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DisabledDoctor

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I am interested in opening a discussion regarding those of us who aspire to become physicians but have disabilities. While I would include ADD and ADHD as part of this discussion I am more interested in those who have moderate to severe physical and psychological disabilities.

I have a connective tissue disorder which has caused significant damage to my eight cranial nerve. This nerve complex is responsible for balance and hearing. I have some hearing loss but I also have no sense of balance. I suffer from severe orthostatic headaches and orthostatic hypotension. I am in Social Security disability and have a handicap placard for my car. I usually have to walk with a cane to help me keep my balance.

It is very difficult for me to be vertical for long periods of time. I feel dizzy, faint and a LOT of pain. I take a handful of Rx meds every day and Excedrin Migraine, but they only take the edge off.

I had 5 surgeries in 2008 on my spine. More are planned.

I can only imagine these problems will make it difficult to be a medical student. It might be less of a problem during Basic Sciences due to the nature of classroom education, but I can imagine it would make clinicals very difficult.

Due to my dizziness and headaches it's hard to imagine being able to take a full day of classes, labs and also finding 2-4 hours in the evening to study. I have heard of "decompressed" medical schools where they let you do the first two years in three, but that might not even be enough.

Well, I'd love to hear all your opinions. It would be great for other people in this position to chime in.

Moderators, please feel free to move this thread if this is not the appropriate forum.

Thanks, everyone.
 
You know your own physical capabilities better than anyone else. I think there's no doubt that being a physician is a physically demanding job with plenty of time on your feet required in your clinical and residency years.

That said, I do know, anecdotally of a physician (resident at the time) who was diagnosed with ALS and continued to work for several years, eventually using a scooter even to get around the unit. Do your balance problems preclude use of mobility aids such as a scooter? Also, you don't say if your condition is degenerative, or subject to sudden change, which might make a difference.

If I were in your situation and passionate about medicine, I'd probably look into other ways to participate, such as research, patient advocacy, publishing literature reviews for various conditions etc.

But ultimately, only you can decide.
 
My condition is not degenerative, unlike ALS, MS, Parkinsons, etc.

The use of a scooter may not really help as my symptoms are most severe when I am vertical. This includes sitting upright, tho on my feet is worse.

I understand what you mean by not practicing clinical medicine and instead going into research, etc. However in order to do so I would need a professional credential. I have always wanted to be a physician a having an MD/DO would be my ideal.

I am interested to know how medical schools respond to students in similar situations as I. There are various federal laws (ADA and others) which protect us, so I am interested to know what can be done.
 

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My condition is not degenerative, unlike ALS, MS, Parkinsons, etc.

The use of a scooter may not really help as my symptoms are most severe when I am vertical. This includes sitting upright, tho on my feet is worse.

I understand what you mean by not practicing clinical medicine and instead going into research, etc. However in order to do so I would need a professional credential. I have always wanted to be a physician a having an MD/DO would be my ideal.

I am interested to know how medical schools respond to students in similar situations as I. There are various federal laws (ADA and others) which protect us, so I am interested to know what can be done.


Let me start by saying good for you for challenging the status quo and beginning to take the first step versus just dreaming. I am not disabled, but do have a young sone with a disability and I work every day to make sure he has the bets shot possible. I was the furthest thing from being a doctor 4 years ago when he got sick. When he did, it changed my life. He still struggles, but I am starting med school in July, and may not be able to do more for him personally, but I will help others and that will hopefully fill a void for some and heopfully someday my little guy will know he is the real strong one....

but enought about me. My point is YES. You can do it. The only time I can remember not getting something done, is when I did not think of it first, or even think it was possible. There are a lot of people willing to help you. These people are usually people that are or know someone that has a challenge similar to yours. I am sure it could be perceived as being harder for you than a student without your challenges, but you are already dealing with your challenges right? DO NOT LET IT STAND IN YOUR WAY......

There are schools such as LECOM Erie that have an Independant study pathway. Once you get done with Anatomy (approx 12 weeks) you do not have to sit in lectures. You work in packets, meet with advosrs, etc....It is great for non traditional students. there are also several schools (LECOM is one of them) that have Problem Based Learning pathways that meet in small groups, but that also do not have to sit in lecture.

Long story short, if you want it go get it. You may have to work a little harder (unfairly I think) but if you are passionate and have the credentials to get in, someone has the right fit. You just have to network like crazy to find it....plus, what's the worst thing that happens if you come up short? Can't be worse than wondering. That could eat you alive.

Best of Luck to you.....
 
that's fantastic that you want to be a physician. academically it's definitely possible! as long as you've got drive, nothing will stop you there. going through rotations might be a problem, typically you're up running around all day. I would check with your doc to see if there are meds/ortho devices that will help you with your vertical problem. as long as you can get around sitting up in a scooter for a long period of time (>12 hrs) you should be fine. if I can help, feel free to PM, good luck!
 
My condition is not degenerative, unlike ALS, MS, Parkinsons, etc.

I am interested to know how medical schools respond to students in similar situations as I. There are various federal laws (ADA and others) which protect us, so I am interested to know what can be done.

I suspect there is a legal answer to this question that you'd do better pursuing than requesting our opinions on this forum.

I worked in the public sector witn many other federal agencies for years, and know a fair amount about ADA/UFAS issues. There were certain positions, say FBI agent, that REQUIRED physical mobility -- you cannot be an FBI agent and be in a wheelchair, regardless of the public sector being quite a bit more sensitive to ADA issues than much of the rest of society.

There are certain physical requirements to enter medical school - I recall seeing these on the web sites of schools, as well as among the paperwork I signed when accepting a position as a future student. Wording was something along the lines of a student attesting that they did not have physical constraints that would prevent them from fully participating in the medical training, including mobility, use of vision, olfactory, etc. My read at the time was that my relative who has limited vision cannot become a physician because of this disability.

best of luck with deciding what to do!
 
You might find these articles helpful. I would suspect that some medical schools are much more sympathetic to the idea of admitting a medical student with significant physical challenges than others. If I were in your position, I would send a personal email to the admission office of at least 30 schools for whom you are a good fit (GPA and MCAT-wise) and then tailor your applications to those schools who give you a good response.

nontrdgsbuiucmd - the third article opens with an anecode about an M4 with retinitis pigmentosa who became legally blind in 1993 so perhaps it would not be impossible for your relative to achieve this.

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/full/279/1/79

https://services.aamc.org/publicati...1&cftoken=9B916590-D9E2-8531-A455CDFF545F78A1

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C04E1D7113BF936A15752C1A9659C8B63
 
I am interested in opening a discussion regarding those of us who aspire to become physicians but have disabilities. While I would include ADD and ADHD as part of this discussion I am more interested in those who have moderate to severe physical and psychological disabilities.

I have a connective tissue disorder which has caused significant damage to my eight cranial nerve. This nerve complex is responsible for balance and hearing. I have some hearing loss but I also have no sense of balance. I suffer from severe orthostatic headaches and orthostatic hypotension. I am in Social Security disability and have a handicap placard for my car. I usually have to walk with a cane to help me keep my balance.

It is very difficult for me to be vertical for long periods of time. I feel dizzy, faint and a LOT of pain. I take a handful of Rx meds every day and Excedrin Migraine, but they only take the edge off.

I had 5 surgeries in 2008 on my spine. More are planned.

I can only imagine these problems will make it difficult to be a medical student. It might be less of a problem during Basic Sciences due to the nature of classroom education, but I can imagine it would make clinicals very difficult.

Due to my dizziness and headaches it's hard to imagine being able to take a full day of classes, labs and also finding 2-4 hours in the evening to study. I have heard of "decompressed" medical schools where they let you do the first two years in three, but that might not even be enough.

Well, I'd love to hear all your opinions. It would be great for other people in this position to chime in.

Moderators, please feel free to move this thread if this is not the appropriate forum.

Thanks, everyone.

These kind of physical disabilities would make it impossible for you to practice/train in clinical medicine. It's very physical, very draining, and takes a lot out of people without these barriers.

I highly recommend you find another career, perhaps in research, or perhaps an allied field which doesn't require demanding patient interactions.

Best of luck.
 
My condition is not degenerative, unlike ALS, MS, Parkinsons, etc.

The use of a scooter may not really help as my symptoms are most severe when I am vertical. This includes sitting upright, tho on my feet is worse.

I understand what you mean by not practicing clinical medicine and instead going into research, etc. However in order to do so I would need a professional credential. I have always wanted to be a physician a having an MD/DO would be my ideal.

I am interested to know how medical schools respond to students in similar situations as I. There are various federal laws (ADA and others) which protect us, so I am interested to know what can be done.

Federal laws cannot change the requirements for a job. Being a medical student/physician has certain core competencies, including physical ability to perform the job.

I think medical school admissions would be doing you and others a complete disservice to admit you to their program knowing that there is no way you could complete the courses due to physical disability.

I say go for a Ph.D for your professional credential.
 
Are you kidding? Giving this guy false hope is not the way.

We should all admire his/her desire to go forth with dreams. The stated dreams were to acquire a professional credential in order to purse a research career. Ph.D. is the way to go.

Medical school is not. If he can't physically hack clinical years, he can't finish medical school. What about being on call 30 hours straight? What about running to a code? What about being impaired with pain pills day in and day out?

The best kind of advice one can give in this situation is real-world advice. With the listed disabilities, he cannot finish medical school. Assuming he passes the basic science years (which he even said that he cannot study that much), he cannot finish the clinical science years. No one should be given a pass or held to a different standard for this time, all should be accountable to the standards of passing, and those include some very rigorous physical requirements.

Best of luck with research, but medical school is not the way to go.

Let me start by saying good for you for challenging the status quo and beginning to take the first step versus just dreaming. I am not disabled, but do have a young sone with a disability and I work every day to make sure he has the bets shot possible. I was the furthest thing from being a doctor 4 years ago when he got sick. When he did, it changed my life. He still struggles, but I am starting med school in July, and may not be able to do more for him personally, but I will help others and that will hopefully fill a void for some and heopfully someday my little guy will know he is the real strong one....

but enought about me. My point is YES. You can do it. The only time I can remember not getting something done, is when I did not think of it first, or even think it was possible. There are a lot of people willing to help you. These people are usually people that are or know someone that has a challenge similar to yours. I am sure it could be perceived as being harder for you than a student without your challenges, but you are already dealing with your challenges right? DO NOT LET IT STAND IN YOUR WAY......

There are schools such as LECOM Erie that have an Independant study pathway. Once you get done with Anatomy (approx 12 weeks) you do not have to sit in lectures. You work in packets, meet with advosrs, etc....It is great for non traditional students. there are also several schools (LECOM is one of them) that have Problem Based Learning pathways that meet in small groups, but that also do not have to sit in lecture.

Long story short, if you want it go get it. You may have to work a little harder (unfairly I think) but if you are passionate and have the credentials to get in, someone has the right fit. You just have to network like crazy to find it....plus, what's the worst thing that happens if you come up short? Can't be worse than wondering. That could eat you alive.

Best of Luck to you.....
 
I would suggest talking with your physicians about how the future surgeries will impact your life. Will they help you regain any kind of mobility, stamina, less pain, ect.

Have you discussed any of your goals with your physician for their opinion on whether this is feasible? What about working with an occupational therapist?

I don't know if your dream is possible so I don't want to give false hope, but I would strongly suggest researching this very throughly. Talk to some schools in your area, doctors, occupational therapist, and anyone that they suggest to get the whole picture so you know more! Good luck!
 
These kind of physical disabilities would make it impossible for you to practice/train in clinical medicine. It's very physical, very draining, and takes a lot out of people without these barriers.

I highly recommend you find another career, perhaps in research, or perhaps an allied field which doesn't require demanding patient interactions.

Best of luck.

Gee, how very encouraging of you. The ADA and associated federal laws require that reasonable accommodation be given and all disabled people be allowed access to higher education, regardless of the disability.

If you haven't anything positive to add- such as experiences or observations on how disabled people can become physicians- then I kindly ask that you avoid this topic.

Thank you.
 
I am interested in opening a discussion regarding those of us who aspire to become physicians but have disabilities. While I would include ADD and ADHD as part of this discussion I am more interested in those who have moderate to severe physical and psychological disabilities.

I have a connective tissue disorder which has caused significant damage to my eight cranial nerve. This nerve complex is responsible for balance and hearing. I have some hearing loss but I also have no sense of balance. I suffer from severe orthostatic headaches and orthostatic hypotension. I am in Social Security disability and have a handicap placard for my car. I usually have to walk with a cane to help me keep my balance.

It is very difficult for me to be vertical for long periods of time. I feel dizzy, faint and a LOT of pain. I take a handful of Rx meds every day and Excedrin Migraine, but they only take the edge off.

I had 5 surgeries in 2008 on my spine. More are planned.

I can only imagine these problems will make it difficult to be a medical student. It might be less of a problem during Basic Sciences due to the nature of classroom education, but I can imagine it would make clinicals very difficult.

Due to my dizziness and headaches it's hard to imagine being able to take a full day of classes, labs and also finding 2-4 hours in the evening to study. I have heard of "decompressed" medical schools where they let you do the first two years in three, but that might not even be enough.

Well, I'd love to hear all your opinions. It would be great for other people in this position to chime in.

Moderators, please feel free to move this thread if this is not the appropriate forum.

Thanks, everyone.

Similar threads have been discussed on the pre-allo thread. The danger of SDN is that there will be a ton of folks who say "go for it" without taking into account the cost involved and the likelihood of success. Cheerleaders are a very dangerous group in this respect. The same kind of people who egg a person to jump off a roof with saran wrap wings. Their enthusiastic support doesn't make flying realistic.

The short answer is that a med school and residency would have to be willing to make accommodations for you for you to make it through most med school and residency programs. This has been done from time to time, but not with much regularity. A blind person was "allowed" to make it through one med school a few years back (I'm not sure he ever landed a residency), a number of wheelchair bound students have gotten through as well, etc. But there will be many med schools that simply don't have the ability to make adequate accommodations, because there are costs involved and it impacts others in the program. So a lot of med schools will send out a questionnaire describing the tasks you are going to be responsible for and asking if there is any reason you foresee not being able to do these tasks (without accommodation). With this screening, schools are able to eliminate from consideration many applicants, without ever asking illegal questions about your conditions, and force you to come to them if you would need accommodations. From your description, it sounds like you would have trouble with both the basic science years (where yes, you will potentially be spending entire days in lectures, PBL, lab, studying, exams and thereafter will be taking board exams which also involve the whole day), and thereafter the clinical years, where without accommodations you would normally be expected to be on your feet for long procedures and rounds, walking around large segments of a hospital (including stairs), doing physical exams and procedures which require a certain amount of manual dexterity. And thereafter in residency, you would be expected to work 80 hours/week average (might be more on a given week), with up to 30 hours in a row (unless the IOM rules requiring a "nap after 16 hours" gets passed).

Most med students and all residents can tell you they have had days where they were physically exhausted, having been on their feet nonstop for 20+ hours, having walked many flights of stairs chasing a resident/attending on rounds, to the point that their feet developed blisters even with the best of shoes. And still have to be sharp and good with their hands and head when a patient comes in at the end of that shift. And these are people without physical disabilities. Taking some time to not be vertical simply isn't the norm unless some accommodations are made. I personally would suggest that if too many accommodations are made, you aren't really attending medical school at all -- because a lot of what gets accommodated away, even in terms of keeping your head working long hours, being able to do surgery and other procedures where stamina is necessary, etc, is important to have at least as background, to be a competent physician. You don't train just for what you ultimately will (or can) do. You train broadly and then specialize because the broad background is important. So if you are doing medical school "lite" because that's all you can do, that might make you poorly prepared for what's to come.

So honestly, and bluntly, I don't see how someone who cannot be vertical for long periods of time and has balance and dizziness issues is going to fare well without extremely substantial accommodations, even if the deafness you describe can be accommodated. And even if a med school was willing to revamp their program to accommodate you, (and some might -- once in a while schools do this in the name of diversity or publicity), it would be hard to imagine many residencies would. When you can't man your 30 hour shift, or run to a CODE, or do that lengthy procedure, that means someone else has to -- which can be a problem for programs which already have everybody pushing the 80 hour limit, and will breed resentment of folks who have to pick up the slack in programs where people aren't hitting the cap but certainly would rather go home after THEIR work is done. So few residency programs are going to be willing to go down this road. You should hear the griping by residents when they have to pick up slack for someone who is out sick for ONE day, let alone someone in the program unable to do all their work for the duration. You don't want to be the reason everyone else can't go home to their families on time, even if you find a residency that is willing to create this situation. And from what you describe, you won't be carrying your own weight.

And since med schools really exist to train future practitioners, a lot of med schools will take the unlikeliness of you attaining a residency to heart. Medicine is fairly blunt -- they won't sugar coat it. They will tell you when you are not being realistic. Because the seats are so limited and the demand for physicians is so great, if it appears unlikely that you will succeed in this path, they will probably not let you "try", and use up a precious seat just to see how it goes. So you will have to find a place willing to make the fairly substantial accommodations, and should be aware that at the other end, the options for residency might be even more severely limited.

Honestly, I think from the disability you are describing, you are seriously underestimating the physical demands and long hours required of medicine. This is not a purely cerebral discipline. In fact, I'd say that that's only a very small percentage of medicine. Most is "doing". If you are looking for a cerebral path, a PhD in biomedical sciences is probably a wiser path.

I'm not sure it's worth the six digit tuition debt only to find out at the other end that few to no residencies have the ability to accommodate your conditions. But good luck in whatever path you decide.
 
Gee, how very encouraging of you. The ADA and associated federal laws require that reasonable accommodation be given and all disabled people be allowed access to higher education, regardless of the disability.

If you haven't anything positive to add- such as experiences or observations on how disabled people can become physicians- then I kindly ask that you avoid this topic.

Thank you.

Are you kidding? I'm helping you out: telling you how it really is out here.

Federal laws cannot change requirements for jobs. If you can't lift, you can't be a fireman. If you can't stand and do clinical duties which are critical to medical school/residency, then you can't physically become an MD.

I'm giving you a heads up and telling you that, per your stated goals for a professional credential to enter research, a Ph.D is the way to go. If you don't like that advice, then don't take it, but don't say I didn't warn you.
 
Are you kidding? I'm helping you out: telling you how it really is out here.

No. Are you kidding by telling disabled people they can't- and shouldn't- try to realize their dreams?

Federal laws cannot change requirements for jobs.

Yes they can. That's the whole point of the ADA. It requires reasonable accommodation.

If you can't stand and do clinical duties which are critical to medical school/residency, then you can't physically become an MD.
Gosh, you better tell that to the dwarf who I know who became an MD. And the woman in a wheel chair. And the guy who had a spinal injury. And the blind guy. You really ought to contact the med schools where they graduated from and let them know the degrees should be canceled. Really, I'm serious.

I'm giving you a heads up and telling you that, per your stated goals for a professional credential to enter research, a Ph.D is the way to go. If you don't like that advice, then don't take it, but don't say I didn't warn you.

How about you stop offering "advice". You are discouraging and prejudice against disabled people. So, please stop offering your advice as it's unwelcome.
 
Im not sure if anyone has read "An Anthropologist on Mars" by Oliver Sacks. One of the short stories is about a surgeon with Tourrette's Syndrome. But he can successfully calm any of his symptoms so they don't interfer with his chosen occupation.
 
No. Are you kidding by telling disabled people they can't- and shouldn't- try to realize their dreams?

Yes they can. That's the whole point of the ADA. It requires reasonable accommodation.

Gosh, you better tell that to the dwarf who I know who became an MD. And the woman in a wheel chair. And the guy who had a spinal injury. And the blind guy. You really ought to contact the med schools where they graduated from and let them know the degrees should be canceled. Really, I'm serious.

How about you stop offering "advice". You are discouraging and prejudice against disabled people. So, please stop offering your advice as it's unwelcome.

Suggestion - print out this thread. And have a friend or someone you trust read it and summarize it back to you in their words, including the status of the various posters (premed, current med student, or resident)

This is your call regarding pursuing this path or not. But ignoring or defaming a person who is much further down the path than you are and who is honestly sharing their experiences (the resident above or L2D) indicates that you are not open to viewpoints that differ from your own in this matter.
 
Suggestion - print out this thread. And have a friend or someone you trust read it and summarize it back to you in their words, including the status of the various posters (premed, current med student, or resident)

This is your call regarding pursuing this path or not. But ignoring or defaming a person who is much further down the path than you are and who is honestly sharing their experiences (the resident above or L2D) indicates that you are not open to viewpoints that differ from your own in this matter.

Are you honestly accusing me of defamation? How about the person who is demanding that disabled people not try to pursue their dreams.

Should I simply give up and move into an asylum far, far away so he never has to see me? I could care less what his status is. Being wrong and prejudice and wrong and prejudice, no matter your title.
 
... How about the person who is demanding that disabled people not try to pursue their dreams. ...

I don't think he is demanding you not to pursue your dreams, just to be cognizant of the fact that not all dreams are going to be realizable. And the cold hard and blunt truth is that sometimes telling you upfront that wanting something and realistically being able to get it aren't the same thing. Schools have to make reasonable accommodations. However YOU don't get to decide what is reasonable. And they cannot simply change med school to enable someone with a disability to complete it; at the core, you are going to have to perform the same basic tasks and duties that are deemed necessary of any medical student. Which means rounding and procedures and assisting in surgery, and taking overnight call, etc. And again in residency. If reasonable accommodations can be made, like letting you take the elevator during rounds, or letting you sit down periodically, and those are adequate, then great. But from what you describe in your original post, you'd require a lot more accommodation than this. Some schools have made accommodations far beyond what was objectively reasonable, and allowed people with more extreme disabilities (eg blindness) to make it through. However often there won't be a residency at the other end of this tunnel willing to do the same, so you could end up with an MD and no way to use it, and fairly significant debt to boot.

My concern with accommodations is that to some extent if you water down med school to enable someone significantly disabled to accomplish it, did they actually get the background necessary of an MD? I mean third year without assisting in the OR or taking call or doing any number of procedures for which you have to remain vertical and work while you are tired, and keep yourself mentally primed even in the face of sleep deprivation, isn't really third year. This endurance year is in large part to train you for the endurance-fest that is residency.

And as I mentioned above, if a residency makes accommodations, it probably means that others are going to have to pick up the slack because the residency will be short staffed if you can't do the 30 hour shifts some end up doing. Which will mean everyone resents you. Which is bad for you, and worse for them. So many residencies won't consider this a reasonable accommodation.

At any rate, when you start a thread trying to start a "discussion" and indicate that you want to hear "opinions", you have to accept opinions that differ from your own. I suggest you listen to what others have to say on the subject. It might not change your mind, and you should still explore whatever path interests you. But know that you aren't going to be met with open arms at all junctures on this path, not everyone is going to agree that what you need is at all "reasonable", and to the extent your accommodations result in others having to do more work, it probably breeds hostility in a system that is hard enough when everyone is in the same boat. But especially watch out for the very real possibility that you may find a med school willing to take your money for 4 years, but no residency to pick you up at the other end. This can happen, and you will be deep in debt with some worthless letters after your name. I doubt that's your dream.
 
It is perfectly clear that you wish to bar the disabled access from higher education and professional degrees. How can you advocate one to pursue a PhD in bio instead of an MD when the PhD would require even longer vertical time in the lab and take several years longer?

I will have no problem bringing in legal representation when it comes time to med school applications. The Americans with Disability Act guarantees that I have the right to pursue higher education, regardless of my disability. As long as I can pass Steps 1, 2 and 3 how can you possibly consider I would not be competent?

It's plain clear that those of you who are nay-sayers for the disabled realizing our dreams is due to your desire to keep us "undesirables" out of your hallowed profession. Well, it's time to realize that there are disabled people out there, we are also human beings and thank goodness we have legal protection.
 
These kind of physical disabilities would make it impossible for you to practice/train in clinical medicine. It's very physical, very draining, and takes a lot out of people without these barriers.

I highly recommend you find another career, perhaps in research, or perhaps an allied field which doesn't require demanding patient interactions.

Best of luck.

Great to see you are looking out for the OPs best interests. That is very nice of you sparing him the hard work.....maybe he should just ride in a scooter all day and get a dog to open doors????

I guess if people say it can't be done or it is too hard, you shouldn't try it......this is a non trad thread, so I guess I can use this example-as it is an older one, but hopefully some of you remember a guy by the name of Jim Abbot? Yeah. he was born with one (left) hand and a nub for his right. Jim wanted to play baseball. I will skip all the intermediate stuff, but Jim not only made it to the majors (Califonia Angels / TEAM USA Olympics) but he is one of the very few people EVER to not spend a day in the minors on the way up. sure he is out of baseball now, but he did have a good career. yes, a MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER WITH ONLY ONE HAND.....BY THE WAY....HE WON A GOLD GLOVE FOR HIS FIELDING!!!!! I still get goosebumps thinking of this guy. If you have never seen him pitch and field, it is truly a thing of amazement.

As long as I am at it. What about TEAM HOYT. This is the autistic kid who the original doctors said could not understand anything and could not communicate. his dad refused to listen and kept trying to communicate and found that is son loved to be pushed in a cart while his dad ran.....his dad was not a runner, but started running......long story short, he has done something like 80 marathons and multiple iron man triathalons (dad pulls his son in a raft while he is swimming and carts him in the other parts of the race.....if you have not seen the you tube video...watch it. if you don't cry there is something wrong with you.

I don't mean to pre judge here. Especially with a resident. You have earned respect for your own achievements. I am just trying to offfer perspective. I know we should not blindly build people up, but realistically, different perspectives are a good thing. Let the OP make up his mind.

I love hearing something can't be done. It only motivates me more....wish I was half the guy Jim Abbot or the dad from Team Hoyt is. Just my $0.02
 
Great to see you are looking out for the OPs best interests. That is very nice of you sparing him the hard work.....maybe he should just ride in a scooter all day and get a dog to open doors????

I guess if people say it can't be done or it is too hard, you shouldn't try it......this is a non trad thread, so I guess I can use this example-as it is an older one, but hopefully some of you remember a guy by the name of Jim Abbot? Yeah. he was born with one (left) hand and a nub for his right. Jim wanted to play baseball. I will skip all the intermediate stuff, but Jim not only made it to the majors (Califonia Angels / TEAM USA Olympics) but he is one of the very few people EVER to not spend a day in the minors on the way up. sure he is out of baseball now, but he did have a good career. yes, a MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL PLAYER WITH ONLY ONE HAND.....BY THE WAY....HE WON A GOLD GLOVE FOR HIS FIELDING!!!!! I still get goosebumps thinking of this guy. If you have never seen him pitch and field, it is truly a thing of amazement.

As long as I am at it. What about TEAM HOYT. This is the autistic kid who the original doctors said could not understand anything and could not communicate. his dad refused to listen and kept trying to communicate and found that is son loved to be pushed in a cart while his dad ran.....his dad was not a runner, but started running......long story short, he has done something like 80 marathons and multiple iron man triathalons (dad pulls his son in a raft while he is swimming and carts him in the other parts of the race.....if you have not seen the you tube video...watch it. if you don't cry there is something wrong with you.

I don't mean to pre judge here. Especially with a resident. You have earned respect for your own achievements. I am just trying to offfer perspective. I know we should not blindly build people up, but realistically, different perspectives are a good thing. Let the OP make up his mind.

I love hearing something can't be done. It only motivates me more....wish I was half the guy Jim Abbot or the dad from Team Hoyt is. Just my $0.02

👍👍👍👍😍😍😍👍👍👍👍
 
... As long as I can pass Steps 1, 2 and 3 how can you possibly consider I would not be competent? ...

Your mental "competency" is not in question. It's your ability to do the tasks involved in med school and residency that are in question. There is no standardized test for whether you can handle an overnight call or participate in the OR, or do any of the procedures expected of typical med students. But those are big parts of med school. So it has nothing to do with the Steps, and everything to do with a number of other things that are inherent in med school education.

I do note that the Steps will be all day testings, involving sitting in a chair the bulk of the day, with the exception of Step 2 CS, where you will be performing physical exams on patients all day. You may even find those a bit enduring if you can't be vertical.

I think you need to open your mind a bit to what some people are telling you. Nobody begrudges you trying to go this route. Some of us would suggest you research it a bit more to make sure you aren't rushing into a wall, whereby maybe you can find a place that lets you get your degree, but possible no avenue through which you can train and use it. You will have no legal recourse because programs only have to make reasonable accommodations, and a lot of what your post suggests you need won't necessarily be considered reasonable if brought to a court. And you need to get accommodations at least twice -- once for school and another time for a residency (assuming it's a categorical residency and not someplace that requires a preliminary path, in which case you'd need two sets of accommodations at the residency level). And again, residency is where it's going to be hard to get you to pull your weight given your limitations.

Medicine isn't as purely cerebral as you seem to think. It's a lot of doing. For a lot of hours. Most of them vertical. So you can be the smartest, most competent person in the world, and not be able to do this job. Doesn't really matter what your dreams are -- you either can do it with objectively reasonable accommodation, or you can't.

Good luck on whatever you choose. But please research this further before you start borrowing educational debt. You, in fact, will have a much easier time getting the accommodations you need on a PhD/lab path, where if you need to lie down for an hour every couple of hours you could, if you needed to stay off your feet you could, etc. In medicine you won't have these options. And as for a PhD taking several years longer -- I think you are not including the years of residency training in medicine for which you would also need accommodations.
 
... I know we should not blindly build people up, but realistically, different perspectives are a good thing. Let the OP make up his mind....

Nothing would be crueler than telling someone "you can do it" and having him find out, after borrowing $150k and spending 4 years in med school, that no residency will be willing to accommodate him. Sure different perspectives are a good thing. Different ranges of physical ability/endurance, not so much.
 
Nothing would be crueler than telling someone "you can do it" and having him find out, after borrowing $150k and spending 4 years in med school, that no residency will be willing to accommodate him. Sure different perspectives are a good thing. Different ranges of physical ability/endurance, not so much.

Yes there is. It's called being prejudice and bigoted toward people with disabilities.
 
OP, I am concerned about your attitude. Your initial post said you welcome all opinions, but when people post opinions you don't like, you call them bigoted against the disabled. You tell them not to post in the thread unless they agree with you. You threaten to sue medical schools who won't admit you.

Law2doc and the other posters are not bigots. They do not hate the disabled. No one is suggesting that the disabled be tossed into institutions and be forgotten. The posters are realists, and they think it would be extremely difficult for you to make it through medical school and residency. Frankly, so do I. My brother has fibromyalgia, and he had to drop out of optometry school despite being in the top half of his class because he couldn't physically handle the standing and bending necessary to examine patients.

I suppose you can try to sue your way into medical school, but I wouldn't count on it. While the ADA provides protections, it does not require absolute access to all jobs. Many jobs have legitimate physical requirements, and those that don't meet the requirements can be excluded if reasonable accommodations can't be provided. What's a reasonable accommodation? Ultimately, it's what a jury in a civil lawsuit says it is. Do you want to spend the next 5 years or more in litigation trying to prove your point?

We can't have everything we want in life. All of us face limitations of some kind along the way. OP, we're not trying to crush your dream of being a doctor. Pursue it if you wish, but you should at least consider that it may not be realistic.
 
I think this AMA publication ("Medical Students with Disabilities") that Sindadel linked to above may answer some questions about how the ADA and Rehabilitation Act apply to medical school admissions:

https://services.aamc.org/Publicati...version37.pdf&prd_id=131&prv_id=150&pdf_id=37

"Neither ADA nor Section 504 [of the Rehabilitation Act] regulations require an institution to make an accommodation if it is unreasonable, if it would constitute an undue burden or hardship to provide it, or if it would require a fundamental alteration to the institution’s program." (p. 20).

Some examples of fundamental alterations to an institution's program include waiver of attendance requirements, such as part-time attendance of a full-time law school program (see McGregor v. Louisiana State University Board of Supervisors, 3 F.3d 850 (5th Cir. 1993)), as well as waiver of clinical requirements in a nursing program (see Southeastern Community College v. Davis, 442 U.S. 397 (1979)).

Of course, a school may go above and beyond the ADA to accommodate the OP. It probably depends on the school and its experience with disabled students. Reaching out to the schools to determine what accommodations are feasible would be a good idea before investing time, energy, and money in pursuit of a medical education. Good luck!
 
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Do you want to spend the next 5 years or more in litigation trying to prove your point?
...

It will be more like 10 years because you face the same challenge at the residency level. Getting accommodated by a med school is only half the battle. And arguably the easier half.
 
Yes there is. It's called being prejudice and bigoted toward people with disabilities.


You've got to be kidding. It's people like you, super-litigious and intolerant of opinions of your own, that develop inappropriate attitudes against all disabled people in the minds of the populace.

Get over yourself. Neither you nor anyone is "entitled" to anything in this world, it's a requirement to earn in order to achieve. We have done nothing but give you encouragement, and sometimes that encouragement is in the form of tough love, something you seem in desperate need of, judging by your tone.

The way to get ahead in life is via hard work, not lawsuits and a sense of entitlement. Appropriate accommodations should be made by employers on your behalf, but completely changing the requirements for a job are not appropriate, but inappropriate to you, them, and your colleagues. Good luck in pursuit of your research career, and perhaps medical school will work out for you, but judging by your attitude, I expect you have a long way to go in life.

Just so you know, I have a physical disability which I've had to overcome, and nearly couldn't complete medical school because of it. It's been a long road, but I've been able to navigate, one day at a time, pulling my full weight alongside of my colleagues every step of the way.
 
You've got to be kidding. It's people like you, super-litigious and intolerant of opinions of your own, that develop inappropriate attitudes against all disabled people in the minds of the populace.

Get over yourself. Neither you nor anyone is "entitled" to anything in this world, it's a requirement to earn in order to achieve. We have done nothing but give you encouragement, and sometimes that encouragement is in the form of tough love, something you seem in desperate need of, judging by your tone.

The way to get ahead in life is via hard work, not lawsuits and a sense of entitlement. Appropriate accommodations should be made by employers on your behalf, but completely changing the requirements for a job are not appropriate, but inappropriate to you, them, and your colleagues. Good luck in pursuit of your research career, and perhaps medical school will work out for you, but judging by your attitude, I expect you have a long way to go in life.

Just so you know, I have a physical disability which I've had to overcome, and nearly couldn't complete medical school because of it. It's been a long road, but I've been able to navigate, one day at a time, pulling my full weight alongside of my colleagues every step of the way.

Can't believe I am replying to this again. I guess I will have to learn to keep my mouth shut before school starts, but until then...........

I replied ot this thread earlier with a lot of encouragement. I STRONGLY believe ANYTHING (really) is possible. That being said, I am also concerned about the OPs litigous perspective.

Everyone roots for and loves the underdog because all (or most of us) have been the underdog in something in our lives, so we can all relate. But jus tthink about what drives us to the underdog.....it is the respect and the admiration of someone overcoming the odds.

On the flip side, when one quotes statues or case law at the first sign of trouble your true motives might be questioned....I would ask a simple question:
----Are you fighting to become a doctor or do you want to fight anyone who questions your desire to become a doctor?-----

No disrespect intended. When my son was diagnosed with a severe case of epilepsy at 5 weeks old with swelling of the brain because of massive seizures, my wife and I talked to many doctors and a couple lawyers about the rough delivery and the reluctance of the doctors to do a C sect. Many people told use to sue the OBGYN.......we focused on the most important thing which was our son. Four years later, genetic testing revealed an abnormality on one amino acid on one chromasome in the area where epilepsy is thought to happen. Is it a guarantee.....no. Better than ruining someones medical career because we were blind with emotion.

OP----please take the feedback as a gift. It is your ecision how to use it. Best of luck to you, whatever you decide.
 
I am becoming a doctor for one combined reason: I love medicine and want to help people. Please do not ever, ever doubt my intentions. I only developed this disability in early 2007....as I was sitting in the library studying for my orgo chem final. I was a fully functional person before my 8th cranial nerve decided to stop working. I wasn't born this way and up until then I was an extremely active person. I worked for 6 years on an ambulance as an EMT-Intermediate.

However, I did not open this thread asking for nay-sayers or "opinions". I was perfectly clear in that I wanted to begin a discussion for those of us who have disability. If you are related to someone or know an inspiring story then please share.

Telling me I can't do something due to my physical disability is a really terrible thing. I do not want to hear it. I don't care about your ideas of "love" nor your opinions. Keep them to yourself. Period.

So, if you have a disability or know someone who does and are in med school, a resident or attending them please chime in. 🙂
 
First you say:

Well, I'd love to hear all your opinions.

Now, you say:

I don't care about your ideas of "love" nor your opinions. Keep them to yourself. Period.

Believe it or not, but some of us here genuinely want to be helpful. I happen to be a lawyer with experience in disability law, so when you say things like: "The Americans with Disability Act guarantees that I have the right to pursue higher education, regardless of my disability," I feel compelled to point out that you misapprehend the statute's requirements. It only requires reasonable accommodations. Based on the cases I've cited (including from the Supreme Court), it's clear that medical schools are not required to fundamentally alter their curriculum to accommodate you. If your disability requires such unreasonable accommodations, you won't be able to sue your way into medical school no matter how smart you are.

BTW, have you thought about whether going to medical school will adversely affect your eligibility for SSDI? It's a possibility you should be prepared for.
 
Wow, talk about picking and choosing. The very first thing I wrote was
I am interested in opening a discussion regarding those of us who aspire to become physicians but have disabilities.

Note where I wrote "those of us". Do you have a disability? If so, are you aspiring to be a physician? If both of those are met then please chime in so we can support each other.

How does it make you feel that you are bigoted toward disabled people? Shame.
 
Wow, talk about picking and choosing. The very first thing I wrote was ...

The words "discussion" and "opinions" imply that multiple viewpoints are being solicited. But even beyond that, SDN is a board where you don't get to control the discourse. This is a community, and within any community there are multiple viewpoints. Part of posting here means being receptive to responses that don't necessarily agree with yours. I suggest you open your mind and take to heart some of the comments that dont jibe with yours. At a minimum, they will let you understand the hurdles you have ahead. Ignoring them and saying "don't crush my dreams" is exactly the kind of myopia that is going to make accomplishing what you seek impossible. You are going to need not one but two sets of accommodations, first for med school and then for residency. A few med schools have gone beyond reasonable accommodations in RARE instances in the past, so that phase of accommodations might be obtainable. I doubt you are going to have as much luck at the residency phase. Which I would worry (if I were you) will leave you with an MD, $150k+ in debt, and no way to use your degree. The accommodations you likely require based on the description of your need are not minor. They are going to make most programs balk. But I (and really everybody on this thread, best I can see) wishes you the best of luck in this pursuit. Nobody is trying to crush your dreams, just trying to open your eyes to what you will face. Again, good luck and please keep us posted on your successes.
 
I agree with lawdoc, coastie and ophelia. Lawdoc may be being a little too blunt, but the gist of what lawdoc says is true.

As far as knowing disabled docs, there was one resident in my program who had only one arm that was usable - the other she could only use minimally. This was internal medicine. There were some things she couldn't do, like resuscitate a patient and certain other hands-on procedures. I mean, she could participate but she couldn't have done the entire procedure by herself. Therefore, there are certain specialties she couldn't do...I would think GI and cardiology would be impossible. For the cath lab, for example, you really need 2 hands...ditto if she had wanted to pursue surgery. However, there are things that she could do, and she could use her stethoscope and most other equipment, etc. So with REASONABLE alterations, she could perform most of her job functions. I have also seen/encountered a neurologist in a wheelchair...I really don't know his functional status when he started out training, but he was fairly young. I know he wouldn't be able to do certain medical procedures, but I don't know the details of the extent of his disability.

As you are describing them, I think your various medical issues would preclude being able to get through med school and residency at this time. Even the hearing and balance limitations by themselves could be a very big deal...I mean, you need to be able to balance yourself and various equipment you'll use, and not being able to hear what your patient is saying to you or hear the heart and lungs well via your stethoscope would be a big deal. The main thing I would be concerned about would just be the physical demands of both the preclinical years and clinical years, plus residency.

I think the OP is greatly underestimating the physical demands of being a med student and resident. It's not as much the first 2 years, as the 3rd, 4th and residency. They are hands down the hardest thing I've ever done physically, and I did cross country running in college and have done a lot of hiking at high elevations with 35 pounds of gear for a week, etc. I mean, 3rd year of med school and residency (particularly internship) is just indescribable unless you've done it, IMHO. I know it sounds melodramatic to say that, but it's true. Even the first two years can be very very demanding...during my 2nd year we had 6 hours of class per day, and often the 2-4 hours studying per day would not be enough...I mean definitely 2 hours per day would not have been nearly enough at my school, and that's assuming you attended all the 6-7 hours/dad of class.

I don't agree that being a PhD requires being on your feet longer than an MD (as was stated above). That's definitely not true.

There are a lot of things you can do medically that don't require an MD, by the way. I think starting out with a master's or PhD would be the way to go, personally. Perhaps your condition will improve or new treatments will be invented...
 
You can congratulate yourselves on fostering your sense of bigotry and prejudice. Just know that I have the law and morality on my side. And a lot of good lawyers and won't hesitate to sue to get what I am morally and legally entitled.
 
You can congratulate yourselves on fostering your sense of bigotry and prejudice. Just know that I have the law and morality on my side. And a lot of good lawyers and won't hesitate to sue to get what I am morally and legally entitled.

Again, the law has been discussed above in this thread by at least two lawyers. It turns on what is determined objectively "reasonable" by a group of most likely non-disabled people. So unless the accommodations you require fit within this framework, you actually don't have the law on your side. Your calling folks bigots and prejudiced shows your true colors. Nobody on this thread wished you anything but good luck, and nobody called you names. You better lose this attitude and litigiousness or precisely the people you are going to need to help you down this road are going to be quick to turn a deaf ear. Again, good luck, even though you seem unable to accept civil comments or discussion.🙄
 
I agree with lawdoc, coastie and ophelia. Lawdoc may be being a little too blunt, but the gist of what lawdoc says is true....

You seriously think what I said was more blunt than what coastie said in this thread? I think my reputation is preceding me here.:laugh:
 
Like the president, I'll call you out if you show your true colors. It's so clear that several of you are bigoted and prejudice against the handicap and disabled. It's a shame you are in medicine as medicine requires people to be compassionate and understanding. Perhaps you should find a different vocation- like debt collector. They are abusive and don't follow the law. Right up your alley.
 
You should check out the "Technical Standards" promulgated by each medical school as minimum requirements for admission, progression within the program, and graduation. Many of them specifically mention balance and equilibrium, which you say you lack:

Harvard (http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/default.asp?page=detailed):

"A candidate should be able to execute motor movements reasonably required to provide general care and emergency treatment to patients. . . . Such actions require coordination of both gross and fine muscular movements,equilibrium, and functional use of the senses of touch and vision."

Duke (http://medschool.duke.edu/wysiwyg/downloads/Tab4.technical.standards.pdf)

"Execute movements reasonably required to provide general medical care and emergency treatment to patients. These skills require coordination of gross and fine motor movements, equilibrium, and sensation."

UCLA (http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/prospective/admissions/default.cfm?pgID=142)

"Candidates must possess the capacity to perform physical examinations and diagnostic maneuvers. They must be able to respond to emergency situations in a timely manner and provide general and emergency care. Such activities require physical mobility, coordination of both gross and fine motor neuromuscular function, and balance and equilibrium."

But I guess you and your army of lawyers don't see this as a problem.
 
You should check out the "Technical Standards" promulgated by each medical school as minimum requirements for admission, progression within the program, and graduation. Many of them specifically mention balance and equilibrium, which you say you lack:

Harvard (http://hms.harvard.edu/admissions/default.asp?page=detailed):

"A candidate should be able to execute motor movements reasonably required to provide general care and emergency treatment to patients. . . . Such actions require coordination of both gross and fine muscular movements,equilibrium, and functional use of the senses of touch and vision."

Duke (http://medschool.duke.edu/wysiwyg/downloads/Tab4.technical.standards.pdf)

"Execute movements reasonably required to provide general medical care and emergency treatment to patients. These skills require coordination of gross and fine motor movements, equilibrium, and sensation."

UCLA (http://www.medstudent.ucla.edu/prospective/admissions/default.cfm?pgID=142)

"Candidates must possess the capacity to perform physical examinations and diagnostic maneuvers. They must be able to respond to emergency situations in a timely manner and provide general and emergency care. Such activities require physical mobility, coordination of both gross and fine motor neuromuscular function, and balance and equilibrium."

But I guess you and your army of lawyers don't see this as a problem.

Me and my army of lawyers certainly do not see this as a problem. The ADA demands reasonable accommodation and that is what I will get. If the "technical standards" once said that you must be a white person. I doubt you would have any problems with that, as you clearly hate the disabled.

Gosh, you and Hitler would have made good buddies. Both hating the disabled.
 
While this thread has been enlightening and entertaining at the same time, has anyone considered the OP might be a troll? I inadvertantly fed a troll on another thread the other day not realizing it either. The statements by the OP are so illogical and unreasonable - I just can't fathom them coming from the kind of person of reason that medicine usually attracts. I'm really thinking troll here, although it has been interesting to learn about the laws. Just my two cents.
 
While this thread has been enlightening and entertaining at the same time, has anyone considered the OP might be a troll? I inadvertantly fed a troll on another thread the other day not realizing it either. The statements by the OP are so illogical and unreasonable - I just can't fathom them coming from the kind of person of reason that medicine usually attracts. I'm really thinking troll here, although it has been interesting to learn about the laws. Just my two cents.

Absolutely not a troll. Just a human being who is disabled and fighting against the utter bigotry and prejudice that only people on anonymous message boards care to reveal.

I guess you think it's illogical and unreasonable for disabled people to have even the slightest hope of having some idea of a pseudo-normal life. Would you like to lock us away in asylums where we are out of sight and out of mind?

The first step is recognizing you are a bigot. Yes, it's hard to admit. You may even consider yourself to be liberal and forward thinking. In truth, you are a bigot and need to recognize this. Once you recognize this fact you can then start on the slow path to overcoming it. Not hating disabled people and trying to lock us away is a good thing. Work on it. You can succeed.
 
Yep, I call troll

There have just been too many points made about the definition of "reasonable accommodation", generalizations about people hating the disabled or being bigoted or "prejudice" (isn't the past tense "prejudiced?"), and the like for this to be serious.

Kind of fun to think about, though.. what topic could you raise in order to increase the ire of the average SDN poster? It would have to sound somewhat reasonable..

on a related note, my college roomate (who became a corporate att'y) used to get a kick out of writing really long letters to companies' customer service department about alleged offenses or failings of their products. It was amazing how responsive these groups could be, failing to recognize he did this because it was fun, and because he'd have free products sent to him frequently.
 
Rereading the subsequent replies - I still affirm troll. The use of "Hitler" and "bigot" to complete strangers like me and Law2Doc - especially Law2Doc who has continued to be nice despite being posted to in a really attacking manner - screams troll.
If the OP is genuine - we wish you the best of luck in your journey. Honestly, I think everything that could be said with has been said. I honestly hope the OP is able to accomplish what he is hoping to.
 
I have reported those of you who call me a "troll". This is an unnecessary personal attack and harassment.
 
You can report me as a troll too, because I think you're completely full of crap. I don't have any problem supporting a disabled classmate. The problem here is that you're an *******. (Seven letters, starts with ass, ends with hole.)
 
Reported again for crystal clear violations of harassment and personal attacks.
 
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