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AttackNME said:
MD/DO school requires more front end sacrifice if you can’t get in, it takes more time money and risk of wasted years on the application with further debt, and then if you get in you still have to compete, it’s not guaranteed the specialty you want. That’s front end sacrifice. Podiatry is easier to get in and guaranteed some type of surgical training, sure quality of training is varied but a serious MD/DO competitor would likely be top of the class for podiatry. The back end sacrifice is initial lower starting salary under 200k for most, but as experience builds so does opportunity, and most can end up over 250k.
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The point of arguing that we should not complain because most podiatry students and current attendings were not smart enough to get into MD/DO is so weak.

If that is the case then why does podiatry school cost as much as most MD/DO schools? If we are inferior and dumber then it should be cheaper. But it is not. It costs just as much but the ROI is way worse. The job market is way worse. So your argument makes no sense.

Make podiatry school cheaper, graduate less podiatry residents, create some real world demand. Don't flood the market with surgically trained podiatrists who society does not need. Stop giving private equity podiatry supergroups new graduates to exploit and continue to feed and build the pyramid scheme that is becoming private practice podiatry.

Then we can justify your argument that podiatry was a backdoor way to become a "doctor" and "surgeon" and we should just "accept it".
 
AttackNME said:
MD/DO school requires more front end sacrifice if you can’t get in, it takes more time money and risk of wasted years on the application with further debt, and then if you get in you still have to compete, it’s not guaranteed the specialty you want. That’s front end sacrifice. Podiatry is easier to get in and guaranteed some type of surgical training, sure quality of training is varied but a serious MD/DO competitor would likely be top of the class for podiatry. The back end sacrifice is initial lower starting salary under 200k for most, but as experience builds so does opportunity, and most can end up over 250k.
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I agree with all of this above.
Most podiatry top grads would be bottom tier in med school (if they got in at all, passed usmle at all, etc). My study partner and I used to talk about this in pod school how we'd have been near bottom of the class in DO school, probably barely passed boards, matched to FP or psych or Peds or something... but instead we get basically our choice of pod residencies and were near top of class.

...But the problem remains that even podiatry valedictorians and honors grads can struggle. Our supply and demand is terrible. Top grads/residents aren't immune. The only people who are largely above it are the ones with family money to not have student loans and/or money to buy/start an office of their own. I agree most good grads for pod can get to over $250k if they work hard and keep trying, but the start salaries and lack of jobs is a huge issue.

It doesn't matter what entry student stats are. Most DPMs didn't / wouldn't get into MD/DO... of course. Most DPMs would be top nursing students, though. They'd probably be good HVAC guys. They'd be good for ultrasound techs. They could be IT trainees. But all of those jobs have much better demand than podiatry. They have better ROI. It's simple: they don't have twice as many schools and grads as they need.

As said, with so many podiatry schools and such high cost, we're basically just sending most of the grads to the venture cap / supergroup coal mines these days (with $400k in loans). Apma and the schools wave them in gleefully. Why wouldn't they? It's the way pharmacy schools were a decade or two ago: pure greed. There are simply not nearly enough hospital podiatry jobs or good MSG/ortho jobs. The fellowship nonsense is people grasping at straws and compounding debt to hope to get one of those rare good gigs (remember, for podiatry, even VA jobs = "good"). Few will ever get the chance or money for PP owner/partner either... their credit is badly wrecked by their debt/income ratio. Many will go literally bankrupt or be paying off student loans for 25years (if forgiveness stays) or even longer as the tuitions keep going up and up.

And now we have ACFAS agreeing with this hocus that podiatry can attract students promising tons of surgery (for all 600+ grads ever year????):

acfas disco.jpg
 
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Feli said:
I agree with all of this above.
Most podiatry top grads would be bottom tier in med school (if they got in at all, passed usmle at all, etc). My study partner and I used to talk about this in pod school how we'd have been near bottom of the class in DO school, probably barely passed boards, matched to FP or psych or Peds or something... but instead we get basically our choice of pod residencies and were near top of class.

...But the problem remains that even podiatry valedictorians and honors grads can struggle. Our supply and demand is terrible. Top grads/residents aren't immune. The only people who are largely above it are the ones with family money to not have student loans and/or money to buy/start an office of their own. I agree most good grads for pod can get to over $250k if they work hard and keep trying, but the start salaries and lack of jobs is a huge issue.

It doesn't matter what entry student stats are. Most DPMs didn't / wouldn't get into MD/DO... of course. Most DPMs would be top nursing students, though. They'd probably be good HVAC guys. They'd be good for ultrasound techs. They could be IT trainees. But all of those jobs have much better demand than podiatry. They have better ROI. It's simple: they don't have twice as many schools and grads as they need.

As said, with so many podiatry schools and such high cost, we're basically just sending most of the grads to the venture cap / supergroup coal mines these days (with $400k in loans). Apma and the schools wave them in gleefully. Why wouldn't they? It's the way pharmacy schools were a decade or two ago: pure greed. There are simply not nearly enough hospital podiatry jobs or good MSG/ortho jobs. The fellowship nonsense is people grasping at straws and compounding debt to hope to get one of those rare good gigs (remember, for podiatry, even VA jobs = "good"). Few will ever get the chance or money for PP owner/partner either... their credit is badly wrecked by their debt/income ratio. Many will go literally bankrupt or be paying off student loans for 25years (if forgiveness stays) or even longer as the tuitions keep going up and up.

And now we have ACFAS agreeing with this hocus that podiatry can attract students promising tons of surgery (for all 600+ grads ever year????):

View attachment 404533
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I have to disagree here. 5 of the top 10 graduating friends in my class can be top notch MD candidates/students. They’re all doing very well with their current career
 
Adam Smasher said:
Masking during COVID was one of the best things I've learned to do. I wear a mask and eye-wear whenever I do most procedures now--toenails, ulcers, biopsies, etc. Also, I've thoroughly enjoyed not getting sick during cold and flu season.
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Plus you look more like a surgeon that way - that's what it's all about babey
 
Adam Smasher said:
Masking during COVID was one of the best things I've learned to do. I wear a mask and eye-wear whenever I do most procedures now--toenails, ulcers, biopsies, etc. Also, I've thoroughly enjoyed not getting sick during cold and flu season.
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I use my mask every day because of the fungal toenail missiles, smelly feet, and of course hide my face in shame as a podiatrist.
 
I think the worst is when you have to tell a female assistant/resident/doc that they have toenail piece in their hair.
They're all excited to present a patient or whatever, and that's just womp womp womp 🙁

Oh No Wow GIF


...I've gotten pretty good at blocking flying toenail pieces with my opposite hand thumb over jaws of nipper. I don't think I've been hit by a missile piece yet this year. The things they don't teach ya in pod school, eh?
 
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Retrograde_Nail said:
The point of arguing that we should not complain because most podiatry students and current attendings were not smart enough to get into MD/DO is so weak.
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Don't expect MD/DO level guarantees, they worked hard for it, they earned it. As DPMs we DEFINITELY should complain about making lives better for us and our patients, and that starts with taking care of us and our own financial well being. But it doesn't make economic sense to EXPECT it to be the level of MD/DO.

Homo sapien said:
Limit it to maybe 200 graduates yearly and reduce tuition then we're talking.
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CPME or APMA needs to grow a spine and either develop a non-surgical route for low performers, or figure out a market data-driven model to cap DPM graduates and keep it competitive. Either options can work but we can't have both, this unregulated graduation of DPM candidates will hurt our future. As it stands right now, top DPMs get paid and do surgery, bottom DPMs stay in debt and eat toenails, and that's not right.
 
AttackNME said:
Don't expect MD/DO level guarantees, they worked hard for it, they earned it. As DPMs we DEFINITELY should complain about making lives better for us and our patients, and that starts with taking care of us and our own financial well being. But it doesn't make economic sense to EXPECT it to be the level of MD/DO.
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I'd like to be able to move freely across the country with a base salary of 200k. I don't think that is unreasonable. I agree with your solution to keep things competitive.
 
Dermato Fight Club said:
I'd like to be able to move freely across the country with a base salary of 200k. I don't think that is unreasonable. I agree with your solution to keep things competitive.
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Exactly. The only thing preventing that is oversaturation. Plain and simple. Experienced nurses can 'move freely' around the country with a guaranteed six figure income because there's always a 'nursing shortage'. More like a shortage of people willing to work more than 36 hours a week
 
AttackNME said:
CPME or APMA needs to grow a spine and either develop a non-surgical route for low performers, or figure out a market data-driven model to cap DPM graduates and keep it competitive. Either options can work but we can't have both, this unregulated graduation of DPM candidates will hurt our future. As it stands right now, top DPMs get paid and do surgery, bottom DPMs stay in debt and eat toenails, and that's not right.
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Too many pods woundnt be able to reach their bonus without resident labor. Attending's in my residency would cancel clinic rather then see patients themselves. About 35 patients… a lot of them are like that in education or residency…
 
APMA linked to an article in Fierce Healthcare the other day indicating that about 80% of physicians are employed by hospitals systems, corporate groups etc the other day. I attempted to look for statistics on podiatrist employment right now - most of the data is old, but I was still strongly left with the impression that we are predominantly private practice employed. That's a problem in our deteriorating payment ecosystem.
 
Posting on this mobile app is absolute trash

Can’t even post a thought without a bunch of emojis

——-

Secondly most podiatrists are private practice employed. We graduate more podiatrists from residency than all of orthopedics for all specialties. Every year.

The only place to get employed for the majority are private practice groups.

Pretty soon it will be 3-5 private practice supergroups set up like a pyramid scheme to get the original stake holders significant money while new worker bee graduates are hustling just to make a buck. That’s our future.
 
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Why even provide a number and not just say it varies by practice type/location? Giving averages is difficult when some private groups list "low" salaries but have other incentives and ways to make money. Are bonuses included? Unlikely given the term "salary". I think stating compensation would be more beneficial, otherwise just leave it at varied and provide links for people for averages or god forbid a recent MGMA for hospital based jobs.
 
MoostashPod said:
Darn, no mention of surgery or a faster shorter route to becoming a surgeon.
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Oh no, that's still on there don't worry this is just part of it.... Oh yeah and what's always great about these things is that they use current students who are brainwashed into thinking stuff from the admission process instead of actual people.
 
Faster way to become a surgeon - wow!

There is a reason real surgeons do long residency often with fellowship…. Can’t believe that is the messaging out there, makes our profession look like a joke to the MD/DOs
 
MicroPod said:
Faster way to become a surgeon - wow!

There is a reason real surgeons do long residency often with fellowship…. Can’t believe that is the messaging out there, makes our profession look like a joke to the MD/DOs
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I had an anesthesiologist delay my septic gas tma for 4 hours because they didn’t think it was in my scope. This was at 11pm. Gen surg chief picked up at 2am finally and confirmed. I told him to come in an do the case because if I do it I’m documenting the delay in care. I take free call, gen surg gets paid. Now they get to do all the TMAs because anesthesia group would not apologize or accept responsibility for delay in care. Even though I showed them my scope in the state and hospital lol.
🙂

It’s reality some MDs will treat you like crap. That’s fine, let them earn their salary, I’ll stay home and watch HBO.
 
Sendin_Toes_2market said:
I had an anesthesiologist delay my septic gas tma for 4 hours because they didn’t think it was in my scope. This was at 11pm. Gen surg chief picked up at 2am finally and confirmed. I told him to come in an do the case because if I do it I’m documenting the delay in care. I take free call, gen surg gets paid. Now they get to do all the TMAs because anesthesia group would not apologize or accept responsibility for delay in care. Even though I showed them my scope in the state and hospital lol.
🙂

It’s reality some MDs will treat you like crap. That’s fine, let them earn their salary, I’ll stay home and watch HBO.
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That is egregious and you should file a complaint. Are you new at this hospital? Do they know you at all? I would have called the chief of surgery immediately. If they did not answer, the hospital CEO or general counsel. I can't wrap my head around this. Maybe if you were doing a distal leg guillotine or ankle disarticulation. For them to stop a TMA, sounds like something from 40 years ago.
 
Calogero said:
That is egregious and you should file a complaint. Are you new at this hospital? Do they know you at all? I would have called the chief of surgery immediately. If they did not answer, the hospital CEO or general counsel. I can't wrap my head around this. Maybe if you were doing a distal leg guillotine or ankle disarticulation. For them to stop a TMA, sounds like something from 40 years ago.
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Easier to find a podiatrist than an anesthesiologist. It was a big thing that got swept under the rug. FYI, patient did well and I did the case. Was my last emergent case in that building though. I do take floor consults for limb salvage still. They pay more than amps.

No need to fight. I just take my electives to a surgery center 1 hour away. No private insurance $ for them.

[edit] this is a smaller hospital in my area. Type that has NP in wound care but not DPM
Because we aren’t experienced enough. No winning.
 
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