DISCUSS: New DO schools...

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Goro said:
Yet another McDO School at a time when applications to DO schools are declining, and some of them are having to give seats to people they rejected, or are not filling their classes.
Click to expand...
If applications are declining and people are being accepted after being rejected, this is analogous to third and fourth tier private law schools. About 35,000 people every year go off to law school and 15,000 of them do not have the talent to be a real lawyer. These law schools outside the top 100 take exorbitant tuition money from naive people who will never support themselves as lawyers. If you want to see how heartless this scam is, read this article.

"The Crisis of the American Law School" by Paul Campos

The economist Herbert Stein once remarked that if something cannot go on forever, it will stop. Over the past four decades, the cost of legal education in America has seemed to belie this aphorism: it has gone up relentlessly. Private law school tuition increased by a factor of four in real...
repository.law.umich.edu repository.law.umich.edu
 
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As we all know thousands of qualified applicants get turned away every year by US MD schools. Has any study ever been conducted to determine the percentage or absolute number of qualified MD applicants who simply say, "it's USMD or nothing"? I suspect AACOM has done an internal study that will never see the light of day. Any great statisticians out there?
 
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Obnoxious Dad said:
If applications are declining and people are being accepted after being rejected, this is analogous to third and fourth tier private law schools. About 35,000 people every year go off to law school and 15,000 of them do not have the talent to be a real lawyer. These law schools outside the top 100 take exorbitant tuition money from naive people who will never support themselves as lawyers. If you want to see how heartless this scam is, read this article.

"The Crisis of the American Law School" by Paul Campos

The economist Herbert Stein once remarked that if something cannot go on forever, it will stop. Over the past four decades, the cost of legal education in America has seemed to belie this aphorism: it has gone up relentlessly. Private law school tuition increased by a factor of four in real...
repository.law.umich.edu repository.law.umich.edu
Click to expand...
Spot on, Dad.
Hence my disgust with COCA and the AOA.
 
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I have people who work in healthcare tell me the "DO stigma" is waning, but when I read here, it is alive and well. Are all DO schools undesirable?

It seems an MD acceptance is always preferred over DO, even if cost or home-state are in play? Right now the DO acceptances seem like a consolation prize. Would I pick a brand new DO school? No. Part of an education is what you put into it, so if it's DO or no go, then DO it will be. It does give one pause when DO schools are asking applicants if they will start that august, rather than go through the whole application cycle. And the ignoring of traffic rules on large non-refundable deposits makes then seem desperate. *sigh*
 
ccbbkm said:
I have people who work in healthcare tell me the "DO stigma" is waning, but when I read here, it is alive and well.
Click to expand...
It's waning. We see DOs matching better every year.
ccbbkm said:
Are all DO schools undesirable?
Click to expand...

No, far from it.


ccbbkm said:
It seems an MD acceptance is always preferred over DO, even if cost or home-state are in play?
Click to expand...

MD will open more doors for you. This doesn't mean that one can waltz into any specialty. The competitive firelds are competitive for a reason.
ccbbkm said:
Right now the DO acceptances seem like a consolation prize.
Click to expand...

That depends upon whether one wants to be a doctor or not. Or at least, not lose a year of attending salary by having to reapply.
ccbbkm said:
Would I pick a brand new DO school? No.
Click to expand...

Smart move.
ccbbkm said:
Part of an education is what you put into it, so if it's DO or no go, then DO it will be.
Click to expand...
Smart move redux.
ccbbkm said:
It does give one pause when DO schools are asking applicants if they will start that august, rather than go through the whole application cycle.
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate?
ccbbkm said:
And the ignoring of traffic rules on large non-refundable deposits makes then seem desperate. *sigh*
Click to expand...
Can you elaborate?
 
[mention]Goro [/mention] Several schools over the past few years have failed to fill their classes and have offered last minute seats to applicants from the next cycle. Eg applicant applied May 2024 with anticipated start date July 2025, but is accepted to start July 2024.

Touro Nevada has done this for a couple years now. Have heard of at least one other.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
As we all know thousands of qualified applicants get turned away every year by US MD schools. Has any study ever been conducted to determine the percentage or absolute number of qualified MD applicants who simply say, "it's USMD or nothing"? I suspect AACOM has done an internal study that will never see the light of day. Any great statisticians out there?
Click to expand...
That shouldn't be that difficult with AAMC's help. After all, every DO student under normal application protocols had to complete an AACOMAS and get an AACOMAS ID# along with their AAMC ID# for the MCAT. There's certainly a way to figure out how many AAMC ID#s also had an AACOMAS ID# in post-matriculation analysis.

The key phrase: with AAMC's help.

Alternatively, the AACOMAS GPA/MCAT grid only focuses on matriculants while the AMCAS GPA/MCAT grid focuses on applicants. You could probably do some rough calculations for the same applicant cohorts.
 
TragicalDrFaust said:
[mention]Goro [/mention] Several schools over the past few years have failed to fill their classes and have offered last minute seats to applicants from the next cycle. Eg applicant applied May 2024 with anticipated start date July 2025, but is accepted to start July 2024.

Touro Nevada has done this for a couple years now. Have heard of at least one other.
Click to expand...
Yes, Idaho did this too this summer.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
That shouldn't be that difficult with AAMC's help. After all, every DO student under normal application protocols had to complete an AACOMAS and get an AACOMAS ID# along with their AAMC ID# for the MCAT. There's certainly a way to figure out how many AAMC ID#s also had an AACOMAS ID# in post-matriculation analysis.

The key phrase: with AAMC's help.

Alternatively, the AACOMAS GPA/MCAT grid only focuses on matriculants while the AMCAS GPA/MCAT grid focuses on applicants. You could probably do some rough calculations for the same applicant cohorts.
Click to expand...
These stats would be very interesting. We all hear the 40% acceptance rates for MD. And we can look at the grid by MCAT and GPA that shows the numbers, and how the 40% goes up or down depending on GPA/MCAT. But I have yet to find anything like this for DO. What is the acceptance rate? I would guess it's higher than 40% overall. And then with so many applying to both, it makes the analysis even more difficult.
 
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Goro said:
It's waning. We see DOs matching better every year.


No, far from it.




MD will open more doors for you. This doesn't mean that one can waltz into any specialty. The competitive firelds are competitive for a reason.


That depends upon whether one wants to be a doctor or not. Or at least, not lose a year of attending salary by having to reapply.


Smart move.

Smart move redux.

Can you elaborate?

Can you elaborate?
Click to expand...
I'm glad to hear DO stigma is waning, still hoping for MD but will thrive in DO if that's the final result.

The ignoring of traffic rules and expecting deposit within 30 days, well before December, just feels like the DO school is trying to scoop up and pressure decisions before you get a chance to hear from other schools. In the grand scheme of med school debt the money is small, but it still stings when you're trying to save for the future. I guess those "insurance donations" help keep tuition low there.

Does it seem like most of the new schools are DO? Why not new MD schools?
 
ccbbkm said:
I'm glad to hear DO stigma is waning, still hoping for MD but will thrive in DO if that's the final result.

The ignoring of traffic rules and expecting deposit within 30 days, well before December, just feels like the DO school is trying to scoop up and pressure decisions before you get a chance to hear from other schools. In the grand scheme of med school debt the money is small, but it still stings when you're trying to save for the future. I guess those "insurance donations" help keep tuition low there.

Does it seem like most of the new schools are DO? Why not new MD schools?
Click to expand...
Oh, the MD schools are opening at the same rate as DO schools. Look at Wake Forest, Creighton. AZ ASU, For example.
 
Tell us more about this pilot program...

The Chicago School’s Proposed Illinois College of Osteopathic Medicine Joins a Pilot Program from the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine to Support its Advancement Toward Pre-Accreditation Status - Insight Digital Magazine

The Chicago School’s proposed Illinois College of Osteopathic Medicine (IllinoisCOM) has joined a pilot program offered by the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) to support its progress through the accreditation process.
www.thechicagoschool.edu www.thechicagoschool.edu
 
This is insanity. The way that medicine is taught is the apprenticeship model. We baby docs hang out with our spiritual parents (gray-haired attendings) and learn this job.

With the pace of modern healthcare, there are fewer and fewer attendings who actually take the time to properly teach. When I spend time with students from these new schools, they're mostly students who have never presented a patient to anyone until their fourth year subinternships (or God forbid their intern years if they match somehow).

At some point people are going to start viewing us like all those diploma mill nurse practitioners. But at least we have to do residency. But you can't just show up to residency knowing nothing and expect to become an attending in three years........
 
A different topic for discussion- I wonder if some of these new DO schools especially will be viewed basically as mainland caribbean schools?

There's a brand new DO school in my state whose students have a hard time matching into anything because their school is a scam. We know their school is fake because we see their students, but when those people apply all across the country to match, other people don't have that context.....
 
Hollow Knight said:
A different topic for discussion- I wonder if some of these new DO schools especially will be viewed basically as mainland caribbean schools?

There's a brand new DO school in my state whose students have a hard time matching into anything because their school is a scam. We know their school is fake because we see their students, but when those people apply all across the country to match, other people don't have that context.....
Click to expand...
DO's had a 92 percent match rate and a 99 percent placement rate. No DO student is having a hard time matching into primary care. Even from the newer schools.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
Tell us more about this pilot program...

The Chicago School’s Proposed Illinois College of Osteopathic Medicine Joins a Pilot Program from the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine to Support its Advancement Toward Pre-Accreditation Status - Insight Digital Magazine

The Chicago School’s proposed Illinois College of Osteopathic Medicine (IllinoisCOM) has joined a pilot program offered by the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine (AACOM) to support its progress through the accreditation process.
www.thechicagoschool.edu www.thechicagoschool.edu
Click to expand...
We were selected by AACOM to be a member school even while seeking accreditation. This has never been done before and they had a pool of schools to choose from. We are helping them learn what data would be most helpful to new/aspiring COMs and contributing in the academic development and quality assurance process as well. Our leadership is participating in committees and development classes. Only we and the proposed school in Northern Colorado were selected. We view it as a real honor.
 
Mr.Smile12 said:
Coming in 2026, pending all accreditation approvals...
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Introducing a Next-Generation Medical School - Insight Digital Magazine

Discover how The Chicago School is reimagining medical education for the future.
www.thechicagoschool.edu www.thechicagoschool.edu
www.thechicagoschool.edu

Dedicated Chicago M.D. To Add To Proposed IllinoisCOM Curriculum - Insight Digital Magazine

A look at how a dedicated physician is shaping the future of IllinoisCom’s medical education.
www.thechicagoschool.edu www.thechicagoschool.edu
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Thanks for noticing! We are really proud of what's we are building and believe we will be an outstanding place to train. We have so many great things going for the school...feel free to ask me anything you want to know.
 
Goro said:
Yet another McDO School at a time when applications to DO schools are declining, and some of them are having to give seats to people they rejected, or are not filling their classes.
Click to expand...
Absolutely untrue...we are proud of what we are building. First new medical school of any kind founded in Chicago in nearly 100 years. Lots of great distinguishing features, that we believe will make us stand out. Outstanding partnerships in the city and around the country. Glad to answer any questions you'd like to ask.
 
DoctorDean said:
Absolutely untrue...we are proud of what we are building. First new medical school of any kind founded in Chicago in nearly 100 years. Lots of great distinguishing features, that we believe will make us stand out. Outstanding partnerships in the city and around the country. Glad to answer any questions you'd like to ask.
Click to expand...
Thanks! Deans and admins are welcome to give us insight when and as appropriate. 🙂 Just reach out...
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Goro said:
Oh, the MD schools are opening at the same rate as DO schools. Look at Wake Forest, Creighton. AZ ASU, For example.
Click to expand...
All these additional MDs and DOs competing for residency spots will only translate into more research gap years or PhD being necessary along with MD/DO to match into competitive residencies/specialties.
 
ophthoaspirant said:
All these additional MDs and DOs competing for residency spots will only translate into more research gap years or PhD being necessary along with MD/DO to match into competitive residencies/specialties.
Click to expand...
There are more residency spots than there are MDs and DOs to fill them.
 
ophthoaspirant said:
All these additional MDs and DOs competing for residency spots will only translate into more research gap years or PhD being necessary along with MD/DO to match into competitive residencies/specialties.
Click to expand...
Some schools are struggling to fill seats and awarding enrollment to applicants with lower stats. This will lower the number of competitive applicants to those specialties. The residency match game is evolving quickly, so monitor it and know what you need to do to be a competitive applicant.
 
Angus Avagadro said:
Some schools are struggling to fill seats and awarding enrollment to applicants with lower stats. This will lower the number of competitive applicants to those specialties. The residency match game is evolving quickly, so monitor it and know what you need to do to be a competitive applicant.
Click to expand...
Some schools were even forced to accept applicants they previously rejected this cycle!
 
Folks, I think we may have reached DO saturation levels.

See this table:

The average MCAT score among matriculants at DO schools peaked at 504.73 in 2021 and has dropped every year since 2021. It was 502.97 in 2024. It hasn't been that low since 2017. In fact, the average MCAT score among applicants in 2024 was 502.43. You might almost conclude that MCAT score, at least among actual applicants, was not even a factor. I'm sure that there is self-exclusion from the applicant pool at work.

See Table A16 at this page: 2024 FACTS: Applicants and Matriculants Data

The average MCAT score among matriculants at MD schools has been rising slowly over the last 5 years and hovers around 511-512. The average MCAT among applicants to MD schools has been hovering around 506.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
Folks, I think we may have reached DO saturation levels.

See this table:

The average MCAT score among matriculants at DO schools peaked at 504.73 in 2021 and has dropped every year since 2021. It was 502.97 in 2024. It hasn't been that low since 2017. In fact, the average MCAT score among applicants in 2024 was 502.43. You might almost conclude that MCAT score, at least among actual applicants, was not even a factor. I'm sure that there is self-exclusion from the applicant pool at work.

See Table A16 at this page: 2024 FACTS: Applicants and Matriculants Data

The average MCAT score among matriculants at MD schools has been rising slowly over the last 5 years and hovers around 511-512. The average MCAT among applicants to MD schools has been hovering around 506.
Click to expand...
Agreed. Some schools aren't filling as you correctly point out. Soon their compassion for low stat students will become something predatory-like as more will struggle with taking boards, graduating on time, and matching. More cases of dismissal from not being able to pass national boards on time and left with hundreds of thousands in student loans with no way to pay them back. More cases of not matching and student loans come due with no income while they re apply. Saturation is the right word.
 
Angus Avagadro said:
Agreed. Some schools aren't filling as you correctly point out. Soon their compassion for low stat students will become something predatory-like as more will struggle with taking boards, graduating on time, and matching. More cases of dismissal from not being able to pass national boards on time and left with hundreds of thousands in student loans with no way to pay them back. More cases of not matching and student loans come due with no income while they re apply. Saturation is the right word.
Click to expand...
This is my worry. High attrition rates do tend to get the attention of COCA accreditors, though.

Making things worse is that we are at the end of a demographic bulge and applications to DO and MD schools are declining. Apps to MD schools.are up, oddly.
 
Angus Avagadro said:
Agreed. Some schools aren't filling as you correctly point out. Soon their compassion for low stat students will become something predatory-like as more will struggle with taking boards, graduating on time, and matching. More cases of dismissal from not being able to pass national boards on time and left with hundreds of thousands in student loans with no way to pay them back. More cases of not matching and student loans come due with no income while they re apply. Saturation is the right word.
Click to expand...
This nightmare scenario is akin to third and fourth tier private law schools. Untalented students sinking into colossal debt with no way to pay it off. They'd be better off becoming plumbers.
 
Obnoxious Dad said:
This nightmare scenario is akin to third and fourth tier private law schools. Untalented students sinking into colossal debt with no way to pay it off. They'd be better off becoming plumbers.
Click to expand...
I have a nephew who graduated from such a law school. He has failed the bar 4 times and now works for the State. Funny story, I had a med student who WAS a plumber in a prior life. Hurt his back carrying toilets up stairs. It's very physical work.
 
Goro said:
This is my worry. High attrition rates do tend to get the attention of COCA accreditors, though.

Making things worse is that we are at the end of a demographic bulge and applications to DO and MD schools are declining. Apps to MD schools.are up, oddly.
Click to expand...
This is a risk even at MD schools that admitted a large number of low stat applicants based on affirmative action/DEI policies.
 
Goro said:
There are more residency spots than there are MDs and DOs to fill them.
Click to expand...
Yes but there are the desirable ones and there are the not-so-desirable ones and there has been a bigger increase recently in the latter.
 
Goro said:
This is my worry. High attrition rates do tend to get the attention of COCA accreditors, though.

Making things worse is that we are at the end of a demographic bulge and applications to DO and MD schools are declining. Apps to MD schools.are up, oddly.
Click to expand...

Community Partnership Brings Medical Education to Indian River County

Sept. 3, 2024, Vero Beach, Fla. – The Edward Via College of Osteopathic Medicine (VCOM) and the Indian River County Hospital District, in collaboration with Cleveland Clinic Indian River Hospital, have reached an agreement that will bring a VCOM educational facility to Indian River County.
www.vcom.edu www.vcom.edu
 
ophthoaspirant said:
This one will be a 4 year DO program starting 2026. JEA reviewing plans for four-year medical school at Jacksonville University | Jax Daily Record
Click to expand...
I've already lost track... how many deals schools would this make for Florida six? That's more than California and new york! For Christ's sake Illinois only has one! Michigan has only one, Texas has three.

These newer schools are really shooting themselves in the foot, because they're simply not going to be able to fill their seats, and it will serve them right
 
Goro said:
I've already lost track... how many deals schools would this make for Florida six? That's more than California and new york! For Christ's sake Illinois only has one! Michigan has only one, Texas has three.

These newer schools are really shooting themselves in the foot, because they're simply not going to be able to fill their seats, and it will serve them right
Click to expand...
Do you guys see medicine heading down the same path as law/pharmacy or are board exams/residency overall a big enough filter to prevent that from happening?
 
Goro said:
I've already lost track... how many deals schools would this make for Florida six? That's more than California and new york! For Christ's sake Illinois only has one! Michigan has only one, Texas has three.

These newer schools are really shooting themselves in the foot, because they're simply not going to be able to fill their seats, and it will serve them right
Click to expand...
They will try to fill the seats by accepting applicants with lower stats. With all this increased supply of DOs and to some degree also MDs and Step 1 becoming P/F, desirable residencies are going to become more difficult to get into. You will see more medical students take research years to beef up their resume and more interest in dual-degrees.
 
flextape said:
Do you guys see medicine heading down the same path as law/pharmacy or are board exams/residency overall a big enough filter to prevent that from happening?
Click to expand...
Already Step 1 is P/F and is not really a major filter (except filtering out those that fail). Research is one component that is seeing a bigger emphasis placed on by residency PDs and hopefully that trend continues and keeps medicine from becoming like law/pharmacy.
 
Goro said:
I've already lost track... how many deals schools would this make for Florida six? That's more than California and new york! For Christ's sake Illinois only has one! Michigan has only one, Texas has three.

These newer schools are really shooting themselves in the foot, because they're simply not going to be able to fill their seats, and it will serve them right
Click to expand...
Illinois also is getting more DO programs: The Chicago School’s Proposed Illinois College of Osteopathic Medicine Joins a Pilot Program from the American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine to Support its Advancement Toward Pre-Accreditation Status - Insight Digital Magazine
 
ophthoaspirant said:
They will try to fill the seats by accepting applicants with lower stats. With all this increased supply of DOs and to some degree also MDs and Step 1 becoming P/F, desirable residencies are going to become more difficult to get into. You will see more medical students take research years to beef up their resume and more interest in dual-degrees.
Click to expand...
And more forced into residencies that have trouble filling in specialties they would prefer not to pursue. Worse, not matching at all with no job and school loans come due.
 
ophthoaspirant said:
They will try to fill the seats by accepting applicants with lower stats. With all this increased supply of DOs and to some degree also MDs and Step 1 becoming P/F, desirable residencies are going to become more difficult to get into. You will see more medical students take research years to beef up their resume and more interest in dual-degrees.
Click to expand...
At my school, we've been able to dodge that bullet. BUT, other schools are already having to do that.

There's a point where the kids with such lower stats will either:
A) struggle in med school
B) and/or fail out of med school
C) and/or fail COMLEX

Once you go below 500 on the MCAT, it's not good for success.

Also, as of right now, we're seeing schools that do NOT fill their classes, especially the newest ones.

Do you guys see medicine heading down the same path as law/pharmacy or are board exams/residency overall a big enough filter to prevent that from happening?

I believe that the MD world can avoid this trap, but not the DO world. At some point, the accreditors will step in and force schools to reduce their class sizes, or In'sha Allah, close the weakest schools.
 
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