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AttackNME said:
MD/DO school requires more front end sacrifice if you can’t get in, it takes more time money and risk of wasted years on the application with further debt, and then if you get in you still have to compete, it’s not guaranteed the specialty you want. That’s front end sacrifice. Podiatry is easier to get in and guaranteed some type of surgical training, sure quality of training is varied but a serious MD/DO competitor would likely be top of the class for podiatry. The back end sacrifice is initial lower starting salary under 200k for most, but as experience builds so does opportunity, and most can end up over 250k.
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The point of arguing that we should not complain because most podiatry students and current attendings were not smart enough to get into MD/DO is so weak.

If that is the case then why does podiatry school cost as much as most MD/DO schools? If we are inferior and dumber then it should be cheaper. But it is not. It costs just as much but the ROI is way worse. The job market is way worse. So your argument makes no sense.

Make podiatry school cheaper, graduate less podiatry residents, create some real world demand. Don't flood the market with surgically trained podiatrists who society does not need. Stop giving private equity podiatry supergroups new graduates to exploit and continue to feed and build the pyramid scheme that is becoming private practice podiatry.

Then we can justify your argument that podiatry was a backdoor way to become a "doctor" and "surgeon" and we should just "accept it".
 
AttackNME said:
MD/DO school requires more front end sacrifice if you can’t get in, it takes more time money and risk of wasted years on the application with further debt, and then if you get in you still have to compete, it’s not guaranteed the specialty you want. That’s front end sacrifice. Podiatry is easier to get in and guaranteed some type of surgical training, sure quality of training is varied but a serious MD/DO competitor would likely be top of the class for podiatry. The back end sacrifice is initial lower starting salary under 200k for most, but as experience builds so does opportunity, and most can end up over 250k.
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I agree with all of this above.
Most podiatry top grads would be bottom tier in med school (if they got in at all, passed usmle at all, etc). My study partner and I used to talk about this in pod school how we'd have been near bottom of the class in DO school, probably barely passed boards, matched to FP or psych or Peds or something... but instead we get basically our choice of pod residencies and were near top of class.

...But the problem remains that even podiatry valedictorians and honors grads can struggle. Our supply and demand is terrible. Top grads/residents aren't immune. The only people who are largely above it are the ones with family money to not have student loans and/or money to buy/start an office of their own. I agree most good grads for pod can get to over $250k if they work hard and keep trying, but the start salaries and lack of jobs is a huge issue.

It doesn't matter what entry student stats are. Most DPMs didn't / wouldn't get into MD/DO... of course. Most DPMs would be top nursing students, though. They'd probably be good HVAC guys. They'd be good for ultrasound techs. They could be IT trainees. But all of those jobs have much better demand than podiatry. They have better ROI. It's simple: they don't have twice as many schools and grads as they need.

As said, with so many podiatry schools and such high cost, we're basically just sending most of the grads to the venture cap / supergroup coal mines these days (with $400k in loans). Apma and the schools wave them in gleefully. Why wouldn't they? It's the way pharmacy schools were a decade or two ago: pure greed. There are simply not nearly enough hospital podiatry jobs or good MSG/ortho jobs. The fellowship nonsense is people grasping at straws and compounding debt to hope to get one of those rare good gigs (remember, for podiatry, even VA jobs = "good"). Few will ever get the chance or money for PP owner/partner either... their credit is badly wrecked by their debt/income ratio. Many will go literally bankrupt or be paying off student loans for 25years (if forgiveness stays) or even longer as the tuitions keep going up and up.

And now we have ACFAS agreeing with this hocus that podiatry can attract students promising tons of surgery (for all 600+ grads ever year????):

acfas disco.jpg
 
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Feli said:
I agree with all of this above.
Most podiatry top grads would be bottom tier in med school (if they got in at all, passed usmle at all, etc). My study partner and I used to talk about this in pod school how we'd have been near bottom of the class in DO school, probably barely passed boards, matched to FP or psych or Peds or something... but instead we get basically our choice of pod residencies and were near top of class.

...But the problem remains that even podiatry valedictorians and honors grads can struggle. Our supply and demand is terrible. Top grads/residents aren't immune. The only people who are largely above it are the ones with family money to not have student loans and/or money to buy/start an office of their own. I agree most good grads for pod can get to over $250k if they work hard and keep trying, but the start salaries and lack of jobs is a huge issue.

It doesn't matter what entry student stats are. Most DPMs didn't / wouldn't get into MD/DO... of course. Most DPMs would be top nursing students, though. They'd probably be good HVAC guys. They'd be good for ultrasound techs. They could be IT trainees. But all of those jobs have much better demand than podiatry. They have better ROI. It's simple: they don't have twice as many schools and grads as they need.

As said, with so many podiatry schools and such high cost, we're basically just sending most of the grads to the venture cap / supergroup coal mines these days (with $400k in loans). Apma and the schools wave them in gleefully. Why wouldn't they? It's the way pharmacy schools were a decade or two ago: pure greed. There are simply not nearly enough hospital podiatry jobs or good MSG/ortho jobs. The fellowship nonsense is people grasping at straws and compounding debt to hope to get one of those rare good gigs (remember, for podiatry, even VA jobs = "good"). Few will ever get the chance or money for PP owner/partner either... their credit is badly wrecked by their debt/income ratio. Many will go literally bankrupt or be paying off student loans for 25years (if forgiveness stays) or even longer as the tuitions keep going up and up.

And now we have ACFAS agreeing with this hocus that podiatry can attract students promising tons of surgery (for all 600+ grads ever year????):

View attachment 404533
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I have to disagree here. 5 of the top 10 graduating friends in my class can be top notch MD candidates/students. They’re all doing very well with their current career
 
Masking during COVID was one of the best things I've learned to do. I wear a mask and eye-wear whenever I do most procedures now--toenails, ulcers, biopsies, etc. Also, I've thoroughly enjoyed not getting sick during cold and flu season.
 
Adam Smasher said:
Masking during COVID was one of the best things I've learned to do. I wear a mask and eye-wear whenever I do most procedures now--toenails, ulcers, biopsies, etc. Also, I've thoroughly enjoyed not getting sick during cold and flu season.
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I use my mask every day because of the fungal toenail missiles, smelly feet, and of course hide my face in shame as a podiatrist.
 
I think the worst is when you have to tell a female assistant/resident/doc that they have toenail piece in their hair.
They're all excited to present a patient or whatever, and that's just womp womp womp 🙁

Oh No Wow GIF


...I've gotten pretty good at blocking flying toenail pieces with my opposite hand thumb over jaws of nipper. I don't think I've been hit by a missile piece yet this year. The things they don't teach ya in pod school, eh?
 
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Retrograde_Nail said:
The point of arguing that we should not complain because most podiatry students and current attendings were not smart enough to get into MD/DO is so weak.
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Don't expect MD/DO level guarantees, they worked hard for it, they earned it. As DPMs we DEFINITELY should complain about making lives better for us and our patients, and that starts with taking care of us and our own financial well being. But it doesn't make economic sense to EXPECT it to be the level of MD/DO.

Homo sapien said:
Limit it to maybe 200 graduates yearly and reduce tuition then we're talking.
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CPME or APMA needs to grow a spine and either develop a non-surgical route for low performers, or figure out a market data-driven model to cap DPM graduates and keep it competitive. Either options can work but we can't have both, this unregulated graduation of DPM candidates will hurt our future. As it stands right now, top DPMs get paid and do surgery, bottom DPMs stay in debt and eat toenails, and that's not right.
 
AttackNME said:
Don't expect MD/DO level guarantees, they worked hard for it, they earned it. As DPMs we DEFINITELY should complain about making lives better for us and our patients, and that starts with taking care of us and our own financial well being. But it doesn't make economic sense to EXPECT it to be the level of MD/DO.
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I'd like to be able to move freely across the country with a base salary of 200k. I don't think that is unreasonable. I agree with your solution to keep things competitive.
 
Dermato Fight Club said:
I'd like to be able to move freely across the country with a base salary of 200k. I don't think that is unreasonable. I agree with your solution to keep things competitive.
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Exactly. The only thing preventing that is oversaturation. Plain and simple. Experienced nurses can 'move freely' around the country with a guaranteed six figure income because there's always a 'nursing shortage'. More like a shortage of people willing to work more than 36 hours a week
 
AttackNME said:
CPME or APMA needs to grow a spine and either develop a non-surgical route for low performers, or figure out a market data-driven model to cap DPM graduates and keep it competitive. Either options can work but we can't have both, this unregulated graduation of DPM candidates will hurt our future. As it stands right now, top DPMs get paid and do surgery, bottom DPMs stay in debt and eat toenails, and that's not right.
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Too many pods woundnt be able to reach their bonus without resident labor. Attending's in my residency would cancel clinic rather then see patients themselves. About 35 patients… a lot of them are like that in education or residency…
 
APMA linked to an article in Fierce Healthcare the other day indicating that about 80% of physicians are employed by hospitals systems, corporate groups etc the other day. I attempted to look for statistics on podiatrist employment right now - most of the data is old, but I was still strongly left with the impression that we are predominantly private practice employed. That's a problem in our deteriorating payment ecosystem.
 
Posting on this mobile app is absolute trash

Can’t even post a thought without a bunch of emojis

——-

Secondly most podiatrists are private practice employed. We graduate more podiatrists from residency than all of orthopedics for all specialties. Every year.

The only place to get employed for the majority are private practice groups.

Pretty soon it will be 3-5 private practice supergroups set up like a pyramid scheme to get the original stake holders significant money while new worker bee graduates are hustling just to make a buck. That’s our future.
 
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Why even provide a number and not just say it varies by practice type/location? Giving averages is difficult when some private groups list "low" salaries but have other incentives and ways to make money. Are bonuses included? Unlikely given the term "salary". I think stating compensation would be more beneficial, otherwise just leave it at varied and provide links for people for averages or god forbid a recent MGMA for hospital based jobs.
 
MoostashPod said:
Darn, no mention of surgery or a faster shorter route to becoming a surgeon.
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Oh no, that's still on there don't worry this is just part of it.... Oh yeah and what's always great about these things is that they use current students who are brainwashed into thinking stuff from the admission process instead of actual people.
 
Faster way to become a surgeon - wow!

There is a reason real surgeons do long residency often with fellowship…. Can’t believe that is the messaging out there, makes our profession look like a joke to the MD/DOs
 
MicroPod said:
Faster way to become a surgeon - wow!

There is a reason real surgeons do long residency often with fellowship…. Can’t believe that is the messaging out there, makes our profession look like a joke to the MD/DOs
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I had an anesthesiologist delay my septic gas tma for 4 hours because they didn’t think it was in my scope. This was at 11pm. Gen surg chief picked up at 2am finally and confirmed. I told him to come in an do the case because if I do it I’m documenting the delay in care. I take free call, gen surg gets paid. Now they get to do all the TMAs because anesthesia group would not apologize or accept responsibility for delay in care. Even though I showed them my scope in the state and hospital lol.
🙂

It’s reality some MDs will treat you like crap. That’s fine, let them earn their salary, I’ll stay home and watch HBO.
 
Sendin_Toes_2market said:
I had an anesthesiologist delay my septic gas tma for 4 hours because they didn’t think it was in my scope. This was at 11pm. Gen surg chief picked up at 2am finally and confirmed. I told him to come in an do the case because if I do it I’m documenting the delay in care. I take free call, gen surg gets paid. Now they get to do all the TMAs because anesthesia group would not apologize or accept responsibility for delay in care. Even though I showed them my scope in the state and hospital lol.
🙂

It’s reality some MDs will treat you like crap. That’s fine, let them earn their salary, I’ll stay home and watch HBO.
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That is egregious and you should file a complaint. Are you new at this hospital? Do they know you at all? I would have called the chief of surgery immediately. If they did not answer, the hospital CEO or general counsel. I can't wrap my head around this. Maybe if you were doing a distal leg guillotine or ankle disarticulation. For them to stop a TMA, sounds like something from 40 years ago.
 
Calogero said:
That is egregious and you should file a complaint. Are you new at this hospital? Do they know you at all? I would have called the chief of surgery immediately. If they did not answer, the hospital CEO or general counsel. I can't wrap my head around this. Maybe if you were doing a distal leg guillotine or ankle disarticulation. For them to stop a TMA, sounds like something from 40 years ago.
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Easier to find a podiatrist than an anesthesiologist. It was a big thing that got swept under the rug. FYI, patient did well and I did the case. Was my last emergent case in that building though. I do take floor consults for limb salvage still. They pay more than amps.

No need to fight. I just take my electives to a surgery center 1 hour away. No private insurance $ for them.

[edit] this is a smaller hospital in my area. Type that has NP in wound care but not DPM
Because we aren’t experienced enough. No winning.
 
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I can't find the original source. Can you clarify what this means? Median Total Compensation is 265k +/- 72% at the highs and lows? Yeah I could believe someone out there is grossing 74k.
 
Adam Smasher said:
I can't find the original source. Can you clarify what this means? Median Total Compensation is 265k +/- 72% at the highs and lows? Yeah I could believe someone out there is grossing 74k.
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Is this maybe the dude on here asking people to contribute info a few months ago? I am sure there is minimal data for Podiatry.
 
Yeah not sure how many people actively contributed for all specialties listed. We all know the variance for pay is huge to even bother putting an average on it. Even hospital pod vs hospital pod varies pretty significantly based on location, services offered, number of call cases etc. Let alone PP vs PP. I will say though that 265k is like minimal starting at every hospital contract I've seen in the Midwest, so, ya know, just keep knocking on those doors I guess?
 
I’m legit stuck wondering where all these 265k jobs are as the average since 70% of jobs in this field are sub 150k plus bonus and still considered “competitive”
 
Hybrocure said:
I’m legit stuck wondering where all these 265k jobs are as the average since 70% of jobs in this field are sub 150k plus bonus and still considered “competitive”
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There is a bias in surveys when most of our jobs are PP... the $100k and $125k PP associates and even most $175k supergroup or Upperline DPM worker bees just aren't going to answer the surveys (or they'll BS a number they hope they can get to in a few years). You see that in the means/median in ACFAS and APMA surveys too. The higher end entrepreneur and hospital FTE pods will answer... and even they might BS their salary up a bit to try to brag.

Regardless, the pod market is what is... we see it continually: new grads shocked at the few offers and low offers. Everyone knows this. Even most pods with 'good' jobs went to flyover towns and are afraid to lose their job or have competition. They might say 'just try harder,' but we have way too many podiatrists. There are technically a decent amount of $300k+ podi jobs out there (or able to be "created"), but they're competitive, some burn you on call, many aren't great places to live (esp if partner likes dining/art/entertain/shopping options and/or needs a metro job). The VA jobs are mostly below that pay "average" and have their own set of issues. PP can be done anywhere, but it's pretty hard (narrow profit margins) in some places.

...Most problematic, the more pay a podiatrist job has, the more other people can usually have potential to mess it up (more admins to please, more staff that can flake or conflict, more other DPMs who'd do the job for less, more MD/DO docs limiting them if metro, more competitors want the desirable area area if PP, etc). That is just how saturation works. It's rough. (so BubbaWub's C&C job in TinyTown USA is safe tho)
 
CPME lurkers take note: NO one has a rigorous answer to the question "how much money to podiatrists earn really?" All we have is the BLS data which is flawed and surveys like these which are VERY flawed and the MGMA data which is in a different ballpark. So we fall back on rumors and hearsay and anecdotes on internet forums which is obviously the worst of all, but we're humans and we trust our friends more than we trust YOU. No one knows how much we're actually earning!

YOU want students to come to YOUR schools and pay YOU tuition dollars, so YOU have to make it worth their while. The burden is on YOU. YOU are situated in your ivory towers and equipped to actually DO a real study and ANSWER THE QUESTION, how much do podiatrists earn really?
 
Adam Smasher said:
CPME lurkers take note: NO one has a rigorous answer to the question "how much money to podiatrists earn really?" All we have is the BLS data which is flawed and surveys like these which are VERY flawed and the MGMA data which is in a different ballpark. So we fall back on rumors and hearsay and anecdotes on internet forums which is obviously the worst of all, but we're humans and we trust our friends more than we trust YOU. No one knows how much we're actually earning!

YOU want students to come to YOUR schools and pay YOU tuition dollars, so YOU have to make it worth their while. The burden is on YOU. YOU are situated in your ivory towers and equipped to actually DO a real study and ANSWER THE QUESTION, how much do podiatrists earn really?
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I heard there is opportunity with ancillary income as well as the ability to start your surgical career earlier with more focus.
 
Adam Smasher said:
CPME lurkers take note: NO one has a rigorous answer to the question "how much money to podiatrists earn really?" All we have is the BLS data which is flawed and surveys like these which are VERY flawed and the MGMA data which is in a different ballpark. So we fall back on rumors and hearsay and anecdotes on internet forums which is obviously the worst of all, but we're humans and we trust our friends more than we trust YOU. No one knows how much we're actually earning!

YOU want students to come to YOUR schools and pay YOU tuition dollars, so YOU have to make it worth their while. The burden is on YOU. YOU are situated in your ivory towers and equipped to actually DO a real study and ANSWER THE QUESTION, how much do podiatrists earn really?
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I disagree. I believe it is quite evident about what you can expect to make. We live in the world of information. Forget surveys, MGMA etc. Just search for jobs. It really isn't that hard to see that there are very few jobs available.

What should be the gold standard of job postings for podiatry? The ACFAS site/ Podiatrycareers.org? There are currently 12 jobs listed and 22 orthopedic foot and ankle surgeon jobs. So we produce 10 times as many ortho foot and ankle surgeons per year and they have almost double the job availability than us on our own website.

Currently the only jobs on the site that list any pay available show 125k-175k in Tennessee, 200k-210k in San Fran and a wide range 165k-300k in Alburquerque.

Sorry but if you're planning on pursuing the next 7 years of your life to hopefully get one of these few jobs, I would highly recommend against it.

Meanwhile, the leaders of the profession are wondering why we have no applicants? Is this a serious question? They are attempting to rebrand the profession and start a grass roots campaign to go out to colleges to hopefully gain more qualified applicants. This makes no sense to me. The best way to increase applicants is to have a steady job market. No one wants to dedicate 7 years plus maybe another 30 in a profession where jobs are scarce. I've discussed this in the past, but if I need to move a couple states away due to my wife being transferred, I'm basically starting all over again.

I would love if we could go to anywhere, USA and have a job making 200k. Maybe it isn't the best job because you don't like your boss/colleagues etc. but you have the ability to go anywhere and make 200k. That does not seem to exist in podiatry. Instead, you can go and open on your own and eventually after years get back to making 250k+ or take the job you know you will hate for 150k.

No applicant worth anything looks at this job market and thinks this is a good life decision.
 
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Dermato Fight Club said:
I disagree. I believe it is quite evident about what you can expect to make. We live in the world of information. Forget surveys, MGMA etc. Just search for jobs. It really isn't that hard to see that there are very few jobs available.

What should be the gold standard of job postings for podiatry? The ACFAS site/ Podiatrycareers.org? There are currently 12 jobs listed and 22 orthopedic foot and ankle surgeon jobs. So we produce 10 times as many ortho foot and ankle surgeons per year and they have almost double the job availability than us on our own website.

Currently the only jobs on the site that list any pay available show 125k-175k in Tennessee, 200k-210k in San Fran and a wide range 165k-300k in Alburquerque.

Sorry but if you're planning on pursuing the next 7 years of your life to hopefully get one of these few jobs, I would highly recommend against it.

Meanwhile, the leaders of the profession are wondering why we have no applicants? Is this a serious question? They are attempting to rebrand the profession and start a grass roots campaign to go out to colleges to hopefully gain more qualified applicants. This makes no sense to me. The best way to increase applicants is to have a steady job market. No one wants to dedicate 7 years plus maybe another 30 in a profession where jobs are scarce. I've discussed this in the past, but if I need to move a couple states away due to my wife being transferred, I'm basically starting all over again.

I would love if we could go to anywhere, USA and have a job making 200k. Maybe it isn't the best job because you don't like your boss/colleagues etc. but you have the ability to go anywhere and make 200k. That does not seem to exist in podiatry. Instead, you can go and open on your own and eventually after years get back to making 250k+ or take the job you know you will hate for 150k.

No applicant worth anything looks at this job market and thinks this is a good life decision.
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Our OWN job board lists more jobs WE are not eligible to apply for. I feel like I am taking crazy pills.
 
Dermato Fight Club said:
Meanwhile, the leaders of the profession are wondering why we have no applicants? Is this a serious question? They are attempting to rebrand the profession and start a grass roots campaign to go out to colleges to hopefully gain more qualified applicants. This makes no sense to me. The best way to increase applicants is to have a steady job market. No one wants to dedicate 7 years plus maybe another 30 in a profession where jobs are scarce. I've discussed this in the past, but if I need to move a couple states away due to my wife being transferred, I'm basically starting all over again.
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Its even funnier because pod students have been doing this since 7+ years ago.
I did it with my classmates to advertise podiatry and our school, on our own time, money and cars.
Gave presentations at locations 2+hrs away, did workshops with college and high school students, volunteered at free health clinics.

They tout it like its some crazy transformative unheard-of idea or movement when students have been doing it for free for the last 10+ years out of their own enthusiasm.

Only difference is money and prestige.
 
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Dermato Fight Club said:
...What should be the gold standard of job postings for podiatry? The ACFAS site/ Podiatrycareers.org? ...
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I kinda like the APMA job and classified boards for entertainment...

Had a great convo with a retiring DPM a few years back who wanted to sell old office stuff, didn't want to ship or freight anything. He suggested I to fly to Philly for a couple used power chairs ("beauties"), put it in a UHaul then drive back to NMex. He was willing to throw in some free used hand instruments. You learn from everyone.
 
Feli said:
I kinda like the APMA job and classified boards for entertainment...

Had a great convo with a retiring DPM a few years back who wanted to sell old office stuff, didn't want to ship or freight anything. He suggested I to fly to Philly for a couple used power chairs ("beauties"), put it in a UHaul then drive back to NMex. He was willing to throw in some free used hand instruments. You learn from everyone.
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This sounds like some worthless TFP
 
But seriously, this is not disingenuous, it's not lying it's not manipulation, this is a legit question and this should be the hill that we want to die on or whatever you want to say. This is the one question to ask every leader in our profession. On our main job board why are there more jobs listed for positions we are uneligible for, then jobs we are eligible for along with literally 2x compensation. Just answer that. Why can't they do that?

Are CRNA job boards listing jobs for anesthesiologists?

Are optometry boards listing jobs for ophthalmologists?
 
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