difficult choice

[musicsung3]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here, and I'm in a difficult position. My childhood dream was to be an optometrist (please don't judge, I had good reasons), I shadowed OD's and never really saw any negatives involved with it. I just got accepted to the optometry school of my choice but now I'm having second thoughts because there are new optometry schools opening up and existing schools are expanding their class sizes. The retail stores and new technologies are making eye exams quicker, so getting patients is becoming very difficult. I've seen optometry practices close down because of a lack of patents.

I have been working one on one with patients for the past two years, I really enjoy it. I can get patient interaction as a OD, MD, or DO, so that doesn't really matter. I want be sure that I'll find a descent job after a 4-year professional school, no matter how much more hectic the life of a medical doctor is than an optometrist (I'll just give up the hopes of having kids someday..jk). I think medicine might be a great choice, because there isn't a real oversupply of MD's or DO's. I feel really stupid for not going for it in my junior year of undergrad, that's when I applied for optometry. Now I'm a senior, I can either start optometry school next August or I can apply for medical schools and see if I have a shot.

Without reviewing any of the subjects, I took the Princeton practice test tonight and got B9 P9 V5. I know I can improve the science scores very easily, but is it possible to improve the verbal score when it's so low? Do you guys think I should try for medical schools even though I haven't joined any pre-medical clubs, shadowed a MD (but i work for one), or volunteered yet. I'll have about 6 credit hours of research under my belt. I do have 2 years of clinical experience. my cGPA is 3.61, it will probably reach 3.63 by next semester. my sGPA is probably about the same, maybe higher.

It'll cost me $500 to hold a seat until august and another 30K to go through one year of optometry school. What MCAT score would grantee me a spot at either a MD or DO school, so I would be able to save the 30K?

Thanks for your time.

p.s. I wasn't sure if this belongs in "what are my chances" because the issue is more than just that.

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[Global Warming]

Hi everyone,

This is my first post here, and I'm in a difficult position. My childhood dream was to be an optometrist (please don't judge, I had good reasons), I shadowed OD's and never really saw any negatives involved with it. I just got accepted to the optometry school of my choice but now I'm having second thoughts because there are new optometry schools opening up and existing schools are expanding their class sizes. The retail stores and new technologies are making eye exams quicker, so getting patients is becoming very difficult. I've seen optometry practices close down because of a lack of patents.

I have been working one on one with patients for the past two years, I really enjoy it. I can get patient interaction as a OD, MD, or DO, so that doesn't really matter. I want be sure that I'll find a descent job after a 4-year professional school, no matter how much more hectic the life of a medical doctor is than an optometrist (I'll just give up the hopes of having kids someday..jk). I think medicine might be a great choice, because there isn't a real oversupply of MD's or DO's. I feel really stupid for not going for it in my junior year of undergrad, that's when I applied for optometry. Now I'm a senior, I can either start optometry school next August or I can apply for medical schools and see if I have a shot.

Without reviewing any of the subjects, I took the Princeton practice test tonight and got B9 P9 V5. I know I can improve the science scores very easily, but is it possible to improve the verbal score when it's so low? Do you guys think I should try for medical schools even though I haven't joined any pre-medical clubs, shadowed a MD (but i work for one), or volunteered yet. I'll have about 6 credit hours of research under my belt. I do have 2 years of clinical experience. my cGPA is 3.61, it will probably reach 3.63 by next semester. my sGPA is probably about the same, maybe higher.

It'll cost me $500 to hold a seat until august and another 30K to go through one year of optometry school. What MCAT score would grantee me a spot at either a MD or DO school, so I would be able to save the 30K?

Thanks for your time.

p.s. I wasn't sure if this belongs in "what are my chances" because the issue is more than just that.

The first test means little to nothing. Don't base your entire future on this one practice test. Verbal is hard, but improvement is always made w/ time and practice.

 

[musicsung3]

The first test means little to nothing. Don't base your entire future on this one practice test. Verbal is hard, but improvement is always made w/ time and practice.

Thanks Global Warming. Should I practice reading science journals and science books, or can i just practice reading anything?

 

[mybubbles14]

Despite what some believe, you can bring up your verbal score considerably. I would suggest EK 101 verbal passages. You need to identify what is causing your score to be low ie. timing or just falling for "attractive" wrong answers. After you take the practice tests it's really helpful to go over them if you are struggling. Make sure you understand why questions are right or wrong. If you do this diligently I think your score will go up. I agree that you shouldn't base anything off of a diagnostic or "first try" test. I ended up scoring 9 points higher on my actual exam than my diagnostic with kaplan. I would aim for 30+ to be competitive...however ~31 is the average of accepted students which means people score lower and people score much higher. It's not death to have a 29 (or slightly lower). There are ppl who get in with sub 30s but obviously you want to aim for higher.

when would you be looking at applying?

 

[Catalystik]

Median stats for those accepted to allopathic med schools are GPA 3.65 and MCAT 31, and for DO med schools, 3.45/25.5. You have research, clinical experience, and your job provides for "shadowing" if you are the physician's presence a lot while he/she works. I'd still suggest a day each with two other types of physicians. Leadership and teaching are two other types of experiences valued in the med school application process. What you haven't mentioned that is critical, is community sevice. Surely, you have something from the first three years of college? Get that going ASAP, as its lack would be the most likely to prevent your success in the next application cycle if you have a good MCAT score. There is no score that guarantees you a spot in med school. Even those with spectacular stats are turned away if they have a flawed Personal Statement, poor Letters of Recommendation, inadequate ECs, and poor interview skills.

Check out SDN's MCAT Discussions Forum, where you'll see lots of posts about studying successfully for the MCAT, including strategies for raising Verbal.

 

[Isoprop]

I hope you (OP) are not basing your decision on what's posted on SDN. Have you talked to ODs in the area you hope to find work? What are THEY saying?

OD scope of practice is expanding as far as I see it. I believe Kansas(not sure?) allows ODs to practice surgery now? Writing more scripts? A few of my MD friends considering opthal are complaining about ODs encroaching on their practice.

I believe you will see a shift in the way ODs practice but you won't see ODs go out of business altogether. You can subspecialize (the big trend nowadays) and find a niche in the market. In big cities and desirable locations, it will always be hard to find work. This isn't limited to ODs but other health professions as well (pharm, dentists, and yes, even MD/DO).

The market is always fluctuating. Look at the long-term outlook and not just what the current economic situation is. At the end of the day, you need to do something you like despite how much money you make. Because it may be equally likely that you have a hard time finding work as an MD/DO (check out what the pathology forums are saying) than as a OD. I'm not saying IGNORE economics altogether, but don't switch something you seem to LOVE doing just because the current market situation is not ideal.

 

[NNukibw77]

do not be discouraged by that MCAT. i got a 22 (8-8-7) on my first kaplan diagnostic (albeit i had NO IDEA what to expect and left questions blank that i wasn't sure of because i wanted to see what i needed to study) . 40 on the real deal (14-13-13).

 

[Evergrey]

Yeah diagnostics aren't very helpful! If you study hard for the MCAT, are intelligent (intelligent in the way that allows you to be successful at grades), and a good test-taker, there's no reason to think that you shouldn't be able to get over a 30 on your MCAT. My own score went up 14 points from diagnostic to real thing (and I didn't perform at top capacity due to some extraneous circumstances), so it's probable to have at least a 10 point improvement (though I've heard that it's fairly rare to go up more than 20).

 

[MegaProjectile]

You can improve your verbal but you have to put some real work into it. The real MCAT is more like Kaplan not EK anymore. I took the MCAT this summer and the passages were longer than AAMC or EK but the same as Kaplan. The questions also required fishing for answers in the passage which is Kaplanesque. Get your hands on any verbal practice tests you can get but pay attention to Kaplan towards the end.Also get the New Yorker; Try quickly reading the articles while thinking of the main idea. It helped me a lot since the articles are similar to those found on real MCAT.


OD market is completely saturated in desirable locations. The job market is hard for new graduates and it will continue to be that way until the Optometry gods start reducing class sizes or closing down schools. MD/DO is your best bet. If your passion is for the eyes you can specialize in ophthalmology(even that industry is saturated too but at least it has greater stabililty and autonomy).

 

[apumic]

Despite what some believe, you can bring up your verbal score considerably. I would suggest EK 101 verbal passages.

Good advice. EK Verbal is great. I think the VR improvement statement needs some clarification; however. What is known about verbal tests is that once existing potential is reached, a change in score is highly unlikely. That is, as long as you are not used to the test itself (i.e., unaccustomed to the types of questions and passages, etc.), your score will be artificially low. However, once you have gotten past this, further studying is unlikely to produce a significant change in performance. This is in contrast to the BS and PS scores, where learning content is helpful. Verbal testing is considered by psychometricians to be the most valid and reliable of the common testing methods for admissions tests.

 

[bravofleet4]

Just know what you're getting yourself into. Medical students fall into massive debt and there's also residency after the 4 years of med school, so you can take on another 3-5 years there. It's a long, grueling process and you won't be making full pay until after that. Chances are good that you will have to move out of state to get your education. I'm not saying that you shouldn't but it is a monumental decision you're making. I don't know anything about the outlook for optometrists but it sounds like you're looking at specific factors like job opportunity and pay. After the health plan gets passed, who knows what medicine will look like in 5-10 years?

 

[ThaliaNox]

One bird in the hand is worth three in the bush. You have an acceptance to an optometry school, and you're willing to give up your childhood dream for the possibility of medical school? Remember to consider that if you turn down this acceptance it is unlikely you'll get in again if you change your mind or don't get into medical school.

 

[FIREitUP]

i agree with the previous post. go to optometry school, medicine is not as glorious as one would expect.

 

[futureboy]

I agree with the others. If you love optometry, which it is obvious you do, you should go to optometry school. Don't worry too much about the job market--if you are good at what you do, you will find work.

 

[FIREitUP]

I agree with the others. If you love optometry, which it is obvious you do, you should go to optometry school. Don't worry too much about the job market--if you are good at what you do, you will find work.

my best friends father is an optometrist and he is doing well for himself. you just need to love what you do, and hopefully everything will fall into place. being a good businessman can't hurt, either.

 

[musicsung3]

Despite what some believe, you can bring up your verbal score considerably. I would suggest EK 101 verbal passages. You need to identify what is causing your score to be low ie. timing or just falling for "attractive" wrong answers. After you take the practice tests it's really helpful to go over them if you are struggling. Make sure you understand why questions are right or wrong. If you do this diligently I think your score will go up. I agree that you shouldn't base anything off of a diagnostic or "first try" test. I ended up scoring 9 points higher on my actual exam than my diagnostic with kaplan. I would aim for 30+ to be competitive...however ~31 is the average of accepted students which means people score lower and people score much higher. It's not death to have a 29 (or slightly lower). There are ppl who get in with sub 30s but obviously you want to aim for higher.

when would you be looking at applying?

Thank you guys for all the helpful responses.

mybubbles14, I am thinking about taking the exam on June 17 and finishing my applications by the results come out (the end of July at the latest, for both MD and DO). I won't be able to take any prep courses, I'm planning on just getting books and studying on my own, I'll be getting old kaplan books from a friend and the examcrackers book you mentioned, 2008 edition should be ok?...Also, I'm planning on buying practice exams from either AAMC or Gold Standard, which is better?

I am planning on volunteering as soon as I can find a place to volunteer. Would it count at all if I start after I finish applying? Would I be able to add that in the amcas site later on?

As far as giving up on optometry I appreciate all the concern but it doesn't really bother me emotionally. The well-off optometrist I shadowed had started earlier, when they had better opportunities to get established. I also got the feeling that the admissions people were trying a little too hard to sell the career to the interviewees. A lot of the education consists of learning to use equipment. At America's Best, a lot of that equipment is used by people without an OD degree, this makes the education seem flimsy to me. I would love to learn more about the whole body, I loved biology classes. You learn a lot of garbage you'll never have to use, even if you can find a job at a clinic (they teach you to cut lenses to fit frames!).

Selling glasses and contacts used to be a big part of the optometry business, with those things available for cheaper online or retail chains, it's very difficult to start and keep a private practice. I read the pathology forum, it's sad but at least the MD degree can lead to better paths if they choose to peruse something else. I might be wrong about optometry, but hopefully I'm right to think that there are a lot of opportunities involved with a medical degree.

Getting accepted to any professional school is very difficult, so I feel lucky to have the acceptance. I'm going to do my best to hold on to the optometry acceptance for as long as I can. Fife of my good friends were unable to get into medical schools this year so far, so I am as scared and humble about this as anyone gets...definitely not taking this decision lightly.

Thanks again...

 

[Catalystik]

I am planning on volunteering as soon as I can find a place to volunteer. Would it count at all if I start after I finish applying? Would I be able to add that in the amcas site later on?

No, it won't help you if it isn't on your Primary application and once you submit, you can't update that part of the application. When your application is "scored" by a med school for the elements they want to see, if you have none of an essential activity and your score is too low, you go in the reject pile, from which there is no recourse.

So, even if it's only 2 hours a week, or four hours every other week, find the time to do something altruistic ASAP. As it is, you'll only have five months of that activity on your application, which is sparse. After you submit, continue the activity. After the fall term you can update schools about your added activities by direct letter to the school (which may help, if your file is still under consideration).

 

[JackADeli]

...My childhood dream was to be an optometrist ...I shadowed OD's and never really saw any negatives involved with it. I just got accepted to the optometry school of my choice...

...I want be sure that I'll find a descent job after a 4-year professional school...

...What MCAT score would grantee me a spot at either a MD or DO school...

Just know what you're getting yourself into. Medical students fall into massive debt and there's also residency after the 4 years of med school, so you can take on another 3-5 years there. It's a long, grueling process ...Chances are good that you will have to move out of state to get your education...

One bird in the hand is worth three in the bush. You have an acceptance to an optometry school, and you're willing to give up your childhood dream for the possibility of...

...If you love optometry, which it is obvious you do, you should go to optometry school. ...if you are good at what you do, you will find work.

Just a few things....

1. Medical school will NOT assure that you will "find a decent job after a 4-year professional school". Your thought process is flawed. You need guidance.

2. There is NO MCAT score that will "guarantee" admissions/a spot.... Sorry, those are the facts. Again, your thought process is flawed.

For whatever reason, you have gotten cold feet. It happens at the alter and it happens in professional decisions. You are now distracted from your "childhood dream". Worse, it sounds like it was not just a childhood dream but lifelong goal you have worked hard to reach. You are now considering abandoning all of that for a field you clearly do not understand. You are considering the idea that what you have loved can simply be replaced by whatever job is available as a physician.... You are making a big mistake and are unfortunately distracted from good guidance.... With just a little searching, you can find folks that had lifelong dreams to be physicians, found their love in primary care during clinical rotations and then somehow get distracted and end up in GSurgery miserable..... For example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=689247
or find something just isn't for them...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=684732
or the lack of future guarantees
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=681809

Please, do your self a favor (and a favor for those that have worked towards being a physician) go and be the best optometrist you can.... fulfill your dream and do not block others from theirs.

 

[coolguy111]

Please, do your self a favor (and a favor for those that have worked towards being a physician) go and be the best optometrist you can.... fulfill your dream and do not block others from theirs.

Haha, how is he blocking others from fulfilling their dreams???

 

[JackADeli]

Haha, how is he blocking others from fulfilling their dreams???

Think about it a little harder....

 

[musicsung3]

Thank you for your response Catalystik, I think I'll go back to volunteering at the local food bank as soon as possible, I used to volunteer there quite often in high school. Do the leadership roles and volunteering from high school count towards medical school applications at all?

Just a few things....

1. Medical school will NOT assure that you will "find a decent job after a 4-year professional school". Your thought process is flawed. You need guidance.

2. There is NO MCAT score that will "guarantee" admissions/a spot.... Sorry, those are the facts. Again, your thought process is flawed.

For whatever reason, you have gotten cold feet. It happens at the alter and it happens in professional decisions. You are now distracted from your "childhood dream". Worse, it sounds like it was not just a childhood dream but lifelong goal you have worked hard to reach. You are now considering abandoning all of that for a field you clearly do not understand. You are considering the idea that what you have loved can simply be replaced by whatever job is available as a physician.... You are making a big mistake and are unfortunately distracted from good guidance.... With just a little searching, you can find folks that had lifelong dreams to be physicians, found their love in primary care during clinical rotations and then somehow get distracted and end up in GSurgery miserable..... For example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=689247
or find something just isn't for them...
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=684732
or the lack of future guarantees
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=681809

Please, do your self a favor (and a favor for those that have worked towards being a physician) go and be the best optometrist you can.... fulfill your dream and do not block others from theirs.

The following quote comes from the third link you provided.

Even without an insurance expansion, the American Medical Association estimates the country will be short 85,000 doctors in primary care, cardiology, oncology and general surgery by 2020.

I'm going for internal medicine, I wouldn't say finding a descent job will be all that difficult. A search for job spots in optometry provides some part time spots and spots out of my current state, there are loads of internists' positions open. My boss has to drive for hours to provide care to people in more rural areas in my state, they don't have a lot of the specialists available.

Median annual wages of salaried optometrists were $96,320 in May 2008... In 2008, physicians practicing primary care had total median annual compensation of $186,044

For an extra 3 years of internship and residency, the result seems worth it, considering the education costs about the same for both schools. I'm getting cold feet, and I know there are no gurantees I'll get into med school, but I'd rather take a risk now than spend my whole life suffering for making the wrong choice.

I appreciate your concern for all the applicants and me...but one more aplicant with below average stats won't hurt you guys that much

 

[coolguy111]

Think about it a little harder....

Haha trust me, one guy who decides to switch to an MD route isn't going to have a significant effects and isn't going to prevent others from becoming a doctor. You don't know his exact stats, EC's, and what he'll be competing against in the coming years... haha

 

[musicsung3]

One more question, should I mention that I had applied to and been admitted to optometry school in my personal statement? Would mentioning optometry be a red flag? It did make me want to get into a career with patient interaction early on in life, but I had other positive medical experiences later in life. I won't make it a cliche "i wanted this since i was a kid" story, but the whole optometry school thing was so resent, it might come up in trying to explain why I applied a year late anyway. Thanks in advance.

 

[Catalystik]

Thank you for your response Catalystik, I think I'll go back to volunteering at the local food bank as soon as possible, I used to volunteer there quite often in high school. Do the leadership roles and volunteering from high school count towards medical school applications at all?

High school experiences are not considered unless you continued the activity into the college years. So if you go back to the food bank, you can include the hours from HS.

What was your leadership experience, and is it something you can resume?

 

[Catalystik]

One more question, should I mention that I had applied to and been admitted to optometry school in my personal statement? Would mentioning optometry be a red flag? It did make me want to get into a career with patient interaction early on in life, but I had other positive medical experiences later in life. I won't make it a cliche "i wanted this since i was a kid" story, but the whole optometry school thing was so resent, it might come up in trying to explain why I applied a year late anyway. Thanks in advance.

Just my opinion: I wouldn't mention that you applied and got accepted to Optometry school, but that you explored optometry as an option (like shadowing the OD) and considered the career strongly, but then had other experiences that drew you to medicine is fine to say.

 

[JackADeli]

...I'm going for internal medicine, I wouldn't say finding a descent job will be all that difficult...

...For an extra 3 years of internship and residency, the result seems worth it, considering the education costs about the same for both schools. I'm getting cold feet, and I know there are no gurantees I'll get into med school...

I appreciate what you are saying... However, you are going for medical school, NOT internal medicine. Folks need to understand and appreciate this.

You have limited understanding of the path or realities of obtaining a career in medicine. You have yet to do a clinical rotation... You have looked at median salaries and length of residencies and while focusing your efforts up to this point on OpTom, you have arrived at a career in IM.

There is absolutely NO guarantee of what IM or any other specialty or reimbursement will look like. The same as determining Optom will be x, y, or z at the conclusion of said schooling. You are comparing salaries and deciding, "it won't be too big a deal to tack on 4 yrs med and 3-4 yrs residency (not to mention $150k-200+k in debt)"....

...The rush to medicine is a poorly thought out venture for MOST premeds who are caught in ...misplaced personal ideals of "success". ...perpetuate the frustration, angst and lack of fulfilment that comes with having sacrificed a very crucial period of one's life to chase some foolish dream and having to face the uncertainties of the future of medicine...

If you WANT to be a physician, you need to do a little more leg work beyond a forum. You need to find some physicians and start talking to them. You need to find a guidance counselor. You need to get some experience at a physician clinic and/or hospital. You need to wipe the fog off your glasses so you can actually get a clear view of reality.

Look at some additional links:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=9064033#post9064033
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=690411

JAD

 

[musicsung3]

Just my opinion: I wouldn't mention that you applied and got accepted to Optometry school, but that you explored optometry as an option (like shadowing the OD) and considered the career strongly, but then had other experiences that drew you to medicine is fine to say.

That sounds like a great idea Catalystik, thanks once again.

Jackadeli, I have yet to do a clenical rotation, my thought process is crearly flawed

 

[FloatOn]

One bird in the hand is worth three in the bush. You have an acceptance to an optometry school, and you're willing to give up your childhood dream for the possibility of medical school? Remember to consider that if you turn down this acceptance it is unlikely you'll get in again if you change your mind or don't get into medical school.

Agreed. First of all, I think the real question that you should be considering is if you want to be a medical doctor or an optometrist, not MCAT prep materials and so on. That comes after you've decided. If you didn't have an OD school acceptance already, I would say volunteer, shadow, and find if if the MD/DO path is for you, but you don't have that luxury right now. As thoroughly and quickly as possible, you should think about your long-term goals and what you see yourself down years from now. Most of all, be comfortable and happy with your decision. Good luck!

 

[mybubbles14]

Thank you guys for all the helpful responses.

mybubbles14, I am thinking about taking the exam on June 17 and finishing my applications by the results come out (the end of July at the latest, for both MD and DO). I won't be able to take any prep courses, I'm planning on just getting books and studying on my own, I'll be getting old kaplan books from a friend and the examcrackers book you mentioned, 2008 edition should be ok?...Also, I'm planning on buying practice exams from either AAMC or Gold Standard, which is better?

I am planning on volunteering as soon as I can find a place to volunteer. Would it count at all if I start after I finish applying? Would I be able to add that in the amcas site later on?

As far as giving up on optometry I appreciate all the concern but it doesn't really bother me emotionally. The well-off optometrist I shadowed had started earlier, when they had better opportunities to get established. I also got the feeling that the admissions people were trying a little too hard to sell the career to the interviewees. A lot of the education consists of learning to use equipment. At America's Best, a lot of that equipment is used by people without an OD degree, this makes the education seem flimsy to me. I would love to learn more about the whole body, I loved biology classes. You learn a lot of garbage you'll never have to use, even if you can find a job at a clinic (they teach you to cut lenses to fit frames!).

Selling glasses and contacts used to be a big part of the optometry business, with those things available for cheaper online or retail chains, it's very difficult to start and keep a private practice. I read the pathology forum, it's sad but at least the MD degree can lead to better paths if they choose to peruse something else. I might be wrong about optometry, but hopefully I'm right to think that there are a lot of opportunities involved with a medical degree.

Getting accepted to any professional school is very difficult, so I feel lucky to have the acceptance. I'm going to do my best to hold on to the optometry acceptance for as long as I can. Fife of my good friends were unable to get into medical schools this year so far, so I am as scared and humble about this as anyone gets...definitely not taking this decision lightly.

Thanks again...

Yeah the 2008 version is the one with the most recent verbal section format. I found studying on my own to be more beneficial personally. Going to class 6 hours a week w/ a not so great teacher was just wasting 6 hours that I could have been seriously studying. You just have to be disciplined about it. Make sure that you make some kind of study plan and allow enough time to take plenty of practice exams once you are finished with the material. Good luck to you!