Discoverpodiatry.org

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Just shameful. Surgery! Also I love how at the very end they talk about salary and then list numbers for podiatry but says oh it varies based on MD specialty.... But conveniently doesn't give those ranges 90% of which will be higher than podiatry.
Oh did I mention surgery?
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The deceit here is just breathtaking....
 
As the local MD surgical specialist, here’s my take.

I got a good chuckle when I saw that they cite Ziprecruiter. Their points on the MD side do have some (small) kernels of truth.

Faster to finish and less competitive, agreed. They’re actually being generous on our training time since it can be longer if you do research years. If fellowship becomes a more common thing you folks are at ophtho and OB length though. Salaries do vary widely between and within specialties.

You folks have more pod specific third and fourth year rotations, but also do off service rotations at around our rate in residency, so I’d call it a wash.

The average and range of salaries they give fits for the starting ophtho market, but we’re notorious for low beginning pay. Those numbers are basically what academics or the VA would shell out, maybe a touch higher. (Hint: low end of the market.) I think that’s the case for the other fields as well.

Where’s the big focus on ancillary income coming from? That’s almost exclusively if you’re a partner in PP and that’s dying across the board. It’s a nice perk, but relatively concentrated, and even if you do get some of it as an employee it will be watered down.
 
pod squad said:
Saying pod school is 'less competitive' than MD/DO is like saying a Toyota Camry is 'less fast' than a Ferrari. Objectively true but doesn't begin to describe the difference.
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I’m not here to punch down, but that idea can be very attractive to prospective students. Don’t want to have to get that MCAT to whatever goal it is now? Don’t want to have to have great grades and Step 2 score and research and connections and still have an 80% or lower chance of getting a residency? Want to SURGERY? Not hard to find some takers.

If you want even worse prospects, go look at the dental forums. They’ve got schools rocking $570k COAs, and if you want to specialize you usually pay for your residency too. Possibly $1M to work 6 days a week at a corporate office or associate mill to try to break $200k.

Heck, optometry school is somewhere near $300k COA with a pretty good chance of working in retail for maybe $125k. Hopefully they don’t start a chain of MyFootDr.’s.
 
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eyeeye_captain said:
Want to SURGERY?
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This is the bait and switch of podiatry. Surgery is such a minor part of what we do, that if the colleges are going to recruit pre-health students who want to operate 8 days a week, you're going to create malcontents 5-10 years down the road.

In case you're wondering what podiatry would look like if we divorce ourselves from surgery, this is an interesting webpage to review.
 
I am legitimately pissed. They can post whatever bullsh¡t salary they want and nobody can fact check it? 215-350 grand?!? Can you at least add the caveat that 95% of new grads won’t touch HALF of that salary for their first 3 years out?!?
It’s dishonest.
 
eyeeye_captain said:
The old saying stays true: OR for the thrills, clinic for the bills
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As a new grad pp, couldnt agree more.

Some people who walk in genuinely need surgery.
Most don't in my area.

The some who need it are also 90% train wrecks.
Happy to pass those patients on to our hospital based DPMs who can provide better care with the resources available.
 
Weirdy said:
As a new grad pp, couldnt agree more.

Some people who walk in genuinely need surgery.
Most don't in my area.

The some who need it are also 90% train wrecks.
Happy to pass those patients on to our hospital based DPMs who can provide better care with the resources available.
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I feel all of this. Also, financially, being in the OR in PP is a loser. If you totally love operating and that makes it worthwhile, good on you, it’s needed but not as often as people think. But for the sake of the young’uns including yourself, this is why it’s still important to pick up on billing and know what your numbers are.

I’m pretty busy both in clinic and the OR. The day I spend in the OR, which is 20% of my schedule, generates ~9% of my collections. That basically equates to me taking a 60% pay cut to operate. I could have a fully booked day and still only make 80% of an average office day. Plus you add stress and liability.
 
eyeeye_captain said:
I feel all of this. Also, financially, being in the OR in PP is a loser. If you totally love operating and that makes it worthwhile, good on you, it’s needed but not as often as people think. But for the sake of the young’uns including yourself, this is why it’s still important to pick up on billing and know what your numbers are.

I’m pretty busy both in clinic and the OR. The day I spend in the OR, which is 20% of my schedule, generates ~9% of my collections. That basically equates to me taking a 60% pay cut to operate. I could have a fully booked day and still only make 80% of an average office day. Plus you add stress and liability.
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I'm sorry but The point of going into podiatry is become a surgeon via the back door. This is our whole marketing strategy.
 
eyeeye_captain said:
I feel all of this. Also, financially, being in the OR in PP is a loser. If you totally love operating and that makes it worthwhile, good on you, it’s needed but not as often as people think. But for the sake of the young’uns including yourself, this is why it’s still important to pick up on billing and know what your numbers are.

I’m pretty busy both in clinic and the OR. The day I spend in the OR, which is 20% of my schedule, generates ~9% of my collections. That basically equates to me taking a 60% pay cut to operate. I could have a fully booked day and still only make 80% of an average office day. Plus you add stress and liability.
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No I get it.

Part of not operating hits my ego.
Do all this crazy training in residency no sweat. Get out in the real world, I find myself being less aggressive with surgery.
I don't have the real world volume right now to feel confident in the OR.
Skill atrophy is real.
My PD used to say if you can't meet your numbers within 2-3 years to submit for boards, you shouldn't be cutting.
I get why he said that now.

Love clinic but forsaking surgery feels like I'm doing my referral base a disservice? Or maybe its just purely an ego thing where I'm not using the training I went through and it feels like a waste?
Or maybe its just the straight up fear of not operating in a long time and shying away from it.

Regardless of inner feelings- the cases I've done have been a huge time sink with little ROI as a new grad.

Edit: Havn't shared this with anyone else cause it makes me look like a wimp but you guys hate the mods on here anyways so why not. We're all internet strangers in the same hole.
 
So maybe that's the message to prehealth students: "Be a podiatrist, become a surgeon, do the hardest, most poorly reimbursed work there is." Perhaps discoverpodiatry.org is a very subtle satire on the state of podiatric economics that we've all missed. Perhaps it's all one big troll?
 
eyeeye_captain said:
I feel all of this. Also, financially, being in the OR in PP is a loser. If you totally love operating and that makes it worthwhile, good on you, it’s needed but not as often as people think....
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Podiatry is very saturated, though. For us, it helps to take whatever we can get: surgery/injuries/ortho, toenail/derm, insoles/braces, wound care.

For most MD procedure/surg specialties, you will be crazy busy and profitable regardless of much/little/no OR surgery... but podiatry has 20k docs (and growing, now more new schools) out there to compete with. That's more than nearly any MD surgeon type - even general and ortho (way more than uro, ophtho, plastic, ent, etc).

...I am pretty good at OR, but the main reason I do it is so I can offer nearly all foot/ankle services and PCPs just keep sending. If I tried to just do nails and derm and that stuff, I'd lose refers from at least half my sources (which includes other podiatrists nearby who don't or can't operate). If it's a multi-pod group, you want at least one or two being competent for the OR stuff (doesn't have to be all... probably shouldn't due to OR volume relatively low in most pod refer bases).
 
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Not sure how common this is for pods, but I’ve heard operating is worth it if you own shares at an ASC that you are operating at.
 
diabeticfootdr said:
The point is being a comprehensive physician and surgeon of the foot and ankle.

Some patients need surgery, many don’t.

It’s the most technical of the services we offer, but not the most intellectual.
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This is fair..... But this is not what the profession advertises itself as..... Hey people here's a faster option into the operating room
 
diabeticfootdr said:
You guys will complain about anything.
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Being misled into a $350k investment seems like a fair complaint. The income range listed on that meme site makes repaying that seem like no sweat, except the vast majority of us end up having to accept half that amount. And now student loan forgiveness and PSLF are getting nuked, making taking those loans seem like an even worse idea.

Thanks for the constructive criticism though.
 
air bud said:
This is fair..... But this is not what the profession advertises itself as..... Hey people here's a faster option into the operating room
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100% this. I scanned several of the pages and only found one mention of nail care and didn't see calluses at all. It would be interesting to contrast with the number of times surgery or surgical treatments were mentioned/pictured. What is the most commonly billed ICD diagnosis pods treat again?

Surgery and surgical images are sexy to prepods/premeds but they aren't realistic to what most pods do on a daily basis. When we are talking about a 7-8 year time commitment and 300k in loans it seems wrong to lure students to the field with this type of imagery.
 
diabeticfootdr said:
You guys will complain about anything.
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To be fair, this is the internet…

I don’t really complain here, and I’ve been around longer than most, but I certainly could. I’ve had an employer literally steal from me. Another changed surgical hardware on a case without telling me due to their own financial interests with an MSO they had shares/ownership in. All while getting paid $100k per year. This was within the last 5 years.

All of that aside, I do have a legitimate question that is relevant to the OP. Do any other medical specialties have similar marketing campaigns to the various ones run by the APMA over the last 10-15 years? If not, why?
 
air bud said:
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The deceit here is just breathtaking....
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If I hear competitive salary one more time…

Podiatry competitive salary is 120k plus bonus.

Ortho competitive salary is 4x that at the least.

The average salary for podiatry isn’t 273k when only 5% of jobs pay that and get 100+ applications when one opens (no signing bonus btw)
 
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Weirdy said:
No I get it.

Part of not operating hits my ego.
Do all this crazy training in residency no sweat. Get out in the real world, I find myself being less aggressive with surgery.
I don't have the real world volume right now to feel confident in the OR.
Skill atrophy is real.
My PD used to say if you can't meet your numbers within 2-3 years to submit for boards, you shouldn't be cutting.
I get why he said that now.

Love clinic but forsaking surgery feels like I'm doing my referral base a disservice? Or maybe its just purely an ego thing where I'm not using the training I went through and it feels like a waste?
Or maybe its just the straight up fear of not operating in a long time and shying away from it.

Regardless of inner feelings- the cases I've done have been a huge time sink with little ROI as a new grad.

Edit: Havn't shared this with anyone else cause it makes me look like a wimp but you guys hate the mods on here anyways so why not. We're all internet strangers in the same hole.
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The reality I got hit with as an attending compared to residency is there are a lot of patients who come through wanting surgery who don’t actually have pain.

I think there are a whole lot of docs in our profession cutting on patients for the wrong reason. If I had a dime for every new patient that came in my door who was not satisfied and regretted surgery they had in the past after getting told “they needed it” I might be able to pay off my loans
 
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Hybrocure said:
The reality I got hit with as an attending compared to residency is there are a lot of patients who come through wanting surgery who don’t actually have pain.

I think there are a whole lot of docs in our profession cutting on patients for the wrong reason. If I had a dime for every new patient that came in my door who was not satisfied and regretted surgery they had in the past after getting told “they needed it” I might be able to pay off my loans
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Had that today
Got red flags from them, crazy type but at least was able to point to where they had most discomfort from working, standing, walking yada yada

Had seen 2 previous foot doctors
One said they needed toe surgery
The other said they needed ankle surgery

Pain they were having weren't in ankle or toe.

I've also had 2 other patients come in, begging for surgery- also crazy red flags from both.
 
Bored Snorlax said:
Avg $273K. Susss
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The MGMA data Weirdy posted a while back had the median at $278k, so fair, but that’s skewed heavily towards hospital jobs. Not sure where Ziprecruiter gets their numbers but they’re not exactly heavy hitters in medical recruiting.

There’s a site (Link) that keeps spamming the MD/DO forums trying to get self-reported data. Small sample size, but they have it at $240k. If you take out the two major outliers ($1.3M and $975k), the rest averages to $163k.
 
I'm not sure where they get their impression that there is high demand. I've been in PP for 13 years and have no intention on leaving but I send resumes out occasionally just to see if what you guys say on here has any merit. I finally received my first response ever a couple weeks ago. Offer was 150k and 30% bonus over 3x collections. I'm board certified in foot from ABFAS not RF. I think I'll stay put.
 
There was no clearer representation as to where our profession is at as when an elderly new diabetic patient tried tipping me $10 after I finished clipping her toenails.

That is, until it happened a second time.
 
air bud said:
Ah yes...average salaries depend on the specialty....we are just going to brush over the fact that 80 percent of them are higher and then only give you our numbers.
Lies and deceipt.

View attachment 404024View attachment 404025
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For context, no one wants to do FM or Peds, listed at 300k and 260k. The bar for the best vs worst case scenarios in MD/DO vs Podiatry seems quite different.

It’s been diabetics on the rise, guaranteed surgeons, best kept secret in medicine, get in while it’s hot, more competitive now than ever, parity anytime now for decades. I think we’re due for some new material.
 
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Prehealth1011 said:
For context, no one wants to do FM or Peds, listed at 300k and 260k. The bar for the best vs worst case scenarios in MD/DO vs Podiatry seems quite different.

It’s been diabetics on the rise, guaranteed surgeons, best kept secret in medicine, get in while it’s hot, more competitive now than ever, parity anytime now for decades. I think we’re due for some new material.
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I would honestly market the DPM lifestyle (for PP owner/partners, not so much hospital or associate DPMs): no weekends or call if you don't want, low acuity vs most specialties, lower malpractice chance/fees than most specialties, "sky's the limit," etc. This has been done, but the surgery and parity ("doctor") is always the main thing schools/deans/apma/etc have pitched as long as I've paid attention.

The problem is (and was) just the ROI, the loans, the saturation, the DPM training variability...
Any good lifestyle is negated in the fact that podiatry grads are drowned in debt and good jobs or PP is cutthroat in podiatry (as opposed to how Derm, ENT, Rheum, Urology, most MD specialists can plant a flag nearly anywhere and be on a 3 or 6+ month waitlist withing a year of opening). There is a not insignificant possibility that DPMs will end up at nursing home jobs or perma-associate or supergroup gigs (and not just ones who fail our surgical boards).

It really can't be a good profession unless half the schools were closed (the lower half residencies too) and the remaining podiatry schools were more affordable tuition and/or more scholarships. Podiatry leaders have been FAR too greedy and would never do the smart thing and model Ortho, Derm, Uro, Plastics and other specialties who control their training quality and supply/demand - which in turn effects great income. If they wake up and did that stuff, you'd end up with better students, better training, better income/demand (from hospitals and payers alike), more grads getting good jobs.

But instead, podiatry basically takes the pharmacy/chiropractic strategy (open as many schools as possible... as fast as possible, accept almost anyone, let many marginal residencies keep at it), and we unsurprisingly have many 1:2 and even 1:3 or worse income : debt ROI grads defaulting on loans, grumbling, DPMs cannibalizing other DPMs due to saturation, and even VA jobs get 100+ podiatrist apps.

Adam Smasher said:
This is the bait and switch of podiatry. Surgery is such a minor part of what we do....
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1000%

Podiatry leadership totally missed the boat on 2yr podiatry residency for all and a small fraction being 4yr residency for F&A surgery (dental model).

That would've helped both the debt/income and the meager surgery volume issues. It is suboptimal in many ways to have most DPMs do one or two bunions per month and a small handful (or no) ankles per year. We exceeded the actual need for "foot and ankle surgeon" many times over with the 3yr surgical residency for all plan. It gets worse and worse each year as nearly all incoming DPMs are "surgeon" while most retiree DPMS are little/no surgery.
 
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Less pushing surgery and fighting to be a surgeon. More pushing for better reimbursement from insurances for what MDs and DOs won’t do.

No primary care physician wants their patient to take their shoes off in their office. Period.

That’s half the reason why we exist.

A vast majority of my PCP referrals are a templated non foot exam straight to referral based off of what the patient says.
 
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