Differences between Aussie schools.

[Off2Oz]

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Hey all, I'd like to know more about differences people have come across when comparing programmes at Australian schools.

I'm interested in things like class size, availability of equipment (ie. people per cadaver, people per lab station type stuff..), surroundings, housing, etc..

Again, I don't really want rankings. I'd just like some observations regarding the various schools/cities.

Cheers.

 

[Off2Oz]

I attended both Flinders and U of Sydney:

Flinders
smaller, more intimate (class size = 100)
can do 6 months of electives overseas in final year
content of program is good, but poorly managed
low cost of living
Adelaide is kind of boring
curriculum is less touchy feely than Sydney
(but Californians will still feel at home)
weak training in EBM

Sydney
larger
limited opportunity for overseas electives
generally well managed
lots of emphasis on social issues, ethics, etc.
Good training in EBM
Great city!
Opportunities for research
Large network of hospitals -- you may be sentenced to spend year 3 and 4 at a suburb
You will be sent to rural locations in third and fourth year

I think both are reasonably good programs. Overall, I think U of Sydney is better resourced than Flinders. The program content at Flinders is good but I felt the program was poorly managed. In general, I think the faculty at U of Sydney are more closely managed and actively engaged in the program. Also, the program has a large staff of managers that tend to make things run smoothly. Unlike Flinders, Sydney makes some primitive attempts at quality control. The endless surveys are a bit annoying; however, the results are tangible. Similarly, the exams at Sydney are much more standardized and controlled. Flinders is more loosely managed.

Overall, you can do well at either place. Each one has its own peculiar annoyances.

Good to know - thanks for the input. How does UQ compare with the 6 months of overseas electives Flinders offers? What length of time does Sydney allow for overseas electives?

 

[GluteusMaximus]

You can only do 1 elective rotation overseas at U of Sydney (9 weeks). It is not the end of the world, but it is a disadvantage of U of Sydney's program -- at least for those who plan on returning to North America.

Also, Sydney's curriculum is designed so that you have to complete a PreInternship term as your last term. Further, this term can only be completed in two time slots. Thus, this further limits the opportunities to go overseas.

If you are considering staying in Australia (at least as a possible option),
you should try to obtain PR before you start your program. You are subject to the 10 yr moratorium if you obtain PR once you begin your program.

i'm a usyd student as well and i dont know where you got your information but at usyd you can do 12 weeks of electives, 1 rotation (9 weeks) and preinternship (8 weeks) overseas.

 

[Off2Oz]

That is true, but there are lots of conditions that make it impractical. Are you aware of many people doing preinternship overseas?

I agree that it is theoretically possible to spend more time overseas but I am not sure who this translates to practical reality. Even if these are available, the situation at U of Sydney is somewhat less favorable than at the the other schools. Once again, it is not the end of the world, but I think the other Australian schools may have an advantage in this respect for North Americans who plan on doing residencies in the US.

Anyone have a definitive number of elective weeks for UQ? Judging from their curriculum on the web, it seems like 6 weeks.

Seems a little low.. I'll keep digging.

 

[pitman]

Officially, it is low, but in practice, it's not, and starting next year officially it'll be even higher, at least for int'l students.

UQ, in part as a result of our med soc campaigning 😉, is finalizing affiliations with n american schools to do med specialty and surg rotations overseas. This in addition to being able to do electives and the pre-internship training overseas, the latter state requirement for domestics going by the wayside in the next year or so, resulting in at least another week for elective. All in all, it'll come to about 20-24 weeks allowed overseas for years 3-4, with about 12-16 weeks of these allowed to be contiguous I believe (making the logistics a little easier).

Up to now, overseas rotations have been done on an ad hoc basis and ends up being up to ~16 weeks. A current 4th year (aka The Pill Counter) just finished surg at Mt Sinai and is now doing another rotation somewhere else in the US in place of the elective and pre-internship training. Another student is doing 8 weeks med specialties, I think in PA.

The main bonus for the formal affiliations is that they will help organize the process for future students.

-pitman

 

[canucker]

Officially, it is low, but in practice, it's not, and starting next year officially it'll be even higher, at least for int'l students.

UQ, in part as a result of our med soc campaigning 😉, is finalizing affiliations with n american schools to do med specialty and surg rotations overseas. This in addition to being able to do electives and the pre-internship training overseas, the latter state requirement for domestics going by the wayside in the next year or so, resulting in at least another week for elective. All in all, it'll come to about 20-24 weeks allowed overseas for years 3-4, with about 12-16 weeks of these allowed to be contiguous I believe (making the logistics a little easier).

Up to now, overseas rotations have been done on an ad hoc basis and ends up being up to ~16 weeks. A current 4th year (aka The Pill Counter) just finished surg at Mt Sinai and is now doing another rotation somewhere else in the US in place of the elective and pre-internship training. Another student is doing 8 weeks med specialties, I think in PA.

The main bonus for the formal affiliations is that they will help organize the process for future students.

-pitman

Hey pitman,

I may have asked you this before, but I just wanted to clarify: the surg and med specialty rotations which can be done overseas are core rotations, correct? So, according to the UQ website, they would be done in year 3 and year 4, respectively, of the MBBS program? Also, are there any more plans in the works to allow other core rotations to be done overseas (specifically NA)? Finally, what NA schools are these formal affiliations with? Any Canadian schools?

Thanks.

 

[Off2Oz]

Officially, it is low, but in practice, it's not, and starting next year officially it'll be even higher, at least for int'l students.

UQ, in part as a result of our med soc campaigning 😉, is finalizing affiliations with n american schools to do med specialty and surg rotations overseas. This in addition to being able to do electives and the pre-internship training overseas, the latter state requirement for domestics going by the wayside in the next year or so, resulting in at least another week for elective. All in all, it'll come to about 20-24 weeks allowed overseas for years 3-4, with about 12-16 weeks of these allowed to be contiguous I believe (making the logistics a little easier).

Up to now, overseas rotations have been done on an ad hoc basis and ends up being up to ~16 weeks. A current 4th year (aka The Pill Counter) just finished surg at Mt Sinai and is now doing another rotation somewhere else in the US in place of the elective and pre-internship training. Another student is doing 8 weeks med specialties, I think in PA.

The main bonus for the formal affiliations is that they will help organize the process for future students.

-pitman

That's all definitely good news. By the way, when one is doing these rotations overseas, how are the costs handled? Are they just added to your usual costs of attending school in Aus, or are they somehow included in the tuition fees for the semester that you'll be away for?

And I'd be interested to hear the reply to Canucker's question as well about specific schools and rotations? And does this mean that some of the more competitive specializations will be more attainable by internationals? Seems to me that there are quite a few stories of people returning to competitive residencies in the US... I've got this ridiculous belief that I can snag myself a dermatology residence somewhere. Meh. I guess you've gotta aim high. =)

Finally, I may have asked this before already, but what are the difficulties facing canadians wanting to go to the US for residency training versus their american counterparts who are also doing their degrees in Australia?

Yeesh, sometimes I wonder if I should have just applied to the caribbean - although I can't bend my mind around the fact that their admissions stats are so low, and therefore there *must* be some disadvantage to the people in their programs. 😕

Can you tell that I'm making some fairly important decisions within the next few weeks? =)

 

[pitman]

I may have asked you this before, but I just wanted to clarify: the surg and med specialty rotations which can be done overseas are core rotations, correct? So, according to the UQ website, they would be done in year 3 and year 4, respectively, of the MBBS program? Also, are there any more plans in the works to allow other core rotations to be done overseas (specifically NA)? Finally, what NA schools are these formal affiliations with? Any Canadian schools?

Yes, they're core, done years 3 and 4.

There aren't specific plans by the school to allow more, but the trend is that it'll happen in a few years 🙂

Now I am really sorry to do this to you, but I'm on the med soc executive and I've promised not to give out the school names until the deals are finalized, which I'd expect to happen by the beginning of next year. But they're excellent schools -- if I'm lying, UQ student members all know who I am and can point me out to your bat-wielding thugs 😉

But at any rate, no Canadian schools yet, but US east and west coast. The tentative plan is to add more schools after another year, particularly Canadian. UQ belongs to something called the Universitas 21 consortium of research schools, of which McGill and UBC are also members (and UVA in the US), and I know the Head of School likes to push agreements with Universitas 21's. UBC may not ever be possible -- they really restrict rotations from non-UBC -- but hopefully McGill will reciprocate. The med soc will likely push for UT, too. Of course this is just my suspicion 🙄

-pitman

 

[pitman]

That's all definitely good news. By the way, when one is doing these rotations overseas, how are the costs handled? Are they just added to your usual costs of attending school in Aus, or are they somehow included in the tuition fees for the semester that you'll be away for?

If organized on your own, you pay the host school its tuition fee yourself, though your UQ insurance will still cover you. If at an affiliate, they will waive their normal tuition fees. But note that you'll have to pay for flights and accommodation nevertheless, so certainly not cheap.

And does this mean that some of the more competitive specializations will be more attainable by internationals?

Maybe, though n americans have been able to go back for rotations, just they've in the past had to organize them on their own, so I'm not sure what you want a comparison to(?). I doubt that, say, doing an affiliate rotation at Harvard or Yale would increase your odds much, if any, of doing a derm res at Harvard or Yale, but certainly since the schools are tops, their LORs could in theory be more recognized or looked at by programs a bit more favorably. But such is yet to be seen.

Seems to me that there are quite a few stories of people returning to competitive residencies in the US... I've got this ridiculous belief that I can snag myself a dermatology residence somewhere. Meh. I guess you've gotta aim high. =)

Derm would be extremely difficult, but if you study your ass off and nail the USMLE, then there's no inherent reason why not. I'm not that masochistic though 😉

Finally, I may have asked this before already, but what are the difficulties facing canadians wanting to go to the US for residency training versus their american counterparts who are also doing their degrees in Australia?

Chiefly visa issues. The canucks tell me it's not terribly difficult probability-wise, but it's a pain time- and bureaucracy-wise.

-pitman