Differences between DO and MD education

[premed747]

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Hi everyone!

I am considering a career in medicine as a non-traditional student. It seems that the education of a DO and an MD are very similar but I believe that there have to be more differences between these two programs than the grades and the MCAT scores. I do not want to know anything about grades or prestige of the titel. I am sure that both programs are very good. I would like to get more information on the education and job perspectives.
I am also very interested in oriental medicine. Would one of them (DO or MD) be more compatible with oriental medicine? I know that future residency wishes are changing during your time of study but right now I am very interested in familiy medicine, pediatrics or internal medicine. Is it possible to say that a DO or MD program would be better for that?

Thanks a lot!!

 

[DrMom]

Unfortunately, the search function is down.

There is virtually no difference in education between the degrees. DOs just add classes in OMT (Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy). Some will tell you that there is a philosophical difference, too, but there's no real agreement on that.

DO does not equal alternative medicine, though.

I'm sure more people will pipe in, but I hope that gives you a start. 🙂

 

[premed747]

Thanks a lot. This is exactly that kind of information that I am looking for - philosophical differences and information on Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy or anything else that comes into your minds.

When you say "DO's just add classes in OMT" does it mean that they learn "more" than MD's (sorry, I do not want to cause any competition with this question) or that they learn OMT instead of something that MD's learn?

 

[Megalofyia]

They learn OMT in addition to what MDs learn.

 

[DrMom]

Thanks a lot. This is exactly that kind of information that I am looking for - philosophical differences and information on Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy or anything else that comes into your minds.

When you say "DO's just add classes in OMT" does it mean that they learn "more" than MD's (sorry, I do not want to cause any competition with this question) or that they learn OMT instead of something that MD's learn?

It is in addition. At my school that meant 1 hr of lecture & 3 hrs of lab weekly. Not a huge addition, IMO. That said, if you want to get proficient at OMT it takes practice.

 

[Megalofyia]

It is in addition. At my school that meant 1 hr of lecture & 3 hrs of lab weekly. Not a huge addition, IMO. That said, if you want to get proficient at OMT it takes practice.

I take it that means you went to the 1 hr lecture?

It would be alot more motivational for me if they had lecture at noon and with free food.

And it isn't that I'm discriminating towards OMT.. this feeling applies to all that is lecture based. I have managed to go 2 1/2 monts without attending a single lecture. I love power point presentations on the web. 😉

 

[premed747]

Thanks.
Now I need more information on the "philosophical differences" between the DO and MD programs and also: What exactly is Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy?

 

[DrMom]

Thanks.
Now I need more information on the "philosophical differences" between the DO and MD programs and also: What exactly is Osteopathic Manipulative Therapy?

I recommend that you browse the forum for more info. There are tons of threads that address this.

Since the search function is currently down, I recommend that you start with the FAQ sticky thread in this forum (actually, that is a good place to start even when the search function is working 😉)

 

[crys20]

OMM is a way of treating the body using your hands by manipulating the muscular and skeletal systems. It has been compared to chiropractic...but no, it isn't the same. The philosophy is "mind body spirit"; treat the entire person, when they come in w/ chest pains instead of prescribing a heart medication ask them about the stressors in their life that may be contributing...their wife, job, whatever. Do MDs do this too? Sure, some do, but it's pounded and preached more heavily in DO schools.

DO is a very attractive route. I'm still struggling over going to a DO school over a much cheaper state MD school. DO is best for people wanting to go into prim care, I think, because it CAN be hard to land the best residencies in competitive specialties as a DO because as much progress as there has been some people (some MDs) still maintain a bias..Since it's 'easier' to get into DO school, alot of MDs assume that the people who went that route are "second rate physicians" or found a "backdoor to medicine". That is the only drawback to DO schools...Otherwise they're great, much better in teaching, curriculum and quality of people than many allo schools I think.

 

[EctopicFetus]

From an MD..

Here is my opinion, the quality of education is similar, DOs learn OMT although many will tell you they do not use it in practice. IMO the biggest difference is this. It is harder (right or wrong I dont want to argue) for DOs to get into more competetive fields. While DOs have the opportunity to match in DO residency programs and MD residency programs, the reverse is not true for MDs. As such many MD residency programs "discriminate" vs DOs. Also, if you want to apply to many of the MD programs you need to take not only the COMLEX but also the USMLE. In the end if you want to go into FP, medicine, Peds and a handful of other less competetive fields there really is little difference between MD and DO. But if you want Derm, ENT, Rads, Ophtho, Ortho, it is still possible to go through DO but MOST MD programs wont even look at you which limits you to DO programs in these fields which are far fewer.

Otherwise they're great, much better in teaching, curriculum and quality of people than many allo schools I think.

Is this based on your experience? Much better teaching? Please? Curriculum.. its med school dont we all learn the same stuff? As far as quality of people this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard? What is this based on? You must be right all MDs are mean and all DOs are just super nice and kind. Generalizations like that are foolish. Good luck..

 

[smc927]

You may want to call your favorite MD school and your favorite DO school and ask for an overview of the courses taken the first year. Then compare the two. You'll most likely find they are the same except OMT (osteopathic manipulative treatment).

An OMT example - Your ribs move very dynamically to facilitate breathing. People with very bad coughs often get a rib "stuck" in the exhaled position. You can use the person's own movements, muscles, etc, and help get it moving right again, thereby assisting their breathing. These are the kinds of things OMT teaches you. And then if that person also has pneumonia, you still learn how to listen to the lung, read the x-ray, and prescribe the right medicine. In the end, you just have an extra tool in your belt if you choose to use it. Some DOs choose not to.

For what it is worth, an MD I know has DO students rotate through his family practice. He says when somebody comes in with shoulder pain he can prescribe a drug. His DO students can help "manipulate" that joint - bend, move and stretch it in such away as to improve the alignment and functioning and relieve the pain. They have a tool he doesn't have. Then again, many DOs still choose never to use it. And your average DO dermatologist probably doesn't have a lot of opportunity to either.

 

[1Path]

Otherwise they're great, much better in teaching, curriculum and quality of people than many allo schools I think.

I think I know EXACTLY what was meant by "quality people". The DO students/physicians that I've met are FAR more laid back and less "competitive" than MD students/MD's.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I think I know EXACTLY what was meant by "quality people". The DO students/physicians that I've met are FAR more laid back and less "competitive" than MD students/MD's.

I think this depends on who you meet. I am going into EM and let me tell you there are some incredibly happy laid back people in that field. If you are referring to those going into ENT, Combined Plastics, Derm your assessment is more on target. That being said and since I am studying for step 2, I think this is a confounding issue as people who go to DO schools are much more likely to go into FP, IM, and Peds and if you took both subsets I doubt you would see much of a difference. 🙂

The 2 biggest reasons to go MD are 1) it leaves more options open for you and as we see on this here site 2) you dont have to spend your whole career with ignorant people questioning your degree and making your life harder than it is. I personally have no problem with DOs as a group. I have worked with some real smart ones and some pretty dumb ones but thats not any different than the MDs I have worked with.

 

[priu]

I feel that I would rather fight this bias rather than just accept it and let it remain. I'm not trying to nitpick your post 🙂

2) you dont have to spend your whole career with ignorant people questioning your degree and making your life harder than it is.

 

[Pharos]

The few downfalls aside, there is probably no better time to join the DO profession than now. Of course, there is still some stigma and you might find a slightly harder time getting into a few specialities, but all-in-all those who have walked before us in the DO profession have really done a good job gettin society to recognize the profession for what it is.

The new pre-meds are coming in at a time when osteopathic medicine is on an upswing and gaining momentum. As more and more DOs reach the workforce, there will be less and less confusion and questions about them in the public's eye. (I find quite a bit of humor in the fact that these forums often become overwhelmed with folks having it out over such slight differences - trying to make more out of the situtation than there is). You will find die-hards on either side (i.e. those that will only be comfortable attending an allopathic institution and those purposefully seeking a DO degree based on it's principles/philosophy, even if it is only a perceived difference as some think - who knows...). The question has also been asked may times, if the professions are so similar do we need them both? I say, why not - isn't it nice to have options? I think having the two different forms of education helps to keep things in check.

I myself will be applying to both MD and DO schools based on geographic location and (hopefully) based on my acceptance(s) will choose the school based on other factors such as cost, location, and feel for the school. Whatever path you may choose, I say good luck - it is an very hard uphill battle either way and well deserved in the end.

 

[beastmaster]

When you say "DO's just add classes in OMT" does it mean that they learn "more" than MD's (sorry, I do not want to cause any competition with this question) or that they learn OMT instead of something that MD's learn?

There are several opinions about this. Some say that OMT is in addition to the curriculum, others argue that adding a whole new class into a medical curriculum would by definition imply that in some way, however slight, there is less time (whether through class hours, study time, or depth of study) being spent on the other material. Then again no curriculum in the country covers every assigned textbook cover to cover. And it is debated what fraction of basic sciences are truly relevant to clinical practice (ie, yes is it a nice intellectual milestone to calculate how many ATP molecules are generated but this is not clinically relevant).

 

[OnMyWayThere]

There are several opinions about this. Some say that OMT is in addition to the curriculum, others argue that adding a whole new class into a medical curriculum would by definition imply that in some way, however slight, there is less time (whether through class hours, study time, or depth of study) being spent on the other material. Then again no curriculum in the country covers every assigned textbook cover to cover. And it is debated what fraction of basic sciences are truly relevant to clinical practice (ie, yes is it a nice intellectual milestone to calculate how many ATP molecules are generated but this is not clinically relevant).

We learn a lot of unnecessary minutia in our science courses while taking OMM. We haven't been robbed in any way of material we need to know as a result of those 3-4 hours of OMM. 🙄

 

[RisingSun]

My understanding is that the main difference between MD and DO schools isn't the basic science years, its the 3rd and 4th years of clinical rotations. Lets face it, MD schools in general have a much more structured program for their students than DO schools. Most (all?) MD schools are affiliated with teaching hospitals where students do their core rotations with faculty who are paid to teach (and do research, etc.) and take standard shelf exams whereas it seems that most DO schools have students do many of their rotations at primary care type settings with _volunteer_ physicians (where does tuition go 3rd and 4th year?). I suppose people might prefer this, but personally I would rather be in very structured situation where I didn't feel pressured to set up my own rotations/move constantly.

I'm definately applying DO next cycle, but I'm also going to make sure that I only apply to places that seem to have a fairly structured 3rd year (DMU, KCOM, PCOM), or at least the security of knowing that I can be in the same place all four years. I can't imagine transplanting my family after second year, then after third, then again for residency. I know that DO students can do all the same rotations as MD students, at the same facilities, but I think the support system for this is in general better for MD students.

Any thoughts?

 

[smc927]

KCOM has the advantage of having its own hospital. And they have great programs for 3rd and 4th year - well structured with lots of options.

 

[crys20]

I don't know if DMU's clinical years are super structured; on my interview day all the students commented on the hassle of traveling away for rotations.

OUCOM is the only DO school I've seen w/ a highly structured clinical years program...It really is a huge perk of that school.

 

[DrMom]

OSU-COM has its own hospital, too.

 

[EctopicFetus]

The few downfalls aside, there is probably no better time to join the DO profession than now. Of course, there is still some stigma and you might find a slightly harder time getting into a few specialities, but all-in-all those who have walked before us in the DO profession have really done a good job gettin society to recognize the profession for what it is.

You might want to ask some current 4th yr DOs about this. I would say that the stigma is more than slight and on top of that I would say that it is considerably more than "slightly harder" to get into "a few specialties". I would say DOs are virtually SHUT OUT of Derm, Ophtho, Rad Onc, Rads, ENT, Urology, NeuroSurg, Ortho and a few others. So if you call them a "few" then you are right. I know that DOs have their own residencies but they dont have a ton of spots in these fields. In addition from what I heard this bias continues into fellowships as well. Keep in mind if you want to do MD residencies many require/prefer you take USMLE Steps and Comlex, and even then it seems to me they are discrimintated against. I.e. 2 applicants totally the same at 50% in their class and same USMLE (lets say a little above avg) at 220, the MD gets a ton more interviews. I am not flaming just stating how things are. Let me state that I am cool with DOs, I am just stating how I have seen them get treated as well as seeing and hearing from them the difficulties they face. Take it for what it is worth.

Also to the poster who wants to take on the stereotypes, the DOs still have a long way to go in certain fields. Sadly taking on these forces has to do with changing the minds of Program Directors and I am not sure how you plan on accomplishing that.

 

[nerdgrrl]

You might want to ask some current 4th yr DOs about this. I would say that the stigma is more than slight and on top of that I would say that it is considerably more than "slightly harder" to get into "a few specialties". I would say DOs are virtually SHUT OUT of Derm, Ophtho, Rad Onc, Rads, ENT, Urology, NeuroSurg, Ortho and a few others. So if you call them a "few" then you are right. I know that DOs have their own residencies but they dont have a ton of spots in these fields. In addition from what I heard this bias continues into fellowships as well. Keep in mind if you want to do MD residencies many require/prefer you take USMLE Steps and Comlex, and even then it seems to me they are discrimintated against. I.e. 2 applicants totally the same at 50% in their class and same USMLE (lets say a little above avg) at 220, the MD gets a ton more interviews. I am not flaming just stating how things are. Let me state that I am cool with DOs, I am just stating how I have seen them get treated as well as seeing and hearing from them the difficulties they face. Take it for what it is worth.

Also to the poster who wants to take on the stereotypes, the DOs still have a long way to go in certain fields. Sadly taking on these forces has to do with changing the minds of Program Directors and I am not sure how you plan on accomplishing that.

wtf is up with your handle?

anyway, to the OP, talk to a DO student about this, not an MD student. A DO student will have first hand experience with the stigma, finding residencies, etc, and can tell you how bad it really is, if at all.

 

[Beau Geste]

wtf is up with your handle?

anyway, to the OP, talk to a DO student about this, not an MD student. A DO student will have first hand experience with the stigma, finding residencies, etc, and can tell you how bad it really is, if at all.

Better yet, talk to a DO.

 

[EctopicFetus]

wtf is up with your handle?

anyway, to the OP, talk to a DO student about this, not an MD student. A DO student will have first hand experience with the stigma, finding residencies, etc, and can tell you how bad it really is, if at all.

Whats wrong with my handle? on another note.. ask the 4th yrs cause they are dealing with it right now. A DO in private practice has NO clue what the current crop is going through. No one better to ask than someone who is currently experiencing this rather than someone who might have done it 10 years ago.

And nerdgrrl WTF is with your handle? 😕

 

[SquidDoc]

You might want to ask some current 4th yr DOs about this. I would say that the stigma is more than slight and on top of that I would say that it is considerably more than "slightly harder" to get into "a few specialties". I would say DOs are virtually SHUT OUT of Derm, Ophtho, Rad Onc, Rads, ENT, Urology, NeuroSurg, Ortho and a few others. So if you call them a "few" then you are right.

Here are the stats for the class of 2005 match from WesternU/COMP:

http://www.westernu.edu/OPTI-West/pdf/matchlist2005.pdf

Among them you will notice that 12 students in the DO 2005 class matched Ortho (notice Stanford on that list). Since most of these spots were in Allopathic residencies, I would say that "shut-out" does not really apply. Sure, we only had 1 allopathic radiology position and only 1 ENT, but those were still not total shut outs. Many of those that went into rotating interships will go on to residencies outside of primary care as well, so that subset skews the list a bit.

It will of course be harder to get into a some places, but I do not feel that entire specialties are shut out to DOs. This will become even less of an issue as time goes on.

 

[nerdgrrl]

Better yet, talk to a DO.

yeah, that's what I should have said. although, talking to students about their experiences finding a residency this year would be valid too.

 

[nerdgrrl]

Whats wrong with my handle?

is it supposed to be funny? I'm not of the opinion that ectopic pregnancies are particularly amusing. maybe I've just seen one too many patients missing an ovary or fallopian tube because of them that I've lost my sense of humor about it. *shrug*

as for mine, what's to be confused about. I'm a nerd, and I'm a girl. or, at least, I was last time I checked.

 

[Bull's eye]

My understanding is that the main difference between MD and DO schools isn't the basic science years, its the 3rd and 4th years of clinical rotations. Lets face it, MD schools in general have a much more structured program for their students than DO schools. Most (all?) MD schools are affiliated with teaching hospitals where students do their core rotations with faculty who are paid to teach (and do research, etc.) and take standard shelf exams whereas it seems that most DO schools have students do many of their rotations at primary care type settings with _volunteer_ physicians (where does tuition go 3rd and 4th year?). I suppose people might prefer this, but personally I would rather be in very structured situation where I didn't feel pressured to set up my own rotations/move constantly.

I'm definately applying DO next cycle, but I'm also going to make sure that I only apply to places that seem to have a fairly structured 3rd year (DMU, KCOM, PCOM), or at least the security of knowing that I can be in the same place all four years. I can't imagine transplanting my family after second year, then after third, then again for residency. I know that DO students can do all the same rotations as MD students, at the same facilities, but I think the support system for this is in general better for MD students.

Any thoughts?

Sometimes the structured clinicals aren't the best way to learn. I was fortunate enough to see both sides in my 3rd and 4th year. As a third year, I went to a small (300 bed) community hospital (Level 2 trauma center) and they had no residents, and 5 interns. I was one on one with the attending (and picked his brain readily)and still had a few (although not great) didactics. However, I learned how to manage patients better than most (you 3rd and 4th years know what I mean when you write orders, hmmm... Weaight bearing status, I'll just let the resident figure it out)and I learned how to close as a third year (instead of cutting suture for the resident). When I went on my out rotations (auditioning for MD and DO spots), I was a star compared to the others. I knew the plan (the only thing anybody cares about), and how to present patients to attendings without being sheltered by the residents. Not only that, but I got great evals because I was one on one. Having said that, I was motivated to study on my own, but lacked compared to other students on lectures and didactics.
By the time we get to PGY-II, we are all about the same (MD or DO) in the same specialties. I think there are a lot more similarities than differences in DO/MD training. But I've never trained at an MD school. THis is from what the MD residents say.

 

[Beau Geste]

Whats wrong with my handle? on another note.. ask the 4th yrs cause they are dealing with it right now. A DO in private practice has NO clue what the current crop is going through. No one better to ask than someone who is currently experiencing this rather than someone who might have done it 10 years ago.

And nerdgrrl WTF is with your handle? 😕

Better yet, talk to a DO resident. They are *still* DOs and have recently gone through the *whole* process of finding a residency.

Actually, ask whoever you want. This is silly to argue about.

 

[Bull's eye]

You might want to ask some current 4th yr DOs about this. I would say that the stigma is more than slight and on top of that I would say that it is considerably more than "slightly harder" to get into "a few specialties". I would say DOs are virtually SHUT OUT of Derm, Ophtho, Rad Onc, Rads, ENT, Urology, NeuroSurg, Ortho and a few others. So if you call them a "few" then you are right. I know that DOs have their own residencies but they dont have a ton of spots in these fields. In addition from what I heard this bias continues into fellowships as well. Keep in mind if you want to do MD residencies many require/prefer you take USMLE Steps and Comlex, and even then it seems to me they are discrimintated against. I.e. 2 applicants totally the same at 50% in their class and same USMLE (lets say a little above avg) at 220, the MD gets a ton more interviews. I am not flaming just stating how things are. Let me state that I am cool with DOs, I am just stating how I have seen them get treated as well as seeing and hearing from them the difficulties they face. Take it for what it is worth.

Also to the poster who wants to take on the stereotypes, the DOs still have a long way to go in certain fields. Sadly taking on these forces has to do with changing the minds of Program Directors and I am not sure how you plan on accomplishing that.

I received interviews at 14 (out of 17)allopathic spots for Neurosurgery, and 11 (out of 15) Allo spots for ortho (and 1 out of 1 spot for rads). I never ran into problems going to these interviews. If my PD hadn't hinted that he really wanted me to go ortho at his program, I would have ended up at Mizzou Neurosurgery. They called after the match and wanted to know why I withdrew my rank order list 3 days before the match, and told me that they had me ranked as number 3. Well when the results came out they didn't fill. My stats are not near as good as some of the DO students are posting now. Classs rank: 31/215 COMLEX 664/98 USMLE 246/99. So, I find it hard to believe that some people(especially with the monster stats that I see on this site) are getting shut out, but I bet regions of the country play a large role our own experiences as we see them and account for the discrepancies.

 

[Bull's eye]

Whats wrong with my handle? QUOTE]

Oh, and I like your handle. Pay no attention to others.

 

[Pharos]

You might want to ask some current 4th yr DOs about this. I would say that the stigma is more than slight and on top of that I would say that it is considerably more than "slightly harder" to get into "a few specialties". I would say DOs are virtually SHUT OUT of Derm, Ophtho, Rad Onc, Rads, ENT, Urology, NeuroSurg, Ortho and a few others. So if you call them a "few" then you are right. I know that DOs have their own residencies but they dont have a ton of spots in these fields. In addition from what I heard this bias continues into fellowships as well. Keep in mind if you want to do MD residencies many require/prefer you take USMLE Steps and Comlex, and even then it seems to me they are discrimintated against. I.e. 2 applicants totally the same at 50% in their class and same USMLE (lets say a little above avg) at 220, the MD gets a ton more interviews. I am not flaming just stating how things are. Let me state that I am cool with DOs, I am just stating how I have seen them get treated as well as seeing and hearing from them the difficulties they face. Take it for what it is worth.

Also to the poster who wants to take on the stereotypes, the DOs still have a long way to go in certain fields. Sadly taking on these forces has to do with changing the minds of Program Directors and I am not sure how you plan on accomplishing that.

I get the impression (unless I am reading your inflection wrong) that you seem to want to argue about this to prove a point. If that's the way you want it.... whatever. I don't think the problems are quite as big in most cases as you would want one to believe. But then again, I am only a pre-med and could be wrong. However, you know what? To become a physician I am willing to deal with it, and even more if necessary. I guess I'm failing to see the point. Nothing in life is exactly equal.... if it is a harder road taking the DO approach and 1) I'm only accepted to DO programs, or 2) happen to choose a DO program over an MD program based on location, cost, etc - then so be it. If you want something bad enough, you will find a way to make it work. And besides, a little challenge in life once in awhile makes you appreciate what you have even more. I say good luck regardless of which path you choose and enjoy the ride for what it's worth.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Whats wrong with my handle? QUOTE]

Oh, and I like your handle. Pay no attention to others.

Ectopic Pregnancy is certainly no laughing matter nerdgrrl. I was an ectopic fetus and I survived hence the name. From what I gather you are a pre-med student so I dont know who all of these pregnant women are? I obviously set off quite a little storm on here.
You guys can not deny these FACTS..

1) It is tougher to get into competetive fields, I did say "virtually shut out" and not "shut out" like someone tried to say...

2) I noticed that in my field of EM none went to Allo programs although EM is hardly as competetive as other fields. So I didnt see anyone in Rad Onc or Derm and the person who went into ENT I couldnt even find an ENT program in Woodland Hills. The only thing that comes up is a FP residency. Looks like a ton of people going into primary care. I also noticed a lot of military people.

Well glad I got you guys thinking... nerdgrrl get a sense of freaking humor..

 

[EctopicFetus]

I get the impression (unless I am reading your inflection wrong) that you seem to want to argue about this to prove a point. If that's the way you want it.... whatever. I don't think the problems are quite as big in most cases as you would want one to believe. But then again, I am only a pre-med and could be wrong. However, you know what? To become a physician I am willing to deal with it, and even more if necessary. I guess I'm failing to see the point. Nothing in life is exactly equal.... if it is a harder road taking the DO approach and 1) I'm only accepted to DO programs, or 2) happen to choose a DO program over an MD program based on location, cost, etc - then so be it. If you want something bad enough, you will find a way to make it work. And besides, a little challenge in life once in awhile makes you appreciate what you have even more. I say good luck regardless of which path you choose and enjoy the ride for what it's worth.

I dont think what I am doing is arguing at all. I was simply stating that the DO road is tougher to get into competitive fields. THIS IS A FACT. The other point was people will treat you crappier. Also true. I am not one of those people but somehow the people on this board took these statements the wrong way. Im a 4th yr, you guys should feel free to do whatever you want and if you dont want to listen to anyone except those who tell you life is great go on.. Life is waiting and you might not like to hear what its gonna tell you. Good luck applying.. 😎

Also I looked up the old match thread on here is is on the 2nd or 3rd page in this thread and the other match lists arent nearly as impressive as far as people going into competetive fields. To be fair those people might not have been interested in those fields, one of my friends was AOA (MD Honor Society for the Pre-meds) and got 260+ and thought about Rad Onc for the $ and life but went with what he thought would make him happy which was medicine...

 

[SquidDoc]

1) It is tougher to get into competetive fields, I did say "virtually shut out" and not "shut out" like someone tried to say...

2) I noticed that in my field of EM none went to Allo programs although EM is hardly as competetive as other fields. So I didnt see anyone in Rad Onc or Derm and the person who went into ENT I couldnt even find an ENT program in Woodland Hills. The only thing that comes up is a FP residency. Looks like a ton of people going into primary care. I also noticed a lot of military people.

..

Virtually or however else you want to say it is irrelavent. You were over generalizing, which is why I decided to provide you with the match list for COMP. If nearly 10% of the class went in to Ortho, I would not consder that "virtually" anything.
Is it going to be slightly more difficult to get in to a competitive program than my MD counterpart? Well, the answer to that will come down to the individual. All board scores being equal, a DO applicant and an MD applicant to the same Rad Onc program will likely result in the MD getting the spot. This does not necessarily mean that the DO is less competitive or less qualified for the position, rather it means that some old docs with old stereotypes and old social stigmas decided that selecting a candidate that shares the same letters behind their name would be more appropriate.

I would like to see the bias against and ignorance about osteopathic medicine go away as soon as possible. I would much rather be judged by my competency as a physician than by my title, but that is something MDs will never have to worry about.

 

[Pharos]

I dont think what I am doing is arguing at all. I was simply stating that the DO road is tougher to get into competitive fields. THIS IS A FACT. The other point was people will treat you crappier. Also true. I am not one of those people but somehow the people on this board took these statements the wrong way. Im a 4th yr, you guys should feel free to do whatever you want and if you dont want to listen to anyone except those who tell you life is great go on.. Life is waiting and you might not like to hear what its gonna tell you. Good luck applying.. 😎

Also I looked up the old match thread on here is is on the 2nd or 3rd page in this thread and the other match lists arent nearly as impressive as far as people going into competetive fields. To be fair those people might not have been interested in those fields, one of my friends was AOA (MD Honor Society for the Pre-meds) and got 260+ and thought about Rad Onc for the $ and life but went with what he thought would make him happy which was medicine...

OK - noted.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Virtually or however else you want to say it is irrelavent. You were over generalizing, which is why I decided to provide you with the match list for COMP. If nearly 10% of the class went in to Ortho, I would not consder that "virtually" anything.
Is it going to be slightly more difficult to get in to a competitive program than my MD counterpart? Well, the answer to that will come down to the individual. All board scores being equal, a DO applicant and an MD applicant to the same Rad Onc program will likely result in the MD getting the spot. This does not necessarily mean that the DO is less competitive or less qualified for the position, rather it means that some old docs with old stereotypes and old social stigmas decided that selecting a candidate that shares the same letters behind their name would be more appropriate.

I would like to see the bias against and ignorance about osteopathic medicine go away as soon as possible. I would much rather be judged by my competency as a physician than by my title, but that is something MDs will never have to worry about.

Squid my question is this.. was that a truly representative list or just representative of one school? I dont know much about individual DO programs.. So my question is.. is that representative of DOs or a 1 yr anomaly or 1 particular excellent school? As far as

It will of course be harder to get into a some places, but I do not feel that entire specialties are shut out to DOs. This will become even less of an issue as time goes on.

I would be impressed with someone in Derm or esp in Rad Onc as these are arguably the 2 most competitive MD fields.

 

[EctopicFetus]

OK - noted.

Good.. 😛

 

[SquidDoc]

Is this based on your experience? Much better teaching? Please? Curriculum.. its med school dont we all learn the same stuff? As far as quality of people this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard? What is this based on? You must be right all MDs are mean and all DOs are just super nice and kind. Generalizations like that are foolish. Good luck..

Now this part I 100% agree with. Equality I will argue for, but superiority? Come on... The same people in MD programs are in DO programs... the only difference is a couple of points on the MCAT, or a choice based on personal ties or belief in philosophy (which ends up being very similar in real application)

 

[EctopicFetus]

At no point did I hop on this thing to bash DOs and IMO I HAVENT. I previously posted that the smartest EM resident I ever met was a DO. Dude was incredibly smart. My points are still valid.. 1) life is tougher for DOs because your options are more limited and 2) people will at some point give you crap for being a DO (I dont think this is right I am just saying).

For those who think I dont know what I am talking about compare the stuff on the Allo board vs the DO board. The DO board has some threads about MDs and the MD board doesnt. This is the kind of BS you should expect to have to deal with thats all I am saying.

 

[SquidDoc]

Squid my question is this.. was that a truly representative list or just representative of one school? I dont know much about individual DO programs.. So my question is.. is that representative of DOs or a 1 yr anomaly or 1 particular excellent school? As far as

I would be impressed with someone in Derm or esp in Rad Onc as these are arguably the 2 most competitive MD fields.

Squid<-- future Derm!

My school (COMP) is middle of the road average when it comes to DO schools. Its kind of amusing that our board scores for COMLEX are average, but our USMLE scores are actually above average. Heck, my roomate scored above the 95% on the USMLE, and 90% on the COMLEX. Sure, he is an exception, and not the rule, but it would be really cool if he picks up Rad onc and I end up doing Derm. I am going to cheat and go through the military to do Derm though, so that does take some of the bias out of the way.

 

[EctopicFetus]

I dont think going Military is cheating but their match is completely different. From what I hear in some ways it is totally flipped like Peds is super competetive and they cant find someone to do ENT, Ortho etc.. Just weird. Squid good luck with Derm man its a sweet life.

Certainly there are DOs who rock the boards there is a guy on the EM board who got 250+ on Step2 and is doing well. I think my step 2 will be good but I dont think i will touch 250. I think that standardized tests are BS even though I do ok on them.. In the end you and me agree 100% on the idea that a person needs to be judged on their own merits not where they went to school etc. That being said my opinion isnt necessarily shared by all in MD programs and residencies. Good luck man..

 

[J1515]

My points are still valid.. 1) life is tougher for DOs because your options are more limited
.

Your point is only valid if you find a DO student who wants to go into rads, derm, or surgery. I personally have ZERO interest in ever going into any type of surgery residency and I felt that way before I applied and got accepted to both to MD and DO schools.

You try to tell me that a person who loves working with kids and whose dream it is to become a pediatrician will have a difficult time as a DO. How about the guy who WANTS to go into internal medicine? The biggest misconception that egotistical pre-meds and med students (not necessarily you) have is that every single person wants to be an all-mighty and powerful neurosurgeon, M.D. Well that's false and that's the idiotic assumption that starts MD vs DO wars.

 

[EctopicFetus]

Your point is only valid if you find a DO student who wants to go into rads, derm, or surgery. I personally have ZERO interest in ever going into any type of surgery residency and I felt that way before I applied and got accepted to both to MD and DO schools.

You try to tell me that a person who loves working with kids and whose dream it is to become a pediatrician will have a difficult time as a DO. How about the guy who WANTS to go into internal medicine? The biggest misconception that egotistical pre-meds and med students (not necessarily you) have is that every single person wants to be an all-mighty and powerful neurosurgeon, M.D. Well that's false and that's the idiotic assumption that starts MD vs DO wars.

Thank you for exempting me..If you looked over my previous posts I simply stated that life is tougher for DOs in general (people being dumb IMO) and in the competitive fields. As far as DOs in Peds or IM I dont know how the top notch programs treat you guys. For Peds I dont know who gets into CHOP or Childrens in Chicago, for IM I dont know who goes to Harvard or Hopkins. All that being said not everyone wants to go to those places.. As stated time and again going into FP, medicine, and Peds doesnt require much more than getting out of DO or MD school in the US or abroad. I think everyone can agree the real answer to the "difference" besides philosphical difference is the ability to get into SOME of the top programs in SOME fields and generally getting into competitive Allo fields all together.

 

[J1515]

All that being said not everyone wants to go to those places.. As stated time and again going into FP, medicine, and Peds doesnt require much more than getting out of DO or MD school in the US or abroad.

What does that mean to the person who wants to become a pediatrician? He or she will achieve his or her goal in life. They don't care about the snobby allo surgery residency or derm residency.

I think everyone can agree the real answer to the "difference" besides philosphical difference is the ability to get into SOME of the top programs in SOME fields and generally getting into competitive Allo fields all together.

Yes. I didn't see Harvard on NYCOMs most recent match list (can't comment on other schools). I did however see Cleveland Clinic matches. Also Schneiders childrens hospital, North Shore/LIJ matches on there - both respectable residency programs with good name recognition in NY. Regardless, throwing names around means nothing. I know when we were all in undergrad we all wanted to be the best of the best, but in reality not everyone needs to see that Harvard or Stanford name on their diploma. There are hundreds of other residency programs out there that don't have that name recognition but will provide a good or great education. I'm speaking for myself, but name means nothing to me with regards to the letters that follow my name, the medical school I chose and the residency I will choose. If I'm at some inner city hospital for my residency that isn't Harvard or Columbia or any nationally recognized name, but I see a patient population with cultural diversity and varied pathology I'll be happy as a pig in you know what.

 

[TSisk23]

To answer the OP question I personally cannot see how they would be too different...if you get bored just go to both allopathic and osteopathic school websites and see who is on staff...I have gone to several allopathic schools sites, Utah and Duke for example, and both have DO's on staff. Someone also said awhile back about Nebraska's transplant program had a DO on staff. And it is known quite well known that osteopathic institutions have MDs on staff. Besides the one class, OMM, it appears they cannot be too much different based on who they have teaching.

A few links in case you cared:

http://www.dukehealthraleigh.org/physicians/47

http://uuhsc.utah.edu/uuhsc/FindADo...yNz1TS1dNT1dRX0wgCg==&spec=Emergency Medicine

http://uuhsc.utah.edu/uuhsc/FindADo...WTYyNz1TS1dNQ19TP0wgCg==&spec=OB/Gyn, General

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/staff/getstaff.asp?StaffId=5132

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/hear...results.asp?specialty=Cardiovascular+Medicine

http://www.shandsjacksonville.org/public/find/bio.asp?id=2383

http://www.unr.edu/med/residency/lasvegas/surgery/faculty.asp

https://medschool.mc.vanderbilt.edu/facultydata/php_files/show_faculty.php?id3=11615

http://www.radiology.upmc.edu/faculty/orons.html

 

[njbmd]

Hi there,
In 2005, there is practically no difference in the education of a DO (Doctor of Ostopathic Medicine) and MD( Doctor of Medicine [allopathic]) except that DOs learn OMM as part of their curriculum. There are special residencies that are only open to DO grads but MD residencies are open to DO and MD grads. As a DO, you can choose to include OMM as part of your practice or not. DOs serve in every speciality from ENT to neurosurgery but many DO grads have traditionally been involved in primary care.

In 2005, there are far less DO grads than MD grads but that number is changing as the number of DO medical schools has increased. If you do a search on the web for "osteopathic medicine" you will find a history of osteopathic medicine and how it has evolved in this country.

Many allopathic physicians believe that the DO education is inferior to an MD education but thinking along those lines is dated and obsolete. The vast differences between DO and MD are more individual than medical. Your patients do not care if you are DO or MD as long as you are able to take care of them.

It is true that DO schools look for other characteristics in their candidates as opposed to strictly numbers (GPA and MCAT) as there is no correlation between success in the practice of medicine and these numbers. It is also true that non-traditional students have found greater success in admission to osteopathic medical schools than allopathic medical schools.

In 2005, with the increased number of medical schools especially DO, you have more choices in more locations. As the number of DO grads increases, they will become more commonplace. Anyone who puts down a graduate of osteopathic medical based on degree is pretty uneducated and misinformed. While the AOA (American Osteopathic Association) is much smaller than the AMA (American Medical Association), they are not about to relinquish their identity and merge with the AMA so do not believe that DO and MD will merge in the future even though they do the same thing.

njbmd 🙂

 

[EctopicFetus]

What does that mean to the person who wants to become a pediatrician? He or she will achieve his or her goal in life. They don't care about the snobby allo surgery residency or derm residency.



Yes. I didn't see Harvard on NYCOMs most recent match list (can't comment on other schools). I did however see Cleveland Clinic matches. Also Schneiders childrens hospital, North Shore/LIJ matches on there - both respectable residency programs with good name recognition in NY. Regardless, throwing names around means nothing. I know when we were all in undergrad we all wanted to be the best of the best, but in reality not everyone needs to see that Harvard or Stanford name on their diploma. There are hundreds of other residency programs out there that don't have that name recognition but will provide a good or great education. I'm speaking for myself, but name means nothing to me with regards to the letters that follow my name, the medical school I chose and the residency I will choose. If I'm at some inner city hospital for my residency that isn't Harvard or Columbia or any nationally recognized name, but I see a patient population with cultural diversity and varied pathology I'll be happy as a pig in you know what.

But for those pediatricians who want to go on to the competitive fellowships it DOES matter. The peds residents at CHOP etc have an easier time going into Peds Cards, Peds EM etc. Of course if you want to throw up your shingle all you have to do is go to ANY community hospital and you will be well trained to be a general peds doc. I am glad for everyone who is happy being a DO there is NO reason not to be. Somehow many of you have felt scorned by others on the Allo site and have a hard time agreeing with my 2 premises which ARE the only differences in our education. Why is it hard to come out and agree I dont understand, it seems like everyone just wants to dance around the issue. On that note.. I am done with this board as there is little value in it for me. It doesnt seem like you guys want to hear anything except how great DO school is.. If you want to believe your DO is as valuable to a PD (residency) as one from Harvard then go ahead and believe that. I know my MD isnt the same but if you want to think your DO is go ahead. On that note I am out and wont be coming back here Ill let you guys make each other feel great. Sure your patients wont know if you are MD or DO but if you cant be the doctor you want to be you will. 😉

 

[J1515]

But for those pediatricians who want to go on to the competitive fellowships it DOES matter.

I'm not sure what part of this you don't understand, but NOT EVERYBODY WANTS TO GO ON TO A COMPETITIVE FELLOWSHIP OR COMPETITIVE FIELD OF MEDICINE! I would like to do EM or IM. No fellowship, no Harvard residency.. damn, how am I ever going to live with myself, I should just quit now.

Why is it hard to come out and agree I dont understand, it seems like everyone just wants to dance around the issue.

I suppose in my last post when I said "I agree with you 100%" it wasn't clear enough.

It doesnt seem like you guys want to hear anything except how great DO school is.. If you want to believe your DO is as valuable to a PD (residency) as one from Harvard then go ahead and believe that.

Who said anything about how great DO school is? I told you before that with some specialties DOs are at a disadvantage, but not everyone wants to go into those specialties. You come in here making a blanket statement that DOs are at a disadvantage. That's not completely true, depending on what field they want to go into.

On that note I am out and wont be coming back here

Why were you here in the first place? To make DOs realize that they'll never be as valuable to the world as an MD?