Difference in difficulty between undergrad and DVM studies

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I was wondering if any of you who are currently in a DVM program would mind giving a prospective vet student a bit of insight into the difficulty of vet school. How much more difficult is vet school than undergrad? Assuming that you attended a school who's undergrad program is relatively rigorous, is there a huge difference in the amount of effort you put into performing well in your courses? Is it the work load or the actual material that makes it difficult?
Thanks in advance for any opinions
 
Imagine one of the most demanding classes you've taken in undergrad.
Now imagine that every class you're taking is as demanding as that class.
Now double the amount of credits you take per semester.
Now you are in vet school.

To answer more of your questions... I went to a good undergrad and did well. I also worked 20 hours a week and volunteered, and was pretty relaxed most of the time. Now I go to vet school and don't work and don't volunteer and am far from relaxed! So yes, it is completely different.
 
definitely volume. one day of vet school feels like 1-2 weeks worth of undergrad. such a gigantic volume makes it exponentially harder to remember the trivial details that always show up on exams.

and it seems pretty typical to have 3-5 high volume classes with a few shorter classes (i.e. 1 credit classes that run 3 weeks or meet once a week)

also, i see a huge difference between classes with one or two heavy sources of material versus ones (like anatomy) where you have 5-8 different sources of info to know (here we have Q and A packets, objectives, drawings, lab, board questions, vocab, sides of the body, i've probably forgotten something). i definitely do better in the more structured classes for sure. i often feel like i just dont even know where to begin when it comes to anatomy
 
That sounds terrible... ha... I was an engineering major in undergrad and felt like I worked fairly hard, but there weren't many details to remember in my engineering courses. I'm a little concerned that if I do get in to vet school I will feel overwhelmed with the material load. Are there people who just cannot do it? I mean, how many people get in and then fail out because they can't handle all of the work? I've heard its a relatively low number, but from what I'm hearing Im surprised its not higher.
 
I think my class failed 4 out of 126 last year although 1 had a new baby and probably would have passed without that major demand on her time. Other people left too but not because of failing.
People do repeat years though and most make it through in the end. So about 3% for a number based on one class at one school 🙂

I had engineering student roommates and I do think it is more challenging than the average major. You will feel overwhelmed, everyone does, but that doesn't mean you won't adjust and do well.
 
I personally found vet school much easier than UG when it came to academic workload and difficulty. I was close to breakdown constantly in UG because of how demanding the courses were. What killed me in UG was that on top of murderous exams, I constantly had a barrage of huge assignments that I could barely hand in on time. And no matter how hard I worked on them, it came back with giant red X's going across the whole page. It didn't help that the criteria for an A for any course in UG was "Conspicuous excellence in every aspect of every assignment" or something ridiculous like that, complete with a grade deflation policy. I have much fewer assignments to hand in for vet school, and the quality of work you're required is kind of a joke most of the time. It almost makes me want to puke at some of the stuff I turn in. One thing that's harder is the amount of rote memorization you need to do in vet school. But overall, academically, vet school has been much easier compared to UG. I think I probably spend about 60-70% of the effort in vet school as I did in UG, and I do much better.

Partly, I think it's easier because I've matured and learned to cope better. Partly I think it's easier because I already "paid my dues" by learning a lot of the important stuff for vet stuff during UG. So rather than learning a ton of new concepts, it's just a matter of tying in and memorizing vet specific terms/parameters. Partly, it's because most of my grades in vet school thus far have been purely based on exams, and test-taking is my strength. Cutting out all the other assignments help me a ton.

On the other hand, what makes vet school very difficult for me is that I feel like just doing the academics isn't enough. Being brainy but clinically deficient makes me super underconfident in my abilities. I constantly wonder if I'll ever actually become a good doctor. I've been committing myself to extra SA and LA clinical experience, so I'm slowly improving everyday. But it's kind of embarrassing when I can interpret test results and stuff but I have no idea how those tests are run... And it's especially embarrassing when I don't know the basics of LA husbandry/animal science. Like... when I'm like the only person who doesn't know what silage is, that's sad... And I didn't even know that a cow was always female, nevermind the difference between filly/colt/foal. I wonder all the time if I was meant to be in a different field. Like, I want so badly to become a vet, but maybe that's not where my talents lie. I guess it just takes talent in so many areas to become a good vet, that it's really easy to be discouraged. You most definitely cannot be great at everything. And the added pressure knowing that the lives of your future patients is in your hand doesn't help either.
 
Minnerbelle,
Do you mind me asking where you went for UG and what your major was?
 
I went to Wellesley and majored in biology... being a little school we didn't really have too many choices. bio, biochem, neuro is all we had for life sciences, where biochem was an interdisciplinary major between bio and chem depts. But I pretty much took almost all bio/neuro course relevant to vet school available except for developmental and 2nd semester biochem. I think that came out to be like 40-60 credits of science courses above the pre-reqs.
 
In my mind, vet school wasn't challenging... it was just a lot of work.

Like Minnerbelle, I found undergrad to be much more mentally stimulating (I spent 1.5 years of undergrad in the honors program of a small, public honors college and 2 years at the University of Florida) and there were definitely undergrad assignments, especially in my first two years, that I worked hard on and that really challenged me to perform well. Undergrad involved writing papers, learning concepts, making connections, etc... all things that were interesting and sometimes challenging.

In vet school, there was no intellectual challenge - just rote memorization. It was somewhat demanding from a time standpoint (although I was more of a slacker than many of my classmates.... occasionally went out partying with friends the night before an exam and still graduated with a 3.5!) but that time was mostly spent going through flashcards or rereading notes. There were very few papers, complicated assignments, difficult concepts to grasp, etc.

Overall, I felt that vet school was substantially easier than undergrad.... yeah, I may have studied more hours/week than I did in undergrad, but in vet school there was never any doubt that I could get a good grade if only I put the time in.
 
Minnerbelle said:
And it's especially embarrassing when I don't know the basics of LA husbandry/animal science. Like... when I'm like the only person who doesn't know what silage is, that's sad... And I didn't even know that a cow was always female, nevermind the difference between filly/colt/foal.
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If it makes you feel better, one of our professors told us about one of his experiences right after he graduated. He walked into the exam room, looked at the chinese crested sitting on the table and asked how long the dog had had the skin condition.

I was rather confused when I saw a large pile of white material in a feed bunker. To a guy from Indiana, piles of white stuff in summer equals salt for the roads. Turns out it was cotton seed. Didn't realize that was a feed. I have found that if you know the difference between hay and straw, you can look pretty smart. When it comes to building confidence with LA clients, I've noticed it's more about the proper use of basic terms than anything else.

So far, I've found vet school to be about the same as others have said. Lots of memorization and less about learning concepts. Not much room for interpretation. The problem is, I get bored re-reading the same notes over and over. I learn better by being quizzed and failing. I always remember the correct answer to the questions I get wrong.
 
I think my undergrad upper division computer science courses were objectively more difficult, but I still passed them with very minimal work because once I understood the concepts I could figure most things out. My undergrad and graduate life sciences courses required more time to learn details but were less conceptually difficult. I think vet school is in that area that's less conceptually difficult than CS but requires more work to get by.

It's hard to judge for me, because I really pulled my head out of my ass fairly recently so I don't know how difficult undergrad would be for me in my current state of mind.
 
I studied chemical engineering. I personally am less stressed now just because it all makes sense once you look at it. Sometimes engineering is not that way, making homework a pain in the butt because you never know if you are doing the problem in the correct way. I don't really feel as though I'm doing more work time-wise outside of class because I'm not spending 9 hours trying and failing to do one single problem, plus I actually like this stuff so I want to spend time on it. That said, I am definitely spending more time in class every day so the time I have outside of class is more structured than undergrad.

The volume of information is completely new to me. However, it's not too bad for me because the concepts are easier to get (not that I totally get them all, I still have to study it to understand lol). The memorization, like anatomy, can be tricky but you just have to make the conscious decision to do it. It was my biggest worry before starting, but my anatomy practical grades have both shown me it's not my weak spot.

Overall, I still goof off with video games, just not as often as before. I still take Saturdays off. Fridays and Sundays are still work days. Hanging out with friends while studying still happens. Sleeping in never happened and still doesn't. I have time for exercise. Vet school just isn't a life-killer for me and I would go crazy if it were.
 
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I just wanted to add that besides the workload being higher in vet school, there are a lot more tests, all the time. There is a period (at least 2nd year at UTK) where you have 1-2 tests every week for 2 months. And that isn't unusual to have series of tests like that. I think that was the biggest problem for me, since I get keyed up for tests and could never fully relax with another looming over my head. In my undergrad, we had a week with midterms and a week with finals - and that was it. And for whatever reason, most classes at UTK had at least 3 tests. The good news was that they scheduled in an hour or two after the test to get it out of your system (or start studying for the next one). It's definitely doable, but it wasn't what I was expecting.
 
dyachei said:
I just wanted to add that besides the workload being higher in vet school, there are a lot more tests, all the time. There is a period (at least 2nd year at UTK) where you have 1-2 tests every week for 2 months. And that isn't unusual to have series of tests like that. I think that was the biggest problem for me, since I get keyed up for tests and could never fully relax with another looming over my head.
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That's the most stressful part about it. Sure we have a lot of material but it's a lot of material for each test.... And we have 23 this semester. And that's only 5 more than we had in first year... So the notion that 2nd year is harder/way more tests, etc isn't entirely true, at least not for here... We've had one 10 day lull in tests and that's it, otherwise they are 3-5 days apart usually.

And yes it makes it that much harder to relax when you're not studying.
 
dyachei said:
I just wanted to add that besides the workload being higher in vet school, there are a lot more tests, all the time.
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For us at AVC, the opposite is true. Classes have two grades: midterm, final. And I find that to be more stressful because we've had no way to gauge our knowledge prior to the first test, worth 50% of the final grade. Ack.

I don't feel as though the actual material is particularly difficult. For me, physiology can be tricky sometimes but it isn't as hard to get my mind around it as say, organic chemistry. Our subjects are more concrete whereas a lot of my undergraduate courses were more abstract, if that makes any sense.

The volume is the real difference, as well as how integrated the material is. In undergrad, you're taking snippets of a bunch of subjects, sciences and humanities all in one semester. In vet school, they're all physical sciences that relate to how the body works and they build and intermingle with each other. Kind of like a big ol' spiderweb of knowledge.

The last thing is that I, personally, find the classes a hundred times more interesting. I know pre-vets get flak for thinking they'll do better and be more motivated because it's what they want to do. For me, this is true! It's a lot easier to slog through classes when what you're learning is interesting and pertinent and important as a foundation for the following years as well as your career. I find the material really interesting thus far. However, that doesn't make it much easier to get through studying for midterms, for example, so it's not all sunshine and rainbows.
 
I feel similarly to scb44f, but anatomy isn't my strong suit. 😉

The hardest week in vet school so far has equaled my hardest week in undergrad. It's not any harder.

Only difference? Those weeks just happen more often.

But it really seems to depend on the person. Many very smart, very industrious people struggle. There's a lot more to it than just how hard your major was. Everyone comes from a unique set of circumstances.
 
Chiming in with the people who say the intellectual challenge isn't really any harder.


There is more material, and more exams, but the two things that screw me over the most is the amount of rote memorization and the testing methods. I have ADD, and memorizing just doesn't cut it for me, and 95% of our exams are multiple choice. I think some of my classmates think I'm crazy, because I LOVE when we have the occasional essay exam or something...I hate multiple choice exams with an eternal burning passion.

So...it depends on how you learn?
 
DVMorBust said:
Chiming in with the people who say the intellectual challenge isn't really any harder.


There is more material, and more exams, but the two things that screw me over the most is the amount of rote memorization and the testing methods. I have ADD, and memorizing just doesn't cut it for me, and 95% of our exams are multiple choice. I think some of my classmates think I'm crazy, because I LOVE when we have the occasional essay exam or something...I hate multiple choice exams with an eternal burning passion.

So...it depends on how you learn?
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really? i feel like the multiple choice tests here favor learning over memorization because you have the ability to make connections instead of just cramming it in and spitting out. Maybe that's just here though. Some stuff is plain memorization, but a lot of our stuff is connecting the dots. i honestly cant imagine being responsible for memorizing this volume of material. ugh
 
I think what DVMorBust actually means is that it's much easier to BS an essay-ish type of exam. 😉

Really though, if you know the underlying concepts but maybe not so much of the details, you can still generate a coherent and intelligent response that shows what you know in an essay format. You cannot do that in a multiple choice exam where someone's more likely to ask you something like "What class of virus do the Reoviridae belong to?" with five choices, at which point you had to memorize that class I = ssDNA, class II = dsDNA, in addition to understanding the general characteristics of the Reoviridae and how they replicate (which IMO is the really important piece of information that needs to be understood). In that case it doesn't matter whether you understand those characteristics or not, only that the one piece of information, the somewhat arbitrarily assigned class number, is going to decrease the chances that you get the question right.

edit: But basically I'm always really annoyed whenever I'm tested on anything that I could plug into google using one word or short phrase and get an answer by looking at the results page without even clicking on a result or reading anything in depth. :laugh:
 
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nyanko said:
I think what DVMorBust actually means is that it's much easier to BS an essay-ish type of exam. 😉

Really though, if you know the underlying concepts but maybe not so much of the details, you can still generate a coherent and intelligent response that shows what you know in an essay format. You cannot do that in a multiple choice exam where someone's more likely to ask you something like "What class of virus do the Reoviridae belong to?" with five choices, at which point you had to memorize that class I = ssDNA, class II = dsDNA, in addition to understanding the general characteristics of the Reoviridae and how they replicate (which IMO is the really important piece of information that needs to be understood). In that case it doesn't matter whether you understand those characteristics or not, only that the one piece of information, the somewhat arbitrarily assigned class number, is going to decrease the chances that you get the question right.

edit: But basically I'm always really annoyed whenever I'm tested on anything that I could plug into google using one word or short phrase and get an answer by looking at the results page without even clicking on a result or reading anything in depth. :laugh:
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Yep! As a general rule, our MC exams are not an accurate reflection of the amount of material you understand. For some people, this benefits them. I am not one of those people.

I have many more issues with MC exams than just this aspect, though - I'm famous in my class for making up my own questions on them. Sometimes so extremely that I'll get in an intense argument with classmates after the fact about the right answers until they finally say 'You would be right, if that was the question that was asked, but it wasn't'. This isn't just misreading in the basic mistake level of 'didn't see the 'NOT' in the question' - I've been known to read completely different disease names, for example, that have a right answer for a question relating to that disease in the choices. It's actually really frustrating and I can't figure out how not to do it - I've gotten to the point where I underline, highlight, rewrite questions and compare my rewrite to what's being asked, write out essay responses before getting to the answers - I've tried pretty much everything and I still manage to do this at least a few times on every exam. They just do. not. work. with my brain. But in an oral exam or an essay exam, if you understand the material but can't, say, remember the specific name for something (the brain block! Another thing that gets me) - you still demonstrate 90% of the knowledge, so it's not just a whole point off. When exams are sometimes 30 questions, every point actually translates to a LOT of impact on your grade.

If you are good at multiple choice questions, this doesn't apply, of course. I just hate the format and am really disappointed at how frequently it's used for testing.

/rant
 
jmo1012 said:
really? i feel like the multiple choice tests here favor learning over memorization because you have the ability to make connections instead of just cramming it in and spitting out. Maybe that's just here though. Some stuff is plain memorization, but a lot of our stuff is connecting the dots. i honestly cant imagine being responsible for memorizing this volume of material. ugh
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Well, the two don't always go hand-in-hand. Not all classes are rote memorization, but a lot have some of that involved. I've just gotten completely fed up with teaching some of my classmates about topics and then winding up testing lower than them on exams. It doesn't matter how much I study - I can barely look at the material the night before and test well enough to get a grade, or I can study the crap out of material, understand it inside and out, and because it's a multiple choice exam I get the exact same grade.
It makes it really hard to motivate myself sometimes.

And it doesn't help that everyone is OBSESSED with grades at my school. A common refrain is 'well, it's not like you did that badly, I just have to worry because I want to do a residency'. Yeah, kudos to you for wanting to do that - I'm not sure where you got the impression I don't want to do one, though.

...wow, I'm ranty today. I actually really enjoy vet school! I just hate the whole obsession with grades-as-measurement-of-mastery.
 
nyanko said:
Really though, if you know the underlying concepts but maybe not so much of the details, you can still generate a coherent and intelligent response that shows what you know in an essay format. You cannot do that in a multiple choice exam where someone's more likely to ask you something like "What class of virus do the Reoviridae belong to?" with five choices, at which point you had to memorize that class I = ssDNA, class II = dsDNA, in addition to understanding the general characteristics of the Reoviridae and how they replicate
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I am with you on that one. (Not so recently), a question on an exam went SOMETHING like: Does ivermectin cross the BBB? Well, of course it does, I mean, that's the whole issue with the MDR-1 gene mutation.

Well, I got the question wrong, because what they MEANT was, does it concentrate into therapeutic levels, and of course, that phrase was right in my notes, bolded and underlined.

But, if you reasoned it out, as I did, you would have gotten the question wrong (and the question did not say "Reach therapeutic levels".

I HATE M/C exams (which 95% of our exams are).
 
I absolutely hate the professors who consistently leave 2 very probable choices in their multiple choice exams. Where you can rule out 3 of the 5 because you understand the general concept... and then you just can't figure out between the 2 very similar choices because it comes down to 1 word. I also don't like the questions that ask "What is the MOST likely cause of X (e.g. abortion) in Y animal" or "Of the following, which has the MOST zoonotic potential" and lists 5 answers that all cause abortion or are all zoonotic. It would be fine if the correct answers were highlighted as such during lecture or in your notes... but when they're not, it really pisses me off. 😡😡😡 I hate not getting any credit at all even though I know the exact pathogenesis of each condition in the answer choices, along with route of entry, prognosis, etc... Esp if those are the ONLY types of questions asked about the organisms/diseases in question.
 
DVMorBust said:
I've just gotten completely fed up with teaching some of my classmates about topics and then winding up testing lower than them on exams. It doesn't matter how much I study - I can barely look at the material the night before and test well enough to get a grade, or I can study the crap out of material, understand it inside and out, and because it's a multiple choice exam I get the exact same grade.
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I'm with you here. Unfortunately.

Case in point: one multiple choice exam we had this year was graded by hand instead of scantron. I always write out my reasoning for choosing what I am choosing if I am debating on answers on a MC test. Out of 31 questions, there were four that I got full credit on despite not circling some correct answers (was a MC exam with multiple answers for each question), because the person grading it read my reasoning and thought it was sound. That's 13% of the total questions on the exam that if it were graded by scantron, I just would have missed because of awkward wording that caused me to rule things out because I understood it differently or whatever.

That's not even counting all the times I forget to fill in answers on the scantron because I was debating between stuff and didn't fill it in the first time. Welllppp
 
nyanko said:
Case in point: one multiple choice exam we had this year was graded by hand instead of scantron. I always write out my reasoning for choosing what I am choosing if I am debating on answers on a MC test. Out of 31 questions, there were four that I got full credit on despite not circling some correct answers (was a MC exam with multiple answers for each question), because the person grading it read my reasoning and thought it was sound. That's 13% of the total questions on the exam that if it were graded by scantron, I just would have missed because of awkward wording that caused me to rule things out because I understood it differently or whatever.
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That was extremely nice of the prof to do it that way. If only they'd all do that...
 
I'll be the odd one out to say that I prefer multiple choice exams specifically because i'm a masochist who likes things to be a little more challenging. I can write out calculations and regurgitate the specific bacteria for a particular disease, but I like being able to rule out 4 similar answers because I know about a disease well enough to see where there are faults in the logic. A good multiple choice exam isn't about memorization, but about understanding key concepts and you should only be able to pick out a right answer if you understand a process. Obviously, most multiple choice exams AREN'T written perfectly, but having a solid ability to understand a question (reading comprehension) isn't entirely worthless; we are supposed to be able to interpret details. I often hear complaints about the wording of test questions not being "direct" enough. If the whole test was "direct" and basically about regurgitation, then everyone would do well and there'd be less of a challenge, I think.

Then again, I tutored the SAT/ACT and other subject tests for a big-name company for 6 years, so I'm obviously biased ;-D
 
^^^You're also one of the most grades-oriented people I've seen on this site. I have a feeling we would not be friends IRL. 😉

One of my favorite professors from first year said the following to our class: "I don't give multiple choice exams because your patients are not going to come in with five answer choices on their backs."

I liked that one. 😉

edit: In case it wasn't clear, I hate memorize and regurg often to the point of flat out refusing to do it, and feel like it is in my experience more prevalent on multiple choice exams. Except for anatomy practicals, and well my hatred for that particular aspect of vet school is well documented on this site.
 
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I hate memorizing, too.

From a purely "getting by" standpoint, I prefer multiple choice questions. You can half-know something, and logic/reason/background-info your way through it. I snoozed through large portions of our cell bio class but could get through it based on knowing the teaching style/having previous exposure to the material.

Free response? Well, you either know the answer or you don't. I suppose you can kind of bull**** at this level, but not really. It's a way more effective evaluation of WHAT YOU KNOW, since there are fewer clues to what the right answer is.

Sometimes I worry that my good grades are a result of my good test taking skills. I've reasoned my way through MANY questions I wouldn't have gotten any credit for had someone walked up and asked me. That's kind of terrifying, when you recognize that one day you aren't evaluated by a machine, computer, or senile professor... but instead by the health of your patients.

Like Nyanko said, cats don't have A/B/C/D waiting to be bubbled in on their backs. I'm not sure how comfortable I am with my success if it's partially due to my ability to thrive in our academic system rather than complete domination of the information and concepts necessary to be a good veterinarian.

*shrug* But I understand not wanting to grade 120 free response exams five times a semester.
 
breenie said:
I'm not sure how comfortable I am with my success if it's partially due to my ability to thrive in our academic system rather than complete domination of the information and concepts necessary to be a good veterinarian.
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Ah, when you see a patient in practice, you will also have resources available to you that you don't have on an exam. There's something to be said for being able to reason your way through the material, too. I wouldn't worry too much about this.
 
I think it was my situation, but I found undergrad harder than vet school. Good small liberal arts college on trimesters, lots of papers, tests always a few weeks away. I majored in History, so a lot of reading, a lot of thinking, a lot of interpretation. (I know people think the Humanities are a cakewalk compared to the sciences, but it's not necessarily so.)

Vet school - British-style curriculum, high-stakes tests only a couple of times a semester, no real writing assignments - no analysis, just regurgitation. Lots of volume - that bit sucked.

But I was not gunning for A's in vet school, necessarily - I kind of did that in undergrad, was over it by the time I got to vet school. So YMMV.
 
nyanko said:
Ah, when you see a patient in practice, you will also have resources available to you that you don't have on an exam. There's something to be said for being able to reason your way through the material, too. I wouldn't worry too much about this.
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👍

I'm not sure which allows one to slide past more: multiple choice or SA. Multiple choice is either you know the answer or you don't. SA has wiggle room because if you can't 100% remember some tiny detail, you can leave it out. If that tiny detail is what make or breaks a MC or T/F question, you don't get any points.

I guess my biggest problem with MC is that it's easier to over- or under-analyze the questions since so much hinges on the tiny details of the answers. Poor word choice like "X is due in large part to Y" (give me always or never any day!) is usually what gets to me.
 
nyanko said:
^^^You're also one of the most grades-oriented people I've seen on this site. I have a feeling we would not be friends IRL. 😉
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Ha, maybe so, but some of us have money riding on how well we do and can't afford to slip very much.
(+ I made a few comments that no one seemed to understand about how I would really regret the cost of vet school if I was failing and everyone jumped down my throat about it, so there's that.)
 
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RadRadTerp said:
Ha, maybe so, but some of us have money riding on how well we do and can't afford to slip very much.
(+ I made a few comments that no one seemed to understand about how I would really regret the cost of vet school if I was failing and everyone jumped down my throat about it, so there's that.)
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Actually you said you would regret the cost if you had below a 3.0, not if you were failing. 😉
 
nyanko said:
Actually you said you would regret the cost if you had below a 3.0, not if you were failing. 😉
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True, but while academic failure may have a specific cut-off, I could still be "failing" to achieve to the best of my abilities.
 
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