differences between caribean med schools and USA/Canada Med schools

[doc-Oc]

anyone know the differences between the two? i understand its the quality that differs but what exactly does that mean?

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[masaraksh]

I take it that research experience is not what got you into med school.

 

[PL198]

Carribean = hunger games of med school, looked at unfavorably on residency apps compared to USA med school, focus on standardized exams more, 1/3 graduate I believe.
USA= normal med school

 

[doc-Oc]

but why are the caribbean med schools looked down upon?

 

[Law2Doc]

but why are the caribbean med schools looked down upon?

Because there is no oversight by the accepted accreditation body (LCME) mostly. Also most don't have firm hospital affiliations, so they contract with various community hospitals throughout the US that often provide very watered down versions of third year rotations.

 

[Law2Doc]

anyone know the differences between the two? i understand its the quality that differs but what exactly does that mean?

This topic has been addressed ad nausea on this board, so you really ought to do a search. Otherwise we need to presume you are a Troll. And honestly, if you don't get to a couple hundred posts before someone cells you a troll, you are a very bad one at it.

 

[PL198]

Can't anyone get into the carribean so long as they can pay? I'm pretty sure a lot of them you just have to have taken the MCAT before, like literally taken it, without a score requirement.

The whole Caribbean system is a money machine. Yes some people graduate(a lot of internationals), but mostly it feeds off people with dreams of being a doctor that can't get into an allo or osteo school in the states. The bottom line is that I guess it's another opportunity to be a doctor, but a very risky one.

 

[el_duderino]

This is the kind of question that makes me wonder "why are you asking?"

It's not like anyone sits down and thinks "hm, should I go to Drexel or Ross?"

People end up at Ross, SGU, etc., because they can't get into a US program. That's pretty much the only reason. Tons of students, severely limited rotations, expensive, inferior education, inferior faculty, inferior support system, inferior matching.

 

[jakeislove]

but why are the caribbean med schools looked down upon?

It makes people feel better.

 

[PL198]

Why wouldn't they be looked down upon?

 

[DermViser]

Can't anyone get into the carribean so long as they can pay? I'm pretty sure a lot of them you just have to have taken the MCAT before, like literally taken it, without a score requirement.

The whole Caribbean system is a money machine. Yes some people graduate(a lot of internationals), but mostly it feeds off people with dreams of being a doctor that can't get into an allo or osteo school in the states. The bottom line is that I guess it's another opportunity to be a doctor, but a very risky one.

The ones that I knew that have gone to Carribean schools are students whose parents have a lot of money - usually physicians themselves. Ironically enough, even with all that affluence, it boggles my mind they couldn't do well at the university level or do good enough on the MCAT.

 

[doc-Oc]

The ones that I knew that have gone to Carribean schools are students whose parents have a lot of money - usually physicians themselves. Ironically enough, even with all that affluence, it boggles my mind they couldn't do well at the university level or do good enough on the MCAT.

you think just because they have the resources to cover it then they automatically qualify to do well? money can buy resources to help you but it cant buy smartness or astuteness.

 

[DermViser]

you think just because they have the resources to cover it then they automatically qualify to do well? money can buy resources to help you but it cant buy smartness or astuteness.

My point (which I thought was obvious) is that they do not have the financial worries that your usual premed has. Money is no object for them. And no it's not necessarily "smartness" or "astuteness" it's called hard work at the undergraduate level.

 

[DermViser]

It makes people feel better.

You know that's not true. You know that MS-3 rotations can be quite shady with Carribean schools.

 

[PL198]

The ones that I knew that have gone to Carribean schools are students whose parents have a lot of money - usually physicians themselves. Ironically enough, even with all that affluence, it boggles my mind they couldn't do well at the university level or do good enough on the MCAT.

I found that a certain percentage of students in which both parents are physicians, feel either entitled or they almost resent docs (even while trying to be one) due to being around the lifestyle with both parents. Both of these scenarios usually end with the student doing poorly. Doesn't seem to happen nearly as frequently with students in which one parent is a physician.

 

[DermViser]

I found that a certain percentage of students in which both parents are physicians, feel either entitled or they almost resent docs (even while trying to be one) due to being around the lifestyle with both parents. Both of these scenarios usually end with the student doing poorly. Doesn't seem to happen nearly as frequently with students in which one parent is a physician.

It can be parental pressure or the need to keep up the affluent lifestyle that they've become accustomed to. The Caribbean is the way to do that bc all you need is a credit card. Funny that PA school never comes to their mind, which is a perfectly respectable profession. They definitely felt entitled to be physicians bc they had the cash on hand for it.

 

[sinombre]

It can be parental pressure or the need to keep up the affluent lifestyle that they've become accustomed to. The Caribbean is the way to do that bc all you need is a credit card. Funny that PA school never comes to their mind, which is a perfectly respectable profession. They definitely felt entitled to be physicians bc they had the cash on hand for it.

Interestingly, many of these people may very well become PA's (or "APs") in Missouri.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

It's not like anyone sits down and thinks "hm, should I go to Drexel or Ross?"

Not quite, but I heard that people sit down and think "hm, should I go to DO or Ross". I think that is a very unwise decision if you ask me...

 

[jakeislove]

You know that's not true. You know that MS-3 rotations can be quite shady with Carribean schools.

I couldn't make a blanket statement. Most of my rotations have been really solid and good learning experiences. Some also had a mix of US and DO students. I've been told what's expected (and the experience) varies by location but can only speak from direct personal experience.

I also believe there are times where people have to put in some effort to improve their experience.

 

[Siggy]

Carribean = hunger games of med school, looked at unfavorably on residency apps compared to USA med school, focus on standardized exams more, 1/3 graduate I believe.
USA= normal med school

ERAS = Hunger Games
FMG = Being from District 11.

 

[PL198]

ERAS = Hunger Games
FMG = Being from District 11.

Cato checking in. Just kidding, I'm District 12, they've already claimed my soul, but I'm totally coming back for theirs.

 

[Law2Doc]

I couldn't make a blanket statement. Most of my rotations have been really solid and good learning experiences. Some also had a mix of US and DO students. I've been told what's expected (and the experience) varies by location but can only speak from direct personal experience.

I also believe there are times where people have to put in some effort to improve their experience.

It's the variation that screws you though -- it doesn't have to be a blanket statement. If PDs know that some (perhaps most) of these rotations are substandard, and there's no accrediting body they trust putting a seal of approval on any, then they have to assume all are substandard. And fwiw, you may not have a great frame of reference as to whether your own rotations are on par given that you never did the US counterpart. those of us who went through US rotations in med school and later were residents rotating at community hospitals which hosted Caribbean rotations have seen both and have the best vantage point, and at least some of these offshore school rotations are not even close to on par. More like a "rotation - lite."

as I've said in many threads accreditation is an issue of branding. a non-name brand TV you never heard of may seem to have most of the bells and whistles, but how can you really know, and so at the end of the day you end up buying the Sony.

 

[DermViser]

I couldn't make a blanket statement. Most of my rotations have been really solid and good learning experiences. Some also had a mix of US and DO students. I've been told what's expected (and the experience) varies by location but can only speak from direct personal experience.

I also believe there are times where people have to put in some effort to improve their experience.

Unless you're an intern, you have no idea how good your MS-3 clerkships have been to preparing you or how big of a learning experience it's been. Internship and subsequent residency is the real test.

 

[jakeislove]

Unless you're an intern, you have no idea how good your MS-3 clerkships have been to preparing you or how big of a learning experience it's been. Internship and subsequent residency is the real test.

Doesn't that hold true for everyone?

 

[AsclepiusMD]

The difference is very simple: American medical schools are in the greatest country on the face of this planet, while Canadian and Caribbean medical schools are not. #IBelieve

 

[ShinyDome19]

I have been a student under some very good Caribbean trained residents/physicians and have the same amount of respect for their education as someone who graduated from a US school. Of-course you will meet dumb-as-sh** grads from both the US and Caribbean as well... But I dont think there is a quality difference in the education, I think this stigma comes from the fact that you see the advertisements, - "NO MCAT required", "Start any time of the year" etc...Plus I know people from undergrad that struggled for years to get into a US school and turned around and apply to one of these Caribbean schools and got in right away. I think it just really comes down to the US schools hold pre-med students to a higher standard in getting in...once your in you have to work pretty hard to fail out. In the Caribbean I would say its the exact opposite. There are likely differences in clinical education, but as I said above, I have met some very well trained Caribbean residents.

Plus, while I had to study in the middle of the city, they could study on the beach...thats just bull sh**.

 

[IonClaws]

My point (which I thought was obvious) is that they do not have the financial worries that your usual premed has. Money is no object for them. And no it's not necessarily "smartness" or "astuteness" it's called hard work at the undergraduate level.

Might actually backfire, like the students are lazy because they grew up privileged and haven't had to work hard for anything.

 

[DermViser]

Might actually backfire, like the students are lazy because they grew up privileged and haven't had to work hard for anything.

And then go to the Caribbean.

 

[IonClaws]

And then go to the Caribbean.

Da.

 

[Winged Scapula]

It's likely you're working with the cream of the crop Caribbean students. Remember they have an extremely high attrition rate and many students are held back from moving on to clinical rotations. They may not represent the whole student body.

I have been a student under some very good Caribbean trained residents/physicians and have the same amount of respect for their education as someone who graduated from a US school. Of-course you will meet dumb-as-sh** grads from both the US and Caribbean as well... But I dont think there is a quality difference in the education, I think this stigma comes from the fact that you see the advertisements, - "NO MCAT required", "Start any time of the year" etc...Plus I know people from undergrad that struggled for years to get into a US school and turned around and apply to one of these Caribbean schools and got in right away. I think it just really comes down to the US schools hold pre-med students to a higher standard in getting in...once your in you have to work pretty hard to fail out. In the Caribbean I would say its the exact opposite. There are likely differences in clinical education, but as I said above, I have met some very well trained Caribbean residents.

Plus, while I had to study in the middle of the city, they could study on the beach...thats just bull sh**.

 

[Bancrofti]

I have been a student under some very good Caribbean trained residents/physicians and have the same amount of respect for their education as someone who graduated from a US school. Of-course you will meet dumb-as-sh** grads from both the US and Caribbean as well... But I dont think there is a quality difference in the education, I think this stigma comes from the fact that you see the advertisements, - "NO MCAT required", "Start any time of the year" etc...Plus I know people from undergrad that struggled for years to get into a US school and turned around and apply to one of these Caribbean schools and got in right away. I think it just really comes down to the US schools hold pre-med students to a higher standard in getting in...once your in you have to work pretty hard to fail out. In the Caribbean I would say its the exact opposite. There are likely differences in clinical education, but as I said above, I have met some very well trained Caribbean residents.

That's pretty much the sentiment I got from any US physician I've spoken to as well. US schools are the standard... I'm not sure why people think the attempt at education would be much different if you have people that are trying to emulate what is being done in order to push out a bunch of students that are of a similar caliber. Granted, if the average GPA of those kids is anywhere from .3-1.0 lower than the average Allopathic matriculant, then it's obvious that of those that make it through, the worst will probably be much worse than an allopathic grad.

Agreed with the cause of stigma as well. I think the biggest issue is that Carib students are seen as allopathic rejects. I don't get it, because going to DO schools doesn't carry the same negative connotation anymore, deservedly. However, by far the large amount of students going to DO schools are people that realized they weren't competitive enough for allo, or applied DO as their safety. Obviously it sucks for some places to have horrible match rates or Step I pass rates, but you can't generalize and immediately say that all of the schools are subpar and likely won't produce good physicians. I personally know of 2 people that failed out of the Carib school I was at, applied DO, and are doing quite well. Additionally, I know of a girl that started in the January class, got her acceptance to a US allo during the term so dropped out so that she could start there in the fall. There is definitely a variety in the quality of schools and the students accepted, but it's a little unfair to generalize them all as being at the bottom from the schools that don't even necessitate an MCAT score.

 

[el_duderino]

I think the difference is that while most DO students are indeed allo rejects, there are enough high-caliber students that are allo rejects that the quality really isn't that different. It IS different when you get to the Caribbean, and the high attrition rates and enormous class sizes just add to it.

 

[masaraksh]

But unfair generalizations based on little research is a lot more fun than actual statistics

 

[masaraksh]

I think the difference is that while most DO students are indeed allo rejects, there are enough high-caliber students that are allo rejects that the quality really isn't that different. It IS different when you get to the Caribbean, and the high attrition rates and enormous class sizes just add to it.

How big are the class sizes?

 

[el_duderino]

How big are the class sizes?

Ross University, for example, puts out something like 1000 students a year. Maybe more.

edit: Rather, they accept that many. Like 500 students per class, with several classes per year. Something like 50% actually make it.

 

[AsclepiusMD]

It's likely you're working with the cream of the crop Caribbean students. Remember they have an extremely high attrition rate and many students are held back from moving on to clinical rotations. They may not represent the whole student body.

100% agree with this.

 

[DermViser]

But unfair generalizations based on little research is a lot more fun than actual statistics

Get used to it. Not everything can have a double blind clinical trial as the standard - medical education is the epitome of going by prior experience.

 

[masaraksh]

I know one guy from college who seems to have gone Carribean (seems really rare to do this from Canada). He went to St. Kitts. I hope it turns out well for him. His parents were pushing him to be a doctor, though.

 

[Psai]

Get used to it. Not everything can have a double blind clinical trial as the standard - medical education is the epitome of going by prior experience.

Yeah I don't get the obsession people have with "research". "Hey there's no data for your argument therefore it is invalid" or "here's a shoddy non-blinded study, run by some people with mickey mouse degrees, paid for by the people who have a vested interest in the stated outcome published in a no-impact journal that also has a vested interest in the reported conclusion".

 

[DermViser]

I know one guy from college who seems to have gone Carribean (seems really rare to do this from Canada). He went to St. Kitts. I hope it turns out well for him. His parents were pushing him to be a doctor, though.

That's bc Canada's med schools are ridiculously hard to get into.

 

[Mad Jack]

The ones that I knew that have gone to Carribean schools are students whose parents have a lot of money - usually physicians themselves. Ironically enough, even with all that affluence, it boggles my mind they couldn't do well at the university level or do good enough on the MCAT.

Many of the parents of rich kids that don't do well in school despite having all the resources they could want available to them figured college was an all-inclusive four year vacation where they could party hard and have fun rather than put their nose to the grindstone. Once they finish up, they panic when they realize that they can't just buy their way into a US MD school, and they don't care to work their assess off for another year (too lazy and entitled to work their butts off at a SMP) or they're too prestige obsessed to carry the initials DO (thank god, we don't want them anyway) so they pay the application fees for one of the Big 4 and go to the Carib.

Basically their belief that they should be getting trophies for participation and that they are a special uniquely entitled snowflake that can do whatever they want if they want it bad enough is what destroys them. They think a six-figure salary and a spot in whatever career they want is their right, not something they must earn, and they act accordingly.

(And this isn't to say that many, or even most, children with wealthy parents are like this. Many use the resources available to them appropriately and are taught proper work ethics and the like by their parents, giving them a significant edge over those lacking in parental resources.)

 

[Mehd School]

It's likely you're working with the cream of the crop Caribbean students. Remember they have an extremely high attrition rate and many students are held back from moving on to clinical rotations. They may not represent the whole student body.

I don't know why everyone seems to forget this. You'll never meet the bottom of the Caribbean class because they give them the boot early and often.

 

[DermViser]

Yeah I don't get the obsession people have with "research". "Hey there's no data for your argument therefore it is invalid" or "here's a shoddy non-blinded study, run by some people with mickey mouse degrees, paid for by the people who have a vested financial interest in the stated outcome published in a no-impact journal that also has a vested interest in the reported conclusion".

It's always done by people on the short end of the stick and have everything to gain and nothing to lose. So much of medical education, heck even medical treatment, is done with things in which you do not have the gold standard of trials - double blind, randomized control trial.

Don't get me wrong, there are some people who are really top notch Caribbean grads, who would have excelled in US Medical schools even though they went to a Caribbean school, and happened to fall on the wrong end of the line. Medical school admissions is after all, complicated by the fact that there is some social engineering involved with a holistic review of apps: i.e. affirmative action. But to say that this is the majority of Caribbean grads is false.

 

[DermViser]

Basically their belief that they should be getting trophies for participation and that they are a special uniquely entitled snowflake that can do whatever they want if they want it bad enough is what destroys them. They think a six-figure salary and a spot in whatever career they want is their right, not something they must earn, and they act accordingly.

And for some reason, the ones I've encountered, carry a huge chip on their shoulder, when it comes to proving themselves, but maybe it's due to the Caribbean weed out process. It's kind of weird bc you can't even ask them what school they went to without walking on eggshells.

 

[Mad Jack]

And for some reason, the ones I've encountered, carry a huge chip on their shoulder, when it comes to proving themselves, but maybe it's due to the Caribbean weed out process. It's kind of weird bc you can't even ask them what school they went to without walking on eggshells.

Some of them remind me of those guys that are so insecure they think they're being made fun of when a girl is flirting with them- their own insecurity makes them handle situations awkwardly, which further breeds insecurity. They then end up blaming every failure they have on the Caribbean and other people's perception of it rather than themselves.

 

[DermViser]

Some of them remind me of those guys that are so insecure they think they're being made fun of when a girl is flirting with them- their own insecurity makes them handle situations awkwardly, which further breeds insecurity. They then end up blaming every failure they have on the Caribbean and other people's perception of it rather than themselves.

I had an MS-3 on our team during my prelim year, who asked the other intern where she graduated from sometime during the rotation, just to make conversation and just find out more where we all wre coming from, and the person got all bent out of shape, bc he thought the MS-3 was somehow questioning his medical aptitude and judgement. The student didn't even freakin' know that he graduated from a Caribbean school!!

Never happens with IMGs from other countries. They say where they went to med school and move on without the insecurity shtick.

 

[Mad Jack]

I had an MS-3 on our team during my prelim year, who asked the other intern where she graduated from sometime during the rotation, just to make conversation and just find out more where we all wre coming from, and the person got all bent out of shape, bc he thought the MS-3 was somehow questioning his medical aptitude and judgement. The student didn't even freakin' know that he graduated from a Caribbean school!!

Never happens with IMGs from other countries. They say where they went to med school and move on without the insecurity shtick.

Some of the physicians I respect most are IMGs, and I've yet to see one get all huffy if someone asks them where they graduated from. Carib grads (and many DOs for that matter) need to just chill the hell out and be proud of the fact that they're physicians, regardless of where they came from.

 

[DermViser]

Some of the physicians I respect most are IMGs, and I've yet to see one get all huffy if someone asks them where they graduated from. Carib grads (and many DOs for that matter) need to just chill the hell out and be proud of the fact that they're physicians, regardless of where they came from.

Exactly! IMGs from other countries don't care. If you're in the same program it doesn't matter.

 

[PikminOC]

Correct.

It's always done by people on the short end of the stick and have everything to gain and nothing to lose. So much of medical education, heck even medical treatment, is done with things in which you do not have the gold standard of trials - double blind, randomized control trial.

Don't get me wrong, there are some people who are really top notch Caribbean grads, who would have excelled in US Medical schools even though they went to a Caribbean school, and happened to fall on the wrong end of the line. Medical school admissions is after all, complicated by the fact that there is some social engineering involved with a holistic review of apps: i.e. affirmative action. But to say that this is the majority of Caribbean grads is false.

Correct. Midlevel encroachment is based on these same types if self serving studies. Back it up with tons of lobbying money as they have so many members and wa la! Sb2187

 

[PikminOC]

How is safety at these Caribbean schools? And I have come across students who can't pass the pre step 1 test they take at the school so they keep studying and burning more semesters. You have to be wealthy to go to these schools.