Dismissed from medical school,

[Challenger1215]

I'm posting for a friend,

he was dismissed from school for "academic dishonesty" as he took a quiz for another classmate that was not able to make it for that day.

The school board and committee decided to dismiss him from school while being in his 3rd year; what are options available? I know getting a lawyer would be first, but what are the odds of going against the school?

I understand that he's worked hard to get in and worked hard to stay in school and was only looking out for a classmate, but being dismissed entirely from medical school for doing so just sounds harsh. I would imagine they would at least suspend the student even after appeal.

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[cbrons]

I'm posting for a friend,

he was dismissed from school for "academic dishonesty" as he took a quiz for another classmate that was not able to make it for that day.

The school board and committee decided to dismiss him from school while being in his 3rd year; what are options available? I know getting a lawyer would be first, but what are the odds of going against the school?

I understand that he's worked hard to get in and worked hard to stay in school and was only looking out for a classmate, but being dismissed entirely from medical school for doing so just sounds harsh. I would imagine they would at least suspend the student even after appeal.

Academic dishonesty is one of the unforgivable sins of the Church of Academia.

What exactly would a lawyer be able to do? It seems very cut and dry that he took a graded exam for a classmate. I don't know of a medical school in this country that wouldn't expel you for that.

That being said, tell him to look into the official student handbook/policy guide or whatever that students are supposed to be given by every medical school. In that document there should be very specific crimes and punishments for said crimes, along with a procedure on how they are adjudicated. The only legal hope would be that the school lists cheating as something for which a first-time offense is punished with something less than expulsion.

 

[aalamruad]

Lol gg to your "friend," this is the most open and shut case of med school dismissal ever.

 

[Lawpy]

Dismissed from school, what are my options?

I'm posting for a friend,

Lol gg to your "friend," this is the most open and shut case of med school dismissal ever.

Yeah the thread title gave it away. Sorry OP to hear about your friend.

 

[akinetopsia]

Your friend's action in "looking out for a classmate" has consequences. Looking out for a classmate would be texting them to remind them there is an assessment at a certain location, like this quiz, not taking it for them. It certainly sounds harsh that your friend was dismissed, but do you think the punishment doesn't fit their action?

Integrity is kind of important to medical students, and certainly for physicians.

 

[Astra]

F

 

[zeppelinpage4]

This doesn't add up. Wasn't there some thread about a Michigan student jumping out of a moving taxi to avoid the cab fare, and getting penalized for some behavior problems on the wards? The school pushed that kid through the residency app process and finally stepped in when that student got a DUI or something severe like that after the match. I've seen students get dismissed but it usually happens after repeat offenses.


Not to condone academic dishonesty, I understand it warrants consequences and I'm sure we're missing some details here. But if this is a first offense and this student has no prior issues with dishonesty/cheating, full on dismissal sounds like overkill to me here. If this is a first offense, a mark on professionalism or note in the record about the incident with a warning would make more sense. It's a crime, but the punishment sure doesn't seem to fit it...unless some other key details or past history of problems with the administration are being left out.

 

[aalamruad]

This doesn't add up. Wasn't there some thread about a Michigan student jumping out of a moving taxi to avoid the cab fare, and getting penalized for some behavior problems on the wards? The school pushed that kid through the residency app process and finally stepped in when that student got a DUI or something severe like that after the match. I've seen students get dismissed but it usually happens after repeat offenses.


Not to condone academic dishonesty, I understand it warrants consequences, but full on dismissal sounds like overkill to me here. If this is a first offense, a mark on professionalism or note in the record about the incident with a warning would make more sense. It's a crime, but the people punishment sure doesn't seem to fit it...unless some other key details are past history of problems are being left out here.

This was blatant, premeditated academic dishonesty. Basically the worst possible offense in med school.

 

[Challenger1215]

This doesn't add up. Wasn't there some thread about a Michigan student jumping out of a moving taxi to avoid the cab fare, and getting penalized for some behavior problems on the wards? The school pushed that kid through the residency app process and finally stepped in when that student got a DUI or something severe like that after the match. I've seen students get dismissed but it usually happens after repeat offenses.


Not to condone academic dishonesty, I understand it warrants consequences and I'm sure we're missing some other details here, but this is a first offense and there's no prior issues with dishonesty/cheating, full on dismissal sounds like overkill to me here. If this is a first offense, a mark on professionalism or note in the record about the incident with a warning would make more sense. It's a crime, but the punishment sure doesn't seem to fit it...unless some other key details are past history of problems are being left out here.

Exactly as I believe the same thing. All else considered, would he be able to apply to other medical schools?

 

[zeppelinpage4]

Exactly as I believe the same thing. All else considered, would he be able to apply to other medical schools?

Not sure. My worry would be other schools possibly thinking your friend did something way more severe than what actually happened because students usually get dismissed for more severe reasons than this. But idk if programs would even know the whole situation.

If there's any way they can make amends with the administration and not get dismissed, id say that's the ideal option.

 

[zeppelinpage4]

This was blatant, premeditated academic dishonesty. Basically the worst possible offense in med school.

Honestly, cheating on a major exam =\= taking a quiz for a friend. IMHO

Not saying what this person did was right, but this all seems way out of proportion.

 

[username456789]

As usual, this thread will progress and it will come to light (very little by little as is often the case) that there is more to the story and/or the OP has a history of multiple infractions prior to this.

So sit back and enjoy the slow reveal, everyone.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

This doesn't add up. Wasn't there some thread about a Michigan student jumping out of a moving taxi to avoid the cab fare, and getting penalized for some behavior problems on the wards? The school pushed that kid through the residency app process and finally stepped in when that student got a DUI or something severe like that after the match. I've seen students get dismissed but it usually happens after repeat offenses.


Not to condone academic dishonesty, I understand it warrants consequences and I'm sure we're missing some details here. But if this is a first offense and this student has no prior issues with dishonesty/cheating, full on dismissal sounds like overkill to me here. If this is a first offense, a mark on professionalism or note in the record about the incident with a warning would make more sense. It's a crime, but the punishment sure doesn't seem to fit it...unless some other key details or past history of problems with the administration are being left out.

It sounds harsh but it's well within the schools rights. Depending on the admin culture I wouldn't be shocked to see this happen at any school.

Part of the problem is that it happened during third year, when grades actually matter and there's no time to build a redemption narrative before you start seeing patients (you already are).

 

[Pepe18]

Honestly, cheating on a major exam =\= taking a quiz for a friend. IMHO

Not saying what this person did was right, but this all seems way out of proportion.

My opinions are usually forgiving on these matters. I don't think sharing answers, etc is good, but it doesn't mean that you are going to be some immoral doctor. But if he is willing to do something so incredibly obviously wrong and dishonest, I would be concerned about his judgment ability. It's not like he gave his friend answers to the test. He fraudulently misrepresented himself in addition to cheating. Well within the schools right to dismiss him and I don't see what a lawyer would be able to do.

 

[icd22]

Professors are humans too. Most likely they would have understood if the student overslept or something else happened as long as this was his first time. There is no excuse for just taking the test for someone else. I think there is something else going on like maybe his friend was a test away from failing the year, which in perspective, it's not the end of the world. I had 3 friends fail a year. Two of them matched this week, the third quit medicine after failing the first year. I myself failed step 1. Part of being an adult is taking responsibilities for your shortcomings and working hard to overcome them. The best thing your friend can probably do at this point is accept his wrong dooing. Quit this "I just wanted to help a friend out." It really shows that he doesn't get why what he did is wrong. Maybe they'll have mercy and just make him repeat a year.

 

[Aonyx]

Would you guys say that hitting multiple clickers (to record attendance) for people who were absent for a class with mandatory attendance is on the same level as this?

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

Would you guys say that hitting multiple clickers (to record attendance) for people who were absent for a class with mandatory attendance is on the same level as this?

No, I would not. However, your administration might, and that is all that matters.

 

[RogueBanana]

Would you guys say that hitting multiple clickers (to record attendance) for people who were absent for a class with mandatory attendance is on the same level as this?

I think everyone I know has had someone "swipe them in" to a mandatory meeting so it would show they were there on paper.

I don't think that doing your friend a solid so they can sleep in and miss (presumably) a boring and unnecessary mandatory meeting is on the same level as premeditated cheating on a graded examination. Not even close.


I severely doubt you would be expelled for something like this, though if the school finds out then they may discipline you in some way. I doubt it would be severe. Probably just the punishment you would have received anyway for not showing up.

 

[RogueBanana]

Yeah the thread title gave it away. Sorry OP to hear about your friend.

lol check the thread name now.

10/10 spycraft

 

[Doctor Strange]

Game over. There is no defense you could come up with to make this go away.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using SDN mobile

 

[Mr Roboto]

Your "friend" would be DOA if he applied elsewhere in the US. Time for a new career OP.

 

[673441]

I'm posting for a friend,

he was dismissed from school for "academic dishonesty" as he took a quiz for another classmate that was not able to make it for that day.

The school board and committee decided to dismiss him from school while being in his 3rd year; what are options available? I know getting a lawyer would be first, but what are the odds of going against the school?

I understand that he's worked hard to get in and worked hard to stay in school and was only looking out for a classmate, but being dismissed entirely from medical school for doing so just sounds harsh. I would imagine they would at least suspend the student even after appeal.

Let's assume for a second this was your "friend," then I'd say it's a huge (Donald Trump level of huge) waste of money and time to obtain an attorney. They need to figure out if they can convince the committee they are not going to break institutional rules just because a colleague asks them to... you can realize the implications, right?

Doctor 1: hey my son has a migraine, can you prescribe me some Percocet?
Your friend: I don't think that's ethical, but you're my friend so I'll do it just this once...

That aside, this is an anonymous forum, why sugar coat that fact that you are the "friend?" Lmao

 

[673441]

Honestly, cheating on a major exam =\= taking a quiz for a friend. IMHO

Not saying what this person did was right, but this all seems way out of proportion.

Heck no! Ppl have been expelled for less! I mean, Dr. Anjali Ramkissoon lost her job for being a drunk [expletive] in public...

There were kids at a well known medical school who were busted for possessing NBME exams... needless to say they were wrecked by the admin and sold down the river to the NBME Gods for slaughter

 

[mimelim]

This doesn't add up. Wasn't there some thread about a Michigan student jumping out of a moving taxi to avoid the cab fare, and getting penalized for some behavior problems on the wards? The school pushed that kid through the residency app process and finally stepped in when that student got a DUI or something severe like that after the match. I've seen students get dismissed but it usually happens after repeat offenses.


Not to condone academic dishonesty, I understand it warrants consequences and I'm sure we're missing some details here. But if this is a first offense and this student has no prior issues with dishonesty/cheating, full on dismissal sounds like overkill to me here. If this is a first offense, a mark on professionalism or note in the record about the incident with a warning would make more sense. It's a crime, but the punishment sure doesn't seem to fit it...unless some other key details or past history of problems with the administration are being left out.

I don't understand, because one school screwed up and should have expelled a student sooner means that nobody should be kicked out for doing idiotic stuff? How does that make any sense?

This is about as blatant as they come. This isn't something that could be argued back and forth professionalism wise. This is blatant dishonesty, anything other than expulsion makes zero sense. I can understand middle school or high school this kind of attitude, but professional school? Give me a break.

Exactly as I believe the same thing. All else considered, would he be able to apply to other medical schools?

Of course you can apply to other medical schools, nobody will stop you. Just as nobody would ever accept you.

 

[libertyyne]

Heck no! Ppl have been expelled for less! I mean, Dr. Anjali Ramkissoon lost her job for being a drunk ****** in public...

There were kids at a well known medical school who were busted for possessing NBME exams... needless to say they were wrecked by the admin and sold down the river to the NBME Gods for slaughter

Wait you cant have NMBE exams ?Why do they sell them then?

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm posting for a friend,

he was dismissed from school for "academic dishonesty" as he took a quiz for another classmate that was not able to make it for that day.

The school board and committee decided to dismiss him from school while being in his 3rd year; what are options available? I know getting a lawyer would be first, but what are the odds of going against the school?

I understand that he's worked hard to get in and worked hard to stay in school and was only looking out for a classmate, but being dismissed entirely from medical school for doing so just sounds harsh. I would imagine they would at least suspend the student even after appeal.

This is some high tier dishonesty. The reason this isn't looked highly upon is it hints toward him covering dishonest behavior in the future- "oh, I just billed some stuff he didn't do for him, that's what friends are for." It's a serious lapse in integrity, and a lawyer will likely be a waste of money. His best option was owning up to it and begging to stay, but he likely lied to their faces and thus was shown the door.

 

[DokterMom]

No priors? Who cares? You gotta draw the line somewhere, and if not here, then where?

Heck no! Ppl have been expelled for less! I mean, Dr. Anjali Ramkissoon lost her job for being a drunk ****** in public...

No, she lost her job for a five+ minute tantrum during which she physically and verbally assaulted an innocent party while knowingly being filmed. Incredibly poor conduct and incredibly poor judgement. Unprofessional on every level.

Calling her conduct "being a drunk ****** in public" is both inaccurate and deeply offensive. As you may someday discover, people with intellectual disabilities are often some of the kindest and most considerate people you will ever meet. Using 'the R word' in this context is wrong on so many levels.

 

[hellobello18]

This is common sense. What your friend did was academic dishonesty and he has to face the consequences. This is med school and everyone is (supposed to be) an adult. if you don't know there's an exam then oh well. "Looking out" for a classmate at the expense of your hard work and future profession was a poor decision. Good luck.

 

[Azete]

Personally I think this is BS; I don't think someone's career should be over because they were looking out for a friend. His heart was obviously in the right place.

But, right or wrong, academia is pretty cut-and-dry about this. Legally there's no case here.

 

[Goro]

Your friend's medical career is over. Time to move on to something else.

Getting sanctioned for fraud and cheating is harsh? What exactly would one have to do to merit expulsion in your view? Kill someone?

There's published data that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. This is why my clinical colleagues take professionalism so seriously. It's a core competency for ACGME, LCME, and COCA and the AOA, for crying out loud!

I'm posting for a friend,

he was dismissed from school for "academic dishonesty" as he took a quiz for another classmate that was not able to make it for that day.

The school board and committee decided to dismiss him from school while being in his 3rd year; what are options available? I know getting a lawyer would be first, but what are the odds of going against the school?

I understand that he's worked hard to get in and worked hard to stay in school and was only looking out for a classmate, but being dismissed entirely from medical school for doing so just sounds harsh. I would imagine they would at least suspend the student even after appeal.

 

[Ismet]

Wait you cant have NMBE exams ?Why do they sell them then?

They're computer exams. You cannot copy or reproduce them. Also once you take the test, if I remember correctly, you don't have access to the whole test anymore, only the questions you got wrong. We don't allow people to write the questions here on the forums when they have a question about something. Copyright violation, and can get you in a lot of trouble.

Same with UWorld. It will literally send an alert and pop up with a warning if you try to take a screenshot or copy/paste something. If you have an active UWorld test you aren't allowed to copy/paste ANYTHING on your computer, not even if you minimize the UWorld window and go to Facebook or something, until you end the test or test review.

Let's assume for a second this was your "friend," then I'd say it's a huge (Donald Trump level of huge) waste of money and time to obtain an attorney. They need to figure out if they can convince the committee they are not going to break institutional rules just because a colleague asks them to... you can realize the implications, right?

Doctor 1: hey my son has a migraine, can you prescribe me some Percocet?
Your friend: I don't think that's ethical, but you're my friend so I'll do it just this once...

That aside, this is an anonymous forum, why sugar coat that fact that you are the "friend?" Lmao

Who the heck prescribes a kid Percocet for a migraine? Bad medicine in addition to ethical issue.

 

[Kgizzle]

Yeah the thread title gave it away. Sorry OP to hear about your friend.

Damn called out

 

[mistafab]

100% goner.

Lawyer is worthless in this case. The school is likely following through with its student code of conduct.

Time to move on OP to something else in life.

 

[673441]

They're computer exams. You cannot copy or reproduce them. Also once you take the test, if I remember correctly, you don't have access to the whole test anymore, only the questions you got wrong. We don't allow people to write the questions here on the forums when they have a question about something. Copyright violation, and can get you in a lot of trouble.

Same with UWorld. It will literally send an alert and pop up with a warning if you try to take a screenshot or copy/paste something. If you have an active UWorld test you aren't allowed to copy/paste ANYTHING on your computer, not even if you minimize the UWorld window and go to Facebook or something, until you end the test or test review.



Who the heck prescribes a kid Percocet for a migraine? Bad medicine in addition to ethical issue.

Well, drug seeking behavior...

 

[doctorskywalker]

And what happened to the classmate?

 

[Stagg737]

Honestly, cheating on a major exam =\= taking a quiz for a friend. IMHO

Not saying what this person did was right, but this all seems way out of proportion.

Personally I think this is BS; I don't think someone's career should be over because they were looking out for a friend. His heart was obviously in the right place.

But, right or wrong, academia is pretty cut-and-dry about this. Legally there's no case here.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and in medicine the slippery slope fallacy is taken very seriously. Maybe it was a one time slip, but OP's "friend" had plenty of times to make the right choice and still didn't so many people will see it as more than one mistake.

I think everyone I know has had someone "swipe them in" to a mandatory meeting so it would show they were there on paper.

I severely doubt you would be expelled for something like this, though if the school finds out then they may discipline you in some way. I doubt it would be severe. Probably just the punishment you would have received anyway for not showing up.

Yea, I think with something like that the person might get a 0 for that lecture or just have to attend a make-up session/do an extra assignment. The worst I could see would be a professionalism mark on the dean's letter or maybe failing the class if the administration is really vindictive or hates the student, but definitely not expulsion.

 

[Mad Jack]

Personally I think this is BS; I don't think someone's career should be over because they were looking out for a friend. His heart was obviously in the right place.

But, right or wrong, academia is pretty cut-and-dry about this. Legally there's no case here.

Covering for someone isn't your heart being in the right place- It's your heart being exactly in the sort of wrong place that leads to medical fraud and dishonesty. A particular example of a certain pediatrician in my area comes to mind, in which minor complaints were disregarded by friends whose "hearts were in the right place" in your opinion. They were just ignoring signs and complaints by children that they felt couldn't possibly be valid because he was such a good guy and he shouldn't be troubled with such obviously false accusations. Yep, sure enough, turns out he was a kiddie diddler of the worst degree, and all those colleagues more concerned about his reputation and his friendship than doing things properly just allowed it to happen.

The settlement was so devastating its effects are still being felt by that hospital system today.

 

[Mad Jack]

Your friend's medical career is over. Time to move on to something else.

Getting sanctioned for fraud and cheating is harsh? What exactly would one have to do to merit expulsion in your view? Kill someone?

There's published data that dishonest doctors start out as dishonest students. This is why my clinical colleagues take professionalism so seriously. It's a core competency for ACGME, LCME, and COCA and the AOA, for crying out loud!

That's what always gets me about these threads. What line do the entitled medical students of today believe one must cross fit expulsion, if not cheating or physical and verbal assault? Should I be able to get in bar fights and cheat on all of my exams and just get a free pass forever? Medical students should have a higher standard of ethical behavior than the rest of society, not a lower one.

 

[masaraksh]

Wow people are ****ing blood hungry here. I'd cut the person a break assuming this was the only offence - mainly because I think thats too harsh a punishment for the crime. I mean, yeah its thing you don't do and its pretty obvious why, but I don't think this is punished by ending someones future 30yr+ career. Jeez, people here are like out for murder or something. Also, we clearly don't know whether this friend was coerced into doing this, or pressured, etc. And is it just me or are the most blood hungry people in this thread the non-students and 'medical student (accepted)'s

Again, yeah its unprofessional and sure punishment is reasonable, but certainly not dismissal.

 

[hellobello18]

Wow people are ****ing blood hungry here. I'd cut the person a break assuming this was the only offence - mainly because I think thats too harsh a punishment for the crime. I mean, yeah its thing you don't do and its pretty obvious why, but I don't think this is punished by ending someones future 30yr+ career. Jeez, people here are like out for murder or something. Also, we clearly don't know whether this friend was coerced into doing this, or pressured, etc. And is it just me or are the most blood hungry people in this thread the non-students and 'medical student (accepted)'s

Again, yeah its unprofessional and sure punishment is reasonable, but certainly not dismissal.

You can't assume anything in these situations though. Because to be honest, how do we know that they haven't done this or something like it before and they just didn't get caught? We don't know and that's the problem. If they didn't get caught, they'd most likely feel comfortable doing something academically dishonest again. Where does it end? It's not just unprofessional, it's unethical. Ethics exist for a reason.

Also, the classmate who couldn't be there could have just made alternative arrangements, come on. This isn't the USMLE, it's a quiz. Get a doctor's note.

 

[Mad Jack]

Wow people are ****ing blood hungry here. I'd cut the person a break assuming this was the only offence - mainly because I think thats too harsh a punishment for the crime. I mean, yeah its thing you don't do and its pretty obvious why, but I don't think this is punished by ending someones future 30yr+ career. Jeez, people here are like out for murder or something. Also, we clearly don't know whether this friend was coerced into doing this, or pressured, etc. And is it just me or are the most blood hungry people in this thread the non-students and 'medical student (accepted)'s

Again, yeah its unprofessional and sure punishment is reasonable, but certainly not dismissal.

There's multiple adcoms, attendings, and medical students here. It's a pretty broad consensus.

 

[ChrisMack390]

I don't if a lawyer is relevant here. Outside of blatant discrimination against a protected class, I believe a medical school has more or less full power to admit/expel students as it sees fit.

 

[aim-agm]

Even if the "friend" could get the dismissal revoked, wouldn't this incident figure prominently into the Dean's letter? I kind of doubt any residency would want the "friend," making whether or not they could get back into medical school moot.

 

[Stagg737]

Wow people are ****ing blood hungry here. I'd cut the person a break assuming this was the only offence - mainly because I think thats too harsh a punishment for the crime. I mean, yeah its thing you don't do and its pretty obvious why, but I don't think this is punished by ending someones future 30yr+ career. Jeez, people here are like out for murder or something. Also, we clearly don't know whether this friend was coerced into doing this, or pressured, etc. And is it just me or are the most blood hungry people in this thread the non-students and 'medical student (accepted)'s

Again, yeah its unprofessional and sure punishment is reasonable, but certainly not dismissal.

We're also assuming that this is "all" the person did. As others have stated, we always get 5 pages in and then find out there were 3 other prior offenses or the quiz actually turned out to be a mid-term or that someone lied in front of an honors committee or something ridiculous.

Plus for all we know, this is the first time OP's "friend" was caught, that doesn't mean there wasn't other instances which is what med schools are also concerned about.

 

[libertyyne]

I don't a lawyer is relevant here. Outside of blatant discrimination against a protected class, I believe a medical school has more or less full power to admit/expel students as it sees fit.

Policy and procedure exist so bias does not play a role in such dismissals. Looking into the pertinent issues in the student handbook would be in the students best interest in this issue. It may be a moot point because the handbook may say that this is an offense that warrants expulsion. Or it may say that such instances are handled by a committee. A lawyer may be able to see if there is any possibility of a different outcome even though it seems unlikely.

 

[Azete]

Covering for someone isn't your heart being in the right place- It's your heart being exactly in the sort of wrong place that leads to medical fraud and dishonesty. A particular example of a certain pediatrician in my area comes to mind, in which minor complaints were disregarded by friends whose "hearts were in the right place" in your opinion. They were just ignoring signs and complaints by children that they felt couldn't possibly be valid because he was such a good guy and he shouldn't be troubled with such obviously false accusations. Yep, sure enough, turns out he was a kiddie diddler of the worst degree, and all those colleagues more concerned about his reputation and his friendship than doing things properly just allowed it to happen.

The settlement was so devastating its effects are still being felt by that hospital system today.

Yeah man, because taking a clicker quiz for someone so they can tend to a personal matter is the same as ignoring complaints of child abuse.

I'm impressed, even for the internet.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I think an mspe comment would have been more appropriate than dismissal.

 

[sullen-burger]

Yeah man, because taking a clicker quiz for someone so they can tend to a personal matter is the same as ignoring complaints of child abuse.

Yeaaaaaaaaah, that's not what @Mad Jack said,

I'm gonna have to call strawman on this one.

 

[Mad Jack]

I think an mspe comment would have been more appropriate than dismissal.

Personally I would have dropped a serious red flag for academic dishonesty, basically ensuring a failed match. In a way that's even worse than dismissal- at least they saved him time and money by kicking him to the curb instead of sabotaging him.

 

[Kgizzle]

If first offense, answering clicker questions in class not expulsion worthy IMO. Taking a computer test for a friend as your friend in MEDICAL SCHOOL is pretty bad IMO. One's like speeding, the other is like driving drunk in a school zone next to an orphanage.