dogtorpace
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Well. A few points. For context, I am an ER doctor that went to a land grant university as an out of state student. It was my only acceptance after 3 years of applications (shout out to PP9 for recommending I apply). I then repeated first year for failing out. I've just left ER for GP after saying I'd never leave because of corporate money shenanigans from what I thought was my unicorn clinic.
This isn't all that new. Illinois has been doing this (mega-test for midterm and finals) for over ten years. It's got its pros or cons, but it overall works. No regrets there from me as probably the third or fourth class that did it like that.
What is new is the allele program with irats, trats, etc. That was attempted by Illinois under Drs. Aldridge and Aldridge, who are phenomenal educators. However, because it was only in their classes, it didn't work out.
I think the TBL program from the very beginning is actually a good move (see my posts #853 and 856). But it is equally for people who have never been in this type of class to be upset a week in of something new. It's no different than people getting through vet school and start paying those loans and realizing that going to the expensive option was t worth the money.
It is trendy. Like by definition. It wasn't a statement on whether or not it is a good way to teach.
This is a huge problem for me. They simply shouldn't have opened without their faculty figured out. The **only** reason a business would open with minimal staff is the money. They are getting an extra year of income.
Nah uh. Not cool. Telling people to keep their negative opinions to themselves is speech control and censorship that should not exist in a professional program. Absolutely not.
If you're (royal you, not you specifically) are going to say a week is not enough time to say a program is bad, it is also not enough time to say it is good either.
Why wasn't it delivered before classes started??
With what vet school costs, a specialist should be teaching you. Full stop. If we look at a doctorate not as simply an education, but as a business investment where your brain is the product, then it is unacceptable for you to pay as much or more for this education than those that are being taught by specialists.
I'm a pretty good doctor in both the hard and soft skills. I love teaching students on externships. I am no way on the same level as my DACVECC or DACVIM colleagues.
Why is this being considered now after the program has opened?? Why are they not prepared??
Okay, soapbox: no school, none, need a month of NAVLE prep. Whether the school implementing this is the oldest school in the world or the newest.
The pre-clinical and clinical education should absolutely be enough for students to pass NAVLE, especially now that we are out of the immediate shadow of COVID.
The doctors are almost never profit driven, regardless of where they went to school.
The **business** the doctor (or pre-doctor in this case) however is always about business first. Even the land grant universities. We are seeing it out in practice with PE sticking fingers into a variety of corporates that give ER doctors like me 1 tech per doctor at 8pm on a Saturday night.
In this case, we (as a profession) had a school open without their facilities being done, their faculty team fleshed out, and one of the largest class sizes. They didn't open this early to benefit you as the first cohort.
I cannot emphasize this enough: every single veterinarian should care about the universities teaching our future colleagues. You are our future students that we will be bringing into our hospitals to teach on our own time and dime. You are the future baby doctors we will be hiring and mentoring.
Likewise, going back to the business perspective: there are something like 7-10 schools opening in the next 12 months.... In the middle of an economic downturn... Where vet med industry inflation was 6% last month.... Where we are, at our economic core, a luxury service industry where people do not absolutely have to spend their money with us. Opening enough schools to potentially graduate 1500-2000 extra doctors a year is potentially going to lead to a glut of vets where you new grads may be caught in a similar situation as 2008 where there were 2 doctors for every open position. The difference is that tuition then was significantly lower then compared to now.
The next step after that is the direct salary depression that is possible because the PE firms that own predominate stakes in the majority of corporations in vet med will absolutely low ball new grads on salary.
Again: every veterinarian should be invested in not just these new schools, but all of them.
You absolutely don't know that.
This isn't all that new. Illinois has been doing this (mega-test for midterm and finals) for over ten years. It's got its pros or cons, but it overall works. No regrets there from me as probably the third or fourth class that did it like that.
What is new is the allele program with irats, trats, etc. That was attempted by Illinois under Drs. Aldridge and Aldridge, who are phenomenal educators. However, because it was only in their classes, it didn't work out.
I think the TBL program from the very beginning is actually a good move (see my posts #853 and 856). But it is equally for people who have never been in this type of class to be upset a week in of something new. It's no different than people getting through vet school and start paying those loans and realizing that going to the expensive option was t worth the money.
It is trendy. Like by definition. It wasn't a statement on whether or not it is a good way to teach.
This is a huge problem for me. They simply shouldn't have opened without their faculty figured out. The **only** reason a business would open with minimal staff is the money. They are getting an extra year of income.
Nah uh. Not cool. Telling people to keep their negative opinions to themselves is speech control and censorship that should not exist in a professional program. Absolutely not.
If you're (royal you, not you specifically) are going to say a week is not enough time to say a program is bad, it is also not enough time to say it is good either.
Why wasn't it delivered before classes started??
With what vet school costs, a specialist should be teaching you. Full stop. If we look at a doctorate not as simply an education, but as a business investment where your brain is the product, then it is unacceptable for you to pay as much or more for this education than those that are being taught by specialists.
I'm a pretty good doctor in both the hard and soft skills. I love teaching students on externships. I am no way on the same level as my DACVECC or DACVIM colleagues.
Why is this being considered now after the program has opened?? Why are they not prepared??
Okay, soapbox: no school, none, need a month of NAVLE prep. Whether the school implementing this is the oldest school in the world or the newest.
The pre-clinical and clinical education should absolutely be enough for students to pass NAVLE, especially now that we are out of the immediate shadow of COVID.
The doctors are almost never profit driven, regardless of where they went to school.
The **business** the doctor (or pre-doctor in this case) however is always about business first. Even the land grant universities. We are seeing it out in practice with PE sticking fingers into a variety of corporates that give ER doctors like me 1 tech per doctor at 8pm on a Saturday night.
In this case, we (as a profession) had a school open without their facilities being done, their faculty team fleshed out, and one of the largest class sizes. They didn't open this early to benefit you as the first cohort.
I cannot emphasize this enough: every single veterinarian should care about the universities teaching our future colleagues. You are our future students that we will be bringing into our hospitals to teach on our own time and dime. You are the future baby doctors we will be hiring and mentoring.
Likewise, going back to the business perspective: there are something like 7-10 schools opening in the next 12 months.... In the middle of an economic downturn... Where vet med industry inflation was 6% last month.... Where we are, at our economic core, a luxury service industry where people do not absolutely have to spend their money with us. Opening enough schools to potentially graduate 1500-2000 extra doctors a year is potentially going to lead to a glut of vets where you new grads may be caught in a similar situation as 2008 where there were 2 doctors for every open position. The difference is that tuition then was significantly lower then compared to now.
The next step after that is the direct salary depression that is possible because the PE firms that own predominate stakes in the majority of corporations in vet med will absolutely low ball new grads on salary.
Again: every veterinarian should be invested in not just these new schools, but all of them.
You absolutely don't know that.
dogtorpace
New Member
I agree with your perspectives and thank you for bringing them to the table, it's incredibly helpful to me to see all the sides and I am in no way trying to "censor" peoples negative view points, they are completely valid and I apologize if it came off that way.
If you guys are interested, I can make a new thread later down the line giving the "insider perspective" on how our first few semesters have gone. I definitely have been a little too defensive for also only being part of this program a week, it just hurts to hear people say this program will "fail us" as veterinarians. I knew the dean coming into this program and put my faith in her and the rest of the incredible staff and more to come!
I am just hoping for constructive criticism, this thread has shown me that can be wishful thinking. I just want the best for this program and I am trying to convey that here to perspective students and people who may have doubts
To me, having a positive mindset is the best way to ensure things will work out. While that may not always be the case that is the type of veterinarian I want to become, and at the end of the day to me Veterinary school prepares you to pass your NAVLE and become a doctor, regardless of the way the information is taught. As long as you know it and are competent that's what matters, and so far (subject to change) I think we will be compassionate and competent doctors!
And this is probably just a personal thing, but "prestige" in the field just upsets me. The entire field of veterinary medicine is way to competitive and prestigious, I understand being held to a higher standard and I don't disagree with that but the "I'm a better veterinarian than you because I went to x y and z school" just doesn't sit right with me. I understand why we feel that way because we all worked our butts off to get here but I guess I just wish people were slightly more encouraging and less condescending on these forums.
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I would like to make it clear that nobody has said that. We (royal we as in the active members of this forum) have repeated over and over again that vet school is hard to get into- point, blank period. The idea that new schools or the island schools are "easier to get into" is entirely wrong and it's something we need to remind people of each and every year. Additionally, many of the active vets on this site reiterate the point that rankings do not matter and prestige in vet school isn't a thing like it is for MD/DO school.
I understand the desire to defend your school. All of us on this thread have defended our school in one way or another because it's where we are learning to become doctors and achieve our goals. However, we have all had frustrations as well. No veterinary school is perfect, nor will any school ever be despite what anyone says. There are things that are concerning from both a veterinarian and student perspective (although I can only speak on the student perspective).
If you read some of the previous responses here including from the deleted user, you will find that some responses were meant to get a reaction which led to more blunt and straightforward responses. I believe everyone shares the same sentiment that we hope you all have a great experience, and receive a fantastic education. Nobody is hoping for anything else or wishing anything else.
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CeeGee14
U.C Davis c/o 2029
I know it's rough hearing people dumping on the program you worked so hard to get into, but I can't say anything encouraging about a program that has shown that students and the vetmed profession are at the bottom of their priority list. They charge just as, if not more, than other programs that have a teaching hospital and boarded specialists. Even if you don't care about being taught by specialists, like Batty pointed out, you're paying more for less. Opening a whole ass school without specialists, animal handling labs or even proper faculty is just making life unnecessarily difficult for you and your fellow classmates. Vet school is hard enough as it is. You don't need the extra stress of the school dropping the ball on you when they could have just waited an extra year to have everything in order.
Again, this criticism isn't directed at you or anyone in your cohort. You've all worked super hard and are clearly passionate about the field and I look forward to working with you as colleagues in the future. I'm just ticked at LMU's blatant cash grab at the expense of your education.
dogtorpace
New Member
Very well put and thank you for your perspective! I think everything will work out for us here at OP but things always change and I may feel different later down the line!
I'll keep you all updated on how it goes 🫡 Thank you all for your perspectives it's been incredibly helpful, wishing all the best in their academic and future endeavors!!
None of us have said this school will for sure fail you. What we have said is that we are concerned this school at a business level is opening not with the best interest of students in mind. Which I stand by.
Our criticisms:
- school opened without a full facility or faculty ready day 1 for an accelerated program
- program is not any cheaper despite these facts
- new school with a large class size when the industry as a whole very likely doesn't need an increase in doctors
From the perspective of the veterinary industry, these are valid concerns. The only way to make them "constructive" now that the school is open is to demand accountability from the school to have what students need.
We all do. More importantly, we want what's best for the students
No one said this. If anything, us old timers frequently point out prestige means nothing in this industry.
Please point out specific instances of condescending statements. I think I can speak for all of us that we will attempt to convey our thoughts better if you do.
I have nothing of significance to add other than 1) I’m alive 2) I would be PISSED if I showed up and found out my entire curriculum was TBL. I don’t know that I’d necessarily drop out over it, especially in the current admissions environment, but it would absolutely affect my learning. As battie said, UofI did some TBL and not only was it poorly executed, it was actually mentally exhausting for me. TBL only works if it is both executed well, and participants are actually decent participants. Over the 12 years of high school through DVM eduction , I don’t think I’ve ever had a single ‘good’ team project/discussion experience.
Also would be really concerned that specialists aren’t teaching specialties. I am into nutrition for example, and have taken more nutrition CE/courses/workshops than the average vet has probably. I do nutrition stuff for my zoo daily. But am I a nutritionist with that experience? No. Should I teach it? Probably not, because if I did, I’d just be regurgitating textbooks as said above.
Also would be really concerned that specialists aren’t teaching specialties. I am into nutrition for example, and have taken more nutrition CE/courses/workshops than the average vet has probably. I do nutrition stuff for my zoo daily. But am I a nutritionist with that experience? No. Should I teach it? Probably not, because if I did, I’d just be regurgitating textbooks as said above.
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I would never say such a thing.
(For those that haven’t seen my signature and are on mobile, turn your phone sideways)
What does this mean….?
I’m just catching up cause #1st real day as an intern.
General thoughts -
Yes you need to be taught about speciality by specialists. Even ones you think you don’t need to know / don’t care about.
You will certainly do things and procedures you didn’t think you would do in school. My classmate is practicing in rural Texas and is already doing splenectomy, etc because referral isn’t an option.
This isn’t a prestige thing. It’s a “you should be providing an excellent education and being transparent for that much money thing.” I routinely criticize things I experienced at UF even though they provided me with a stellar education because we need to continue to push these institutions to do better by their students / interns / residents.
General thoughts -
Yes you need to be taught about speciality by specialists. Even ones you think you don’t need to know / don’t care about.
You will certainly do things and procedures you didn’t think you would do in school. My classmate is practicing in rural Texas and is already doing splenectomy, etc because referral isn’t an option.
This isn’t a prestige thing. It’s a “you should be providing an excellent education and being transparent for that much money thing.” I routinely criticize things I experienced at UF even though they provided me with a stellar education because we need to continue to push these institutions to do better by their students / interns / residents.
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I completely understand wanting to defend the school you go to due to it being new and people being hesitant about it. I go to UofA and it definitely has its major upsides and it's downsides. We are also TBL based and we use Allele and have since pretty much the beginning. LMUOP came and sat in on our classes before they opened. So they took a lot of their ideas from our curriculum if I remember right. But that being said. I also have concerns about not being taught by a specialist. I could not imaging getting through my classes on cardiology, neurology, opthalmology, etc. without board certified specialists teaching all of that. And the idea of being taught surgery for the first time and not being taught by a surgeon is crazy. Yes, you can learn surgery from a non boarded person, but there are things that surgeons will want you to know that will make you a better doctor and surgeon (even just spay/neuter) that GPs just won't. Same with anesthesia. The depth we got into with our anesthesia professors was/is way more than I have ever heard a GP get into. And that is incredibly important if you are serving as that role in a clinic. You need to be able to know all the whys even if you don't use them on the day to day.
I think in addition to everything a concern with LMUOP is/was LMU TN is skating on thin ice for accreditation so it is concerning as a whole is if OP is overly rushed and will they meet standards and capable of providing appropriate education...not to include the general issue of for-profit schools which do a HUGE disservice to students...the least they could do is provide a solid quality education for future colleagues....
In the end if you ask 10/10 graduated vets if they could've gone to a cheaper school and been able to pay off and be done with their loans or have 400-500k+ hanging over their head for the next 20-30+ years the answer, post graduation, is going to the cheaper school....especially with current changes to student loans and not including any future market over saturation which we are most certainly headed for imo.
In the end if you ask 10/10 graduated vets if they could've gone to a cheaper school and been able to pay off and be done with their loans or have 400-500k+ hanging over their head for the next 20-30+ years the answer, post graduation, is going to the cheaper school....especially with current changes to student loans and not including any future market over saturation which we are most certainly headed for imo.
UofI lost their radiologist after my very first semester of vet school and did not get one back until sometime after I graduated, so I can confirm that it sucks. Our radiology lectures were prerecorded by a radiologist and we had no live interaction with him at all. I recall emailing him questions and never getting a reply, or it was one of those situations that cannot be adequately explained via email (idr). From one year to the next, his lectures were just repeated for my class. I think I’ve said this before, but I’m guessing LMU OP might end up doing the same thing for a lot of the speciality lectures if they can’t get people hired/don’t hire for certain specialties?
UofI graduated at least 3 classes with no real radiology education. I had to learn on the job, which all new vets will be doing to some extent…but I also missed right atrial enlargement, something that a new grad should absolutely be able to see, in my first few weeks as an intern (solo on overnight ER…) because I didn’t know what I was looking for or how to read a radiograph.
Couldn't have said it better myself. You don't know what you don't know.
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Currently in my I know nothing era 😍
i’ve been in the valley of despair for forever now when will it get better 🥲
After I passed my NAVLE I was like well ok it’s up from here!
First day practicing out of school is humbling as well but I’m learning so much
i just feel like i will never know anything to the competency of a practicing vet. i know i just have one year under my belt but my confidence level has always been low and im scared it will never get better.
You will definitely become more confident and be a competent vet!!! Also, in practice you can absolutely look things up. I regularly will ask the other vet at my clinic or vet friends for their opinions and help. You DON’T have to know everything for the rest of your life practicing and simply cannot.
Never be afraid to phone a friend as well!!
supershorty
Don't look so vexed, toots.
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Me at 2 AM texting @Trilt going "hey are you up, can I ask you something" or calling @WildZoo going "help someone brought me an opossum and my drugs aren't touching it, what do"
Me texting @SkiOtter and Sporty about GP life before quitting. Me texting @cdo96 about cases at 2am. Me texting @MixedAnimals77 about random cowboy shenanigans they do to save lives 😍
I was the go-to consult doctor for the newer doc on Monday/Tuesday nights for like two years at my work because I worked the weekend nights prior so I'd always still be up at 2am. 😂
Defs me texting @battie for helps with ecc cases that dont have a referral option *insert crying in rural med*
Totes ask for help always and anytime
Totes ask for help always and anytime
So what yall are saying is I can beg you for help when I start ER overnights 😀
the second midwestern is no longer happening
news.vin.com
Midwestern halts veterinary school on its Illinois campus
It's the fourth proposed US program to stall since 2023, but surge in openings continues
news.vin.com
the second midwestern is no longer happening
Midwestern halts veterinary school on its Illinois campus
It's the fourth proposed US program to stall since 2023, but surge in openings continues
When it's about the money, then suddenly the school isnt so important to society 🤔
I might not be available for overnights since I'm leaving official ER, but you're always welcome to text me! If you want my number, you can DM me
I will definitely take you up on this
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Also don’t forget about resources like the diagnostic lab consult lines for general testing questions and specialties like IM, onco, exotics, etc. Takes time and probably some time on hold since those are done by phone, but it’s their literal jobs to answer people’s questions. I’m happy to answer pathology questions, but it’s also totally acceptable to reach out to whatever pathologist wrote your reports if you have questions. We get questions via email and phone daily. I promise we won’t think your question is silly, we just want to help.
It gets better. Maybe about 4-6 months in you’ll start to feel like maybe, just maybe, you can do this. I can only think of one other event in my life that was as/more terrifying as the first shift of my internship. My internmates were all hanging in there but we were told stories of previous interns throwing up in the bathroom before their first shifts lol.
You starting at my program is now bringing back memories I blocked out, such as standing in front of all the residents, specialty interns, the leaving rotating interns, and my own internmates to round off case transfers from the first overnight ER shift of any intern that year (LUCKY ME!!!) and the criticalist on that day absolutely grilling me into oblivion. I was so intimidated by him (and yes, he is still there and is your intern coordinator now I think!) until I had my CC rotation and got to know him a little better. I had no idea what was going on at all and almost quit before I drove home that morning lol.
Oh, and my very first case, so from that same shift, was a cat that was recently spayed. It vomited in front of the owner and dehisced its entire incision from vomiting (although obviously the incision/closure had some sort of issue…), and guts were just hanging out. The poor owner was so traumatized, was also my second client-owned euthanasia of my career. Man there will be some crazy cases you’ll never forget this year. Those ERs see some weird stuff. I think I saw more zebra cases in my first ER rotation there than I have in the entire 7 years of my career. I really do miss the insanity, share your crazy stories when you get them please!!
On a more relevant note, there re a few vet groups on FB that people use for unofficial phone a friend ‘consults,’ radiograph opinions, etc. response time varies. It can also be helpful.
Yes please talk to us! We are alone with our microscopes most of the time lol. I actually love it when a rDVM calls me and wants to know more, so I can fully nerd out on them. Oh, you want to know more HERE IS MORE, MORE THAN YOU EVER WANTED TO KNOW
supershorty
Don't look so vexed, toots.
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The most excitation I've ever heard in a conversation with a pathologist is when I had a cat necropsy last year that came back with polyarteritis nodosa throughout the GI tract, kidneys, etc.
I, as a budding young surgeon, had to google it before I even called them because I read the report and was like "those sure do be mediciney words"
The amount of times I've thought to myself 'Should I already know what this is...?' lol.I, as a budding young surgeon, had to google it before I even called them because I read the report and was like "those sure do be mediciney words"
Also specific to pathology, it boggles my mind that you lot can just look at a snapshot of tissue and readily diagnose something random. Idk how often you have to hunt through textbooks but still.
supershorty
Don't look so vexed, toots.
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A lot of things I can diagnose in under 20 seconds - its writing the report that takes so long, grading things, doing the comment section etc. It's visual pattern recognition and your brain becomes very trained to it.
However on the other end of the spectrum, there are absolutely cases where I have to crack the books and it can take an hour and several consults. I'd say in an good week it is 60% easy peasy, 30% okay I'm pretty sure but I need to double check a few things, and 10% wtf is this I need to show someone.
We consult with each other all the time. This was last week when I was on duty with on of my path besties. She was on necropsy and I was on biopsy and it was a bad week for both of us. By the end of it we were just texting each other HELP ME and memes and emojis 🤣
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This is a lot like me and my radiology friends' texts too lol. The really awesome, cool cases are always bittersweet because yeah! They're super cool! ...But then you have to write the report haha
Yeah, I'd say I usually 'phone a friend' on 2-3 cases per day and look at a similar number for other friends. Usually I'm just wanting confirmation that it's weird and that my differentials are reasonable, sometimes asking for phrasing assistance. We also have dedicated consult lines and Teams groups where you can ask another pathologist (other than your friends) or group of pathologists for an additional opinion. Most cases are relatively simple and easy pays the same rate as hard so I love the easy ones, but there's usually just enough hard and weird ones to keep things interesting and make you think. I also usually send and get maybe one or two cases sent to my resident mate group chat too, when we want an opinion from people outside my lab system or want to know if they know of another place that offers certain testing.
We are supposed to do our cases based upon time due, and I do pay attention to that, but I usually try to do ones I think will be harder first...I start my day with any bone marrows, then fluids, then CBC reviews, then 1-2d TAT cases that are more likely to be internal organs, and end the day with the standard cases that have a 5-7d TAT and are usually the easy skin lesions. That way my brain is fresh for the harder test codes and I can cruise through the last ones that tend to be easier in the afternoon. Difficult ones still pop up intermittently all day though.
We are supposed to do our cases based upon time due, and I do pay attention to that, but I usually try to do ones I think will be harder first...I start my day with any bone marrows, then fluids, then CBC reviews, then 1-2d TAT cases that are more likely to be internal organs, and end the day with the standard cases that have a 5-7d TAT and are usually the easy skin lesions. That way my brain is fresh for the harder test codes and I can cruise through the last ones that tend to be easier in the afternoon. Difficult ones still pop up intermittently all day though.
Rowan’s vet school can ‘keep the lights on’ under tentative state budget deal, and other South Jersey program updates
Gotta love a state that supports its college just enough to “keep the lights on” at its relatively new school. Curious how much this will affect tuition in future years…
Gotta love a state that supports its college just enough to “keep the lights on” at its relatively new school. Curious how much this will affect tuition in future years…
Ah yes, another example of politicians just plowing ahead despite overwhelming dissent and opposition from the people who live here and work here (USA/Colorado) every day.
at this point, the exam is just gonna be a TBD situation because nobody wants to actually make it and no veterinarians want to help write the questions.
NJ veterinary school begins second year beset by challenges
Funding shortfall and employment lawsuits hit Rowan University program
Funding shortfall and employment lawsuits hit Rowan University program
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reddeadrobin
Ex-Scream Queen Second Son, First Failure
The accusations in those lawsuits are WILD
miriam1216
Full Member
As someone who has been through something VERY similar to the allegations in these lawsuits… I’m seriously reconsidering my application this cycle.
Big yikes. Fellow Illini will recognize a familiar last name in the legal paperwork....
Can't say I blame you. It sounds like they need to get rid of one person in particular
miriam1216
Full Member
Definitely, but this sort of discrimination tends to be institutional and structural. One person couldn’t do what they did and get away with it if the institution wasn’t supporting their actions.
I really want to get into vet school, but the idea of going through this again, especially as someone who will be in even less of a position of power as these folks/compared to the last time I did, turns my stomach.
I’m not saying it’s okay in any way, but this is absolutely not an issue limited to one school. A lot of this type of thing is generally hidden from students and happens behind the scenes…I know I’m way more aware of things like this now that I have friends who work in academia and tell me the stories than I ever was as a student.
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