Difficult/angry patients

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.

Stitch

Jedi Ninja Wizard
Moderator Emeritus
20+ Year Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
5,480
Reaction score
176
So I'm hitting my winter slump and the waiting room is constantly full. The quick fixes, even if minor care, I really don't mind, and I'm happy to treat an ear infection or just diagnose a cold if it's that simple. What gets me down is the angry, entitled bunch, and it just seems like it's worse this time of year. Maybe it just comes in waves because honestlly it's not something that I generally see a lot of, but in the end is the type of thing that burns me out.

Examples: A mother filed a 2 page letter of complaint about me because I didn't get a CBC on her 4 year old who vomited three times. She apparently went to an urgent care center where a CBC was obtained and then she was sent home on Zithromax. 🙄

Another woman goes off on me because she doesn't get antibiotics, calling me all sorts of names.

Someone with 2 years of abdominal pain who has seen every specialist and had every test/scope/surgical consult possible wants me to fix her and find answers because she's 'tired of dealing with it.' Irate when I can't help her.

How do you guys talk down a really pissed off patient? Do you just cave? How do you deal with it meantally? I'm lucky to have a great department head who sticks up for us and stands by our decisions. Maybe just share your stories and I'll feel better.
 
So I'm hitting my winter slump and the waiting room is constantly full. The quick fixes, even if minor care, I really don't mind, and I'm happy to treat an ear infection or just diagnose a cold if it's that simple. What gets me down is the angry, entitled bunch, and it just seems like it's worse this time of year. Maybe it just comes in waves because honestlly it's not something that I generally see a lot of, but in the end is the type of thing that burns me out.

Examples: A mother filed a 2 page letter of complaint about me because I didn't get a CBC on her 4 year old who vomited three times. She apparently went to an urgent care center where a CBC was obtained and then she was sent home on Zithromax. 🙄

Another woman goes off on me because she doesn't get antibiotics, calling me all sorts of names.

Someone with 2 years of abdominal pain who has seen every specialist and had every test/scope/surgical consult possible wants me to fix her and find answers because she's 'tired of dealing with it.' Irate when I can't help her.

How do you guys talk down a really pissed off patient? Do you just cave? How do you deal with it meantally? I'm lucky to have a great department head who sticks up for us and stands by our decisions. Maybe just share your stories and I'll feel better.

EM is a hard way to make a living, my friend. It just is. Sometimes you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't and "no good deed goes unpunished". Yes, we live a life of cliches. Ever literally saved a life and gone to tell the family the great news and been shocked when the were literally pissed off at you? I have.
 
We have some very entitled patients where I work. People who are mad when they wait 45 minutes to be seen and who sometimes dont care that they guy next door is coding.

Here is how I deal with it.

When we run a wait I literally apologize to every patient I see and acknowledge their wait. I dont apologize for my work by rather it goes like this.

" Hi Mr X, Im Dr Fetus. I'm sorry youve been waiting but its been real busy. Im here now to take care of you tell me what brings you in?"

This quick thing defuses them and they usually see me running around so they get it.

The people who are just completely unreasonable I just say Im gonna give them the name of the specialist and they can see them. Then tell them that we only screen for emergent conditions and one doesnt seem to be present. I offer them the name of whatever specialist I think they need that we have on call and tell them they can follow up with them or their own specialist.

Sometimes people are just so frustrated they dont know what to do and since they dont have a relationship with you they feel they can piss and moan on you. I just let it roll off my back.
 
It little compensation (as a frequent lurker, but non-medical) I really appreciate the few times that I have had to be in an ED-you guys have been wonderful. We- the silent grateful- are less vocal (and perhaps need to be more so, I am afraid). We also notice some of the horrible people we wait with. Hats off to ya. I hope you find a way to deal with them. We need you.
 
i'm also interested to hear what others say about this

it's a given some people have unrealistic expectations. if i run into one of those, i document my thinking, what i consider standard of care is for the problem, and why i can't/will not provide what they want in my mdm. then, i honestly just try to forget about them. i figure they are not worth extra time in my brain. we all see those people (and take turns seeing them).

for difficult/angry people that i can sense from the beginning of the encounter, i turn on the customer service. yeah, you feel like an idiot and like you are kissing a** but the goal is to get them to like/respect you/even tolerate you so they aren't motivated to complain.

1. i try to sit down and set a time limit the minute i walk in the door
2. i try to smile and be pleasant (ESPECIALLY when i want to punch something)
3. i say something like what ef said "hi, i'm dr. x." i physically shake their hand. "it is nice to meet you. thank you for waiting, we have been quite busy today. now we can focus on you/your child/family member."
4. at the end of my hpi/pe, i ask if they need anything- a blanket/glass of water can go a long way
5. i reinforce the normality of the physical exam, general well appearance (while acknowledging their cold makes them feel horrible), and sometimes say "thank goodness there is no evidence of a life or limb threatening emergency, and that you don't need to be admitted to the hospital. that is of course, what i worry about first as an emergency physician."
6. sometimes i say, if i think it is appropriate, "if i were you, or this was my family/child, i would feel comfortable doing treatment y"
7. at the end of the encounter, i try to stop in the door, say thanks for coming in, and ask if we can do anything else on their way out the door.
8. i practice in the midwest- i think our patient pop is overall pretty "nice" compared to other parts of the country...

these things seem to work well for me. these patients come with the turf unfortunately- i figure my high acuity pts make up for it.
 
Last edited:
here's my last awesome patient

i confront a patient as i suspect he is using a false identity in order to obtain narcotics (no id, wrote down his name/birthdate he gave the triage rn in front of her right after he told her, witnessed to be walking to the bathroom without difficulty after he presented with severe back pain crying and clutching his back)

he screams at me when i confront him and refuse to prescribe narcs, states i am discriminating against him and his ethnicity, i'm a bad ***** doctor, etc.

then leaves, signing his real name on the discharge paperwork.
 
then leaves, signing his real name on the discharge paperwork.


Beautiful!


I've been using the basic tact that emrox and Ectopic described. I've managed to diffuse a huge percentage of these difficult folks in that way. The rest I give a reasonable amount of time to, repeatedly explain why in the ED I cannot do whatever it is they are demanding I do, and offer anything (reasonable) that I can do in the ED (ie: try a different medication, give information on some specialist I think may be able to help them outpatient).


This seems to help with many of the rest with the noted exception of the chronic abdominal/pelvic pain people. I've had a few recently outright demand that I "fix it" now. *sigh* I eventually have to tell those that I'm afraid there is nothing else I can do for them in the ED tonight and it is time to go home now.


Stitch, I wish there were some way to appease all of these folks, but some just have unreasonable expectations that there is no way for us to meet.
 
Expanding on things from emrox:

3. i say something like what ef said "hi, i'm dr. x." i physically shake their hand. "it is nice to meet you. thank you for waiting, we have been quite busy today. now we can focus on you/your child/family member." you have absolutely no idea how much this means to patients. it helps them validate their feelings about delays, but hearing just this really goes a long way in building the patient-doctor interaction

4. at the end of my hpi/pe, i ask if they need anything- a blanket/glass of water can go a long way Patients don't remember much, like whether you got the right diagnosis, etc. What they do remember is that you cared for them by offering water, or a blanket or a creature comfort for them in the ED. This is what satisfaction is built on.

7. at the end of the encounter, i try to stop in the door, say thanks for coming in, and ask if we can do anything else on their way out the door.see above- same thing- patients remember crap like this.
 
Expanding on things from emrox:

3. i say something like what ef said "hi, i'm dr. x." i physically shake their hand. "it is nice to meet you. thank you for waiting, we have been quite busy today. now we can focus on you/your child/family member." you have absolutely no idea how much this means to patients. it helps them validate their feelings about delays, but hearing just this really goes a long way in building the patient-doctor interaction

4. at the end of my hpi/pe, i ask if they need anything- a blanket/glass of water can go a long way Patients don't remember much, like whether you got the right diagnosis, etc. What they do remember is that you cared for them by offering water, or a blanket or a creature comfort for them in the ED. This is what satisfaction is built on.

7. at the end of the encounter, i try to stop in the door, say thanks for coming in, and ask if we can do anything else on their way out the door.see above- same thing- patients remember crap like this.

Dude, this ain't Jack-N-The-Box. At the end of the day if I have to brown nose to the ever growing list of whiners, versus being a fine physician, then I really don't give a darn what they think. I'm willing to give the warm blanket, but when people get demanding on how I provide quality care, then I'm just not worried about it.

What the patient wants is not always what they need. In the end, the practice of medicine is best practiced by the physician, not the patient who printed out a google search and stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
 
There was a study that Kaiser did looking at patient satisfaction or lack there of, and many of the things mentioned previously were on the list.

One thing that an attending told me was that make sure that you address the patient's agenda or specific complaint. Often times what we are concerned about and what a patient is worried about are different. It can make a world of difference with a breif phrase validating their complaint, and then expressing your concern.

"I understand you are uncomfortable and in pain, and we are working to fix that, but in the meantime I am concerned about XYZ and would like to check you out for this. blah blah"

Also, sometimes when we need to get away from a patient (for whatever reason), I say something like, "I understand that is a lot more to your story, but from what you have told me, I would like to get some more tests cooking, so we can make you feel better and get you on your way back home with your family"

Even though I am only an MS4 , it has helped wonders on rotations.
 
I also apologize for the wait while introducing myself and it seems to defuse many. Often it is more the family member that you are defusing, particularly if the patient is actually sick at all.

I think it was a greg henry or jerry hoffman piece on emrap in the past couple years where he mentioned the way he makes clear to the patient that they are, in a way, teammates, both interested in the best interests of the patient. This general tactic of verbalizing that I am trying to do what is right for the patient and that we are working together, whether I am doing what yahoo answers suggested or not, seems to get through to people.

It also seems to help to point out that just because it is a virus or a sprain doesn't mean you don't feel like crap or hurt and that I understand that.
 
Thanks, guys, it helps to hear your tactics and that I'm not the only one. I think I've just hit a few in a row and that made me feel like it's everyone.


Dude, this ain't Jack-N-The-Box. At the end of the day if I have to brown nose to the ever growing list of whiners, versus being a fine physician, then I really don't give a darn what they think. I'm willing to give the warm blanket, but when people get demanding on how I provide quality care, then I'm just not worried about it.

What the patient wants is not always what they need. In the end, the practice of medicine is best practiced by the physician, not the patient who printed out a google search and stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

While I agree with the sentiment, it seems that most admin views patients as customers. This is clearly the wrong model, but we are under increasing pressure to more or less just make people happy though of course we're still responsible for the outcome. I don't know what the solution is here because the trend is getting worse, not better.
 
Dude, this ain't Jack-N-The-Box. At the end of the day if I have to brown nose to the ever growing list of whiners, versus being a fine physician, then I really don't give a darn what they think. I'm willing to give the warm blanket, but when people get demanding on how I provide quality care, then I'm just not worried about it.

What the patient wants is not always what they need. In the end, the practice of medicine is best practiced by the physician, not the patient who printed out a google search and stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

not once did I mention that I change the quality of care that I give my patients. i don't sacrifice my medical knowledge or my care, or the skills that I have, but in this day and age of medicine and press-ganey over our heads, etc, sometimes small little things go a lot further than you'd think.
 
Another thing that has helped me with the really pathological people is to try to remember that they have been wallowing in their Axis X disorder for years now and that by confronting it I can only make them angry.

Unfortunately this forces you to frequently take the path of least resistance - giving narcs, admitting, etc.

I've taken care of several people in the last few days who make it clear that they hate/distrust all doctors and so I'd better get it right. In that situation you (the doc) has essentially no power and they (the patient) have a great deal of it. If you fight a battle and "win" you get a complaint letter.
 
If you fight a battle and "win" you get a complaint letter.

That's a main issue. The patients can cause you far more pain then you can cause them. Sometimes it's worthwhile for things like preventing drug diversion or not tying up a bed with unnecessary testing when the waiting room is full. Many other times it's not, because you're going to spend some much time dealing with it that your ability to care for your other patients is impaired.
 
Last edited:
Treat the people you want to come back extra nice. If you cave and give in to drug-seekers and a-holes, they'll be back! I got a call the other night from a colleague in the ED at our sister hospital saying "Patient Smith is here, can I get her lab results?" I said, "Smith, she's in room 7." He said, "No she's not." Sure enough, neither I nor the nurse had seen her elope after I told her I would probably never prescribe her a narcotic the rest of her life.
 
The hospital system I work in has a pain management protocol. We stick those we suspect of being drug seekers on this. It is an amazing deterrent. People come in we tell them oh Mr X you know you are on pain management. All I can do is give you 2 lortab and no prescriptions.

This lack of reward lets them go elsewhere. We also have a statewide drug database. So any narc, benzo, ambien, soma is all on this online system. I have on multiple occasions printed this out before I even walk in the room.

We also have a deal with our admin that basically we wont worry about complaints sent in regarding pain management patients.
 
The biggest problem right now for me is the "Customer Service" kick that the hospitals are on, though how they can be "Customers" when 20-30% of people demand services for no compensation is beyond me. Can't think of another business model that works that way.

The hospital takes every complaint letter from every wacko, nutjob, and drug addict seriously. Typically the patient complains, the hospital launches an "investigation", finds the doctor in question guilty, doesn't review the medical record or speak to the accused physician, then issues a letter of apology to the patient as well as a reprimand to the physician.

I've received 2 or 3 of these "reprimands" for investigations I didn't even know were going on. They neither asked my view of the case, or read my chart before finding me guilty. It is incredibly disheartening.
 
The biggest problem right now for me is the "Customer Service" kick that the hospitals are on, though how they can be "Customers" when 20-30% of people demand services for no compensation is beyond me. Can't think of another business model that works that way.....

Oh I can...sounds like my job/career now!
 
The "customer service" aspect of EM is an unfortunate distortion of our work, motivated solely by monetary gain.

Being friendly, respectful, and fair to our patients should go without saying, but making special efforts on service with the intention of increasing or encouraging patronage is ethically inappropriate, based on our oath as physicians. One of our four bioethical principles of our profession is justice, our duty to society as a whole. Part of that duty is the safeguarding of limited healthcare resources - reducing unnecessary testing, appropriate use of antibiotics, judicious admission criteria, etc. - and should include discouraging elective use of the Emergency Department for minor complaints.

It is somewhat of a double-edged sword, of course, as those insured patients with ambulatory complaints represent the funding for our comfortable paychecks and lifestyle. However, they overwhelm providers and reduce our availability for the truly emergent conditions, and by utilizing high-cost Emergency Departments rather than their PMD or a less-expensive community resource, they contribute to higher insurance premium costs and higher government expenditures on healthcare.

In the most Draconian interpretation, that would entail strict adherence to the mandated medical screening examination, and turning people away for non-emergent conditions. In a more realistic sense - yet antithesis to the customer service and ED wait-time advertising exhorted by the business-types - it might be "I'm glad we could help you with this today. Please don't come to the Emergency Department for this sort of minor issue in the future."

Who will win? We'll see when the money truly runs out....
 
In the most Draconian interpretation, that would entail strict adherence to the mandated medical screening examination, and turning people away for non-emergent conditions. In a more realistic sense - yet antithesis to the customer service and ED wait-time advertising exhorted by the business-types - it might be "I'm glad we could help you with this today. Please don't come to the Emergency Department for this sort of minor issue in the future."

Who will win? We'll see when the money truly runs out....

This will be one of the few areas where government can improve things. After all we know government doesn't care about customer service.
 
The last time I was in the ED, I can tell you that what made me feel better faster was not pain meds, but someone giving me a nice, warm blanket, and a tub to barf in, and turning the lights in the curtained area off until they came to examine me.

I didn't need pain meds. I didn't need someone to cater to my every whim and say, "Oh yes, ma'am, we'll go to Rio to get that coconut for you right away!" I just needed a blanket, a tub to barf in, and no lights directly in my eyes that made me barf more. And the phenergan didn't hurt any, either, once it kicked in and I quit barfing and finally was able to rest.

The person who gave me a blanket, something to barf in, and a little bit of sympathy made the most miserable experience of my life a little better. I never, ever want to have food poisoning again, but if I ever have to go back to the ED, I'd like doctors and nurses like the ones I had during that miserable piece of Hell.
 
It amazes me how lovely and understanding some patients and their families are; it also amazes me obnoxious and self-centered some others can be. Fortunately, I haven't had many of the latter recently.

I sincerely believe warm blankets are the best thing ever! Little old lady + warm blanket = happiness!

Odd trend recently...patients who had been seen at other local hospitals who after discharge came to see us for a "second opinion" I've of course seen this when patients don't get what they wanted at the other hospital and come to us complaining about the other hospital. However, I have seen a few lately that weren't upset at all; they just wanted to know if the other doctor had done the right stuff.

I hope those of you who having been having a run of the "difficult customers" come out the other side soon! It can be hard not to let them suck the life out of you!
 
AMEN xaelia... i've heard of places where "scripting" is actively encouraged, to the point of quoting the pt satisfaction survey for word recognition later on and saying things like "if i or my family had pulm/card/whatever problems, i'd come here too". give me a friggin break. i'm a physician, not a PR rep, and FWIW my pt satisfaction scores are very high w/o any damn scripting or other bs. i just treat people well and try to be nice.
 
I can't believe that hospitals actually are pushing "customer satisfaction" as opposed to actual patient care. That boggles the mind. You're not there to make people feel like they're being wined and dined in a four star resort. You're there to diagnose and treat emergent conditions.

Honestly, *I* don't see the problem with telling drug-seeking patients, "We know why you're here, and you're not going to get Dilaudid/morphine/whatever today, or any other day, unless you present with an honest-to-God emergent condition." But, since people are all about getting what they want, no matter what, I'm not surprised that hospital admin is all over making sure people are "happy" with their treatment.
 
I can't believe that hospitals actually are pushing "customer satisfaction" as opposed to actual patient care. That boggles the mind. You're not there to make people feel like they're being wined and dined in a four star resort. You're there to diagnose and treat emergent conditions.

Except we're not. It's like saying fire fighters are there to fight fires. That may be why they exist, but in most municipalities FFs spend the majority of their time working as medics and going on non-fire related calls. The dirty truth is that true emergency care is a big money loser. We're the convenience room, because it's the patients that don't need to see us that make us our money. And if we didn't have that source of funding then we wouldn't get our nice facilities, toys, and ancillary staff (Grady, Charity, and SUNY-Downstate come to mind as examples).



Honestly, *I* don't see the problem with telling drug-seeking patients, "We know why you're here, and you're not going to get Dilaudid/morphine/whatever today, or any other day, unless you present with an honest-to-God emergent condition." But, since people are all about getting what they want, no matter what, I'm not surprised that hospital admin is all over making sure people are "happy" with their treatment.

I don't give into drug-seekers, but have you ever listened to one of the drug-seekers in a social setting describing their ED experience? The tale of woe that spills forth is such that, if you didn't know the person for what they were, you would never want to have any association with that hospital if given a choice. Some administrators are fine with taking that hit, others that are in highly competitive markets with a good payor mix are going to be fearful of any potential negative word of mouth.
 
When we get deadlocked, I'm working, and there is a long wait, I go out every 2 hours to the waiting and make "the annoucement.":

"Good Evening Ladies and Gentleman. I'm Dr. ______, the attending physician in the back where the ambulances keep coming in. I would like to apologize for your wait, and I know that your time and health are important. Please know that we are doing the best we can to get you back as quickly as possible, and we hope to address all of your concerns when you do. I personally thank you for your patience and hope that you will continue to stay until you have been seen. I apologize again for your delay."

Since I have started making this 15 second announcement, patients have been coming back happy, and are even thanking me for making that announcement. The nurses love it too because the patients are angry. This have also helped my PG scores because people identify me as their "doctor" before I have even seen them. The best part - I don't have to apologize to everyone when I see them!
 
Honestly, *I* don't see the problem with telling drug-seeking patients, "We know why you're here, and you're not going to get Dilaudid/morphine/whatever today, or any other day, unless you present with an honest-to-God emergent condition." But, since people are all about getting what they want, no matter what, I'm not surprised that hospital admin is all over making sure people are "happy" with their treatment.

Are you suggesting that the admins who care the most about satisfaction surveys should be in the exam rooms so patients can have "happy endings" to their ED visit?
 
Are you suggesting that the admins who care the most about satisfaction surveys should be in the exam rooms so patients can have "happy endings" to their ED visit?

Well, if that's what it takes to get them to shut up about satisfaction surveys? Sounds good to me.
 
If it makes you feel any better, my .02 without really reading the thread... The bottom line is that you get paid to put up with this kind of stuff no matter what your job is. Go be a mechanic and have people incessantly #$&"ing about their car and how you are ripping them off. Go be a lawyer and have crooks and criminals berate you for defending them poorly even though they are guilty. Go flip burgers and deal with rude d bags all day and get a little extra crap from your coworkers or supervisors...

Bottom line, that is why they pay people to have jobs most of the time, to put up with crap. Whether it helps or not, I am not sure, but being a doc is just like many other jobs.. crap from all angles. The good news is I can take a lot of crap, and so can most EM docs..

Just some perspective.
 
If it makes you feel any better, my .02 without really reading the thread... The bottom line is that you get paid to put up with this kind of stuff no matter what your job is. Go be a mechanic and have people incessantly #$&"ing about their car and how you are ripping them off. Go be a lawyer and have crooks and criminals berate you for defending them poorly even though they are guilty. Go flip burgers and deal with rude d bags all day and get a little extra crap from your coworkers or supervisors...

Bottom line, that is why they pay people to have jobs most of the time, to put up with crap. Whether it helps or not, I am not sure, but being a doc is just like many other jobs.. crap from all angles. The good news is I can take a lot of crap, and so can most EM docs..

Just some perspective.
interesting post but i think you are missing the point. the things that happen in our job are nothing like those mentioned. In the end we have to continue to fight for a better and more just work environment. Saying well thats part of the job is just begging to be taken advantage of.
 
Bottom line, that is why they pay people to have jobs most of the time, to put up with crap. Whether it helps or not, I am not sure, but being a doc is just like many other jobs.. crap from all angles. The good news is I can take a lot of crap, and so can most EM docs..

No. Beinga doctor is different. As I stated above our "patient" are not "customers". They are people who have a medical problem or possibly an emergency who come to the hospital because they are dying. We don't provided a price list, and we don't ask for money up front (at least I can't). Many of these patients have no intention of every paying one dime, and many can't afford it. Therefore they are not customers.

I'm trained as a physician, not in customer service. If you want to "pay" for a "service" then I'm happy to treat you as a customer. Until we adopt that model I think it's ridiculous to pretend that we are service employees.
 
It absolutely blows my mind that so many people here and in actual medical practice get so bent out of shape about the customer service aspect of emergency medicine.

The way I go into things is I take care of my patients the way I'd expect another physician to take care of my family or loved ones if they were in the ED...both medically and as a human being. If it means me getting a blanket or a glass of ice water, and taking an extra 10 seconds out of my day to do that, then I guess I'm guilty of selling out.
 
Let's not manufacture a dialectic where one needn't exist. I don't think even GV is saying that there's something anti-medical about giving a little old lady a warm blanket. The problem arises when customer services supersedes patient care.

Here are my priorities:
1- Take good care of the patient.
2- Run the ED well.
3- Make patients happy.

When patients are presenting for actual emergencies, performing #1 fulfills #3. But sometimes I can't fulfill #2 without loosing a bit on #3 for some subset of my patients.

So, while I absolutely relish taking the extra minute it takes to get a warm blanket for a family member at 2am (I really do), it should never be more important than seeing the acute stroke tPA candidate immediately upon arrival to the ED.
 
Let's not manufacture a dialectic where one needn't exist. I don't think even GV is saying that there's something anti-medical about giving a little old lady a warm blanket. The problem arises when customer services supersedes patient care.

Here are my priorities:
1- Take good care of the patient.
2- Run the ED well.
3- Make patients happy.

When patients are presenting for actual emergencies, performing #1 fulfills #3. But sometimes I can't fulfill #2 without loosing a bit on #3 for some subset of my patients.

So, while I absolutely relish taking the extra minute it takes to get a warm blanket for a family member at 2am (I really do), it should never be more important than seeing the acute stroke tPA candidate immediately upon arrival to the ED.

And, I never said that customer service supercedes patient care. Patient care always comes first, whether it involves the tPA candidate or the person with a finger laceration. But part of patient care includes the intangibles that it takes to do the other things.

Patients put doctors on a different level than anyone else. They expect us to give it our all, in every aspect of care, from using all of our intelligence to diagnose their troubles to the other, human aspects. Part of being a good doctor involves those other things.

The best doctors I know (and have EVER known) are the ones that can manage all aspects, from direct care to bedside manner. The worst ones I know are the ones that forget how to be a human being.
 
And, I never said that customer service supercedes patient care. Patient care always comes first, whether it involves the tPA candidate or the person with a finger laceration. But part of patient care includes the intangibles that it takes to do the other things.

Patients put doctors on a different level than anyone else. They expect us to give it our all, in every aspect of care, from using all of our intelligence to diagnose their troubles to the other, human aspects. Part of being a good doctor involves those other things.

The best doctors I know (and have EVER known) are the ones that can manage all aspects, from direct care to bedside manner. The worst ones I know are the ones that forget how to be a human being.

And I strive for the same things. However, this is a two way street.
 
No. Beinga doctor is different. As I stated above our "patient" are not "customers". They are people who have a medical problem or possibly an emergency who come to the hospital because they are dying. We don't provided a price list, and we don't ask for money up front (at least I can't). Many of these patients have no intention of every paying one dime, and many can't afford it. Therefore they are not customers.

I'm trained as a physician, not in customer service. If you want to "pay" for a "service" then I'm happy to treat you as a customer. Until we adopt that model I think it's ridiculous to pretend that we are service employees.


Agree, and "customer service" very, VERY often translates into the wrong thing for the patient.

I had a mom come in with her spoiled 14 year old who had a "sinus infection" or at least that was mom's dx. Mom was very clear that I was very cute and all with my white coat and my medical degree but that she knew what we needed and that was a "z pack."

Girl had a cold, and not a bad one at that. Not bad enough to stop her from texting long enough to make eye contact.

Path of least resistance: z pack. Because if I don't mom complains to all that will listen.

It happens with CT scans too, these people with chronic abdominal pain x 10 years who come in eating cheetos and saying that I g****mn well better figure out the elusive dx tonight when their pain is slightly different. What they need to be booted out on their arse with the number of a GI doc but if you're the one who misses that early diverticulitis superimposed on chronic AP then you're going to get dinged.


I don't have an inflated view of my skills or abilities, but sometimes when I'm talking to these people I think about what my skills actually are. You can come in almost dead and barely breathing and in an hour you can be stable on a vent with decent BP/UOP with a sterile central line in your body, an ICU bed, and 2 appropriate and timely consults because I got my hands on you. Sometimes you want to scream that at the "customers."
 
If it makes you feel any better, my .02 without really reading the thread... The bottom line is that you get paid to put up with this kind of stuff no matter what your job is. Go be a mechanic and have people incessantly #$&"ing about their car and how you are ripping them off. Go be a lawyer and have crooks and criminals berate you for defending them poorly even though they are guilty. Go flip burgers and deal with rude d bags all day and get a little extra crap from your coworkers or supervisors...

Bottom line, that is why they pay people to have jobs most of the time, to put up with crap. Whether it helps or not, I am not sure, but being a doc is just like many other jobs.. crap from all angles. The good news is I can take a lot of crap, and so can most EM docs..

Just some perspective.

Alright, time for Birdstrike to weigh in and drop some reality into this thread. Somebody's got to tell it like it is.

Goodoldalky,

First of all, if you can "take a lot of crap" as you say, you might really like GI so you can do colonoscopies. On a more serious note, you're right, being an ER doctor is exactly like being a highly paid burger flipper. That's the whole point. Keep in mind I've been "flipping burgers" as an ER doc for quite some time now. But here's the rub: behavior one tenth as outrageous and at times downright illegal as what a "difficult ER patient" can throw down in the ER and force you to put up with, would get you thrown out and banned forever from your local "Happy Burger" and many times arrested; but not in the ER. I've had a patient who would...how should I put it....touch himself in a very inappropriate way every time one of our female PAs would go into the room to check on him. We had to take care of this guy, again, and again, and again! He's a frequent flier and keeps coming back. The same guy comes in demanding narcotics all the time and has been know to abuse them and likely, sell them. This would get you arrested at your above-mentioned burger joint or mechanics garage. But thanks to your compassionate federal government who requires you to see everyone without payment: not in the ER. But here's the best part: his complaint letter matters as much to administration as anyone else's. He's a valued customer, and it's your job to "satisfy" him. This guy's vote on your hospital's Press Gainey survey counts as much as the church lady next door. If this happens at your Dermatologist office they call the Police. If this happens at your local burger joint, they call the Police. The Police arrive and they take him to the local ED for a psych eval! I'm laughing out loud while I write it, but it's 100% true. As a doctor, you're held to the highest ethical standards and at the same time it's demanded that you "satisfy" your "customers" who are allowed to make unreasonable demands and in many cases may commit actual crimes in the ED (abuse/assault staff or attempt to obtain narcotics illegally). In many cases the patients you're expected to "highly satisfy" or "somewhat satisfy" may demand that you commit a crime (prescribe them drugs you know they'll abuse or sell) all at the same time you're trying to take care of a few actual sick people. It's pure insanity, and it will continue as long as we all allow it to.

It absolutely blows my mind that so many people here and in actual medical practice get so bent out of shape about the customer service aspect of emergency medicine.

The way I go into things is I take care of my patients the way I'd expect another physician to take care of my family or loved ones if they were in the ED...both medically and as a human being. If it means me getting a blanket or a glass of ice water, and taking an extra 10 seconds out of my day to do that, then I guess I'm guilty of selling out.

Greenbbs,

You're right, we should treat people with dignity. However, if you've been doing this as long as me, surely you've bent over backwards and had it blow up in your face more than once. We're not talking about getting blankets or glasses of water for your loved ones; we're talking about difficult ER patients. It's not the same. I'm betting your family and your loved one's would never act as outrageous and ungrateful as the average "difficult ER patient". I think most of us go through stages in this game. As a medical student you're "a human being", as you say. Then you get jaded and develop a thick skin and the temptation is to lose your compassion and you let everything bounce off your thick elephant skin. At what point do you become "human" again and say enough is enough? If none of this has made you jaded, you're my hero.

When we get deadlocked, I'm working, and there is a long wait, I go out every 2 hours to the waiting and make "the annoucement.":

"Good Evening Ladies and Gentleman. I'm Dr. ______, the attending physician in the back where the ambulances keep coming in. I would like to apologize for your wait, and I know that your time and health are important. Please know that we are doing the best we can to get you back as quickly as possible, and we hope to address all of your concerns when you do. I personally thank you for your patience and hope that you will continue to stay until you have been seen. I apologize again for your delay."

Since I have started making this 15 second announcement, patients have been coming back happy, and are even thanking me for making that announcement. The nurses love it too because the patients are angry. This have also helped my PG scores because people identify me as their "doctor" before I have even seen them. The best part - I don't have to apologize to everyone when I see them!

NinerNiner999,

You also, are my hero. I want to work every shift with you. Med students and residents, you should model yourself after guys like this. However, how many times you can stomach reciting this phrase, how many times per shift, for how many months or years, I don't know. Niner, my guess is you'll end up as an ED director someday if you're not already.
 
Last edited:
Birdstrike:

There's a ton of things that have made me jaded. I just do my best to not let it affect me when I'm working. Don't get me wrong....I hate the difficult patients just as much as everyone else in the world....but there's a time and a place to be jaded, and at work is definitely not that place.
 
NinerNiner999,

You also, are my hero. I want to work every shift with you. Med students and residents, you should model yourself after guys like this. However, how many times you can stomach reciting this phrase, how many times per shift, for how many months or years, I don’t know. Niner, my guess is you'll end up as an ED director someday if you're not already.

LOL Birdstrike - While I do detect a -hint- of sarcasm, I think its funny that yes, I'm a director. We all despise difficult patients, but I think we also contribute to making some patients more difficult than they would otherwise be. Further, difficult patients easily produce difficult staff and physicians, which under the stress of our work can create a very difficult day. I'm by no means throwing out my anecdote to be used as a "model" but rather as a constructive contribution to the OP's post. At the end of the day, whatever we as physicians can individually tolerate to make the day go by without injury or harm is what works. I try to be proactive in keeping the water flowing smoothly...
 
LOL Birdstrike - While I do detect a -hint- of sarcasm, I think its funny that yes, I'm a director. We all despise difficult patients, but I think we also contribute to making some patients more difficult than they would otherwise be. Further, difficult patients easily produce difficult staff and physicians, which under the stress of our work can create a very difficult day. I'm by no means throwing out my anecdote to be used as a "model" but rather as a constructive contribution to the OP's post. At the end of the day, whatever we as physicians can individually tolerate to make the day go by without injury or harm is what works. I try to be proactive in keeping the water flowing smoothly...

Niner,

Could you please share with the medical students and residents on this forum why you became an ED director?
 
Niner,

Could you please share with the medical students and residents on this forum why you became an ED director?

Gladly - I enjoy working with people, accomplishing goals, and furthering the progress of my department in a specialty designed to give health care to the most needy of my community. I also enjoy managing multiple teams towards a common goal. I don't however, like to feed trolls.
 
Gladly - I enjoy working with people, accomplishing goals, and furthering the progress of my department in a specialty designed to give health care to the most needy of my community. I also enjoy managing multiple teams towards a common goal. I don't however, like to feed trolls.

Niner,

Sorry. I didn't mean to be a d--- or a "troll" by that post. If you were offended, I apologize.
 
Gladly - I enjoy working with people, accomplishing goals, and furthering the progress of my department in a specialty designed to give health care to the most needy of my community. I also enjoy managing multiple teams towards a common goal. I don't however, like to feed trolls.

Dude - an honest and straightforward question as to why you wanted to be a director is not trolling.
 
Dude - an honest and straightforward question as to why you wanted to be a director is not trolling.

the issue was the wording. instead of asking "why did you want to become an ED Director", the question was asked in a rather strange way "why don't you explain to everyone else why you wanted to be an ED Director for their benefit" as if it were the two of them on a stage =p. I can think of a couple cultures where that would be a normal way to ask such a question, but on the internet there's always a high index of suspicion:laugh:
 
the issue was the wording. instead of asking "why did you want to become an ED Director", the question was asked in a rather strange way "why don't you explain to everyone else why you wanted to be an ED Director for their benefit" as if it were the two of them on a stage =p. I can think of a couple cultures where that would be a normal way to ask such a question, but on the internet there's always a high index of suspicion:laugh:

Niner,

Could you please share with the medical students and residents on this forum why you became an ED director?

Maybe I'm reading it wrong.
 
Good point Apollyon, and maybe I'M reading this wrong. My apologies to Birdstrike, and I infer no sarcasm with that statement.

Being a medical director is a thankless job, and really takes a different outlook to accomplish well - I'm still working on it!. Taking care of patients is a multi-system process within the department. It requires a common desire from everyone - Doctors, Nurses, Techs, and Secretaries to work in a well-run department. This is the viewpoint that ED attending physicians see every day and anything outside of this scope is "someone else's job to fix." The good attendings are able to remain happy and keep the department on task, while finding creative ways around roadblocks that slow the flow of the department - they manage the department well.

I haven't been doing this long, but I've come to realize that my day is not impacted by the number of patients I see, but by how difficult the patients are to move out of my department. Note - I didn't even mention how difficult they are to manage and treat. Perhaps it was a selfish decision to pursue a directorship, but I believe our field is all about how to take the most chaotic heap of dead, dying, and helpless situations, control them, and then get them where they need to be. This isn't meant to imply that our patients are any of these things, but the work around them is. Anyone who has cared for 10 critical patients in a shift, with a full ICU, no beds, frustrated nurses, and a busy waiting room can compare that day to a day of seeing 30 patients with clear-cut dispositions.

This is why I found becoming a director to be a really cool thing. Hospitals are essentially a venn diagram (remember those?). Each department has a series of protocols and bylaws and rules that overlaps with each other one. The neat thing about the ED is that all of the major players in a hospital have a single place where they all overlap - The Emergency Department. Whether they want to talk about it as such or not, the ED is the only place in the hospital where fast and accurate identification and treatment of disease is made. Most of the time, its where the diagnosis is made. When we admit patients to services, our workup and diagnosis starts the path of the patient's stay - our job is the most understated, but overused in medicine.

As the delivery of our healthcare system continues to evolve into whatever it is, one thing is certain - more and more patients are going to continue to use the ED as a front door, and hospitals are starting to listen. What other parts of the hospital register patients, treat them, and either keep them or send them home? The OR does, dialysis does, Radiology does, but when things go wrong, where do they send their patients? to the ED. When the internist sees a patient in their office, where do they send them for chest pain workup? The ED.

Our departments have evolved into hospitals within hospitals, and we are more reliable to our community and its physicians than any other part of the hospital. This is what drives me, and makes we want to improve things. I consider the ED to be a second chance at healthcare in the United States. When patients call their doctor, the doctor doesn't say "go to the hospital." They say "go to the ER." As a director, I'll have the ability to effect change on the entire hospital by working with the other departments to create policies, protocols, and guidelines that help us use the department more effectively and more efficiently. In the end, that makes all of our jobs easier, and when we don't "feel" busy, we don't act busy. When we don't act busy, our patients love us, and when our patients love us, everybody does, especially the hospital looking over us - which doesn't make us "feel" busy anymore. Then they cycle repeats itself.

Of course, this is a continuous work in progress, and there is always something new to change or reject. I enjoy solving problems on a systems basis, and try to view the department as my patient of sorts (cheesy, I know). There are many departments with their own agendas, revenue stream, political capital, etc, but I really do believe that over the next few years, and well into the next decade, the ED will become the single largest revenue generator for hospitals. This means the ED will have the most political capital in the coming years. I may be wrong, but I am proactive to make sure that as the department becomes more of a resource to the hospitals, the way it is run becomes more efficient and more important.

Patients come to us for many reasons. As this thread already implies - most of them don't want to be there, some of them do, but none of them want to wait. Interestingly, neither do most of the staff that works in the ED. We actually have a common goal with our patients - to make things move as smoothly and efficiently, to give (and receive) the best and safest care, and to get on with our lives and wellness. The hospitals are catching on to this, and to me, its pretty exciting to be a part of.

Of course there are many other aspects of the job that I really like too, but for the students/residents, this is the biggest reason that I decided to become a director. I may be crazy, but only time will tell...
 
Good point Apollyon, and maybe I'M reading this wrong. My apologies to Birdstrike, and I infer no sarcasm with that statement.

Being a medical director is a thankless job, and really takes a different outlook to accomplish well - I'm still working on it!. Taking care of patients is a multi-system process within the department. It requires a common desire from everyone - Doctors, Nurses, Techs, and Secretaries to work in a well-run department. This is the viewpoint that ED attending physicians see every day and anything outside of this scope is "someone else's job to fix." The good attendings are able to remain happy and keep the department on task, while finding creative ways around roadblocks that slow the flow of the department - they manage the department well.

I haven't been doing this long, but I've come to realize that my day is not impacted by the number of patients I see, but by how difficult the patients are to move out of my department. Note - I didn't even mention how difficult they are to manage and treat. Perhaps it was a selfish decision to pursue a directorship, but I believe our field is all about how to take the most chaotic heap of dead, dying, and helpless situations, control them, and then get them where they need to be. This isn't meant to imply that our patients are any of these things, but the work around them is. Anyone who has cared for 10 critical patients in a shift, with a full ICU, no beds, frustrated nurses, and a busy waiting room can compare that day to a day of seeing 30 patients with clear-cut dispositions.

This is why I found becoming a director to be a really cool thing. Hospitals are essentially a venn diagram (remember those?). Each department has a series of protocols and bylaws and rules that overlaps with each other one. The neat thing about the ED is that all of the major players in a hospital have a single place where they all overlap - The Emergency Department. Whether they want to talk about it as such or not, the ED is the only place in the hospital where fast and accurate identification and treatment of disease is made. Most of the time, its where the diagnosis is made. When we admit patients to services, our workup and diagnosis starts the path of the patient's stay - our job is the most understated, but overused in medicine.

As the delivery of our healthcare system continues to evolve into whatever it is, one thing is certain - more and more patients are going to continue to use the ED as a front door, and hospitals are starting to listen. What other parts of the hospital register patients, treat them, and either keep them or send them home? The OR does, dialysis does, Radiology does, but when things go wrong, where do they send their patients? to the ED. When the internist sees a patient in their office, where do they send them for chest pain workup? The ED.

Our departments have evolved into hospitals within hospitals, and we are more reliable to our community and its physicians than any other part of the hospital. This is what drives me, and makes we want to improve things. I consider the ED to be a second chance at healthcare in the United States. When patients call their doctor, the doctor doesn't say "go to the hospital." They say "go to the ER." As a director, I'll have the ability to effect change on the entire hospital by working with the other departments to create policies, protocols, and guidelines that help us use the department more effectively and more efficiently. In the end, that makes all of our jobs easier, and when we don't "feel" busy, we don't act busy. When we don't act busy, our patients love us, and when our patients love us, everybody does, especially the hospital looking over us - which doesn't make us "feel" busy anymore. Then they cycle repeats itself.

Of course, this is a continuous work in progress, and there is always something new to change or reject. I enjoy solving problems on a systems basis, and try to view the department as my patient of sorts (cheesy, I know). There are many departments with their own agendas, revenue stream, political capital, etc, but I really do believe that over the next few years, and well into the next decade, the ED will become the single largest revenue generator for hospitals. This means the ED will have the most political capital in the coming years. I may be wrong, but I am proactive to make sure that as the department becomes more of a resource to the hospitals, the way it is run becomes more efficient and more important.

Patients come to us for many reasons. As this thread already implies - most of them don't want to be there, some of them do, but none of them want to wait. Interestingly, neither do most of the staff that works in the ED. We actually have a common goal with our patients - to make things move as smoothly and efficiently, to give (and receive) the best and safest care, and to get on with our lives and wellness. The hospitals are catching on to this, and to me, its pretty exciting to be a part of.

Of course there are many other aspects of the job that I really like too, but for the students/residents, this is the biggest reason that I decided to become a director. I may be crazy, but only time will tell...

Thanks for the excellent post. Sorry about my previous post which obviously was poorly worded and somewhat out of the blue. First of all, I may be entirely too burnt out at this point (partly self inflicted) to make a meaningful contribution to this forum. And if so, please take what I post with a grain of salt. My intent, really, is to point out the things I think are great about emergency medicine and the things that are not so great so as to empower future Emergency Physicians to make their lives and jobs better and make the specialty more rewarding for an entire career. Also, to let future EM physicians know what they'll be facing ahead of time. We all know the "Grey's Anatomy" version and "ER" rerun version of Emergency Medicine.

I don't envy the job of ED director. I've never been one, but I can tell its incredibly difficult and definitely thankless, as you mention. I know directors are pulled in all directions with the "pit docs" wanting things done one way, the nurses wanting things another way, the "customers" wanting it another way and the hospital CEO wanting things done entirely differently. It took me a long time to realize, and was a somewhat bitter pill to swallow, that the duties of the ED director was much greater than to simply represent the docs in the ED group. I guess my point was that what motivates an ED director consists of much more than what's "best for the ED doctors". And it should be about more than what's best for the ED docs. Some directors work lots of shifts in the ED, some work 1 or 2 per month, or none. Some are "elected" by the ED docs, others are hand picked by the hospital CEO. Some are paid by the hospital, some are paid by the ED physician group. Ultimately, these factors do matter, and do affect how the ED runs. This as you mention, will affect the "pain factor" that an ED doc feels at work each day.

We all have self serving factors, along with more noble goals, that lead us to make our career choices. That wasn't the point. I just happen to be in a very frustrating situation where it has become entirely clear that the way the ED physicians think things should be run means nothing. How the hospital CEO, and the CEO's boss, and his "bosses boss" want things run, is everything. Profits are put above patient care and safety, despite what the "corporate pamphlets" and "perfect metrics" show (and trust me, I love "profits" as much as anyone else). Invariably this means working harder, and less efficiently for less money, and in many cases means worse patient care and dangerous conditions simply to "increase profits" and make the billboard wait time say a certain number so that more patients can pile in to an overwhelmed ED that's being made more and more inefficient by the very people who keep pounding us to "go faster" and "increase efficiency". Its obvious that I'm endlessly frustrated, but I bet I'm not the only one. I know its "reality" and probably will "only get worse". Perhaps its more appropriate for a thread entitled "Emergency Department Politics" if there isn't one already. All of this political nonsense is stuff I wasn't taught in residency and had to learn the hard way. The end result for me, is that I've been in hospitals that are chronically understaffed, and have been constantly pushed to work more hours than I want, while the hours themselves become increasingly more painful, for reasons that have nothing to do with my choice, what's best for my quality of life, or for the benefit of my family. Its all about someone "above me" trying to accomplish some other goal, some of which are patient care centered, but much of which has everything to do with money, money and money. There are some things we can do as Emergency Physicians to gain more control over these factors and become more independent of them. I've listed these in other posts.

So, as an ED director, if you're making your department run better, making care for patients better, making money for the hospital, all the while increasing the job satisfaction of the physicians in your department, you're doing a great job, and I commend you. Its not an easy thing to do.
 
Top