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Digital cameras

Discussion in 'Ophthalmology: Eye Physicians & Surgeons' started by Oftalmologo, Mar 22, 2004.

  1. Oftalmologo

    Oftalmologo Junior Member
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    I am currently shopping for a digital camera and I remember reading some recommendations on this forum, but have no idea where. I am strongly considering the Canon S400 elph, but I have a couple of questions:

    The S400 does not have manual focus, will this present a problem for close-up/macro shots of the eye?

    Is it possible to take pictures through the slit lamp microscope, and if so how?

    Any other recommended cameras? I would like it small enough to carry conveniently.

    Thanks for the help!
     
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  3. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    I recommend the S400 or S230. Although there is no manual focus, you can force it to use center focus. Anything in the center will be in focus. All the photos I present in this forum are with the S230.

    You will find a little more info here:

    http://webeye.ophth.uiowa.edu/eyeforum/digital.htm
     
  4. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    hey,

    u should get the canon powershot a70 (or a75 in a couple of weeks) for around $250 at dell.com or buy.com. it's a 3mp camera w/ great macro shots, manual controls (lacking in the elph series). it's not as compact as the s-series cameras but it uses 4 aa's batteries so u don't have to worry about running out of power. also, the a-series cameras have complete manual controls. when u're taking closeups, click on the macro icon twice to trigger the manual focus. make sure u're on the P mode and don't use the aritificial intelligence focus thing...just use central focus. also, turn off the AF-assist beam. it focuses from 5+ cm. (i haven't tried taking it using any optho equipement...just personal experience w/ regular macro shots).
     
  5. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    I advise against using AA's as the power source. You'll find that the camera is heavy and runs out of juice often. My LiON battery on my Canon S230 is good for over 100 shots and requires about 2 hours to charge. I have it with me all the time and never run out of power.
     
  6. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    on standard alkalines, it gets 200+ shots. w/ rechargeable nimh batteries, i get around 300 shots easily w/ flash. i could leave the batteries in camera for a couple of weeks and it still works....hehe. u can also record video at 640x480 .

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canona70/page15.asp

    for battery tests, check this out:

    an s400 gets around 230 shots, an s330 gets 185, and the a70 gets a whopping 515 shots.

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canona70/page9.asp

    also, if u have big hands, it's a bit easier to hold the a70. don't get the a80, it's not worth featuers/price. the a75 that's coming out is nearly identical to the a70 that's being discouninued. the a75 has an extra print function.
     
  7. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    That's good. I didn't realize the AA's last that long in the Canon. The older models drained the juice quickly.

    AA's are still heavier than the compact LiON! ;)
     
  8. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    Yogi,

    Take a few slit lamp photos with your camera and post them here. I would love to see the quality.
     
  9. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    i'm just an MS1 so that won't be happening for a while...hehe.


    i just took a look at your powerpoint presentation and it looks pretty cool.

    some random comments:



    1) megapixels isn't the only determine of resolution/a clear picture. A bigger sized CCD (the image capture device) will generally give u a better looking picture at the same megapixel. (i.e. the a70's ccd is 1/2.7" while the s400's is 1/1.8" (s400 is better).

    2) if u have a memory card reader, i'd suggest getting a program called "PC Inspector Smart recovery". It's freeware and lets u recover accidently deleted images/accidental erase/format from your various memory cards. works great. u can find it at download.com

    3) regarding manual focus, i think your technique of moving the camera back and forth works pretty well. on my a60 (a 2mp version of the a70), u can choose to keep the camera in place while moving the focus button so both gets about the same result. the only time when the manual focus is a clear winner is if u're taking artistics shots or something and wanted to manually focus on an object that wasn't at the center of the frame and which u didn't want the AI Autofocus to choose.

    4) to original poster.....i think the s400 would be a great purchase if size is an issue. (it also has a better sensor than the a70).
     
  10. GlaucomaMD

    GlaucomaMD GlaucomaMD
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    I have the Canon S400 and love it!

    Great battery-life.

    Macro Shot is very good actually.

    You can't beat the size... You can't take great photos with the other cameras if you don't have it on you...

    I know there are other good digital cameras but I researched for a while and got a great deal on my S400.
     
  11. BeefyRedEye

    BeefyRedEye Member
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    I have taken over 5000 shots with my Canon S400 and I love the little bugger. It takes great macro and is nice and compact in size. I would highly recommend either this camera or the newly released S500 (anyone want to buy my S400 so I can upgrade? =))
     
  12. Oftalmologo

    Oftalmologo Junior Member
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    Thanks for all of your input, very helpful! Prices for the S400 seem great right now as the new s410 is coming out shortly. I'm sold!
     
  13. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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  14. chef

    chef Senior Member
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    i just bought the S400 from dell for $290 shipped & no tax for my gf

    it's still only $318 @ amazon.. it was $450 last yr!!!
     
  15. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    i didn't have access to a slit lamp so i used a classroom microscope and placed camera over the ocular lense to take a pix of a slide.
     

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  16. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    here's a crop at 2mp.
     

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  17. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    Awesome shot of the iris-corneal angle!

    That's so cool. :D
     
  18. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    camera deal expired. nevermind.
     
  19. Gleevec

    Gleevec Peter, those are Cheerios
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    Wow, great deal! Thanks for the link.

    Just a friendly reminder that most standard "older" non-digital cameras are rated around 3.0MP. 2MP is pretty close though, and should work well for smaller picture sizes.
     
  20. avm03

    avm03 Junior Member

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    Does anyone have any thoughts on Canon's s500 vs Sony's DSC-V1 or Sony's Sony DSC-W1. Any input is appreciated. Particulary with regards to macro mode/scope pics.
     
  21. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    If you can afford the $500 price tag, the Canon S500 is a nice camera with 5 MP and a MACRO capability at 2 inches. The Canon S500 is similar to the S400 and S410 except it is able to capture photos at 5 MP instead of 4 MP. I've used both the S400 and S230 for slit lamp photography. The optics of the S500 is similar to the S400, and I anticipate no problems with the S500 for scope pics.

    I use the Canon S230 with only 3.2 MP, but it's more than adequate for my clinical needs. At 3.2 MP and a Macro of 4 inches I'm able to capture high quality, publishable images. Most of the photographs I've used for the morning rounds presentations have been taken with the Canon S230. I know the Cybershots are nice cameras, but I haven't tried them through the biomicroscope and operating microscope oculars to capture photos.

    If you come to Iowa for residency, I have been awarded an unrestricted educational grant from Allergan for the Morning Archives project (http://webeye.ophth.uiowa.edu/eyeforum). Every Iowa resident will receive a new digital camera. Due to the cost of purchasing 15 digital cameras, I'm purchasing the Canon SD110 + 256 Meg memory card for each resident ($310 ea.). This camera is similar to the S230 but uses SD memory instead. In addition to the cameras, I'm establishing a book fund for the residents. With every presentation that is posted on the web, they will receive credit for a $100 book.

    I anticipate this to be a highly successful endeavor, and the grant may be available every year. This will be an additional incentive to come to Iowa! ;)
     
  22. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    hey, i'd advise getting the s400/s410 intead. it has better optics.

    SD110....SD is more expensive media.
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_sd110.asp


    Sensor photo detectors 3.34 million
    Sensor size 1/2.7" (5.27 x 3.96 mm)
    Macro focus range 10 cm

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_s410.asp
    S410:
    Sensor photo detectors 4.1 million
    Sensor size 1/1.8 " (7.18 x 5.32 mm)
    Macro focus range 5 cm

    S410 has bigger sensor size can get closer to the object == better macro shots.

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_s230.asp --btw, sd110 is nearly identical to s230 so it shouldn't be a problem w/ the sd110 if u've had experience w/ the s230.
     
  23. Richard_Hom

    Richard_Hom Senior Member
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    Dr. Doan,

    1. Do you remove the one of the oculars and hold the camera in place?
    2. Do you focus with the LCD screen or pre-focus and lock the slit lamp in place to photograph?


    To the forum,
    1. Any experience using the Coolpix 995 with the 25mm threaded adapter onto a Haag Streit 900?
    2. Or using the Coolpix 995 on a beam-splitter?

    Thanks,
    Richard_Hom
     
  24. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    I know the S410 and S500 are better cameras; however, the S230 works well for the clinics and slit lamp photos. Most of my rounds presentations I've posted were taken with the S230. The SD110 is the same as the S230, and I can purchase the S230 + 256 meg SD card for $300. A S410 with a 256 meg card is about $475 and a S500 with a 256 meg card is $575. This is a little more than we can afford for all 15 residents. If I continue to find grant funding, we'll get the new residents better cameras next year.
     
  25. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    You don't remove the oculars. You hold the camera in place over the eye piece. I focus with the slit lamp first and then snap the shot with the camera set on center focus.
     
  26. eye4world

    eye4world Junior Member
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    Dr Doan, Any experience with nikon coolpix or kodak easyshare digital camera ?
     
  27. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    The Coolpix is a great camera. Nikon digital cameras work well with the slit lamp too. I haven't worked with the Kodak cameras.
     
  28. eye4world

    eye4world Junior Member
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    Dr Doan , I am enclosing a link about nikon coolpix for ophthalmic photography.

    http://aios.org/ijo/index1.cfm?jid=435&show=y
     
  29. Richard_Hom

    Richard_Hom Senior Member
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    Link may be disabled. It is not functional.

    FYI,
    Richard_Hom
     
  30. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    Here's the abstract to that reference:

    Ophthalmic Photography Using a Digital Camera

    Rajesh Fogla, DNB, FRCS; Srinivas K Rao, DNB, FRCS
    Vol. 51, No.3, September 2003

    Purpose: To report the application of a digital camera for ophthalmic photography in routine clinical use.

    Methods: A digital camera (Nikon Coolpix 995) was used both for external macrophotography of the eye and ocular adnexa, and slitlamp photography of the anterior segment of the eye.

    Results: We were able to take external macrophotographs under high magnification of the eye and ocular adnexa. Slitlamp photography could be performed under diffuse, slit beam, and retroillumination. The structures of the angle, the optic disc and surrounding retina could be photographed using appropriate lenses. The attachment to the operating microscope allowed intra-operative photography. It could also be attached to the laboratory microscope to capture images of various histopathology and microbiology slides.

    Conclusions: A digital camera is a versatile instrument for ophthalmic photography. It is easy to use in routine clinical practice and provides good quality photographs.
     
  31. GeddyLee

    GeddyLee Bad-ass Guitarist
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    Not that you'd be planning to carry a big camera around, but I just got a Nikon D70 and it is awesome.....it's my first digital camera. Okay...I just wanted to brag.

    As for the point and shoot, cameras, the canon A80 is fantastic and a great bargain. Don't get too caught up on megapixels, as I doubt you'll be making huge enlargements from your pics. You can get away with 3 megapixels for quite a good deal.

    I'd get one where you could make movies. How cool would it be to make a movie of the slit lamp exam, or interesting neuro-oph findings!
     
  32. Retinamark

    Retinamark Senior Member
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    Andrew, I watched your powerpoint presentation on the Iowa website about medical photography - very impressive !! :thumbup:
    The pictures from the angio films were very good. Can you get good quality pictures using a 90D / Superfield lens at the slit lamp?
     
  33. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    The problem with slit lamp fundus photos is that you need one person to focus and another to take photos through the teaching scope. The quality of the photos aren't great because the photo is a slit view of the retina.

    The camera works great with an operating microscope. For instance, these operative photos were taken trough the eye piece during surgery:

    http://webeye.ophth.uiowa.edu/eyeforum/case13.htm
     
  34. Redhawk

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    Has anyone heard of any of the slit lamp manufacturers developing products with built in photographic equipment? Or possibly adapters for attachment to teaching scope "ports"? It seems like it would be the obvious next step.
     
  35. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    Sure:

    http://www.haag-streit.com/Files/Flyer.pdf

    http://www.scopetronix.com/mvp.htm

    The convenient thing about my technique is that clinicians can avoid purchasing expensive adapters and cameras for each of their slit lamps. In addition, it's inconvenient to take pictures of on-call or OR patients if only specific scopes have cameras.
     
  36. eye4world

    eye4world Junior Member
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    I am sorry for mistake;didnt check the link. anyways you can check it out on this link http://aios.org/ijo/past.cfm kindly select Vol. 51, No.3, September 2003 in the menu.Do check out the digital photographs.
     
  37. eye4world

    eye4world Junior Member
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    I agree with you and would like to add that a compact camera is a wonderful tool especially for resident and fellows to record what they see . It makes discussions easier and helps you to learn better in addition to this you can also refer back to your records if required.
     
  38. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    Absolutely. Grand rounds are easy and fun to present when I have thousands of clinical photos to show. :thumbup:
     
  39. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    I've updated the page regarding how to setup the Canon digital cameras for slit lamp photography. Let me know if I should add any clarifications.

    http://webeye.ophth.uiowa.edu/eyeforum/digital.htm
     
  40. ZR1

    ZR1 Member
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    I dont know if this thread is still going but the Microns actually take slightly better pictures than the elph (i have both so im not hatin on either, they are both amazing). Nikon Coolpix 4200 is comparable to the Canon S410. The nikon just ends up having a few more capture modes, a little more manual control, and its a tad lighter (u can actually tell this). It is also somewhat thinner. However, i THINK, the elph can auto adjust SLIGHTLY better to lighting conditions, however with the many manual settings on the nikon, u can overcome that (however u gotta know how to use a camera ;) ok well.thats my input.
     
  41. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    from dpreview.com,

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Nikon/nikon_cp4200.asp
    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_s410.asp


    The nikon 4200 takes macro as close as 4cm, while s410 takes it as close as 5cm (slightly worse).

    -even though s410 is smaller, 3.4 x 2.2 x 1.1 in than nikon 4200 3.5 x 2.4 x 1.5 in, the s410 is heavier at 7.6 oz vs. 6.3 oz.

    if i'm getting a compact camera, it'd be an elph cuz canons have the best color among cameras i've tried out (skin tones look much better than other cameras....especially the sony's wich tend to be under-saturated).
     
  42. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    some digicam deals: 512mb SD card for $39 after rebate at http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0000AKVJC/ref=pd_ts_p_1/104-3271958-0015114?v=glance&s=photo&n=508048

    Search amazon.com for SanDisk SDSDB-512-A10 512 MB Secure Digital Card (free ship/no tax)

    http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=82031 - 256 MB SD for $10.90 AR. (dunno bout shipping/taxes)

    256 MB CF card: $15.94 AR. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00005AC8J/qid=1095468614/br=2-2/ref=br_ts_slwth_th_2/002-3854404-1124027?v=glance&s=electronics&n=735606

    i cant' believe memory prices are so darn cheap these days. A 256 mb CF card was roughly $50 when I got one two years ago. I actually ordereed a backup 128 mb CF card the other day for my digicam since it was like $4 after rebate (deal not avail anymore at amazon).
     
  43. JR

    JR Guest

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    where? where?
     
  44. Yogi Bear

    Yogi Bear 2K Member
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    oops...sorry for not posting the link/website initially.

    You have to order it by 9/19 and submit rebate by 10/19 to get the $25 rebate to make it $39 AR. I odered it last week and it shipped couple of days later w/ the receipt saying the purchase was on the order date, not the shipping date. Thus, if you buy it today or tomorrow, it should be good deal. I also signed up for the amazon visa card to get $30 discount...so this card basically ended up being something like $40-30 = $10 for a 512 mb card...hehe. the deal for the two 256mb sd cards is very tempting...i'd prob gone for it if i didn't mind changing cards when they get full. figure a 512mb card would be useful storage for pdas.
     
  45. guttata

    guttata Member
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    buy.com has a good deal on memory cards right now

    1gb cf for $60 after rebate
    512mb cf for $30 after rebate
    256mb cf for $10 after rebate

    with free shipping...
     
  46. Redhawk

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    For anyone who's interested in getting a cheap camera for upcoming residency, Amazon has the Canon SD110 (mentioned on previous posts) for $160 while supplies last. It seems like a good deal if you're like me and don't want to spend hundreds of dollars for a camera that's able to capture high quality, publishable images. I got the camera, case and 512mb card for under $200.

    Camera
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0001G6U9I/002-8340924-3120845?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

    Belt case (if interested) for $30
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B0007L201O/002-8340924-3120845?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance
    Add the code COACHDEALNOW during checkout to save $20 off the price if buying both products.

    Viking 512MB SD card for $28 after rebate
    http://www.buy.com/prod/Viking_SD512M_512MB_Secure_Digital_Flash_Card/q/loc/15646/10335061.html
    (or 256MB for $10 after rebate)
    http://www.buy.com/prod/Viking_SD256M_Digital_Camera_Memory_PDA_memory_256MB_SD_Card_Viking/q/loc/15646/10335081.html
     
  47. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
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    AND if you buy it through my EyeRounds.org link, then EyeRounds.org (as an Amazon Associate) receives 5% to help support the development of EyeRounds material for you all, like the medical student rotation database and the ophthalmic atlas (which costs us $50/month to keep running)...

    Or if you want to support SDN, then purchase it through SDN's Amazon.com search boxes to give 5% to SDN! ;)

    http://webeye.ophth.uiowa.edu/eyeforum/photography.htm
     
  48. foo

    foo Junior Member
    10+ Year Member

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    I am interested in Optho digital imaging from a Medical Imaging Informatics point of view. The defacto standard used for diagnostic imaging (e.g. Radiology, Cardiology) is DICOM and I am aware that there exists an Opthalmology DICOM object definition.

    Are members of this forum that are interested in digital imaging also familiar with DICOM? Is there an interest in the Optho community in including Optho images in the patient's Electronic Medical Record? Is DICOM being adopted as a standard?

    Sorry if my post is a bit off-topic, but very interested in your comments. Thanks in advance.
     
  49. Andrew_Doan

    Andrew_Doan Doc, Author, Entrepreneur
    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 15+ Year Member

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    Yes, DICOM is being adopted as the standard. One company that offers this is: www.oisi.com
     
  50. GlaucomaMD

    GlaucomaMD GlaucomaMD
    10+ Year Member

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    Andrew,

    Nice article on the EyeNet. Good summary of what's been discussed on the board over the years. Probably the best $300-400 I ever spent was on my digital camera...
     
  51. 89edoctor

    89edoctor Junior Member
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    Dr Doan.

    Your powerpoint is very excellent!!

    Thanks a lot.

    I began to use nickon 4100 with a 256 mb SD card one year ago.

    Macro focus range 4cm

    No manual focus

    In fact I find that my camera can focus the object within about 2.5-3.00 cm.

    But should I change another with the macro focus range 1-2cm?
     

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