Discogenic lbp

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regular cardiovascular exercise is definitely recommended. Running can go either way. I've seen it dramatically improve or worsen someones discogenic pain.

I'd certainly make time to swim at least three times per week.

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Yeah I've done the back brace, TENS, and lido/voltaren patches. I'm just going to make a list for myself here to reference over time.
1) I have not done the caudal and that gives me hope so I'll try that.
2) I didn't even think about AS. My father has similar issues with facet type back pain from his 20s and occasional SI pain...I am definitely going to get tested for that.
3) I feel like I have a little professional permission to just try maybe one tramadol a day and see how things go. So we'll see if I do that.
4) Start swimming. Running would kill me but I have put off swimming too long. I'm going to get back into a gym with a pool and do that already.
5) Have one more MBB and see if removing that old aching facet pain makes my life a little better, even if 40-50% and maybe consider RF later.
6) Timeoutofmind I really appreciate the advice. I have limited my role at work a lot, and have taken steps to improve my interpersonal relationships and reduce stress levels. I'm trying meditation and I know I need more things in that direction for general life progression so I'll keep going. So far no effect on the pain unfortunately (yet?).
7) I'm buying a new mattress. Had a 3 inch firm topper on my side of our expensive tempurpedic for 8 months now it's weird to sleep so "separate" from my wife so I'm finally gonna get a new one. I'm thinking air mattress from what I've heard. Thinking sleep number. They have a 100 day return policy. But if anyone reading this warns me about it I'll keep looking.
8) No more imaging. I was right in the end that getting to see the MRIs did more harm for me than good. I would get some flex/ext films to r/o instability b/c I'm pretty sure I do have instability because I sometimes just feel unhinged down there (hard to explain but really painful), but I wouldn't get surgery anyway without waiting it out several more years and I don't want to break down my psyche even more.

I'm scared of SCS on myself...just being one of those patients. It's a bit much to face right now. Hearing confirmation that waiting 5-10 years things might get better helps. And that I'm not blatantly mistreating/misleading myself due to bias and denial b/c it likely is discogenic pain so there isn't much to do.

I did run across this amazing set of videos on youtube if anybody gets curious. This is a business owner, seems like a loaner type of guy, who was suicidal from the pain. He posts serial MRIs (6 or 7 total) during the course of his treatment with stem cells with the procedure completed in Spain. It's pretty remarkable and unlike anything I think we've seen in our field yet just the combination of imaging and personal experience description. He does emphasize the role physical therapy played but the MRI changes are undeniable. This is one thing that really, really gives me hope and I know it's crazy to most of us here including myself who are very skeptical but if it's my last option someday soon, there isn't much of a choice. I used to be normal and now I don't feel like a normal man anymore. www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAk2H2Hq-Cw&t=0s&index=38&list=LLNq9NMDoewNd61VuEwhxUNg

Thanks to everyone that has replied with advice.
 
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Yeah I've done the back brace, TENS, and lido/voltaren patches. I'm just going to make a list for myself here to reference over time.
1) I have not done the caudal and that gives me hope so I'll try that.
2) I didn't even think about AS. My father has similar issues with facet type back pain from his 20s and occasional SI pain...I am definitely going to get tested for that.
3) I feel like I have a little professional permission to just try maybe one tramadol a day and see how things go. So we'll see if I do that.
4) Start swimming. Running would kill me but I have put off swimming too long. I'm going to get back into a gym with a pool and do that already.
5) Have one more MBB and see if removing that old aching facet pain makes my life a little better, even if 40-50% and maybe consider RF later.
6) Timeoutofmind I really appreciate the advice. I have limited my role at work a lot, and have taken steps to improve my interpersonal relationships and reduce stress levels. I'm trying meditation and I know I need more things in that direction for general life progression so I'll keep going. So far no effect on the pain unfortunately (yet?).
7) I'm buying a new mattress. Had a 3 inch firm topper on my side of our expensive tempurpedic for 8 months now it's weird to sleep so "separate" from my wife so I'm finally gonna get a new one. I'm thinking air mattress from what I've heard. Thinking sleep number. They have a 100 day return policy. But if anyone reading this warns me about it I'll keep looking.
8) No more imaging. I was right in the end that getting to see the MRIs did more harm for me than good. I would get some flex/ext films to r/o instability b/c I'm pretty sure I do have instability because I sometimes just feel unhinged down there (hard to explain but really painful), but I wouldn't get surgery anyway without waiting it out several more years and I don't want to break down my psyche even more.

I'm scared of SCS on myself...just being one of those patients. It's a bit much to face right now. Hearing confirmation that waiting 5-10 years things might get better helps. And that I'm not blatantly mistreating/misleading myself due to bias and denial b/c it likely is discogenic pain so there isn't much to do.

I did run across this amazing set of videos on youtube if anybody gets curious. This is a business owner, seems like a loaner type of guy, who was suicidal from the pain. He posts serial MRIs (6 or 7 total) during the course of his treatment with stem cells with the procedure completed in Spain. It's pretty remarkable and unlike anything I think we've seen in our field yet just the combination of imaging and personal experience description. He does emphasize the role physical therapy played but the MRI changes are undeniable. This is one thing that really, really gives me hope and I know it's crazy to most of us here including myself who are very skeptical but if it's my last option someday soon, there isn't much of a choice. I used to be normal and now I don't feel like a normal man anymore. www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAk2H2Hq-Cw&t=0s&index=38&list=LLNq9NMDoewNd61VuEwhxUNg

Thanks to everyone that has replied with advice.
I have personally seen changes in the annulus of the disc with annular tears 6 months post prp in some patients with follow up mri. Also seen changes with size of disc herniation after epidural lysate prp..
 
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I have personally seen changes in the annulus of the disc with annular tears 6 months post prp in some patients with follow up mri. Also seen changes with size of disc herniation after epidural lysate prp..
I see changes in size of disks with no treatment. These are not static conditions.
 
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One of my good buddies did a fellowship with Chris Centeno and the only thing he does is orthobiologics. He swears by intradiscal stem cells. I can't sit here and debate the topic bc I'm in no position to do that and truly I don't care what anyone's opinion of it is but my buddy swears by it for annular tears and painful discogenic disease. There are other applications for what they do but since we're talking about discogenic pain...

Edit - Lemme add that the PRP and lysate procedures into the interspinous ligaments and facets seems to be pretty effective as well.
 
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isn't the natural history for most disc herniations to have gradual reduction in size?

fwiw, one of my colleagues thinks that 2 level fusion is the best treatment for annular tears. oddly enough, he is a spine surgeon.
another person i know thinks that deep tissue laser treatment will heal disc herniations.
almost every chiropractor thinks that spinal decompression or manipulation will cure patient's back pains.
Dr. Oz thinks devil's claw will cure SI pain.


just quoting what a friend swears by is at best inconsequential but at worst outright dangerous. have some proof it will work....

think if this article when you talk to a patient:

Pseudo-quackery in Chronic Pain Care

Pseudo-quackery in Chronic Pain Care
A field with a large gray zone between overt quackery and evidence-based care in musculoskeletal medicine
updated Dec 20, 2017 (first published 2010)
by Paul Ingraham, Vancouver, Canada bio
paul-tight-crop-borderless-200px-s.jpg

Not all quackery is obvious — not even to skeptics. Subtler snake oil is actually a more serious problem in musculoskeletal health care, because it’s harder to spot and much more common, even mainstream. Such “mild” quackery probably generates just as much false hope and wasted time, energy, money — and even harm.1

Rank, obvious quackery
If you want your quackery strong, like a stiff shot of whiskey, you can find plenty of it: the care of aches, pains and injuries is rife with alternative treatments that are experimental at best, and probably too good to be true.

bottle-hope-m.jpg

  • A homeopathic Arnica montana ointment, with barely any actual arnica in it, is one of the most popular remedies in the world.2
  • Reiki “masters” wave their hands over injuries and diseases, almost literally trying to wish them away.3
  • A sizeable sect of chiropractors sell the idea that adjusting the upper cervical spine can cure not only low back pain, but all disease.4 And they accuse physicians of arrogance!
These are some of the superstars of scientifically dubious treatments in alternative health care, and they’re relatively easy to spot and avoid. Many people are doubtful about these treatments, and many chronic pain patients in particular know all too well how little they have been helped by this category of care.5 You don’t have to be a card-carrying skeptic to know that some promises sound too good to be true.

But what if quackery isn’t so obvious?

Some surprising medical advice: “The last thing you need is therapy”
When my wife was severely injured in car accident in 2010 — fracturing her skull and brain, spine, pelvis, arm, and foot — her physiatrist (a doctor specializing in injury rehabilitation) gave her some surprising advice:

Don’t bother with any physical therapy. That’s the last thing you need. You mainly just need rest, and general activity when you can handle it. Maybe in a while go a couple times and get a little coaching and course corrections, but mostly it’s a waste of time and money.

Harsh! But not without justification — this is the cost of some serious and well-document backwardness in physical therapy.6 Many or even most mainstream rehabilitation options and treatments are based on some really antiquated ideas, and offer surprisingly little evidence-based bang for the buck-per-minute. It isn’t “quackery,” per se, but it certainly falls far short of good, modern care with proven benefits.

Sneaky quackery
Many common treatments exist in that disconcertingly large, messy gray zone between overt quackery and proven, uncontroversial medicine. Probably the best examples are ultrasound and transcutaneous electrical stimulation (TENS): mainstream and extremely popular, but bombarding injuries and pain with sound waves and electric current is nowhere near as evidence-based a treatment as most people assume.

Many of these treatment are considered legitimate and mainstream even though they really aren’t any more useful than snake oil — or are just barely so. The gray zone is large because there is precious little that we can actually do to help people in pain or to facilitate healing. Not much “works.” Pain and rehabilitation science is still distressingly, exasperatingly primitive.7Things are getting better,8 but much of what we have learned has been alarmingly slow to influence clinicians. As Zusman wrote, “for reasons somewhat difficult to comprehend the message does not seem to be getting through.”9

Not much works? Citation needed! I won’t make the case in detail here (many other articles delve into the disappointing science), but if I had to pick just a couple key citations:

Even “simple” overuse injuries continue to present surprising scientific difficulties. For instance, it turns out that tendons are not just boring ol’ gristle after all, but impressively clever “bio-rope” with physiologic complexity undreamed of 25 years ago12 — and the only thing that’s clear is that we don’t understand the biology well enough to treat tendons effectively.

For lack of well-tested treatment methods, physical therapists, chiropractors, and massage therapists routinely sell treatments that would be considered experimental in most other fields of medicine. But patients generally have no idea when they have entered this gray zone of therapeutic guesswork, because pseudo-quackery treatments aren’t ridiculous on their face, and some of them are even interesting and promising. So what makes them dubious?

  • debatable plausibility
  • absence of (good) evidence
  • overconfident prescription despite the lack of evidence
quit-your-bitching-bmp0813dc-l.jpg

by Dave Coverly, www.speedbump.com

Shruggers: ideas of average quality
A lot of treatment ideas are not very plausible, but plausibility is hard to nail down. One person’s plausibility is another’s eye-roller. I know of a lot of allegedly plausible treatment ideas that have some merit — I wouldn’t say that they are out to lunch — but neither do they really impress me. I call them “shruggers” — ideas worth testing, but mostly pointless to debate except out of intellectual curiosity. A shrugger always has at least a couple fairly obvious problems with it.

Manual therapists (and doctors too) have a lot of shruggers: untested, or barely tested, or badly tested. Here’s a bunch of examples that I think fall into this category. Some readers will think several of these are obvious quackery, while others will be outraged that I’m suggesting they are candidates. This only emphasizes the point: they are in the gray zone. I’ve added more detailed explanatory footnotes to several of the more informative examples, highlighted.

  • foam rolling
  • prolotherapy13
  • ultrasound, especially extracorporeal shockwave therapy14
  • taping15
  • transcutaneous electrical nerve stimulation (TENS)16
  • education therapy
  • spinal decompression17
  • BOTOX
  • trigger point therapy in general,18 but especially dry needling19
  • platelet rich plasma injection20
  • low-level laser therapy21
  • Functional Movement Screening22
  • intrathecal pumps
  • spinal manipulation therapy23
  • opioid medications24
  • orthotics25
  • vibration
  • digital motion x-ray26
  • muscle relaxants
  • NMDA receptor antagonists for back pain
Not much evidence + plenty of confidence = sure, why not?
If a pseudo-quackery treatment was properly proven to be effective one day, then it would no longer be any kind of quackery. If it were proven to be bogus (“evidence of absence”) then it would be demoted to full quackery. But an unstudied shrugger? What’s that?

“Good enough,” apparently.

Pseudo-quackery gets pimped out to patients for many years or even decades, with confidence ranging from “not much” to “extreme.” But it most cases it will be pushed as a “promising” treatment, with varying degrees of informed consent, but offering usually just slight nod to the lack of evidence. And in quite a few cases, it will be sold as real medicine, exactly as though it was already proven, not a word of doubt expressed. In quite a few cases, experimental medicine will be sold as real medicine, just exactly as though it was already proven, not a word of doubt expressed.This is especially the case with the more expensive electro-therapies, where a freelance professional has spent as much as hundreds of thousands of dollars on a piece of “medical” equipment, and must sell treatments hard to pay for it. Shockwave ultrasound and spinal decompression machines are superb examples.

Absence of evidence alone does not pseudo-quackery make, of course. Some of these things probably are medicine, and they will eventually be proven. But the degree to which we just can’t say is a bit shocking. The stock introduction to scientific reviews of virtually all treatments is “there is insufficient evidence to draw conclusions.” This does not apply only to the stuff in left field: we’re talking about the bread and butter treatments of mainstream physical therapy — interventions that consumers and insurers spend billions on every year — as well as stranger and newfangled stuff.

Embrace the uncertainty!
It is said by some that health care would be paralyzed if we could dispense only proven treatments — as alt-med evangelists and critics of evidence-based medicine delight in pointing out.27 Unproven therapies are particularly unavoidable in my former profession: as a massage therapist, I literally could not move a muscle in my office without doing something unproven. What’s an ethical practitioner to do?

Here are simple instructions for converting pseudo-quackery into ethical therapy in just moments:

  1. Look patient in the eye.
  2. Take a deep breath.
  3. Recite the mystical incantation, “I don’t know if this will help you.”
I could protect my patients from my own ignorance only by proactively and candidly emphasizing it. Anything less would have been unethical.

Unfortunately, just saying “I don’t know” seems to be a dying art amongst self-employed therapy mongers. The almighty dollar is the main problem. Most manual therapists are freelancers, and their rent only gets paid when patients return for more. This is all it takes for many practitioners to recommend unproven treatments with just a bit too much enthusiasm. Even just a little bit of normal human ego can do it.

It’s dangerous because it’s not very dangerous
Pseudo-quackery can be mild-mannered and humdrum. No big deal, really. But that’s exactly why it goes largely unexamined.

It is routinely perpetrated by average professionals suffering from a little confirmation bias and a lack of familiarity with the scientific literature. In no case are these people true quacks in the sense a hardened skeptic would use the word — they’re just ordinary professionals who can’t read journals all day long and have bills to pay. Even skeptical patients routinely spend thousands of dollars on false hopes in the gray zone, often spending years in the “therapy grinder.”Their confidence in unproven therapies spans from apathetic assumptions to premature enthusiasm to over-the-top marketing zeal.

And yet if it isn’t the job of a therapist to be openly humble in the face of our awesome ignorance of what really works, then I don’t know what is.

Despite its ho-hum personality, pseudo-quackery is a clear and present danger, particularly to chronic pain patients. Even skeptical patients routinely spend thousands of dollars on false hopes in the gray zone, often spending years in the “therapy grinder,” hammering away expensively at a condition that there was never really much hope of treating in the first place.

Chronic pain patients often feel desperate, and it’s not wrong to cautiously try an experimental treatment method. But very few methods are anywhere near as promising as their marketing makes them seem. Be cynical. Be careful. And beware of professionals who haven’t gotten the memo: humility in treating chronic pain is not just a nicety, but an ethical necessity.
 
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just quoting what a friend swears by is at best inconsequential but at worst outright dangerous. have some proof it will work....

I think there is SOME proof it works.
 
i
One of my good buddies did a fellowship with Chris Centeno and the only thing he does is orthobiologics. He swears by intradiscal stem cells. I can't sit here and debate the topic bc I'm in no position to do that and truly I don't care what anyone's opinion of it is but my buddy swears by it for annular tears and painful discogenic disease. There are other applications for what they do but since we're talking about discogenic pain...

Edit - Lemme add that the PRP and lysate procedures into the interspinous ligaments and facets seems to be pretty effective as well.
i agree intradiscal stem cells have some promise, but I suspect your friend is extremely biased as this is all he does. I would have more trust in a physician that offers all options, not just the ones that pay him the most.......
 
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isn't the natural history for most disc herniations to have gradual reduction in size?

fwiw, one of my colleagues thinks that 2 level fusion is the best treatment for annular tears. oddly enough, he is a spine surgeon.
another person i know thinks that deep tissue laser treatment will heal disc herniations.
almost every chiropractor thinks that spinal decompression or manipulation will cure patient's back pains.
Dr. Oz thinks devil's claw will cure SI pain.


just quoting what a friend swears by is at best inconsequential but at worst outright dangerous. have some proof it will work....

think if this article when you talk to a patient:

Pseudo-quackery in Chronic Pain Care
Wow he bashes about everything PT's do, no?
 
My buddy in question didn't do a Pain fellowship, he did a fellowship with Regenexx and from what I can tell they don't do much other than orthobiologics.

To say there isn't promise with orthobiologics for certain Dx is ludicrous. The jury is still out on various spine Dx but like everything else...give it time...
 
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My buddy in question didn't do a Pain fellowship, he did a fellowship with Regenexx and from what I can tell they don't do much other than orthobiologics.

To say there isn't promise with orthobiologics for certain Dx is ludicrous. The jury is still out on various spine Dx but like everything else...give it time...
Not sure why you even try to argue with some people on this forum...
 
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My buddy in question didn't do a Pain fellowship, he did a fellowship with Regenexx and from what I can tell they don't do much other than orthobiologics.

To say there isn't promise with orthobiologics for certain Dx is ludicrous. The jury is still out on various spine Dx but like everything else...give it time...

:laugh:
 
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Advocate treatment that is evidence based, non biased, and tested against current standard of care, and is statistically better.


If it isn’t, then you shouldn’t be recommending it to patients.

Regenexx began in 2005. 13 years isnt enough time to come up with some evidence other than case reports? The dearth of good studies thus far is telling, to those who are inquisitive...

Your buddy is probably a great regenerative medicine guy, but he’s not a pain doc. You are a pain doc. You are better than him.



Story: I had a patient tell me that he was diagnosed with herniated disc, back in the 60s. Refused surgery. His mom, a nurse, told him to lie on concrete driveway for 2 hours a day during hottest time of day.

Pain went away in a couple of weeks.

I’m not recommending hot concrete therapy, but just saying.......
 
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Advocate treatment that is evidence based, non biased, and tested against current standard of care, and is statistically better.


If it isn’t, then you shouldn’t be recommending it to patients.

Regenexx began in 2005. 13 years isnt enough time to come up with some evidence other than case reports? The dearth of good studies thus far is telling, to those who are inquisitive...

Your buddy is probably a great regenerative medicine guy, but he’s not a pain doc. You are a pain doc. You are better than him.



Story: I had a patient tell me that he was diagnosed with herniated disc, back in the 60s. Refused surgery. His mom, a nurse, told him to lie on concrete driveway for 2 hours a day during hottest time of day.

Pain went away in a couple of weeks.

I’m not recommending hot concrete therapy, but just saying.......

There is no evidence to support the use of orthobiologics. Despite the fact that many ppl swear by it, and it is widely used all over the world, it is all bogus and merely a sham used to make money.

The sports guys at Emory who use it are all full of BS. I've never referred a pt to anyone for PRP, stem cells, anything...Why? I can't promise their $3k will be money well spent. I will bet my penile meatus that in 10 yrs it will be a much better option for ppl.
 
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There is no evidence to support the use of orthobiologics. Despite the fact that many ppl swear by it, and it is widely used all over the world, it is all bogus and merely a sham used to make money.

The sports guys at Emory who use it are all full of BS. I've never referred a pt to anyone for PRP, stem cells, anything...Why? I can't promise their $3k will be money well spent. I will bet my penile meatus that in 10 yrs it will be a much better option for ppl.
Hmm let’s see...”it’s all anecdotal, hearsay, patients are lying, it’s placebo affect because they paid cash for it, no evidence to support it, dumping steroids into spines, burning nerves and electrical stimulation are all way better and the literature is all just so much more substantial to support all of that..”
 
An Active Life Restored, Thanks to Regenerative Medicine
I'm hoping for more evidence as well. Wenchun is pushing the process.

November 2, 2018
An Active Life Restored, Thanks to Regenerative Medicine
By SharingMayoClinic


For years, Rick Amatuzio lived with severe back pain that kept him from the active life he'd always savored. But advanced diagnostic tests and regenerative medicine therapy at Mayo Clinic ultimately led to a complete recovery. Now Rick once again can play sports and enjoy the outdoors free from pain.
A typical weekend for Rick Amatuzio involves playing two rounds of golf, riding his motorcycle and mountain biking. But less than two years ago, the active motocross champion couldn't get out of bed or stand up straight. Debilitating back pain kept him from doing many of the activities he'd once enjoyed.

"I can recall crawling to the bathtub many mornings on my hands and knees in an attempt to loosen my body for the upcoming day," Rick says. "You feel helpless, emptiness, and like there's nowhere to turn for help to improve the situation."

Rick finally found the help he needed when he sought care at Mayo Clinic in 2017. Wenchun Qu, M.D., Ph.D., a specialist in physical medicine and rehabilitation and pain medicine, offered Rick a treatment that involved injecting stem cells into his spine. It worked. Now Rick's pain is gone.

"Dr. Qu is one of the best doctors I've ever seen," Rick says. "He didn't make promises, yet he gave me a lot of hope."

Progressive pain
Rick can trace his back issues to 10 years ago, when the Duluth, Minnesota, resident had spinal fusion surgery to correct a spine condition known as spondylosis. Two years after that surgery, Rick began noticing a dull ache in his lower back that got progressively worse each year until he had a pain level of 7 out of 10 for most of the day.

"I was getting epidural steroid shots, which would help for a month or two, and then the problem would return," Rick says. "I was taking six or eight Tylenol a day."

When the pain kept him from getting more than an hour of sleep at night, Rick's local neurosurgeon, who had performed the spinal fusion, recommended he go to Mayo Clinic to pursue regenerative medicine therapy.

During his first consult with Dr. Qu in May 2017, Rick was diagnosed with a spine disorder known as adjacent segment disease. The disease had developed as a result of his spinal fusion.

"I was getting epidural steroid shots, which would help for a month or two, and then the problem would return. I was taking six or eight Tylenol a day."
Rick Amatuzio
"Adjacent segment disease is when you have a fusion of two vertebrae, and the next level of vertebrae have to move more to compensate, which causes those discs to wear out," Dr. Qu says. "Imaging studies showed he had quite active disease in the discs below the fused discs."

The next step was to do a test called a provocative discography. It could determine whether the worn discs were causing Rick's pain. The test involved injecting contrast dye in the discs to put pressure on them and reproduce the pain he'd been feeling. Test results confirmed the pain was coming from Rick's degenerated discs.

To treat Rick's condition, Dr. Qu recommended an approach that used regenerative medicine. Unlike traditional treatment for adjacent segment disease that destroy the discs by burning or fusing them, Dr. Qu would treat the disc degeneration with therapy to reduce the inflammation that was responsible for Rick's pain.

"Stem cells have growth factors which activate the dormant cells indigenous to the disc and restore the health of the disc by reducing inflammation," Dr. Qu says. "If you reduce inflammation, you reduce pain."

Outstanding outcome
On Sept. 28, 2017, Rick returned to Mayo Clinic's Rochester campus to have a combination of platelet-rich plasma and bone marrow aspirate concentrate injected into his spine. The benefit from the treatment was not immediate. In fact, Rick's pain become worse before he saw significant improvement — an outcome that was not unprecedented, according to Dr. Qu.

"It takes about two months, or even longer, to see the treatment effect, and I have seen low-level inflammatory responses in between," he says.

But throughout that period, Rick felt the support of his Mayo Clinic care team. "Dr. Qu and his team stood with me and helped me through the process," he says. "They would call or email frequently to see how I was doing."

"I am extremely grateful for Dr. Qu and Mayo Clinic. They have given me my life back."
Rick Amatuzio
By the time he celebrated his 44th birthday in March, Rick was feeling much better. Since then, he's lost 30 pounds and can now carry his golf bag for 36 holes without pain. He says it's the best he's felt in 12 years.

"I wake up in the morning, and I can stand up straight easily. The burning pain in my back and the back of my legs is gone. I can sleep through the night. I can go out with my friends without discomfort. I work out every morning. I can go mountain biking," Rick says. "I am extremely grateful for Dr. Qu and Mayo Clinic. They have given me my life back. Every day is a blessing that I can do the activities I enjoy doing."
 
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An Active Life Restored, Thanks to Regenerative Medicine
I'm hoping for more evidence as well. Wenchun is pushing the process.

November 2, 2018
An Active Life Restored, Thanks to Regenerative Medicine
By SharingMayoClinic


For years, Rick Amatuzio lived with severe back pain that kept him from the active life he'd always savored. But advanced diagnostic tests and regenerative medicine therapy at Mayo Clinic ultimately led to a complete recovery. Now Rick once again can play sports and enjoy the outdoors free from pain.
A typical weekend for Rick Amatuzio involves playing two rounds of golf, riding his motorcycle and mountain biking. But less than two years ago, the active motocross champion couldn't get out of bed or stand up straight. Debilitating back pain kept him from doing many of the activities he'd once enjoyed.

"I can recall crawling to the bathtub many mornings on my hands and knees in an attempt to loosen my body for the upcoming day," Rick says. "You feel helpless, emptiness, and like there's nowhere to turn for help to improve the situation."

Rick finally found the help he needed when he sought care at Mayo Clinic in 2017. Wenchun Qu, M.D., Ph.D., a specialist in physical medicine and rehabilitation and pain medicine, offered Rick a treatment that involved injecting stem cells into his spine. It worked. Now Rick's pain is gone.

"Dr. Qu is one of the best doctors I've ever seen," Rick says. "He didn't make promises, yet he gave me a lot of hope."

Progressive pain
Rick can trace his back issues to 10 years ago, when the Duluth, Minnesota, resident had spinal fusion surgery to correct a spine condition known as spondylosis. Two years after that surgery, Rick began noticing a dull ache in his lower back that got progressively worse each year until he had a pain level of 7 out of 10 for most of the day.

"I was getting epidural steroid shots, which would help for a month or two, and then the problem would return," Rick says. "I was taking six or eight Tylenol a day."

When the pain kept him from getting more than an hour of sleep at night, Rick's local neurosurgeon, who had performed the spinal fusion, recommended he go to Mayo Clinic to pursue regenerative medicine therapy.

During his first consult with Dr. Qu in May 2017, Rick was diagnosed with a spine disorder known as adjacent segment disease. The disease had developed as a result of his spinal fusion.

"I was getting epidural steroid shots, which would help for a month or two, and then the problem would return. I was taking six or eight Tylenol a day."
Rick Amatuzio
"Adjacent segment disease is when you have a fusion of two vertebrae, and the next level of vertebrae have to move more to compensate, which causes those discs to wear out," Dr. Qu says. "Imaging studies showed he had quite active disease in the discs below the fused discs."

The next step was to do a test called a provocative discography. It could determine whether the worn discs were causing Rick's pain. The test involved injecting contrast dye in the discs to put pressure on them and reproduce the pain he'd been feeling. Test results confirmed the pain was coming from Rick's degenerated discs.

To treat Rick's condition, Dr. Qu recommended an approach that used regenerative medicine. Unlike traditional treatment for adjacent segment disease that destroy the discs by burning or fusing them, Dr. Qu would treat the disc degeneration with therapy to reduce the inflammation that was responsible for Rick's pain.

"Stem cells have growth factors which activate the dormant cells indigenous to the disc and restore the health of the disc by reducing inflammation," Dr. Qu says. "If you reduce inflammation, you reduce pain."

Outstanding outcome
On Sept. 28, 2017, Rick returned to Mayo Clinic's Rochester campus to have a combination of platelet-rich plasma and bone marrow aspirate concentrate injected into his spine. The benefit from the treatment was not immediate. In fact, Rick's pain become worse before he saw significant improvement — an outcome that was not unprecedented, according to Dr. Qu.

"It takes about two months, or even longer, to see the treatment effect, and I have seen low-level inflammatory responses in between," he says.

But throughout that period, Rick felt the support of his Mayo Clinic care team. "Dr. Qu and his team stood with me and helped me through the process," he says. "They would call or email frequently to see how I was doing."

"I am extremely grateful for Dr. Qu and Mayo Clinic. They have given me my life back."
Rick Amatuzio
By the time he celebrated his 44th birthday in March, Rick was feeling much better. Since then, he's lost 30 pounds and can now carry his golf bag for 36 holes without pain. He says it's the best he's felt in 12 years.

"I wake up in the morning, and I can stand up straight easily. The burning pain in my back and the back of my legs is gone. I can sleep through the night. I can go out with my friends without discomfort. I work out every morning. I can go mountain biking," Rick says. "I am extremely grateful for Dr. Qu and Mayo Clinic. They have given me my life back. Every day is a blessing that I can do the activities I enjoy doing."
“He’s lying, he was desperate and was reaching for something, his psych meds finally kicked it, this doctor at mayo is a money hungry hack who manipulated the patient into believing in snake oil...” etc etc

Or how bout this one..of course his prior treatment didn’t work..because he had adjacent segment disease so he most certainly would have gotten better by mbb/rfa, or wait maybe venom or cooled rfa of his sij..that would have definitely worked right?
 
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“He’s lying, he was desperate and was reaching for something, his psych meds finally kicked it, this doctor at mayo is a money hungry hack who manipulated the patient into believing in snake oil...” etc etc

Or how bout this one..of course his prior treatment didn’t work..because he had adjacent segment disease so he most certainly would have gotten better by mbb/rfa, or wait maybe venom or cooled rfa of his sij..that would have definitely worked right?

You clearly forgot 8th grade science. N of 1 is an N of none. No conclusions can be made based on this other than 1 guy got better. Great ad for the stupid sheeples. As a doc, you should be wiser. Should.
 
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You clearly forgot 8th grade science. N of 1 is an N of none. No conclusions can be made based on this other than 1 guy got better. Great ad for the stupid sheeples. As a doc, you should be wiser. Should.

Except there's not an n=1, there is an n of many, many more. We all agree that we would like much more data and evidence but to dismiss this outright is foolhardy.

Edit - Earlier in this thread I said I would bet my penile meatus that the evidence will grow stronger for orthobiologics but i want to go back and recant that statement...I could end up being very wrong here and that seems like an unfair price for me to pay for being duped...
 
Except there's not an n=1, there is an n of many, many more. We all agree that we would like much more data and evidence but to dismiss this outright is foolhardy.

OOps, you misunderstand. Science requires a scientific method. Hypothesis, research design, experimentation, adjust hypothesis, plausible possibility, etc. I can correct it and make it N's of 1. But the many, many more are not more than a repeated experiment with an N of 1.
 
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OOps, you misunderstand. Science requires a scientific method. Hypothesis, research design, experimentation, adjust hypothesis, plausible possibility, etc. I can correct it and make it N's of 1. But the many, many more are not more than a repeated experiment with an N of 1.

Just like using a parachute is an n=1.

Are you saying that orthobiologics do not work at all, or just spine?
 
Just like using a parachute is an n=1.

Are you saying that orthobiologics do not work at all, or just spine?
Im saying they might not work better than placebo and we lack reasonably good data to support their use outside of controlled trials.

A new shop selling widgets on every corner. North cobb regenerative medicine has full page ads in local paper. Check their website. Find the red flags?
 
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Im saying they might not work better than placebo and we lack reasonably good data to support their use outside of controlled trials.

A new shop selling widgets on every corner. North cobb regenerative medicine has full page ads in local paper. Check their website. Find the red flags?

Tons of ppl hawking growth factors and irradiated tissue products as "stem cells." I get that, but no one is talking about the products that nurses inject in a chiropractor's offices or the many quacks out there who will come to your house and give you a vitamin infusion with facial Botox.

There are a LOT of very legitimate ppl out there getting good results with various products.

Why would you automatically assume anyone in this conversation is referring to anything that isn't above board?

Did you ever listen to the podcast that Ken Mautner and Gerry Malanga did about stem cells, PRP, etc? It is pretty good. As a resident at Emory I worked with him and he frequently did all sorts of stuff with PRP, fat grafts (Lipogems), BMAC, etc. I have forgotten anything I ever learned back then but I can tell you by and large his pts did pretty darn good. But I guess I similarly did the same thing his pts did, and that was fall for his slipperiness.

I hope he realizes he is staking the reputation of his fellowship on this field of quackery and mischief.

There are absolutely indications for these products and they are frequently used with success...I wish I could say that about epidurals...You choose a perfect candidate and nothing happens.

These two guys here are less qualified, less intelligent, and sadly MUCH LESS ethical than you.

Listen to Regenerative Medicine. An interview with Dr. Gerry Malanga and Ken Mautner by cardiffdoc #np on #SoundCloud
 
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My buddy in question didn't do a Pain fellowship, he did a fellowship with Regenexx and from what I
OOps, you misunderstand. Science requires a scientific method. Hypothesis, research design, experimentation, adjust hypothesis, plausible possibility, etc. I can correct it and make it N's of 1. But the many, many more are not more than a repeated experiment with an N of 1.

Not sure on the attribution but perhaps the trite phrase you are looking for is “The plural of anecdote is not evidence”?
 
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Regen medicine does not work.

It is all a huge cash grab.

Seriously...Yall are nuts...
 
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The irony of you posting that video is not lost on me...
 
Had a local guy -PMR guy trained at emory with some type of "fellowship" -set up shop in a chiro office doing only stem cells. Met him. Super unimpressive doc. Lasted about a year before chiro fired him then pushed him out of town with noncompete and nastygrams from PI attorney co owner of said chiro clinic. All the regen med docs are really in medicine for all the right reasons.
 
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Right. So if I mentioned any one of the dozens and dozens of appropriately trained Pain doctors that have gone to prison I could do exactly what you did, and then say that pain doctors are all in it for the right reasons...

Also I may know who you are talking about...Is this the guy who did a TED video on stem cells?

Legitimate doctors in the field of orthobiologics want ppl like him gone as much as you do. Centeno goes after those guys nearly every day.

Edit - No one is as unethical as Spaulding Rehab...No one...Greed and a wanton disregard for evidence...

Regenerative Medicine | Spaulding Rehabilitation Network
 
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Not certain about TED talk. Only know about this doc as I was asked to be an paid expert witness as to what constitutes pain medicine by the chiro/atty when they were enforcing the noncompete. I declined as I do not testify against other docs. Money is not everything and bad karma.

I do regen med and I think my first PRP case was 2009. Have had successes and failures. Telling everyone regen med is a panacea and not trying less expensive traditional options first is what has set this field back. There is no reason to be a regen med "expert" in the community medicine setting. Too limited of a field.

I do not have ax to grind with Emory pain fellowship. Training has to be 1000X better than 10 years ago when it was a PMR based "pain fellowship" that was located in a strip mall -pokes for percs- clinic under the supervision of a single doc now in jail for fraud.
 
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Not certain about TED talk. Only know about this doc as I was asked to be an paid expert witness as to what constitutes pain medicine by the chiro/atty when they were enforcing the noncompete. I declined as I do not testify against other docs. Money is not everything and bad karma.

I do regen med and I think my first PRP case was 2009. Have had successes and failures. Telling everyone regen med is a panacea and not trying less expensive traditional options first is what has set this field back. There is no reason to be a regen med "expert" in the community medicine setting. Too limited of a field.

I do not have ax to grind with Emory pain fellowship. Training has to be 1000X better than 10 years ago when it was a PMR based "pain fellowship" that was located in a strip mall -pokes for percs- clinic under the supervision of a single doc now in jail for fraud.
Don’t think anyone has suggested it is a panacea..no one is advocating jumping directly to it without discussing all the alternatives. I gotta be honest, the very small percentage of my practice that is regen, the office visits with these patients prior to consideration are very long and back me up for the whole day. It’s probably more financially rewarding for me to burn through more patients in an office setting than from what I’m getting with what I charge for regen..
 
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no one is saying that regenerative medicine does not have its place in the pantheon of chronic pain treatments.

do you lack the basic scientific ethos to understand what is being stated?


before we, as a specialty, tout that orthobiologics help, we, as a specialty, need evidence more than the lowest possible form (ie case reports, which are what all of these are) to promote them.

in fact, I would say that I currently do tout regenerative medicine, per drusso's definition, when it comes to epidural blood patches.

I may actually suggest that PRP for SI joints might be possible to tout, based on the previous study I posted.

but please, if you think that it is okay to tout orthobiologics for such things such as spine, post any prospective double blind nonbiased (the hardest criteria to attain) study to let us review, before giving patients false hope.
 
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Not certain about TED talk. Only know about this doc as I was asked to be an paid expert witness as to what constitutes pain medicine by the chiro/atty when they were enforcing the noncompete. I declined as I do not testify against other docs. Money is not everything and bad karma.

I do regen med and I think my first PRP case was 2009. Have had successes and failures. Telling everyone regen med is a panacea and not trying less expensive traditional options first is what has set this field back. There is no reason to be a regen med "expert" in the community medicine setting. Too limited of a field.

I do not have ax to grind with Emory pain fellowship. Training has to be 1000X better than 10 years ago when it was a PMR based "pain fellowship" that was located in a strip mall -pokes for percs- clinic under the supervision of a single doc now in jail for fraud.

If this is the guy who is now in practice in NJ, and previously was in Colorado, he never did an Emory fellowship of any kind. I know this for a fact. He was a worthless resident as well.
 
Definitely would be a massive breakthrough in pain management.
 
Way too early to tout. . Not a new study, it’s a phase 1/2 (out of at least 3) clinical trial, with very small group size. 24 patients, and is a press release. A way to get more angel investors, I suppose.

Hold any judgement and not really tout until phase 3 trials done, pls...

I find it very interesting that, of all the online reports I found, none separated out the patients treated with CybroCell alone from those who got CybroCell with PRP.

Maybe it was all due to effects of the PRP and not their fibroblasts!!
 
no one is saying that regenerative medicine does not have its place in the pantheon of chronic pain treatments.

do you lack the basic scientific ethos to understand what is being stated?


before we, as a specialty, tout that orthobiologics help, we, as a specialty, need evidence more than the lowest possible form (ie case reports, which are what all of these are) to promote them.

in fact, I would say that I currently do tout regenerative medicine, per drusso's definition, when it comes to epidural blood patches.

I may actually suggest that PRP for SI joints might be possible to tout, based on the previous study I posted.

but please, if you think that it is okay to tout orthobiologics for such things such as spine, post any prospective double blind nonbiased (the hardest criteria to attain) study to let us review, before giving patients false hope.

@Ducttape Have you ever attended IOF? These are the conversations we sit around and have...it's a science-based professional society with excellent CME.

Controversies in Orthobiologics

 
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isn't the natural history for most disc herniations to have gradual reduction in size?

fwiw, one of my colleagues thinks that 2 level fusion is the best treatment for annular tears. oddly enough, he is a spine surgeon.
another person i know thinks that deep tissue laser treatment will heal disc herniations.
almost every chiropractor thinks that spinal decompression or manipulation will cure patient's back pains.
Dr. Oz thinks devil's claw will cure SI pain.


just quoting what a friend swears by is at best inconsequential but at worst outright dangerous. have some proof it will work....

think if this article when you talk to a patient:

Pseudo-quackery in Chronic Pain Care


Conservatively treated massive prolapsed discs: a 7-year follow-up
 
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I think this is a very good point to remember. I was sued for delaying surgery in a patient with a large disk herniation without neuro deficits. I had to dig up all the literature I could find on this topic and yes, the bigger the herniation, the more likely it is to resorb. I tell patients this all the time. Of course if they have weakness they're going to the surgeon

In your opinion, if patient has weakness, even with new onset weakness< two weeks, is that ticket straight to surgeon? I tend to follow closely, ~7-10 days and monitor for improving strength. If no improvement, then surgical consult.
 
In your opinion, if patient has weakness, even with new onset weakness< two weeks, is that ticket straight to surgeon? I tend to follow closely, ~7-10 days and monitor for improving strength. If no improvement, then surgical consult.

no. weakness does not necessarily equal a surgical referral
 
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In your opinion, if patient has weakness, even with new onset weakness< two weeks, is that ticket straight to surgeon? I tend to follow closely, ~7-10 days and monitor for improving strength. If no improvement, then surgical consult.
Yeah I've gone back and forth on this. Good to hear others opinis
 
If there is neurological deficit as pronounced as weakness, I refer to surgery and depending on the situation typically schedule an epidural. If they need advice on whether to proceed with surgery when they return I tell them they may want to try one or two epidurals (if we haven't already done one) and give it a little time to see what happens before jumping the gun. That way I'm providing access to resources but I'm also providing my own treatment and giving some experienced reasonable medical advice, which is what they came seeking. That's what I would want done for me.
 
Stable weakness I manage. Progressive weakness goes to surgery.
 
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