arts college. Even though it does have its faults, US News and World Report does not rank these schools against each other.

 

[DREDAY]

On a side note, I'd argue that most Universities don't give a f*ck about their undergrads. Schools gain recogintion, prestige, ranking, funding through what they publish, and lets face it, graduate, PhD students and the profs are the ones that do this. Now don't get me wrong, some undegrads do research indeed, but definetly not to the level or significance as the others I mentioned. Ever hear the old "publish or perish" slogan?

Undergrads seem to be around to help pay the utility bills for the university.

Are you kidding me bro. You are way off by generalizing institutions in that way. I have taken classes at community college level, cal state schools, and at UCLA and I definitely have to say that my best education came from UCLA. I found that at community college, and some cal state most teachers are there as a last resort carreer because they could not have done anything with their 2.5 gpa. At the UC level, all the proffessors are extremely knowlegeable on the subject they are teaching. Most have been evaluated by students both on a student website and at school which creates an environment to keep them on their toes. Another thing, by providing research environment for undergrad students to become involved in greatly increases their learning capacity and intellect. It creates an association for you to integrate what you learn in lab to what you learn in the classroom thereby more effectively creating declarative memories through stronger association. I would have to say the enriched environment I have been exposed to at an institution that does research, has definitely provided for a more than optimal environment for me to be successfull in my studies.

 

[xxdakinexx]

Are you kidding me bro. You are way off by generalizing institutions in that way. I have taken classes at community college level, cal state schools, and at UCLA and I definitely have to say that my best education came from UCLA. I found that at community college, and some cal state most teachers are there as a last resort carreer because they could not have done anything with their 2.5 gpa. At the UC level, all the proffessors are extremely knowlegeable on the subject they are teaching. Most have been evaluated by students both on a student website and at school which creates an environment to keep them on their toes. Another thing, by providing research environment for undergrad students to become involved in greatly increases their learning capacity and intellect. It creates an association for you to integrate what you learn in lab to what you learn in the classroom thereby more effectively creating declarative memories through stronger association. I would have to say the enriched environment I have been exposed to at an institution that does research, has definitely provided for a more than optimal environment for me to be successfull in my studies.

I definitely agree. I have been to friends classes at Cal state schools and my ex girlfriend went to one. The Bio taught is not on the same level as UC's. Not saying it isn't good, but at UC's you have professors who are very experienced and knowledgeable in their field. The competition is a lot harder also. Cal state schools are great, but you cannot say they are on the same level as UC schools. You can still get a great education there if you put in the effort. I am also taking some classes at a CC right now for fun and there is no way you can compare it to a UC school. I would have to try to not get a B or better in a class. At UCI I would sometimes have to struggle for a B in some classes. IMO ADCOMs should take into account what institution people attend, but I guess that is what the DAT is for. I just can't see how people with 4.0s as a bio major can get 16's on the DAT. Either the classes were really easy or they didn't learn. Either way it should be taken into consideration. Most schools are GPA friendly though. DAT's come second.

In short I feel that UC Irvine prepared me for dental school and the admissions process. I feel that I learned most of what was on the DAT in my classes and the rest was just practice.

 

[fruity_trident]

EVERYBODY thinks their undergrad was tons harder than what everybody else had to go through. Especially if their grades are a little below average.

BTW, your poll needs an option for people whose "crappier" undergrads prepared them better than their classmates from more prestigious schools.

I KNOW! i addressed that several posts before!! but as i said, i didn't want to flood board with incessant poll taking!

oh btw, your name reminds me of cleidocranial displasia....ooh this is good studying for my final on friday!

 

[fruity_trident]

i definately agree that undergrad doesn't really prepare you for DATs...and i certainly didn't prepare myself for it either...TWICE! ...u'd think i would've learnt after the 1st time..but no, i felt like i wanted to waste another $200 bucks to get SIMILAR scores..damn...well ifi have to take it again (which MAY be the case)...i'll definately do a course, and buy LOTS of study materials...instead of blindly reading some ol' bio & chem textbook.

i also agree about how big institutions may have GOOD research, but possibly a smaller emphasis on their undergrad - i think that's kinda how my school is...but the thing is that, if u have a chance to research in your undergrad - then u have GREAT opportunities to learn in a different atmosphere

 

[Dr.Bear]

i definately agree that undergrad doesn't really prepare you for DATs...and i certainly didn't prepare myself for it either...TWICE! ...u'd think i would've learnt after the 1st time..but no, i felt like i wanted to waste another $200 bucks to get SIMILAR scores..damn...well ifi have to take it again (which MAY be the case)...i'll definately do a course, and buy LOTS of study materials...instead of blindly reading some ol' bio & chem textbook.

i also agree about how big institutions may have GOOD research, but possibly a smaller emphasis on their undergrad - i think that's kinda how my school is...but the thing is that, if u have a chance to research in your undergrad - then u have GREAT opportunities to learn in a different atmosphere

Fruity Trident.. I don't think that an 18AA and a 21 PAT(esp the pat) is anything to be too upset about! You will get in somewhere!! Where did you apply?
Dr. Bear

 

[fruity_trident]

Fruity Trident.. I don't think that an 18AA and a 21 PAT(esp the pat) is anything to be too upset about! You will get in somewhere!! Where did you apply?
Dr. Bear

oh i did the canadian DAT, i'm PRETTY SURE they are EASIER. i really think so!

i think if i did the american DATs, i'd be getting <14's

ok here's my list:
Temple & BU (interviews for these 2), Maryland & NOVA (rejections from these 2), Columbia, Penn, Tufts, UPitt, VCU, Creighton, Howard, NYU, Case & 2 in Canada.

 

[UMDeeMan]

People with good DAT scores will argue that it shows their true sense of knowledge / ability to perform under a high pressure situation.

People with good GPA's will argue consistantcy.

IMO, i'd rather have a good DAT. GPA's are all relative. Everyone is tested differently by different teachers at different schools. Physics taught at school A may be extremely easy when compared to Physics taught at school B. Also, getting B's and A's is relatively easy in college once you learn time management and set your priorities right. as in my case, 1st year about a 2.2 gpa, over the last 4 semesters (~90 credits) ~ 3.8 gpa. and during that positive gpa trend, I was/am taking much more difficult classes.

The DAT is the only common grounds for testing all of us wannabe dentists and giving a mode for an applicant to applicant comparison standard. and really, it's not that hard, you know the subjects and there are plenty of modes to prepare. you can even begin studying a year ahead of the exam if you want. So in my view, these people that knock the DAT (by usually saying "they are bad test takers") really have no arguement. you take tests all through undergrad. you obviously studied for those undergrad tests and came out fine if you have a high gpa. so why can't you replicate the performance on the DAT?? when was the last time you determined when you took a test?? when is the last time you had a year to prepare for an exam?? when was the last time you were able to take an exam multiple times?? if you can't develop coping skills to take an exam in a year then there are issues. GPA's are for gunners, but i feel the really bright students are those that rock the DAT. i hope i can rock the DAT if i take it.

 

[reLAXgirl]

i feel sorry for BYU pre-denta/pre-health office b/c you guys sure go into the health profession alot heh

What do you mean? Are you saying it is too competitive? BYU has over 200 students accepted to dental school every year and consequently, know exactly how to prepare their students.

 

[crazy_sherm]

What do you mean? Are you saying it is too competitive? BYU has over 200 students accepted to dental school every year and consequently, know exactly how to prepare their students.

I think he's saying he feels sorry for the BYU pre-health advising office because since so many students from BYU end up going onto dental or med school, they must be very busy advising students.