Disconnect between verbal feedback and eval

[speedyk]

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I busted my butt on my surgery rotation. I received positive affirmations and increased responsibility over time, moreso than other students. I asked for verbal feedback and was told that I could be more proactive in the OR but my pt management skills and notes were excellent.

Anyway, I just got my eval which was a Pass and I am super PO'd. The most aggravating thing is that I don't even know what I should have done differently other than the valid negative comment that I received (and attempted to correct thereafter). Honestly it has really shaken my confidence. How do I determine if I have a problem with self-awareness of my performance? Do other people have experience with this?

 

[username456789]

What's your scoring system? Is there a high pass option? Or is it just H/P/F.

 

[OveractiveBrain]

I busted my butt on my surgery rotation. I received positive affirmations and increased responsibility over time, moreso than other students. I asked for verbal feedback and was told that I could be more proactive in the OR but my pt management skills and notes were excellent.

Anyway, I just got my eval which was a Pass and I am super PO'd. The most aggravating thing is that I don't even know what I should have done differently other than the valid negative comment that I received (and attempted to correct thereafter). Honestly it has really shaken my confidence. How do I determine if I have a problem with self-awareness of my performance? Do other people have experience with this?

Yep. Surgery blows.

There are a couple of reasons why this happens.

1. The people giving you good verbal feedback are not the same people doing your grading (residents vs attending)

2. Some people believe that medical student evaluations are not worth their time, so mark 3/5 for everything.

3. How bad was that valid negative comment? If you've done something to really piss of a resident, and even though the attending thought you did a pretty good job, that resident can actually request your grade be lowered. Or worse, influence the attending so you get a low grade.

I take it this is your first rotation? If so, you might only be at the level of a pass. If you read JDH's reply to my concept of grading, you will see two very different perspectives. Recognize that subjective grading is just that. Subjective.

I suppose you could always talk to the evaluator or to your clerkship director, but I've found (in surgery particularly) that the administration is generally not sympathetic to students whining about a subjective evaluation. Not that you are necessarily whining about a bad grade, but that is is how they will see it.

Debate on grading

 

[speedyk]

What's your scoring system? Is there a high pass option? Or is it just H/P/F.

Yes, there is a high pass option which I would have been satisfied with.

 

[DrBowtie]

Add #4. Most people feel uncomfortable giving negative feedback face to face.
This scenario will replay many times over during third year.

 

[speedyk]

Yep. Surgery blows.

There are a couple of reasons why this happens.

1. The people giving you good verbal feedback are not the same people doing your grading (residents vs attending)

2. Some people believe that medical student evaluations are not worth their time, so mark 3/5 for everything.

3. How bad was that valid negative comment? If you've done something to really piss of a resident, and even though the attending thought you did a pretty good job, that resident can actually request your grade be lowered. Or worse, influence the attending so you get a low grade.

I take it this is your first rotation? If so, you might only be at the level of a pass. If you read JDH's reply to my concept of grading, you will see two very different perspectives. Recognize that subjective grading is just that. Subjective.

I suppose you could always talk to the evaluator or to your clerkship director, but I've found (in surgery particularly) that the administration is generally not sympathetic to students whining about a subjective evaluation. Not that you are necessarily whining about a bad grade, but that is is how they will see it.

Debate on grading

1. Verbal feedback and eval from the same person.

2. Yup they just marked 3/5 on everything and the only comment was "good personality and work ethic"

3. The negative verbal comment was that I could be more proactive in the OR. I never did anything to offend anyone, was always on time, always prepared for rounds, got notes in, followed up on the patient plan, etc. The only time I was told I did something wrong was when I mis-used a term with a specific meaning in rounds. Other than that I did not really mess anything up.

It was my 1st rotation and I would agree that I would be at a pass level when not taking that into account. I guess it just bothers me that other students got honors/high pass when I feel my work was just as good, if not better and I had more responsibilities than they did.

But you are right, whining won't accomplish anything. In addition to having no chance at a career in surgery now, I just wonder if I have a self-awareness problem?

 

[drizzt3117]

1. Verbal feedback and eval from the same person.

2. Yup they just marked 3/5 on everything and the only comment was "good personality and work ethic"

3. The negative verbal comment was that I could be more proactive in the OR. I never did anything to offend anyone, was always on time, always prepared for rounds, got notes in, followed up on the patient plan, etc. The only time I was told I did something wrong was when I mis-used a term with a specific meaning in rounds. Other than that I did not really mess anything up.

It was my 1st rotation and I would agree that I would be at a pass level when not taking that into account. I guess it just bothers me that other students got honors/high pass when I feel my work was just as good, if not better and I had more responsibilities than they did.

welcome to 3rd year.

 

[speedyk]

Add #4. Most people feel uncomfortable giving negative feedback face to face.
This scenario will replay many times over during third year.

Fair enough. But even still now, I don't know what exactly I did wrong other than I could have asked to do more.

 

[speedyk]

welcome to 3rd year.

I was actually enjoying it too even though it's a lot more work than the first 2 years... now I have to worry about being in the bottom of the class and not matching into anything.

 

[turkeyjerky]

I was actually enjoying it too even though it's a lot more work than the first 2 years... now I have to worry about being in the bottom of the class and not matching into anything.

I really wouldn't worry about it quite that much; yes it sucks, but it really won't have as big an impact on your future as you're making it out to be. Sure, it's not the best way to start your application for a surgery residency, but if that's what you want why were you taking surgery first anyway? Even if it turns out you do want surgery, it's not the end of the world--take a couple of subI's next may/june/july and nail them. Focus on the rest of your rotations and get a few honors so you'll be able to say "it was my first rotation and I up'ed my performance from then on."

I know it sucks man, and I'm sure you didn't really deserve the grade you got. Everyone get stuck w/ a ******* filling out their eval once or twice, but in the end it tends to average out. Use this as a learning opportunity on how to get a good grade based on factors that really shouldn't matter--find out who's going to be doing your eval at the beginning of the rotation and focus on impressing him/her, not just your residents. Don't be afraid to speak up and be aggressive, just don't be a douche; know your place and when to disappear, but also know how to be visible and appearing to contribute.

3rd year is such a clusterf_ck...

 

[deleted263296]

Be prepared for more of the same. When it's your turn to do the same to other students, repay the favor.

 

[ArcGurren]

I really wouldn't worry about it quite that much; yes it sucks, but it really won't have as big an impact on your future as you're making it out to be. Sure, it's not the best way to start your application for a surgery residency, but if that's what you want why were you taking surgery first anyway? Even if it turns out you do want surgery, it's not the end of the world--take a couple of subI's next may/june/july and nail them. Focus on the rest of your rotations and get a few honors so you'll be able to say "it was my first rotation and I up'ed my performance from then on."

I know it sucks man, and I'm sure you didn't really deserve the grade you got. Everyone get stuck w/ a ******* filling out their eval once or twice, but in the end it tends to average out. Use this as a learning opportunity on how to get a good grade based on factors that really shouldn't matter--find out who's going to be doing your eval at the beginning of the rotation and focus on impressing him/her, not just your residents. Don't be afraid to speak up and be aggressive, just don't be a douche; know your place and when to disappear, but also know how to be visible and appearing to contribute.

3rd year is such a clusterf_ck...

Agreed with the essence of this, but I wouldn't go to lengths to suck the metaphorical **** of the attending by trying to be super-aggressive. I would say it crosses the line when you start trying to make other people look bad. Just my two cents.

 

[ArcGurren]

Be prepared for more of the same. When it's your turn to do the same to other students, repay the favor.

Um, no. This is a vicious cycle (assuming you're not trolling) and you should not stoop to the level of the dickheads who made your life miserable.

 

[speedyk]

I really wouldn't worry about it quite that much; yes it sucks, but it really won't have as big an impact on your future as you're making it out to be. Sure, it's not the best way to start your application for a surgery residency, but if that's what you want why were you taking surgery first anyway? Even if it turns out you do want surgery, it's not the end of the world--take a couple of subI's next may/june/july and nail them. Focus on the rest of your rotations and get a few honors so you'll be able to say "it was my first rotation and I up'ed my performance from then on."

I know it sucks man, and I'm sure you didn't really deserve the grade you got. Everyone get stuck w/ a ******* filling out their eval once or twice, but in the end it tends to average out. Use this as a learning opportunity on how to get a good grade based on factors that really shouldn't matter--find out who's going to be doing your eval at the beginning of the rotation and focus on impressing him/her, not just your residents. Don't be afraid to speak up and be aggressive, just don't be a douche; know your place and when to disappear, but also know how to be visible and appearing to contribute.

3rd year is such a clusterf_ck...

Fair enough. I did surgery first because I wanted to know if I was really interested in it before setting up my 4th year which we have to do in October (which is earlier than most schools I think). My adviser told me to do what you are most interested in first.

You are right though and I appreciate the comment and advice.

 

[speedyk]

Um, no. This is a vicious cycle (assuming you're not trolling) and you should not stoop to the level of the dickheads who made your life miserable.

Yeah, I agree. Plus not all evaluators are like this... some of my peers got really thoughtful and detailed feedback.

 

[ArcGurren]

Fair enough. I did surgery first because I wanted to know if I was really interested in it before setting up my 4th year which we have to do in October (which is earlier than most schools I think). My adviser told me to do what you are most interested in first.

You are right though and I appreciate the comment and advice.

That's awful, October?? Way too soon.

 

[turkeyjerky]

That's awful, October?? Way too soon.

We schedule our third and fourth year rotations at the same time--talk about a $hit-show

 

[officedepot]

OP, dude don't let one bad eval make you not want to do what you want (surgery). So if you really like it then keep doing it. Again evals are random and that crap happens to everyone. If you like the OR and those types of operations then do surgery despite what any eval says. Same exact thing happened to me on surgery. Straight 3/5s. None too pleased. Hopefully your clerkship director understands this is what is done and will adjust the grades.


Now for future reference on things I have learned more about: ask what your supervisor's expectations are for the student pretty much up front without sounding like all you care about is the eval. But yeah this kinda stuff works. See what they expect of you and then do that plus a little more and you should hopefully get a good eval in the end. It will prevent any miscommunication and help you know what to do. Lots of people don't do this and get stuck doing tons of crap they weren't even expected to do anyway...

 

[OveractiveBrain]

Add #4. Most people feel uncomfortable giving negative feedback face to face.
This scenario will replay many times over during third year.

I do forget this. I insist on being called by my first name (not DOCTOR whatever) and purposefully make personal connections with students. I also have regularly scheduled evaluations with students. Its a time to review all 8 core competencies of a physician, with a special emphasis on "the stuff you did the most well" and "the stuff you need the most improvement on." I sometimes forget that other residents are uncomfortable giving out meaningful advice for fear that people "won't like them."

Sad really. The people in charge of medical students' education need to be tought more than just "what medicine to do" and emphasize "how to teach, how to evaluate, and how to inspire."

MY two cents.

 

[OveractiveBrain]

Add #4. Most people feel uncomfortable giving negative feedback face to face.
This scenario will replay many times over during third year.

I do forget this. I insist on being called by my first name (not DOCTOR whatever) and purposefully make personal connections with students. I also have regularly scheduled evaluations with students. Its a time to review all 8 core competencies of a physician, with a special emphasis on "the stuff you did the most well" and "the stuff you need the most improvement on." I sometimes forget that other residents are uncomfortable giving out meaningful advice for fear that people "won't like them."

Sad really. The people in charge of medical students' education need to be tought more than just "what medicine to do" and emphasize "how to teach, how to evaluate, and how to inspire."

It will reoccur throughout third year but should not. OP, if you really did what you said you did, then there is nothing else that could have been done. Surgery is most notorious for this behavior. Don't let it get you down.

MY two cents.

 

[Jolie South]

I do forget this. I insist on being called by my first name (not DOCTOR whatever) and purposefully make personal connections with students. I also have regularly scheduled evaluations with students. Its a time to review all 8 core competencies of a physician, with a special emphasis on "the stuff you did the most well" and "the stuff you need the most improvement on." I sometimes forget that other residents are uncomfortable giving out meaningful advice for fear that people "won't like them."

Sad really. The people in charge of medical students' education need to be tought more than just "what medicine to do" and emphasize "how to teach, how to evaluate, and how to inspire."

It will reoccur throughout third year but should not. OP, if you really did what you said you did, then there is nothing else that could have been done. Surgery is most notorious for this behavior. Don't let it get you down.

MY two cents.

I disagree. I've found that surgeons are the only people that have the balls to tell you at the moment that you do something idiotic, "Don't do that. It's idiotic." It may not come out in the most appropriate, eloquent way, but it gets the job done. Then, you have time to improve.

This is in contrast to peds where everyone craps rainbows and tells you how great you are only to say how mediocre you are on your evals.