DISCUSS: News on Future veterinary schools

[KCgophervet]

So we had an entire guest lecture on financing and how to tackle/address the loans after graduation. It basically boiled down to: Don't buy a house, don't buy a new car, dump as much money as possible on the loans as quickly as you possibly can.

Which, seems like great advice, but veterinary graduates are adults often starting life. They want to settle into their own lives. They want to have a home to call their own. They don't want to drive their clunker for another 20 years. Some want to start families. Some want to travel. Some want to enjoy more than the barebone basics of life. There was no balance to the financial advice. It was an all or nothing view.

I didn't listen to it. I bought a house fairly soon after graduation and I am SO glad I did, had I listened to their advice I would have 2.5=3x the interest rate on a home loan and I likely would not have been able to afford purchasing a house. I purchased a car immediately after graduation as well, was my graduation present to myself. I have since paid that car off. I actually recently traded that car in and got another new car, wanted to upgrade to an SUV.

Are classes on finances a good idea? Yeah, if they are balanced, but I find anyone I have talked to had a similar financial discussion I received. Don't do anything, don't buy anything, don't live life, just pay loans and that isn't feasible advice. Sure, if you do that you will be set up well in the next 10-15 years, provided you don't burn yourself out and hurt your entire soul in the process.

Agreed with all the comments on earlier finance education. This post just reminded me of the finance guy who came to talk to our vet school class who showed us graphs about how we needed to start investing in our retirement accounts at 18 and if you waited until you were 30 you were SOL... to a class who's average age at graduation was going to be 30... thanks dude, super helpful showing us how far behind we were by pursuing higher education!

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[WhtsThFrequency]

Agreed with all the comments on earlier finance education. This post just reminded me of the finance guy who came to talk to our vet school class who showed us graphs about how we needed to start investing in our retirement accounts at 18 and if you waited until you were 30 you were SOL... to a class who's average age at graduation was going to be 30... thanks dude, super helpful showing us how far behind we were by pursuing higher education!

lol. I think we had the same guy 🤣🤣

 

[DVMDream]

lol. I think we had the same guy 🤣🤣

I think we all had the same person. Lol
He must be available to the vet school on a special discount rate.

 

[SkiOtter]

Did you all have Tony from VIN? 😂 I’m pretty sure that’s who came to UIUC

 

[battie]

Did you all have Tony from VIN? 😂 I’m pretty sure that’s who came to UIUC

Tony Bartels doesn't recommend this route though for the most part. He generally recommends people pay as low as possible on their loans and save for forgiveness cause then they effectively make their interest rate 2-4% since they ultimately pay less for their loans than they own.

I submitted my financials to his section of VIN asking if I should put my extra paychecks and taxes towards loans, or if I can justify my new deck. He said to switch plans and buy the deck 🤣

 

[JaynaAli]

Did you all have Tony from VIN? 😂 I’m pretty sure that’s who came to UIUC

We had Mark Opperman at my school, I’m pretty sure. It was two days the week between third year and clinics…a prime time when students just love to learn, lol.

 

[SkiOtter]

Tony Bartels doesn't recommend this route though for the most part. He generally recommends people pay as low as possible on their loans and save for forgiveness cause then they effectively make their interest rate 2-4% since they ultimately pay less for their loans than they own.

I submitted my financials to his section of VIN asking if I should put my extra paychecks and taxes towards loans, or if I can justify my new deck. He said to switch plans and buy the deck 🤣

We must’ve had multiple people come then because I know I remember hearing someone say that we needed to invest at 18 and we were already late.

Wait maybe that was firkins who taught the business classes????? I know he said he started late 🤔

 

[battie]

We must’ve had multiple people come then because I know I remember hearing someone say that we needed to invest at 18 and we were already late.

Wait maybe that was firkins who taught the business classes????? I know he said he started late 🤔

I didn't take the business classes, so that might have been it.

 

[supershorty]

We had Mark Opperman at my school, I’m pretty sure. It was two days the week between third year and clinics…a prime time when students just love to learn, lol.

Those were 8 hours of my life that I will never get back.

 

[supershorty]

Those were 8 hours of my life that I will never get back.

Wait. No. It was 16 hours.
Even worse.

 

[JaynaAli]

Interesting JAVMA article titled “An imminent need for veterinary medical educators: are we facing a crisis?”. There’s not any real solutions there and a lot of what they talk about are things we’ve brought up here, but interesting to see it formally in JAVMA.

An imminent need for veterinary medical educators: are we facing a crisis?

Abstract A potential emerging shortage of veterinary medical educators requires the profession to acknowledge and understand the factors leading to this outcome. Expanding class sizes within existing schools and colleges of veterinary medicine and the expected expansion of new programs seeking...

avmajournals.avma.org

 

[pinkpuppy9]

This is a huge factor for me. I didn't know what I didn't know, right, so when I inherited a family member's life insurance policy, I just let it sit. I should have done a lot more with it in hindsight. I have a friend who is not willing to do any sort of stock market thing like an index fund cause it scares him. But for most people, the stock market would be a great supplement for retirement.

And completely agree with the Dave Ramsey thing. And the only debt I have is student loans and the house. I do follow the snowball method for my loans where I try to focus mostly on the highest interest. We try really hard not to take on more debt (I'm going to be willing to for a new deck in the fall, though). But that's not realistic any longer for the average American.

Yeah...investments and stocks can be terrifying but also really rewarding. I'm not going to pretend like I'm well educated on it (my husband is very into it), but we took some profit from the sale of our FL house and put it into crypto (pseudo-investment?) and it's doing very well...might be enough to significantly help us get into our next house if we can time our withdraw right before it cycles down again. So far, it's been working for us. Real estate turned out to be a big investment for us too, but only because we were lucky with the timing in the market. Enough to pay off the rest of my loans, which made the transition from ER to zoo much less financially shocking.

Side comment, it is tough when only one partner in a relationship has a decent 401k going (I'm guessing a lot of us are in this position?). It's really hitting me lately how behind I am compared to someone who started working a salaried job right out of undergrad.

Also, the 'not taking on any more debt is unrealistic for the average American' is pretty spot on right now. People in my area are draining their 401k's to make ends meet right now and we are starting to see businesses close and more foreclosures pop up. Not a great time to be trying to establish oneself.

That sounds horrendous. That's one person's perspective, and it might work for the odd student who can live with their parents or have dual incomes. My husband is very budget conscious and he often watches videos on FIRE. Some of the people in the videos are able to successfully live off of one salary entirely and dump the second salary into loans, but that assumes you have two incomes to do so. Not everyone coming out of veterinary school, actually I would say very few people, is in that position.

I think the same person came and spoke with my class - honestly was a waste of time. You are right though. Having dual incomes was the only way I was able to pay off as much loan as I did in such a short time period. That, and working myself to the bone with extra ER shifts. I wish I kept more of it in savings, in hindsight.

 

[battie]

Side comment, it is tough when only one partner in a relationship has a decent 401k going (I'm guessing a lot of us are in this position?). It's really hitting me lately how behind I am compared to someone who started working a salaried job right out of undergrad.

Long time, no see! Hope you're doing well; glad to hear you officially made it to the zoo life <3

I'm in the opposite situation, unfortunately. While I started my retirement savings much later than my husband, at this point I make so much more than he does, my retirement has already caught up/surpassed his I believe. Goal is to see where I'm at with my 2 year anniversary with my company and bump up my retirement savings percent. Depends also on how our financial planning meeting goes later this year.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Long time, no see! Hope you're doing well; glad to hear you officially made it to the zoo life <3

I'm in the opposite situation, unfortunately. While I started my retirement savings much later than my husband, at this point I make so much more than he does, my retirement has already caught up/surpassed his I believe. Goal is to see where I'm at with my 2 year anniversary with my company and bump up my retirement savings percent. Depends also on how our financial planning meeting goes later this year.

I've been lurking around every so often, lol. I actually have been getting the occasional DM about zoo stuff, so I try to log in and reply every few weeks!

I bumped up my 401k contribution to 10% at the start of my new job to try and make up for lost time. I'm fortunate that I can afford to do that, but it still hurts the pocket upfront. On top of desperately saving for a house so we can get out of this apartment...the housing market is crazy right now for both renting and buying. Our rent is $2600 for a 2 bed/2 bath, anything less was in a terrible area (which, you know where I work, so you can probably imagine...). No way can we afford $50k over asking in cash for a house that is already at the top of our budget and also needs $50k+ in repairs/updates. Ugh. Should have stayed in the Florida house, but who was to know? Selling it paid off my loans, so there's that I guess.

Also, I know I'm super late to this thread and a lot of what I'm going to say had been said, but the new schools thing is crazy to me. We don't have a shortage of veterinarians. We have a huge drop in vets in large animal/equine medicine and vets that are willing to work in rural areas. Pair that with the general movement towards younger vets demanding a decent quality of life (which I am a part of, lol), and you've got people mistakenly thinking there are not enough vets simply because they won't apply to the opening for six 12's, on-call, holiday coverage, all for under 100k in an area no one wants to live in. I cannot believe the vets/clinic managers/etc that are b*tching about younger vets 'not wanting to work' on social media, only to see that this is the job they are trying to fill. That's not even talking about pet owners. Gone are the days of Dr. Bob, who gave you his home phone number and missed Christmas dinner with his family to euthanize the dog that's been sick for months for free. In my semi-rural hometown, the local 'cheap vet' actually suddenly died a year or two back and his clients are still posting and complaining in the town Facebook group about how the young vets just want their money, so they are forced to let their sick pets suffer because Dr. ___ died. Don't get me started on all of the 'Please buy my clinic, I want to retire but none of the youngin's want to work!' social media blasts.

I've also been seeing Ross (I think?) advertise that the GRE is no longer a requirement to apply. So on top of more schools, requirements are being relaxed. Not that a good GRE score has anything to do with being a decent vet, but still. It's a slippery slope imo. What's next, fewer high level science courses? No experience hours necessary? Didn't one school already drop their 'recommended' hours from 200 to 40 or something in the last few years?

We had one vet student that graduated but didn't pass the NAVLE so I can only imagine how many students may graduate unprepared in that regard as well. 😕

Just wanted to throw in that in my 5 years out, the number of students that I cross paths with that haven't passed the NAVLE (at least on their first try) seems to be higher each year. Had a few new grads work as techs at my ER, as they failed the NAVLE. Showed up to start their rotating internships, only to find out a week or two in that they failed the spring NAVLE but had already moved across the country and whatnot.

Does anyone know if the pass rates are generally decreasing?

 

[thenontraveler]

I've been lurking around every so often, lol. I actually have been getting the occasional DM about zoo stuff, so I try to log in and reply every few weeks!

I bumped up my 401k contribution to 10% at the start of my new job to try and make up for lost time. I'm fortunate that I can afford to do that, but it still hurts the pocket upfront. On top of desperately saving for a house so we can get out of this apartment...the housing market is crazy right now for both renting and buying. Our rent is $2600 for a 2 bed/2 bath, anything less was in a terrible area (which, you know where I work, so you can probably imagine...). No way can we afford $50k over asking in cash for a house that is already at the top of our budget and also needs $50k+ in repairs/updates. Ugh. Should have stayed in the Florida house, but who was to know? Selling it paid off my loans, so there's that I guess.

Also, I know I'm super late to this thread and a lot of what I'm going to say had been said, but the new schools thing is crazy to me. We don't have a shortage of veterinarians. We have a huge drop in vets in large animal/equine medicine and vets that are willing to work in rural areas. Pair that with the general movement towards younger vets demanding a decent quality of life (which I am a part of, lol), and you've got people mistakenly thinking there are not enough vets simply because they won't apply to the opening for six 12's, on-call, holiday coverage, all for under 100k in an area no one wants to live in. I cannot believe the vets/clinic managers/etc that are b*tching about younger vets 'not wanting to work' on social media, only to see that this is the job they are trying to fill. That's not even talking about pet owners. Gone are the days of Dr. Bob, who gave you his home phone number and missed Christmas dinner with his family to euthanize the dog that's been sick for months for free. In my semi-rural hometown, the local 'cheap vet' actually suddenly died a year or two back and his clients are still posting and complaining in the town Facebook group about how the young vets just want their money, so they are forced to let their sick pets suffer because Dr. ___ died. Don't get me started on all of the 'Please buy my clinic, I want to retire but none of the youngin's want to work!' social media blasts.

I've also been seeing Ross (I think?) advertise that the GRE is no longer a requirement to apply. So on top of more schools, requirements are being relaxed. Not that a good GRE score has anything to do with being a decent vet, but still. It's a slippery slope imo. What's next, fewer high level science courses? No experience hours necessary? Didn't one school already drop their 'recommended' hours from 200 to 40 or something in the last few years?


Just wanted to throw in that in my 5 years out, the number of students that I cross paths with that haven't passed the NAVLE (at least on their first try) seems to be higher each year. Had a few new grads work as techs at my ER, as they failed the NAVLE. Showed up to start their rotating internships, only to find out a week or two in that they failed the spring NAVLE but had already moved across the country and whatnot.

Does anyone know if the pass rates are generally decreasing?

In response to changing requirements, I have actually seen where schools are dropping GRE but requiring more high level science courses. A lot of schools are adding Biochem, a full year of physics and more credits required in the upper sciences (you get to pick for some) than the first round I applied. I think requiring more specialty classes will definitely weed out the students in the last several years who applied Because the GRE was no longer required at most schools, so it was easier to mass apply and not do much extra work. I can already see multiple schools that I was able to apply to since I had taken biochem, but my friend who didn't could not. If schools do start tailoring their classes to fit their exact programs more, it might be difficult for oos students to apply and will possibly decrease the amount of students applying overall for the schools we currently have? Not sure on that, but I could see it happening.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

In response to changing requirements, I have actually seen where schools are dropping GRE but requiring more high level science courses. A lot of schools are adding Biochem, a full year of physics and more credits required in the upper sciences (you get to pick for some) than the first round I applied. I think requiring more specialty classes will definitely weed out the students in the last several years who applied Because the GRE was no longer required at most schools, so it was easier to mass apply and not do much extra work. I can already see multiple schools that I was able to apply to since I had taken biochem, but my friend who didn't could not. If schools do start tailoring their classes to fit their exact programs more, it might be difficult for oos students to apply and will possibly decrease the amount of students applying overall for the schools we currently have? Not sure on that, but I could see it happening.

Hmmm..I remember every school I applied to requiring biochem and a full year of physics. The one off was cell biology, which only Michigan State required at the time. Granted, this was back in 2014-2015, so a lot of things could have changed multiple times in that 10 years and my memory is trying to block out a lot of that period of my life...

 

[JaynaAli]

Does anyone know if the pass rates are generally decreasing?

Yes, they have been, at least since 2018ish. Obviously rates per school will vary quite a bit, but I think the average pass rate for all takers has decreased from 95% down to 86% in the past five testing cycles. Hard to pinpoint exactly why but mostly seems to coincide with COVID, but yet it’s continued to worsen with subsequent years even though students are back to normal. Is it because of lessening requirements? New schools? Multiple factors seems likely to me but your observations are correct.

Source: Number of NAVLE test takers increase as overall scores decrease

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Yes, they have been, at least since 2018ish. Obviously rates per school will vary quite a bit, but I think the average pass rate for all takers has decreased from 95% down to 86% in the past five testing cycles. Hard to pinpoint exactly why but mostly seems to coincide with COVID, but yet it’s continued to worsen with subsequent years even though students are back to normal. Is it because of lessening requirements? New schools? Multiple factors seems likely to me but your observations are correct.

Source: Number of NAVLE test takers increase as overall scores decrease

Thanks, and yikes. That's a substantial drop in a short period of time. The limit on total number of attempts is going to be such a huge problem for a few people. I think we've all heard stories circulate every few years of someone needing 5+ tries...how true those stories are, though? Who knows. I did have a would-be intern pass after her 4th try, and the last would-be intern that I was keeping in touch with still had not passed after his 3rd or 4th attempt (haven't heard from this spring's test, though).

If you reach your test taking limit without passing when the majority pass on the first try, and then the second, I don't know what to tell ya. But also, I can't fathom going through vet school only to never actually be a vet at the end of it, especially if you had been studying diligently for each attempt and just fell short each time. That's a lot of debt for nothing, and I'd have big concerns for that person's welfare.

 

[thenontraveler]

Hmmm..I remember every school I applied to requiring biochem and a full year of physics. The one off was cell biology, which only Michigan State required at the time. Granted, this was back in 2014-2015, so a lot of things could have changed multiple times in that 10 years and my memory is trying to block out a lot of that period of my life...

I know a lot require 1 term of Biochem, but now they are moving to a full year. And added upper division classes do make it harder to meet a lot of schools criteria if you don't plan really well.
And they could have reduced things for COVID, and are just ramping up again? I am unsure.

 

[battie]

Don't get me started on all of the 'Please buy my clinic, I want to retire but none of the youngin's want to work!' social media blasts.

There's a group on VIN I think of as the Oldies who make the same complaint of 3 day work weeks (cause three twelves are always a blast) and no on call so not everyone is sharing the load.

Well, if you don't want on call, don't have it or make it worthwhile to be woken up at 3am for diarrhea. Those are the options.

it might be difficult for oos students to apply and will possibly decrease the amount of students applying overall for the schools we currently have?

I would guarantee this is the reason. Admissions is labor intensive, so limiting the applicants does help more than the application fees do at a certain point. Add in the folks who apply and have no business doing so cause "it can't hurt to try", and I really don't envy these admissions departments.

If you reach your test taking limit without passing when the majority pass on the first try, and then the second, I don't know what to tell ya.

Agreed here. There's a certain point where it's not the test. And I know a ton of people who didn't pass on the first try and a few on the second. But if someone cannot pass by the 5th try, the deficiency is with the test taker in some way. It's not a ding on them as a person. But to fall that far out of the average no longer falls on how bad of a test the NAVLE is.

But also, I can't fathom going through vet school only to never actually be a vet at the end of it, especially if you had been studying diligently for each attempt and just fell short each time

There are alternatives such as the USDA. But that's not what most people want to do with their degree

 

[SV88]

In response to changing requirements, I have actually seen where schools are dropping GRE but requiring more high level science courses. A lot of schools are adding Biochem, a full year of physics and more credits required in the upper sciences (you get to pick for some) than the first round I applied. I think requiring more specialty classes will definitely weed out the students in the last several years who applied Because the GRE was no longer required at most schools, so it was easier to mass apply and not do much extra work. I can already see multiple schools that I was able to apply to since I had taken biochem, but my friend who didn't could not. If schools do start tailoring their classes to fit their exact programs more, it might be difficult for oos students to apply and will possibly decrease the amount of students applying overall for the schools we currently have? Not sure on that, but I could see it happening.

Actually, my IS (TAMU) is dropping physics 2 after this year. So if I apply this summer as planned, I'll have to take physics 1 & 2. If i don't apply this year and apply next year only to TAMU it's just physics 1 that I need. I am not planning on doing that, unless I really hate physics 1, as most other schools require both 1 & 2.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

Well, if you don't want on call, don't have it or make it worthwhile to be woken up at 3am for diarrhea. Those are the options.

This. Nothing is worth waking me up at 3am for diarrhea. Short of colic, dystocia, GDV, and hbc there are few true wake me up at 3am emergencies. Also if you're checking your horse at 3am #why. However, I am a grumpy person without my sleep and I can be down right mean if I'm woken up mid sleep so it's best for everyone that I don't do Er past my bed time.

 

[battie]

Also if you're checking your horse at 3am #why.

90% of the cases I see at 3am on overnights fall in two categories: things that should have been seen way way way sooner and now have jumped over the edge towards death, or things that annoy the owners. The other 10% are actual true emergencies where the client happened to wake up at the right time.

We recently had production discussions with our med directors, and my home hospital is the least lucrative of our three. The med director and I commiserated that dead things, even DOAs, actually pay better than the majority of living things on overnights. Cause half the time, the living things come in and only pay the exam fee (if they even pay that), whereas the the dead things have cremation and all that jazz.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

90% of the cases I see at 3am on overnights fall in two categories: things that should have been seen way way way sooner and now have jumped over the edge towards death, or things that annoy the owners. The other 10% are actual true emergencies where the client happened to wake up at the right time.

When I was in Tampa, I once had a tourist bring their dog in to me at 2am for recheck bloodwork (dog was started on Lasix, needed the two-week kidney value recheck). The bloodwork was 'due' that day with their pDVM across the country, but obviously they were travelling, so ER it was! They did also ask me to lop off one of the dog's skin tags while they were there, lol.

added upper division classes do make it harder to meet a lot of schools criteria if you don't plan really well.

I can definitely see the challenge if you decided to apply to vet school later in the game or were not getting a science-based degree, but outside of that, it is honestly not hard to meet the requirements for most schools as they are all nearly the same. It shouldn't be terribly difficult for a student to check out a few schools and make sure that if a specific course is required, they take it as an elective if it's not already part of their degree. I don't see additional upper level courses being a real hurdle at all, especially since very few people apply to vet school completely on a whim.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Yes, they have been, at least since 2018ish. Obviously rates per school will vary quite a bit, but I think the average pass rate for all takers has decreased from 95% down to 86% in the past five testing cycles. Hard to pinpoint exactly why but mostly seems to coincide with COVID, but yet it’s continued to worsen with subsequent years even though students are back to normal. Is it because of lessening requirements? New schools? Multiple factors seems likely to me but your observations are correct.

Source: Number of NAVLE test takers increase as overall scores decrease

I wouldn't be surprised if one of the big contributors is also linked to the faculty recruitment and retention problem. Because 1) high quality educators who understand how to cultivate effective learning environments, or those who would be if they chose that route, are not being attracted to academia, 2) older individuals in the academic sphere are not retiring, which is not a problem just by itself....however they also tend to simultaneously not update either their teaching methods or content, 3) veterinary medicine as a whole struggling to move past the passive lecture model, which becomes less and less effective the more complex and extensive the field gets, and we end up "teaching" (rather, distributing) an ever-increasing volume of facts rather instead of focusing on helping students develop critical thinking abilities and true diagnostic frameworks in their minds.

 

[VeggieTrex]

Regarding the volume of knowledge and effectively teaching with an ever expanding base, I keep coming back to one thought.

Math, at one point, stopped at Calculus. That was all of math. But then we got good at calculus and you can teach a reasonably bright high schooler Calc. Biology once stopped at cells, but now middle schoolers can name different organelles and have a basic understanding of what they do.

Teaching methods for vet med (or anything for that matter) from 20 years ago aren't going to work. High speed internet was still incredibly uncommon and having a computer in your pocket was still sci-fi. 10 years ago I still knew people moving to smart phones from flip phones. Now you can find nearly anything you want to with a handful of button taps. Effective use of those tools, the ability to quickly understand the quality of the information, synthesize, and apply that is significantly more important than memorizing a set of facts and rigidly applying them. Is there a place for know facts? Of course, but it can't be the be all end all of knowledge.

To me, it's like understanding the use of the table of contents vs the index. You get to the same place, but one is much faster.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

Regarding the volume of knowledge and effectively teaching with an ever expanding base, I keep coming back to one thought. ...

(Cough) Card catalog (Cough)

 

[battie]

Teaching those who teach how to teach is definitely a barrier, I think. They tried to do flipped classroom for a single class, which is impossible to do when all your other classes are traditional. It just didn't work. So consistency is key.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

Teaching methods for vet med (or anything for that matter) from 20 years ago aren't going to work. High speed internet was still incredibly uncommon and having a computer in your pocket was still sci-fi. 10 years ago I still knew people moving to smart phones from flip phones. Now you can find nearly anything you want to with a handful of button taps. Effective use of those tools, the ability to quickly understand the quality of the information, synthesize, and apply that is significantly more important than memorizing a set of facts and rigidly applying them. Is there a place for know facts? Of course, but it can't be the be all end all of knowledge.

To me, it's like understanding the use of the table of contents vs the index. You get to the same place, but one is much faster.

EXACTLY. The classroom should not be limited to delivering plain facts when facts can honestly be found on their own with a variety of curated resources. Class time and medical/veterinary school in general should be focused on APPLYING facts in the correct way and learning how to integrate them into real life situations, i.e. flipped classroom type model, case based models, etc.

Teaching those who teach how to teach is definitely a barrier, I think. They tried to do flipped classroom for a single class, which is impossible to do when all your other classes are traditional. It just didn't work. So consistency is key.

Both are huge barriers. Some people are naturally good at teaching, and some people need coaching. The problem is, there is limited support for those who want and need said coaching.

Moving to application based sessions, which are farrrrrr superior IMO, is a big sticking point. At least at my (vet) institution, everyone HATED flipped classroom, and I don't think the sentiment has improved that much. It's almost a cultural thing, or maybe it's just due to habit - when you are used to just being talked at and fed information passively, being taken away from that model is super jarring. I fault veterinary medical education in general for being kind of behind on this at a lot of places.

To compare, med students are lucky as hell and have an entire industry behind their board prep with seemingly limitless highly vetted (no pun intended) resources with which to learn the "facts"...we do almost entirely "flipped" sessions with them, and its pretty easy BECAUSE they have these resources and they are using them anyway from Day 1. That luxury is not really there in vet med. We don't have a veterinary version of high quality third-party video and written resources like Boards and Beyond, or First Aid, or Pathoma (to my knowledge - I think all we have is a set the NAVLE itself puts out and then question banks like Zuku and VetPrep even today). So asking vet students to do so much independent learning is much harder because they don't have an abundance of easy-to-access material that they almost all use. We'd be asking them to pore over random textbooks, which sure we can do it, but its far more tedious and compliance is going to be blah.

That being said, I think sometimes the hate of the flipped model is a bit much. I still remember our clinical pathology professor flipping the classroom way back in 2009 and saying read this small chapter in whatever, and then we are doing cases in small groups in class....everyone lost their minds. HOW CAN WE LEARN IT IF YOU HAVEN'T TAUGHT IT FIRST....like dude, you can read can't you? Read the freaking chapter. You can read it and at least get the basics faster than somebody standing up on a podium blathering about it for 60 min. Learn the facts, then come to class and apply the facts.

 

[WhtsThFrequency]

(Cough) Card catalog (Cough)

Just as I was starting to think I was still hip and could hang with my fellow kids, and you remind me of this.

 

[SV88]

That being said, I think sometimes the hate of the flipped model is a bit much. I still remember our clinical pathology professor flipping the classroom way back in 2009 and saying read this small chapter in whatever, and then we are doing cases in small groups in class....everyone lost their minds. HOW CAN WE LEARN IT IF YOU HAVEN'T TAUGHT IT FIRST....like dude, you can read can't you? Read the freaking chapter. You can read it and at least get the basics faster than somebody standing up on a podium blathering about it for 60 min. Learn the facts, then come to class and apply the facts.

I'm finding that struggle in my organic chemistry class right now. I actually love how this professor has put her online course together, instead of "lectures" she does videos 40m - 1 hour of her solving problems related to the chapter. She explains her process and shows why answers are correct vs incorrect. I'd MUCH rather have this than just a lecture and "go solve your own questions." Someone in the orgo Group Me was complaining there were no lectures first. With the online text book, her power point notes, the half dozen handouts she provides for each chapter, and the checkpoint question video solutions why would you want a lecture???

 

[pinkpuppy9]

Teaching those who teach how to teach is definitely a barrier, I think. They tried to do flipped classroom for a single class, which is impossible to do when all your other classes are traditional. It just didn't work. So consistency is key.

Are you thinking of my class? We did this, and I wasn't sure if they continued it. I think c/o 2019 was the class for experiments....the flipped classroom stuff was brutal. Not in the sense that it was technically hard, but that we had no direction and the clinicians didn't know what they were doing either. By the end of the year, less than half the class was showing up for those classes.

 

[battie]

Are you thinking of my class? We did this, and I wasn't sure if they continued it. I think c/o 2019 was the class for experiments....the flipped classroom stuff was brutal. Not in the sense that it was technically hard, but that we had no direction and the clinicians didn't know what they were doing either. By the end of the year, less than half the class was showing up for those classes.

They continued with our class and 2020. I remember 3rd year in particular, the therio professor would have excessive amounts of out of class material. Too much for the flipped classroom model. And again, just wasn't good at it.

 

[honeypot999]

SAVMA just passed that weekly duty hours for clinical rotations shouldn’t exceed 60 hours. Don’t love the last line where we have to alert the supervisors, because I feel like we’ll be told to suck it up.

 

[supershorty]

Don’t love the last line where we have to alert the supervisors, because I feel like we’ll be told to suck it up.

This is the problem that I've always had with the SAVMA duty guidelines. Putting the onus on the student, while by far the most practical, automatically sets them up to not say anything about it. The power imbalance is too great.

Though, seeing it from the other side now as a clinician, I already have so many things to keep track of that also keeping track of each student's hours would be really, really difficult for me.

 

[JaynaAli]

My problem with the SAVMA duty hours recommendations is that until there is a top-down redistribution of duties and/or more appropriate support staff, this just pushes even more work onto the house officers who already have significantly more duties to manage than the average student. Do the students deserve these changes? Absolutely. But the wellbeing of house officers also needs consideration too. Ideally faculty would step in and assist the house officers more, but we all know that doesn’t usually happen and they do have a zillion duties of their own (hence why I say it needs a top down reevaluation not just recommendations for the bottom rung of the ladder and also more support staff).

 

[thenontraveler]

My problem with the SAVMA duty hours recommendations is that until there is a top-down redistribution of duties and/or more appropriate support staff, this just pushes even more work onto the house officers who already have significantly more duties to manage than the average student. Do the students deserve these changes? Absolutely. But the wellbeing of house officers also needs consideration too. Ideally faculty would step in and assist the house officers more, but we all know that doesn’t usually happen and they do have a zillion duties of their own (hence why I say it needs a top down reevaluation not just recommendations for the bottom rung of the ladder and also more support staff).

Sorry if this should be known already but, what is a house officer?

 

[supershorty]

Sorry if this should be known already but, what is a house officer?

Interns and residents.

 

[thenontraveler]

Interns and residents.

Thank you!

 

[battie]

These SAVMA guidelines also do not need to be adopted by the schools. They are optional. And so without the top-down adoption of a revised system, most schools will not implement them in full. It was only a few years ago the hours cap was 80.

 

[MixedAnimals77]

Just echoing Bats. In theory the guidelines are great but they are exactly that and there's nothing binding them or consequences or anything really attached to them. That's what a ton of students dont know/recognize. Sure students can revolt because savma guidelines say so but at the end if the day they are only that-guidelines but the schools are going to do what they're going to do. It does need a top down evaluation with the main issue being support staff because clinicians and house officers already have 7 billion things to do.

 

[battie]

main issue being support staff

Another point towards opening all these new schools: there aren't enough support staff now, let alone when we start increasing graduates by 50%+

 

[SV88]

Another point towards opening all these new schools: there aren't enough support staff now, let alone when we start increasing graduates by 50%+

Been saying that for years... I felt really guilty for a long time that I wanted to pursue a DVM and specialization. I even had a post on here where it was mentioned in the interest of protecting and encouraging support staff to stay and grow which unfortunately did not have a warm welcome.

I'm a good technician, I love my job. I thought a cardiology VTS would be enough for me, and it was definitely a challenging road, but I wanted more and made the call last year. So many of my colleagues are leaving, it's really disappointing. When I worked at a teaching hospital there was so much of an emphasis on training the students by the technicians, especially on the anesthesia rotation, so what are they gonna do when we have too many students and not enough faculty/technicians/assistants/support staff for them? How are they going to graduate into practice with not enough RVTs or experienced staff to aid them in doing their actual jobs (run anesthesia so they can do a spay or dental?) We've gotta stop focusing so much on the DVMs and look at the field as a whole and what a DVM needs around them to be successful/have a good work-life balance.

 

[battie]

The overwhelming flip flop of priorities is wild. Where we should ideally have a tech/assistant/doc ratio of 1:1:1 at a minimum, we're keep going farther and farther away from that.

So many of my colleagues are leaving, it's really disappointing

We've lost several very long term folks due to overall burn out between our reduced staff and real life struggles that just culminated into them needing to back away from the industry. It's a compounding problem where the interest is going come due here in 5-10 years.

not enough RVTs

Part of what prevents people getting credentials I think is the cost of education. While I feel like the cost to become a vet is ridiculous, I think the cost of the main local tech program for an associates degree is outrageous. It's nearly as much as my bachelor's degree (36k vs 40k, literally). And while I think the value technicians bring to the profession is worth more than that, the cost isn't financially a good ROI in any way. As far as I am aware, this is a nationally known program.

Meanwhile our local community college VT program is half the cost. But many choose the name college for the perceived prestige, much like many other people in many other industries.

At least I can pay my student loans. I have many techs who went there who can not

too many students and not enough faculty/technicians/assistants/support staff for them?

Hence why so many schools arent building hospitals. Saves a ton of money in overhead, including labor.

 

[SV88]

The overwhelming flip flop of priorities is wild. Where we should ideally have a tech/assistant/doc ratio of 1:1:1 at a minimum, we're keep going farther and farther away from that.

We've lost several very long term folks due to overall burn out between our reduced staff and real life struggles that just culminated into them needing to back away from the industry. It's a compounding problem where the interest is going come due here in 5-10 years.

Part of what prevents people getting credentials I think is the cost of education. While I feel like the cost to become a vet is ridiculous, I think the cost of the main local tech program for an associates degree is outrageous. It's nearly as much as my bachelor's degree (36k vs 40k, literally). And while I think the value technicians bring to the profession is worth more than that, the cost isn't financially a good ROI in any way. As far as I am aware, this is a nationally known program.

Meanwhile our local community college VT program is half the cost. But many choose the name college for the perceived prestige, much like many other people in many other industries.

At least I can pay my student loans. I have many techs who went there who can not

Hence why so many schools arent building hospitals. Saves a ton of money in overhead, including labor.

While there are pros and cons to the major corporations, at least BluePearl partnered with Penn Foster. While PF itself is not the best, if you have a group of employees go through it together it makes a world of difference. 2 hospitals ago I worked at a Mars practice and the staff would stagger their entry into into organized "groups" for spring and fall. The hospital backed them and gave them a small study stipend for snacks and stuff during weekly study periods and some of the credentialed staff helped tutor the newer "classes". That's a heck of a lot cheaper for people than some of the other options, but again it's so hospital dependent, and I've never seen that anywhere else.

There actually was a study in JAVMA in 2010 that for the average GP a credentialed technician can bring in almost 93k of additional revenue per year, and that was nearly 15 years ago. We have to start paying our paraprofessionals more, they're worth it not just for the patients but for the practice as a whole. And in specialty medicine, with a skilled technician, it's amazing what can be done - especially with someone at a VTS level.

I really think our field will continue to decline unless we can surround the DVMs with good staff, that not only has a direct impact on the patient and client care but also the quality of life of the DVM. I handled 95% of phone calls for my diplomat at my last job, allowing her to call pDVMs and do additional tasks, and I do other things for her currently that no one else is trained to do. This means that she can spend time with her family instead of drowning in paperwork all the time, and it means I was utilized at my highest levels which made me professionally happy in my working hours. My husband's hospital has a similar model with using their paraprofessional staff, though they also have house officers, which gives him a pretty amazing quality of life. The staff does most of the paperwork, the house officers finish the details, and he reviews and tweaks. It's doable, it's just different. /off soapbox.

 

[pinkpuppy9]

SAVMA just passed that weekly duty hours for clinical rotations shouldn’t exceed 60 hours. Don’t love the last line where we have to alert the supervisors, because I feel like we’ll be told to suck it up.

View attachment 388952

A lot of schools (even the ones that were exposed in published articles recently) already have similar policies in place and just don't follow them. Probably all schools have proximity badges for students these days - it would make sense for schools to really start tracking hours spent in the hospital via a clock-in system. I think that would be the only way to prove the hours worked, especially if it ever gets to a point where people start to take action against schools. In one article, a dean (I think) literally said 'If they hit those hours, they can just go home' and that right there shows that admin has no idea what goes on in the teaching hospital, lol.

It does get hard to generalize when the needs of each rotation/service can be extremely different. On top of that, each student is different. I'd be curious how one would go about managing the hours of a student who is notoriously slow with their work. Not that I would want those students working long weeks necessarily, but that student would have to lose out on time elsewhere if the school were to adhere to these guidelines. Certainly not the majority, but I had enough classmates that would fall under this category that I could see it causing a problem for other students, especially if they had to routinely come in late the next day as a result.

Part of what prevents people getting credentials I think is the cost of education.

This, and the fact that it is hard for an aspiring tech to get a good impression of the career right now outside of income/debt. Most techs that have been in my life at some point are completely out of the field and would tell a would-be tech not to do it for many reasons. I've even seen some zoo techs start to dip out of vet tech work, which is a bit shocking since most of these positions are coveted and held until someone retires (or dies...).