Should High Schoolers Directly Start Medical Schools as an Approach to Addressing Physician Shortage and the URM Gap?

[SpicyHotSauce]

As interview season is soon upon us, I started brainstorming topics and ideas to talk about in interviews. One big topic as we know that affects us in US is physician shortage.

I recently read an interesting article from the BBC on how England is trying to address its physician shortage:

Ministers set out plan to train and keep more NHS staff

The government says measures including shorter medical degrees will help plug gaps in the workforce.

www.bbc.com

An interesting idea that caught my eye in this article is:
"A consultation on whether five-year medical degrees could be shortened by a year will also be launched."

It is interesting to me that England is considering shortening their medical school from 5 years to 4 years (where students already directly enter medical school from high school!).

I was thinking what if we had this approach here in the US? This might even be a good approach to tackle the huge disparity for races that are underrepresented in medicine.

From the discussions earlier this month about raced based admissions, it seems like a major reason for why URMs are underrepresented is because of the lack of resources (mainly money and time) to apply to medical schools (such as not having the time to pursue activities such as research and volunteering and instead work to support themselves).

If high schoolers were to be directly admitted to medical school, less money and time would be necessary to be invested to prepare and apply to medical school (save a lot of money and time used to complete a bachelor's degree). This could be a huge benefit to URMs. We could simultaneously make it easier for URM students to apply to medical school and address the physician shortage and the URM gap.

Queen's university in Canada has something like this in place (2 years of undergraduate study + 4 years of medical school combined, similar to a BS/MD combined degree which totals to 6 years total straight after high school) for Black and Indigenous Canadian high schoolers.

What are your thoughts? Are there any points I did not consider and would be a recipe for a disaster in the longer run?

Would love to listen to everyone's perspectives on this and any other way to address the physician shortage!


Edit: It is not my intention to make this about race-based admissions. Please keep this at a minimum since that topic has been addressed already. I am more interested in addressing physician shortages and comparing it to what other countries have done/are doing that we may learn from and implement.

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[LizzyM]

A few problems with this:

Been there, done that. The people who were admitted needed to be stronger coming out of high school than you can even imagine. (URM students are more likely than others to attend underperforming high schools and to be unready for the rigors of a BS+MD program.) The people you might imagine who have parents pushing them to be doctors and to do so as quickly as possible make up the bulk of the applicants.

Once in college, the BS+MD students tended to glide with very little hustle for research and service (why should they exert themselves, they've already got the golden ticket) so they ended up being weaker candidates than those admitted in the traditional way when they arrived for M1 year.

Once in medical school, many were just turning 21 and of legal drinking age. M1 is not a good time to toast to everyone's 21st.

While most students, and society, benefit from some life experience between college and medical school, and the maturity that comes with that, the 2 year pipeline to medical school compared with the five to seven year pipeline, makes this painfully obvious.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

It already happens to a smaller scale, and I expect more interest in adding articulation agreements in the near future. You need something more systematic to really affect the URM gap though.

13-year-old accepted to medical school: 'Don't let anybody tell you no'

She's currently enrolled in two undergraduate programs at Arizona State University and Oakwood University and hopes to start medical school in 2024.

abc7ny.com

 

[LizzyM]

The only thing that increases the number of physicians is increasing the number of residency slots.

 

[Goro]

There is not a physician shortage, just a maldistribution. People just don't feel like practicing in, say, Jonesboro, AR or Kalispell, MT.

 

[LunaOri]

I would never want to admit medical students directly from high school. Let kids be kids, and start medical school AFTER they have grown up.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

From the discussions earlier this month about raced based admissions, it seems like a major reason for why URMs are underrepresented is because of the lack of resources (mainly money and time) to apply to medical schools (such as not having the time to pursue activities such as research and volunteering and instead work to support themselves).

Just coming back to the major question: why do URM's lack resources? Why has our society allowed this huge disparity of resources to perpetuate? I caution against the argument that URM's lack resources to apply to medical schools because there is a larger more systemic issue working.

Money and time are signs of priorities. I review applications with an eye on how much time one puts into preparing for the profession. I look at parental EO, SES indicators, essay writing, test prep, and educational and work history as indicators of money and resources that can be prioritized. I also look at the rising student debt costs and the perceived promise of a "return on investment" when educating new physicians. But it's not about the priorities of the student as much as it also shows the priorities of people or institutions that invest in the student.

Opportunities happen due to years of timely preparation and investment in systems to prepare students. Education is governed at the local level and is never coordinated with expectations at higher education or business. Many recent collaborations between local industries and community colleges (and sometimes schools) exist to keep a local economy afloat. If our society wanted more supportive pathways from classroom to career, it could fund them and make standards uniform across a county, a state, a nation. Property taxes fund school districts, and zip codes are a proxy of wealth and investment from a community, a state, and a nation. Those with resources can move their families to another zip code or place their children in a private or charter school. [Reference redlining.] Some charters are only open to economically disadvantaged students, but overall, the charters don't want to be "regulated." Again, no coordination to a larger strategic vision of economic development, much less a plan to close the healthcare workforce gap.

Land/space has been the marker of wealth and power for centuries/millennia. URM's have been denied the opportunity to own land, and that is one simple reason why they lack the resources. Those with land (and power and wealth) do not want to share it, and that is what is playing out in this moment... the denial of access due to not being privileged according to a historical (centuries-old) power hierarchy based on race. [Insert Greenwood/Black Wall Street/Tulsa here.]

Follow the schools that seem to be the best in a specific state and tie it into a zip code. Look at the "powerhouse" football schools at the high school level, and look at the source of their success (who funds them). The best school teams are the ones that have a strong and enthusiastic donor base on a solid foundation of tax support (either number of students at the school, or number of full-paying students with wealthy parents at privates). Schools from poorer districts don't usually have football teams with traditions of success without a significant donor pool supporting them.

Much more detail in Becoming a Student Doctor.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Just coming back to the major question: why do URM's lack resources? Why has our society allowed this huge disparity of resources to perpetuate? I caution against the argument that URM's lack resources to apply to medical schools because there is a larger more systemic issue working.

Money and time are signs of priorities. I review applications with an eye on how much time one puts into preparing for the profession. I look at parental EO, SES indicators, essay writing, test prep, and educational and work history as indicators of money and resources that can be prioritized. I also look at the rising student debt costs and the perceived promise of a "return on investment" when educating new physicians. But it's not about the priorities of the student as much as it also shows the priorities of people or institutions that invest in the student.

Opportunities happen due to years of timely preparation and investment in systems to prepare students. Education is governed at the local level and is never coordinated with expectations at higher education or business. Many recent collaborations between local industries and community colleges (and sometimes schools) exist to keep a local economy afloat. If our society wanted more supportive pathways from classroom to career, it could fund them and make standards uniform across a county, a state, a nation. Property taxes fund school districts, and zip codes are a proxy of wealth and investment from a community, a state, and a nation. Those with resources can move their families to another zip code or place their children in a private or charter school. [Reference redlining.] Some charters are only open to economically disadvantaged students, but overall, the charters don't want to be "regulated." Again, no coordination to a larger strategic vision of economic development, much less a plan to close the healthcare workforce gap.

Land/space has been the marker of wealth and power for centuries/millennia. URM's have been denied the opportunity to own land, and that is one simple reason why they lack the resources. Those with land (and power and wealth) do not want to share it, and that is what is playing out in this moment... the denial of access due to not being privileged according to a historical (centuries-old) power hierarchy based on race. [Insert Greenwood/Black Wall Street/Tulsa here.]

Follow the schools that seem to be the best in a specific state and tie it into a zip code. Look at the "powerhouse" football schools at the high school level, and look at the source of their success (who funds them). The best school teams are the ones that have a strong and enthusiastic donor base on a solid foundation of tax support (either number of students at the school, or number of full-paying students with wealthy parents at privates). Schools from poorer districts don't usually have football teams with traditions of success without a significant donor pool supporting them.

Much more detail in Becoming a Student Doctor.

This is a charter school outside Phila. They are frequently in the State High School football championship. It focuses on inner city students from Phila. Check out their website. They are a very impressive organization and I think represents an effective model for undeserved students and should be expanded nationwide.

Imhotep Institute Charter High School
(215) 438-4140

Imhotep Institute Charter High School - Google Search

 

[deleted961749]

I like the idea. Having med school come after 4 years of college seems like yet another old-school barrier to entry which favors the wealthy. It’s hard enough to get underrepresented students enrolled proportionally at the undergrad level.

 

[gyngyn]

Anyone who has had a BS/MD program has seen that this model simply doesn't work in the US.
Sure, it's a boon to the undergrad and the over-reaching guardians, not so much for the medical school or at least half of the young victims.
The resulting wreckage of souls is hard to witness, much less endorse.

 

[MrPuff]

Having 17-year-olds entering med school just seems like a really bad idea.

 

[deleted961749]

What exactly about the US makes this infeasible when it works in other countries? UK physicians are no less competent from a clinical perspective than their American equivalents. Regretting a career in medicine is not a BS/MD-specific phenomenon as far as I know, but I haven’t seen any studies on it. Of note, physician burnout seems equally alarming in both the UK and the US: about two-thirds (!) in the most recent surveys.

One interesting argument I heard is that the required bachelor degree perhaps gives US medical graduates a leg up over their foreign counterparts if they intend to pursue research careers. However, I would argue that those people could be just as well if not better served by entering med school right after high school and doing an MD/PhD. Similarly, taking Oxford as an example of the UK system, research-minded individuals could do a BM BCh followed by a PhD or DM. In either case, such individuals would be able to graduate in nearly the same time as US MDs but with far stronger research skills. More importantly, the vast majority of students who just want to practice medicine would be able to do so sooner while jumping through fewer hoops.

 

[LizzyM]

What exactly about the US makes this infeasible when it works in other countries? UK physicians are no less competent from a clinical perspective than their American equivalents. Regretting a career in medicine is not a BS/MD-specific phenomenon as far as I know, but I haven’t seen any studies on it. Of note, physician burnout seems equally alarming in both the UK and the US: about two-thirds (!) in the most recent surveys.

One interesting argument I heard is that the required bachelor degree perhaps gives US medical graduates a leg up over their foreign counterparts if they intend to pursue research careers. However, I would argue that those people could be just as well if not better served by entering med school right after high school and doing an MD/PhD. Similarly, taking Oxford as an example of the UK system, research-minded individuals could do a BM BCh followed by a PhD or DM. In either case, such individuals would be able to graduate in nearly the same time as US MDs but with far stronger research skills. More importantly, the vast majority of students who just want to practice medicine would be able to do so sooner while jumping through fewer hoops.

Do keep in mind that the high school to med school trajectory closes off medical school as a second career or for those who come to a decision later than junior year of HS. As Americans we love the opportunity to make a choice later in life or to change trajectories while in college or after a few years out.

We also value the diversity of thought in a medical school classroom where physics majors mix with philosophy majors and history majors and biomedical engineers. There is something to be said for an education in the liberal arts or engineering before pursing medical school.

 

[deleted961749]

Do keep in mind that the high school to med school trajectory closes off medical school as a second career or for those who come to a decision later than junior year of HS. As Americans we love the opportunity to make a choice later in life or to change trajectories while in college or after a few years out.

We also value the diversity of thought in a medical school classroom where physics majors mix with philosophy majors and history majors and biomedical engineers. There is something to be said for an education in the liberal arts or engineering before pursing medical school.

This is incorrect. Oxford, for example, goes out of its way to encourage what they call mature students to apply. I think their system is, in fact, far less limiting because there is no implicit or explicit requirement of a prior college degree.

I get that the US is big on liberal arts education and diversity of thought. In that case, why shut the door on the many people who either do not or cannot do the four-year degree necessary even to have a chance?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Do keep in mind that the high school to med school trajectory closes off medical school as a second career or for those who come to a decision later than junior year of HS. As Americans we love the opportunity to make a choice later in life or to change trajectories while in college or after a few years out.

We also value the diversity of thought in a medical school classroom where physics majors mix with philosophy majors and history majors and biomedical engineers. There is something to be said for an education in the liberal arts or engineering before pursing medical school.

What exactly are the benefits of diversity of thought in medical school classroom?

 

[gyngyn]

What exactly are the benefits of diversity of thought in medical school classroom?

"Echo Chamber: an environment in which a person encounters only beliefs or opinions that coincide with their own, so that their existing views are reinforced and alternative ideas are not considered." Oxford languages

This is definitely not what we are looking for in a service profession.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

"Echo Chamber: an environment in which a person encounters only beliefs or opinions that coincide with their own, so that their existing views are reinforced and alternative ideas are not considered." Oxford languages

This is definitely not what we are looking for in a service profession.

This can’t be taught in high schools or medical schools and needs to be established/proved prior to joining medical schools?

 

[gyngyn]

This can’t be taught in high schools or medical schools and needs to be established/proved prior to joining medical schools?

People develop their opinions over time based on their experience of life.

 

[senecca]

This can’t be taught in high schools or medical schools and needs to be established/proved prior to joining medical schools?

I agree with you. Also, I don’t think any students exchange any diversity of thoughts, opinions or viewpoints on college campus. This is something conjured up out of thin air. If there is indeed any such benefit, I have a bigger and better solution. We can create a common digital platform for all medical students, law students or undergraduate students across the country and they can share their diversity of thoughts.

Edit: typos

 

[Goro]

You know what the difference between high and and a college freshman is?

Summer vacation.

 

[LizzyM]

It is not just "diversity of opinion" but differences in life experiences and knowledge base. It amazes me when I do small group work with M2 students that their funds of knowledge are dramatically different and wonderful -- we do not expect everyone to have the same knowledge base when it comes to issues around cultures, religious practices, cutting edge technology, languages, health law, etc. It is part of the problem based learning that students share what they know and put the pieces together. If we have a conversation about euthanasia, we have students bringing vastly different experiences and viewpoints to the table including what they learned in undergrad in courses in law, philosophy, sociology, literature, film studies, etc.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

People develop their opinions over time based on their experience of life.

Then why don’t all colleges make that as a requirement i.e. we need certain years of real life experiences and like one adcom thinks, come up with minimum age ( > 24)?

 

[Plut0]

It is entirely possible to start medical education right after high school as evidenced by the fact that the entire rest of the world do so. However, US medical schools have no incentives to switch. This is because the cost of delaying admission until after undergrad is not borne by the medical schools, but by students and society in the form of tuition and less high-value-added attending physician work years.

If the goal is to have incoming medical students study a variety of undergraduate majors, then the medical schools are currently doing a very poor job. The consensus on SDN seems to be that medicals schools will not overlook low GPAs from hard majors like maths and engineering or from being a double major, which effectively deters students from pursuing them.

 

[LizzyM]

It is entirely possible to start medical education right after high school as evidenced by the fact that the entire rest of the world do so. However, US medical schools have no incentives to switch. This is because the cost of delaying admission until after undergrad is not borne by the medical schools, but by students and society in the form of tuition and less high-value-added attending physician work years.

If the goal is to have incoming medical students study a variety of undergraduate majors, then the medical schools are currently doing a very poor job. The consensus on SDN seems to be that medicals schools will not overlook low GPAs from hard majors like maths and engineering or from being a double major, which effectively deters students from pursuing them.

https://www.aamc.org/media/6061/download?attachment

 

[deleted961749]

https://www.aamc.org/media/6061/download?attachment

This kinda proves his/her point. Math/physical science majors have similar (or even higher) average applicant and matriculant GPAs than every other major. They are given no leeway during the application process for taking a harder course load, and, indeed, many are likely weeded out of applying altogether.

 

[LunaOri]

Question: have any of those commenting in favor of high-school-to-med-school on this thread gone to medical school (US or elsewhere)?

 

[LizzyM]

This kinda proves his/her point. Math/physical science majors have similar (or even higher) average applicant and matriculant GPAs than every other major. They are given no leeway during the application process for taking a harder course load, and, indeed, many are likely weeded out of applying altogether.

I took the higher average GPAs within the applicant pool as evidence that they are the smartest (book smart) of the bunch. They are also the most successful (IIRC) in terms of proportion admitted.

 

[IAskQuestionsOnly]

Depends on the person, but I think med school is hard enough that people need an opportunity to fail at everything else they want to do so they dedicate their 1000% of energy into studying. Any shred of doubt of their choice will make medicine very very unsatisfying to them.
And then you get all the people that say "shoulda gone CS" when they have no idea what the IT/CS world is like.

I definitely would have failed if I went straight from high school to med school for sure!

 

[deleted961749]

I took the higher average GPAs within the applicant pool as evidence that they are the smartest (book smart) of the bunch. They are also the most successful (IIRC) in terms of proportion admitted.

The lower average GPA of engineering and math majors is well-documented (take a look at Latin honors cutoffs across different undergraduate colleges within a given university). The fact that applicants of these majors have a slightly (not sure if statistically significant) higher average GPA simply means there is either self-selection or weed-out at play here. In any case, this provides no evidence that med schools are making any allowances for potentially lower GPAs from applicants with this background.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

HS to med school is a bad idea. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Being a physician requires more than the ability to pass a test. There are psycho/social aspects to being a physician that require a higher level of maturity. Many haven't reached full maturity and are not ready to start residency by age 24. Why the rush? You don't get bonus points or paid more by insurances for graduating early. Doctors have to connect with patients and project warmth. Right now my former school is considering a class on professionalism to teach 1 yrs how to introduce yourself, make eye contact, proper dress, and to show up on time. We have done this experiment before and it didn't work very well. Just because some other country does this, why should we lower our standards?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

HS to med school is a bad idea. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. Being a physician requires more than the ability to pass a test. There are psycho/social aspects to being a physician that require a higher level of maturity. Many haven't reached full maturity and are not ready to start residency by age 24. Why the rush? You don't get bonus points or paid more by insurances for graduating early. Doctors have to connect with patients and project warmth. Right now my former school is considering a class on professionalism to teach 1 yrs how to introduce yourself, make eye contact, proper dress, and to show up on time. We have done this experiment before and it didn't work very well. Just because some other country does this, why should we lower our standards?

Curious, what didn’t work?

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Question: have any of those commenting in favor of high-school-to-med-school on this thread gone to medical school (US or elsewhere)?

Most of them have family members (siblings/spouses) and friends who have gone to medical schools and see them doing perfectly fine ☺️ is every one commenting here have medical degree or in medical school?

 

[IAskQuestionsOnly]

Most of them have family members (siblings/spouses) and friends who have gone to medical schools and see them doing perfectly fine ☺️ is every one commenting here have medical degree or in medical school?

yup. 3rd year med student. Worked for a long time to know for sure that medicine was the only thing worth suffering for.

Let ZEUS STRIKE ME DOWN with a ruptured aneurysm before I fail out!

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Curious, what didn’t work?

Well, speaking from the program in our state years ago, the students all became became MDs. I believe it was a 6 yr BS to MD program then. Students complained they didn't have a peer group in their class as most were older than them. This caused them to be anxious and a then felt they had to prove to their classmates they belonged. This caused some alienation with their classmates. They also had issues on clinicals where they had difficulty interviewing and counseling. I believe the program currently exists , but is now 7 years. Of course some exceptional people navigated the program just fine, but they would also have navigated just fine in 8 years. Not sure I understand the rush.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Well, speaking from the program in our state years ago, the students all became became MDs. I believe it was a 6 yr BS to MD program then. Students complained they didn't have a peer group in their class as most were older than them. This caused them to be anxious and a then felt they had to prove to their classmates they belonged. This caused some alienation with their classmates. They also had issues on clinicals where they had difficulty interviewing and counseling. I believe the program currently exists , but is now 7 years. Of course some exceptional people navigated the program just fine, but they would also have navigated just fine in 8 years. Not sure I understand the rush.

I do agree with there is no rush and my child declined BSMD and got full four years UG experience, but what I don’t understand is some here advocating more experiences beyond undergraduate for everyone. Without gap years medicine takes in US takes much longer than in other countries and lot of them immigrate to US and doing same jobs as US medical graduates.

 

[IAskQuestionsOnly]

I do agree with there is no rush and my child declined BSMD and got full four years UG experience, but what I don’t understand is some here advocating more experiences beyond undergraduate for everyone. Without gap years medicine takes in US takes much longer than in other countries and lot of them immigrate to US and doing same jobs as US medical graduates.

true, I do think those with early/young talent shouldn't be penalized for the "no child left behind" mentality of medicine.....aka, slowing other down for people like me *cough who couldn't figure out my life fast enough. Not sure how many of these people exist. But these spots will always end up super competitive because parents will shove their kids through even if they don't like it at that age.

But some form of fast track through the system should be allowed.

 

[deleted961749]

Well, speaking from the program in our state years ago, the students all became became MDs. I believe it was a 6 yr BS to MD program then. Students complained they didn't have a peer group in their class as most were older than them. This caused them to be anxious and a then felt they had to prove to their classmates they belonged. This caused some alienation with their classmates. They also had issues on clinicals where they had difficulty interviewing and counseling. I believe the program currently exists , but is now 7 years. Of course some exceptional people navigated the program just fine, but they would also have navigated just fine in 8 years. Not sure I understand the rush.

Very interesting. I think the alienation that you mentioned might just be a consequence of being a minority in their classes (the same way racial minorities or even older, non-traditional students might feel isolated in theirs). A bigger concern is the difficulties these students had clinically. Did they quantify how much worse the students were doing compared to their non-BSMD peers? I wonder if the stress of their isolation contributed to their lackluster performance.

I don't think the point is to rush people through (although I do think the MD/PhD pathway would be a lot more popular if it were 4 years shorter). Like the original poster, I instead see it as a very viable way of greatly lowering the barrier to entry by doing away with a requirement that other countries have managed just fine without.

 

[LunaOri]

Most of them have family members (siblings/spouses) and friends who have gone to medical schools and see them doing perfectly fine ☺️ is every one commenting here have medical degree or in medical school?

Yup! Med school graduate and current faculty member here. How about you?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I do agree with there is no rush and my child declined BSMD and got full four years UG experience, but what I don’t understand is some here advocating more experiences beyond undergraduate for everyone. Without gap years medicine takes in US takes much longer than in other countries and lot of them immigrate to US and doing same jobs as US medical graduates.

Just to add some texture to your comments. An IMG cannot just come to the US and practice medicine. They have to complete a full US residecy before being eligible for a license. I do believe Tennessee might change this in their State. Secondly, other countries, ( the UK for one), doesn't allow a Registrar,(Resident physician) to practice before obtaining a Consultant,(Attending) position. The number of Consultant positions are fixed by the govt, so the Registrar may have to function as a Resident for years as Consultant positions only open up through retirement or death. America front loads the extra time and the UK backloads the time to becoming an attending. I do agree the gap years for research do little to enhance the quality of physician applicants. Teaching students to be physician scientists is the med school's job.

 

[senecca]

An IMG cannot just come to the US and practice medicine. They have to complete a full US residecy before being eligible for a license.

True. But the point is that they went to medical school right out of high school and they come over here , successfully complete residency and practice without any issues.

IMO, requirement of a 4 year degree prior to medical school is overkill. If needed , we can have a 2 year premed associate degree with all prerequisite courses. Medical schools care only about the prerequisite courses, not the major of the 4 year degree. Then, why bother ? Those who couldn’t get into medical schools can choose to complete a 4 year degree in two years with credits from the associate degree. It is almost impossible for ORM applicants without at least one gap year to get in, most of the ORMs who get 4+ interviews seem to have at least two gap years. We should do everything possible to reduce the number of years , not increase.

Also, to make the best use of the limited residency slots, we have to set a maximum age limit to enter medical school i.e say 25 years. A 25 year old matriculant give you 15 more years of service than a 40 year old applicant. If the age limit is known, aspirants will plan accordingly.

IMO, the only sure way to address physician shortage in rural and underserved areas is to legally mandate a fixed period of service for every physician with great pay.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Just to add some texture to your comments. An IMG cannot just come to the US and practice medicine. They have to complete a full US residecy before being eligible for a license. I do believe Tennessee might change this in their State. Secondly, other countries, ( the UK for one), doesn't allow a Registrar,(Resident physician) to practice before obtaining a Consultant,(Attending) position. The number of Consultant positions are fixed by the govt, so the Registrar may have to function as a Resident for years as Consultant positions only open up through retirement or death. America front loads the extra time and the UK backloads the time to becoming an attending. I do agree the gap years for research do little to enhance the quality of physician applicants. Teaching students to be physician scientists is the med school's job.

I am aware that an IMG has to go thru residency process (few in the family and lot of friends and their spouses). My issue is gap years pushed by some adcoms here. I don’t have issue with students needing to have some clinical and non-clinical volunteering, some research experience and liberal education classes and actually recommend them. As others said fours years is overkill and pushing for gap years is extreme. Gap years doesn’t equate maturity (as claimed ).For my reference my child declined BSMD (with partial scholarship), opted for full tuition scholarship UG (over Ivy) and got 200+ of clinical and no clinical hours each, 2000 hours of first author research and 100th percentile stats but one adcom here said he is aiming high (due to lack of thousands of service hours) but his premed advisor disagreed and recommended top schools only. He had very successful cycle few years back (including scholarships) and probably youngest in the class but doing well.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

I am aware that an IMG has to go thru residency process (few in the family and lot of friends and their spouses). My issue is gap years pushed by some adcoms here. I don’t have issue with students needing to have some clinical and non-clinical volunteering, some research experience and liberal education classes and actually recommend them. As others said fours years is overkill and pushing for gap years is extreme. Gap years doesn’t equate maturity (as claimed ).For my reference my child declined BSMD (with partial scholarship), opted for full tuition scholarship UG (over Ivy) and got 200+ of clinical and no clinical hours each, 2000 hours of first author research and 100th percentile stats but one adcom here said he is aiming high (due to lack of thousands of service hours) but his premed advisor disagreed and recommended top schools only. He had very successful cycle few years back (including scholarships) and probably youngest in the class but doing well.

Well, the advice you describe is worth what you paid for it. People and institutions do things because they can. As the system becomes more competitive, schools need to discriminate,(select applicants) and they keep raising the bar. I agree a lot of this gap year stuff is becoming excessive. With the advent of all the new schools and mid level encroachment, I see the whole process losing its luster and hence the competitiveness . Some undergrads are lowering tuition to attract applicants. I think med schools are next. This from Kiplinger Magazine

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Well, the advice you describe is worth what you paid for it. People and institutions do things because they can. As the system becomes more competitive, schools need to discriminate,(select applicants) and they keep raising the bar. I agree a lot of this gap year stuff is becoming excessive. With the advent of all the new schools and mid level encroachment, I see the whole process losing its luster and hence the competitiveness . Some undergrads are lowering tuition to attract pelicans. I think med schools are next. This from Kiplinger MagazineView attachment 374522

Yes, it was free advice and appreciate it but felt it was biased. Yes, admissions process and college costs are out of control and medicine is becoming less lucrative each year. I know some say it’s service profession but to attract and keep smart people we need to remove the imbalances. I participate here only to counter certain viewpoints even though I don’t have any skin in the game.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Yup! Med school graduate and current faculty member here. How about you?

Nice, didn’t know that since your profile doesn’t say physician (and verified). I am a concerned citizen who thinks medical admissions are out of control. My posts above gives my background info.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

I can speak as someone who recruited and monitored undergrads in six-year or seven-year guaranteed admissions tracks. The standards set by the undergrad institution basically were rewards for highly competitive students that could include significant undergrad scholarship money. Unlike a lot of others, I did ask to meet with the students as undergrads every year before they transitioned via an interview to start school (dental or medical) so I had confidence they had maturity and could not stand out as members of their class the way predecessors did.

There are other guaranteed tracks that have specifically catered to underrepresented or marginalized communities. We're not sure how they are affected by the SFFA rulings. I anticipate more MOU's coming down the road, but there needs to still be advising and student support for these individuals so they feel like they belong once they hit professional school.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

I can speak as someone who recruited and monitored undergrads in six-year or seven-year guaranteed admissions tracks. The standards set by the undergrad institution basically were rewards for highly competitive students that could include significant undergrad scholarship money. Unlike a lot of others, I did ask to meet with the students as undergrads every year before they transitioned via an interview to start school (dental or medical) so I had confidence they had maturity and could not stand out as members of their class the way predecessors did.

There are other guaranteed tracks that have specifically catered to underrepresented or marginalized communities. We're not sure how they are affected by the SFFA rulings. I anticipate more MOU's coming down the road, but there needs to still be advising and student support for these individuals so they feel like they belong once they hit professional school.

Number of BSMD programs are reducing every year, reasons can be speculated only since schools don’t tell. Only couple of top tier schools offer them now.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Number of BSMD programs are reducing every year, reasons can be speculated only since schools don’t tell. Only couple of top tier schools offer them now.

It's probably because the MD schools/faculty don't find the guaranteed track beneficial in meeting enrollment goals. Also, it used to be that if a student got into these programs, the student didn't have to take the MCAT or fill out an AMCAS. Thus their academic data were masked from any analysis of curricular effectiveness or the profiles you see on MSAR. This luxury is no longer preferred policy (though one has to see about whether this still happens with postbac programs with linkages... I don't think so anymore).

Early Decision is also being phased out at many programs.

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

It's probably because the MD schools/faculty don't find the guaranteed track beneficial in meeting enrollment goals. Also, it used to be that if a student got into these programs, the student didn't have to take the MCAT or fill out an AMCAS. Thus their academic data were masked from any analysis of curricular effectiveness or the profiles you see on MSAR. This luxury is no longer preferred policy (though one has to see about whether this still happens with postbac programs with linkages... I don't think so anymore).

Early Decision is also being phased out at many programs.

Seems like they realized only ORMs who are worried about gap years are willing to pay the high cost and impacting the demographics of the medical school. I don’t see need for these programs and discourage students to apply unless they have MCAT anxiety. There are some programs which don’t need MCAT but I believe all students need to fill AMCAS.

I agree there is no reason for ED (and legacy).

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Seems like they realized only ORMs who are worried about gap years are willing to pay the high cost and impacting the demographics of the medical school. I don’t see need for these programs and discourage students to apply unless they have MCAT anxiety.

Bingo... you have hit the importance of paying ...

 

[asdfjkl12321]

Personally, I think 4 years of undergrad really gave me a chance to explore my interests and figure out if this is truly what I want. Considering how many people I knew started out committed to premed and then ending up switching to something else, I don’t think it’s good to have more high schoolers commit to a whole career path with minimal experience and exploration. You really do so much in college and I think it’s a valuable time to figure yourself out.