Discrimination Against URM Physicians

[Dbate]

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From the forums, it is pretty obvious that a lot (most?) of individuals on here have very negative perceptions of minority pre-medical students.

This caused me to wonder if I would face this same discrimination in medical school, residency, etc. Or if patients would choose not to come to me because of my race.

I also wondered if those same people with bias carry their biases into their careers, so I researched studies looking into the matter and found this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2569716/pdf/jnma00196-0043.pdf


Given the massive emphasis the medical community places on "diversity", I found this report saddening, to be perfectly honest.

 

[La Presse]

Why, oh why did you have to start this thread? 🙁

 

[goofball]

Patients are sick. People are douchebags when they're sick. Some of these douchebags will look for any reason to discriminate against people, and race/gender/age are how they do it.

It really sucks, and as a fellow person of color I'm not looking forward to it either. Worth considering Path, Rads, and Anes because they have minimal contact with conscious patients.

 

[Dbate]

Why, oh why did you have to start this thread? 🙁

Because people should know that the consequences of discrimination. People are constantly complaining about AA on here as if it (and their comments) existed in a vacuum.

 

[tartesos]

Patients are sick. People are douchebags when they're sick. Some of these douchebags will look for any reason to discriminate against people, and race/gender/age are how they do it.

It really sucks, and as a fellow person of color I'm not looking forward to it either. Worth considering Path, Rads, and Anes because they have minimal contact with conscious patients.

Discrimination will always be there, but that should not stop you from pursuing a clinical Career.
*****holes come in all shapes and colors, there's nothing you can do about that.
One thing I assure you, no matter how racist or difficult a patient is I'd they are ill and you do the best you can to help them, offer compassion and a smile, that resistance will break and you will be appreciated.

That is coming from a Hispanic img, with an accent and an appearance that can't be fitted at first glance as black nor white, doing a fellowship in the heart of the south of us.
The second question I always get is where are you from originally?
Right after are you a dr if I had not had a chance to introduce myself yet.

Don't let racism or discrimination limit you. It would be a lame excuse to limit yourself and trust me it will have no significance in your future. Work hard, mean well, don't hurt anybody intentionally, be a team player, study and nothing else matters.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

If you are going to be an AA physician, be prepared! You will have to develop a thick skin. I work at a rehab and I have seen many times that patients dump arguably the most caring and the most competent PCP at the place because he is an AA so they can get the other guy who dont seem to give a f.... about them and their well-being. They will alway find a lame excuse to dump you. Trust me!

 

[galaxyx]

Do you think that having prominent intelligent African Americans on tv like Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Dr. Benjamin Carson on tv helps the perception of minority physicians at all?

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[NontradCA]

It's called cause and effect.

If people call doctors "AA doctors" is it because they are racist?

Do URMs not benefit from AA?


People thinking we are incompetent and only successful due to the color of our skin is the price we pay for letting skin color matter in the selection process.

And here. We. Go.

 

[MusicJunkie]

It's called cause and effect.

If people call doctors "AA doctors" is it because they are racist?

Do URMs not benefit from AA?


People thinking we are incompetent and only successful due to the color of our skin is the price we pay for letting skin color matter in the selection process.

The original topic of conversation here is whether or not the OP would face discrimination in his/her workplace, not to get into a debate or discussion about AA.

There are countless other threads on the forum about the AA debate. If you want to discuss it, go to one of those threads. Let's stay on topic here, please.

 

[Calculon]

It's called cause and effect.

If people call doctors "AA doctors" is it because they are racist?

Do URMs not benefit from AA?


People thinking we are incompetent and only successful due to the color of our skin is the price we pay for letting skin color matter in the selection process.

+1

The original topic of conversation here is whether or not the OP would face discrimination in his/her workplace, not to get into a debate or discussion about AA.

There are countless other threads on the forum about the AA debate. If you want to discuss it, go to one of those threads. Let's stay on topic here, please.

Disagree. It is worth examining some of the causes of said discrimination, so that we are better able to prevent the discrimination in the future.

 

[CrimsonKing]

 

[MusicJunkie]

Disagree. It is worth examining some of the causes of said discrimination, so that we are better able to prevent the discrimination in the future.

I respect your viewpoint and I definitely understand where you're coming from. I was going to write out a long response and explain my stance, but in all honesty - I'm tired from a long shift at work, it's Easter, and I just want to eat endless amounts of food and watch "How I Met Your Mother." lol I'll be back later tonight though.

Have a good one, guys!

 

[Calculon]

I respect your viewpoint and I definitely understand where you're coming from. I was going to write out a long response and explain my stance, but in all honesty - I'm tired from a long shift at work, it's Easter, and I just want to eat endless amounts of food and watch "How I Met Your Mother." lol I'll be back later tonight though.

Have a good one, guys!

Ha ha, I understand. Have a good time!

 

[yos]

Do you think that having prominent intelligent African Americans on tv like Neil DeGrasse Tyson and Dr. Benjamin Carson on tv helps the perception of minority physicians at all?

Who knows but as far as serving as role models to kids?
Not really, because let's face it. The majority of minority school kids and teenagers are not reading the political or science sections of the Washington post. They have never heard of any of these doctors. The only time they care or notice a doctor is when they themselves go see one.

It's funny because the people you mention will be more than likely to criticize how affirmative action is run today. I found something about Ben Carson's view of affirmative action today.

" In his view, affirmative action was once appropriate but has now become divisive. He proposes "compassionate action," which would give a helping hand to people based on financial need and real-life adversity."

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/340769/dr-carson-s-prescription-john-fund

Many in this country on both sides of the political spectrum support switching over a system that takes into account adversity/background over skin color.
The tide is moving in this direction. The days of my suburban raised Hispanic friend who comes from a professional family that does not speak Spanish in their home and does not identify with the Hispanic culture very much getting a leg up due to AA are waning.

 

[calvnandhobbs68]

It's called cause and effect.

If people call doctors "AA doctors" is it because they are racist?

Do URMs not benefit from AA?


People thinking we are incompetent and only successful due to the color of our skin is the price we pay for letting skin color matter in the selection process.

When did anybody get called an affirmative action doctor? Didn't see it once in that whole article and haven't seen it once in this thread. Also, realize that AA stands for African American as well.

 

[GLaDOS]

So unfortunate. I'm sorry you feel this way, OP. In regards to what you read on SDN, I do feel like this place tends to magnify the more negative aspects of society.

To give you a real world example, years ago, I lived in 1 of the larger cities in central IL where a vast majority of the population was white. 2 of the most renowned & sought-after surgeons there were AA. When I had to have surgery myself, I found out why. The level of care & compassion I received from them & their team was outstanding.

Not going to go into too much detail, but at the time, I was alone & afraid & despite all that, never have I had so much confidence in a physician. The surgery I needed was a bit risky & complex, but their level of skill was amazing & I came through with no complications & the most neat & tidy little scars. While that may seem silly, it made a difference to a me as a self-conscious young woman at the time! I cared & worried about it & I felt like because of that, so did they. They never made any concern of mine seem unimportant. I feel very fortunate to have had them on my side & any patient would be doing a great disservice to themselves to bypass these physicians based on race.

My point is...sure, some DBag patients may discriminate against you, but who cares? It'll be their loss. Just take the energy you'd spend on that BS & put it to better use.

 

[prado]

With "AA" being used to refer to both african americans and affirmative action, I've gotten kind of lost in this thread

 

[rodmichael82]

With "AA" being used to refer to both african americans and affirmative action, I've gotten kind of lost in this thread

AA use AA in schools.

 

[Calculon]

There are a lot of studies that have been done on the effects of AA on non-target group members. They are very enlightening.

 

[AdrianVeidt]

lol black people aren't going to all of a sudden come across an upheaval of racism and discrimination when they go to med school. We've faced it going through elementary school, middle school, high school and undergraduate.

If anything I expect the racism I face to slightly decrease in med school since the more educated people are, the more accepting they are (generally). If you think SDN is bad where just about everyone has at least a B.A. degree or coming close to getting one, spend time in the real world.

 

[rodmichael82]

No surprise that Calculon is in another thread about URM

 

[Calculon]

No surprise that Calculon is in another thread about URM

More personal attacks - why am I not surprised? If you have anything substantial to say, let me know.

 

[MelonMan]

More personal attacks - why am I not surprised? If you have anything substantial to say, let me know.

How was that a personal attack? He's obviously joking a bit, you really ought to calm down... or learn what a personal attack really is. And there is some truth in what the poster is saying, you've joined SDN recently and I'm going to guess that most, if not all, of your posts have been in either this thread or your SCOTUS thread. If you really want to discuss the legality of something, perhaps you can find a better place to do so, for example legal forums. I've never seen someone on SDN care so much and get angry about a topic that has a little to no impact on him.

 

[Calculon]

How was that a personal attack? He's obviously joking a bit, you really ought to calm down... or learn what a personal attack really is. And there is some truth in what the poster is saying, you've joined SDN recently and I'm going to guess that most, if not all, of your posts have been in either this thread or your SCOTUS thread. If you really want to discuss the legality of something, perhaps you can find a better place to do so, for example legal forums. I've never seen someone on SDN care so much and get angry about a topic that has a little to no impact on him.

I'm not angry dude. On the other thread, he/she had made several personal attacks and failed to address the argument.

Once again, attacking other posters isn't going to get you anywhere. I don't really care what you guys say, but no one's going to take you seriously if you all do is attack others.

 

[MelonMan]

I'm not angry dude. On the other thread, he/she had made several personal attacks and failed to address the argument.

Once again, attacking other posters isn't going to get you anywhere. I don't really care what you guys say, but no one's going to take you seriously if you all do is attack others.

Noone is going to take you seriously whenever every single one of your posts contain stuff like "that's an ad hominem" and "here's another personal attack". Also I find it quite humorous you're telling others to not post unless its an actual contribution, when literally ALL your posts have been about one topic that has been rehashed over and over.

Hey guys, Calculon has one thing to say to SDN: He thinks MCRI is constitutional and AA isn't. Now that everyone knows your point, perhaps you can move on to topics that might actually help other posters on SDN.

 

[Calculon]

Noone is going to take you seriously whenever every single one of your posts contain stuff like "that's an ad hominem" and "here's another personal attack". Also I find it quite humorous you're telling others to not post unless its an actual contribution, when literally ALL your posts have been about one topic that has been rehashed over and over.

Hey guys, Calculon has one thing to say to SDN: He thinks MCRI is constitutional and AA isn't. Now that everyone knows your point, perhaps you can move on to topics that might actually help other posters on SDN.

If you had cared to actually discuss the issues at hand, the thread would have been something of substance instead of a barrage of unfounded racism allegations.

In any case, when SCOTUS does rule on this issue, I hope you'll understand their logic. And maybe actually use facts instead of "You're a racist!" accusations. This advice will serve you well; I promise.

 

[MelonMan]

If you had cared to actually discuss the issues at hand, the thread would have been something of substance instead of a barrage of unfounded racism allegations.

In any case, when SCOTUS does rule on this issue, I hope you'll understand their logic. And maybe actually use facts instead of "You're a racist!" accusations. This advice will serve you well; I promise.

Where have I ever called you racist? I have not even come close to saying that sort of accusation. I do live in the real world however, and I do think you are too much of an idealist. I msure I will be able to understand the logic of any decision SCOTUS makes, as I do have the power to read and comprehend.

I disagree that discussing the issue will help, because only thing you can do is wait for SCOTUS to rule on it. They are actual legal brilliant minds, unlike you or anyone on SDN, so I don't really care to see you reiterate over and over that you think its unconstitutional. If your only point to coming on SDN is to tell people on the premedical forum that AA is unconstitutional, then I find your diatribe boring, uninformative, and useless.

 

[Calculon]

Where have I ever called you racist? I have not even come close to saying that sort of accusation. I do live in the real world however, and I do think you are too much of an idealist. I msure I will be able to understand the logic of any decision SCOTUS makes, as I do have the power to read and comprehend.

I disagree that discussing the issue will help, because only thing you can do is wait for SCOTUS to rule on it. They are actual legal brilliant minds, unlike you or anyone on SDN, so I don't really care to see you reiterate over and over that you think its unconstitutional. If your only point to coming on SDN is to tell people on the premedical forum that AA is unconstitutional, then I find your diatribe boring, uninformative, and useless.

Not you specifically, but a number of other posters made that accusation.

I find it funny that you label my posts as diatribes, yet you completely ignore the various comments in the other thread calling me a URM-hater, a coward, a bigot, and a racist.

Does talking about interview and admissions chances help anyone's causes? No. But nearly everyone on SDN still does it. Because it's something we care about. And opposing race-based affirmative action is something I care about. Unfortunately, no one wanted to enter into a serious discussion. So I'll just leave with you that.

Have a nice Easter.

 

[nabilesmail]

Hmm, I don't imagine much of the patient population to know anything about AA and medical school. I would imagine they think of minority doctors as hard-working people that escaped their zones of poverty that also have the same stats as other physicians. Then again, people have brought up examples in this thread where patients wanted non-minority patients because of AA.

 

[MelonMan]

Not you specifically, but a number of other posters made that accusation.

I find it funny that you label my posts as diatribes, yet you completely ignore the various comments in the other thread calling me a URM-hater, a coward, and a racist.

Does talking about interview and admissions chances help anyone's causes? No. But nearly everyone on SDN still does it. Because it's something we care about. And opposing race-based affirmative action is something I care about. Unfortunately, no one wanted to enter into a serious discussion. So I'll just leave with you that.

Have a nice Easter.

I clicked on your profile. Made in march 2013, literally all of your posts are on this subject, so you can see why people do not want to have a serious discussion with you. Your motives are highly suspect, and I have never seen someone who has been accepted to medical school have so much fervor in taking down AA. It's a bit sad and pathetic, really. (That is a personal attack, that last sentence, by the way)

 

[Calculon]

I clicked on your profile. Made in march 2013, literally all of your posts are on this subject, so you can see why people do not want to have a serious discussion with you. Your motives are highly suspect, and I have never seen someone who has been accepted to medical school have so much fervor in taking down AA. It's a bit sad and pathetic, really. (That is a personal attack, that last sentence, by the way)

Since you don't seem to have any decency, why don't I leave you with one my own. Go **** yourself, douchebag. You can't come up with any legitimate points, so you make personal attacks like a whiny little b****.

 

[MelonMan]

Since you don't seem to have any decency, why don't I leave you with one my own. Go **** yourself.

You are one maaaaaad little man. And I don't mind, doing that relieves stress and helps you sleep better.

 

[Arbor Vitae]

Since you don't seem to have any decency, why don't I leave you with one my own. Go **** yourself.

What race are you? Are you even American?

 

[MelonMan]

What race are you? Are you even American?

I am not an URM and of course I'm american... what kind of question is that? smh

 

[Arbor Vitae]

I am not an URM and of course I'm american... what kind of question is that? smh

woops, meant to quote the person above you, I edited it

 

[Didierdrogba]

Because people should know that the consequences of discrimination. People are constantly complaining about AA on here as if it (and their comments) existed in a vacuum.

Well it wasn't so long ago when OP was complaining and discriminating against DO's here
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=988398

My guess is that OP has small penis syndrome

 

[ryansgs]

I don't discriminate against minority physicians. Now that I think about it all the doctors I went to in the past year were all of either Indian, Jewish or East-Asian descent.

Seems like some people above are implying only whites can be racist. This is false. Anyone can be racist regardless of what part of the world they're from originally. Living in a city where I'm a minority (30% white) the racism I encounter is staggering.

And has anyone else noticed how insanely racist and discriminatory AA is? Giving special treatment to people solely because of their skin color. Come on, really. The last time a great nation played favorites with races the holocaust happened.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

I don't discriminate against minority physicians. Now that I think about it all the doctors I went to in the past year were all of either Indian, Jewish or East-Asian descent.

Seems like some people above are implying only whites can be racist. This is false. Anyone can be racist regardless of what part of the world they're from originally. Living in a city where I'm a minority (30% white) the racism I encounter is staggering.

Care to elaborate?

And has anyone else noticed how insanely racist and discriminatory AA is? Giving special treatment to people solely because of their skin color. Come on, really. The last time a great nation played favorites with races the holocaust happened.

Sooo we're comparing a programme which allows small amounts of minorities to enter fields where they are historically disadvantaged to genocide? Are you effiing kidding me?

 

[ryansgs]

Sooo we're comparing a programme which allows small amounts of minorities to enter fields where they are historically disadvantaged to genocide? Are you effiing kidding me?

I got a little carried away at the end there. But the point was favoritism occurred there as it occurring here now.

Historically disadvantaged? Then by that logic the Scottish should qualify for AA b/c they were oppressed for a long time by the English in the past. Why stop there? At one point or another in history almost all groups of people were oppressed by another group. So technically we should all qualify for it.

Giving favoritism to certain people solely by the way they look is a rejection of equality, b/c it is indicative that some are greater than others in the eyes of society. I know, you're worried if AA was taken away then schools would start discriminating against people. Don't worry, the laws make it so that the price to pay for any school or business to be discriminatory is so steep no sane person will partake in it. So institutional racism is a fantasy now and an artifact of the past. What there should be is no favoritism (equal treatment for all) and the best or most qualified applicants (in the eyes of the school) get accepted.

 

[Dbate]

I got a little carried away at the end there. But the point was favoritism occurred there as it occurring here now.

Historically disadvantaged? Then by that logic the Scottish should qualify for AA b/c they were oppressed for a long time by the English in the past. Why stop there? At one point or another in history almost all groups of people were oppressed by another group. So technically we should all qualify for it.

Giving favoritism to certain people solely by the way they look is a rejection of equality, b/c it is indicative that some are greater than others in the eyes of society. I know, you're worried if AA was taken away then schools would start discriminating against people. Don't worry, the laws make it so that the price to pay for any school or business to be discriminatory is so steep no sane person will partake in it. So institutional racism is a fantasy now and an artifact of the past. What there should be is no favoritism (equal treatment for all) and the best or most qualified applicants (in the eyes of the school) get accepted.

This shows a blaring disregard (or ignorance) of both colonial and more recent history.

 

[Lexdiamondz]

Historically disadvantaged? Then by that logic the Scottish should qualify for AA b/c they were oppressed for a long time by the English in the past. Why stop there? At one point or another in history almost all groups of people were oppressed by another group. So technically we should all qualify for it.

But how many of those groups were systematically stripped of their culture, restricted from acquiring knowledge, skills and property, and forced to compete in society with people infinitely more advantaged than they? How many of those groups have been forced to live with those same groups that oppressed them for most of their history?

And if technically "we all should qualify for it" then that's an issue that you should take up with the respective groups that oppressed you. First of all the Scottish were never oppressed by the English to the same extent as people of colour were in the United States, and they have the benefit of self-determination and institutions which are capable of supporting themselves...all facts which make their situation not analogous to the situation of minorities in the United States.

Giving favoritism to certain people solely by the way they look is a rejection of equality, b/c it is indicative that some are greater than others in the eyes of society. I know, you're worried if AA was taken away then schools would start discriminating against people.

Discrimination already occurs against people in the job market and in other arenas in society. Even with affirmative action, the unemployment rate of college-educated minorities is still higher than that of whites, and a white male with a prison record is MORE likely to be employed than a black male with a clean slate.

Don't worry, the laws make it so that the price to pay for any school or business to be discriminatory is so steep no sane person will partake in it. So institutional racism is a fantasy now and an artifact of the past. What there should be is no favoritism (equal treatment for all) and the best or most qualified applicants (in the eyes of the school) get accepted.

LMAO okay.

 

[ryansgs]

NVM. I think I understand better now. I was forgetting certain things that happened. Thank you @Lexdiamondz I didnt full understand the purpose of AA until you plainly explained to me why it is here.

 

[DrHart]

I think applicants (especially white applicants) tend to get frustrated at URM applicants... Mostly because given two identical applications, schools will pick the minority. This holds true at least for my undergrad experience and I would assume for medical school as well. I think once everyone gets settled into a career this frustration dies down some. Just my opinion

 

[ryansgs]

I think applicants (especially white applicants) tend to get frustrated at URM applicants... Mostly because given two identical applications, schools will pick the minority. This holds true at least for my undergrad experience and I would assume for medical school as well. I think once everyone gets settled into a career this frustration dies down some. Just my opinion

I'm not frustrated at anything. I'm a recent immigrant from eastern Europe and we never had anything like this back in my country. It's just something I noticed that seemed a bit strange/unfair to some people. But now that I know the whole story I think I understand it better and why it is needed.

 

[MelonMan]

Since you don't seem to have any decency, why don't I leave you with one my own. Go **** yourself, douchebag. You can't come up with any legitimate points, so you make personal attacks like a whiny little b****.

So you edited your post at 10:32 am to include this extra bit about me being a whiny little b****? How sad are you. The next day you edit your post to include that. Laughable.

 

[yos]

I think this whole historically disadvantaged argument is a bit disingenuous.

" And often “racial” preferences are not linked to any kind of historic disadvantage. A recent study at Harvard Law School found that only 30 percent of the blacks at Harvard had four African-American grandparents. And the other 70 percent were either from mixed race families or were first- or second-generation immigrants. So there again, you see the schools casting about. "

http://www.nj.com/njvoices/index.ssf/2013/03/qa_should_affirmative_action_f.html


I don't understand why so many people want to protect the system as it is right now. It seems to have strayed so far from what it once was.

 

[yos]

Unfortunately this doesn't hold true for job applications so looks like the poor trodden down white students will get their advantage that way.

www.chicagobooth.edu/capideas/spring03/racialbias.html

Yep, anyone with an ethic sounding name is much, much, less likely to be called in for an interview. Unfortunately this affects Asians just as much if not more than it would most URM applicants. Why is it fair then that whites get preferential treatment in AA over Asians?

The whole system is just screwed up and the schools are largely to blame for gaming the system and steering it away from the original goals of AA programs.

 

[prado]

Since you don't seem to have any decency, why don't I leave you with one my own. Go **** yourself, douchebag. You can't come up with any legitimate points, so you make personal attacks like a whiny little b****.

In for the ban

 

[DrHart]

I'm not frustrated at anything. I'm a recent immigrant from eastern Europe and we never had anything like this back in my country. It's just something I noticed that seemed a bit strange/unfair to some people. But now that I know the whole story I think I understand it better and why it is needed.

I guess then I should say American born, white applicants. I feel like 2nd or 3rd generation, white college/med school applicants can get frustrated at the fact that schools can pick a minority of equal or lesser qualification... Just because of their heritage. Granted, I'm not necessarily saying its wrong. There are consequences to our country's actions... It's just frustrating for the current generation that has to pay the price