Dismissed from US MD school how will this affect my application to AA and PA programs?

[champion1]

Hi,

Looking for some guidance on this thread. I was dismissed from a US MD school last year for academic performance. I was a second year medical student who failed two courses infectious disease and neurology and did not pass the makeup exams which led to my dismissal from medical school. I am also in the appeal process of trying to get readmitted for the class this fall to repeat the second year of medical school. I realize there are no guarantees. Family has advised getting a lawyer to assist with the process.

I am strongly considering pursuing different careers in healthcare such as AA and PA. How badly does a dismissal from a US MD school impact my application to these other professions? I notice there are questions on the application about this matter as well as reporting of transcripts….

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[differentiating]

You may be better off asking that question on PA/AA forums. I imagine most of us here aren't very familiar with those application processes.

 

[Dave1980]

Hi,

Looking for some guidance on this thread. I was dismissed from a US MD school last year for academic performance. I was a second year medical student who failed two courses infectious disease and neurology and did not pass the makeup exams which led to my dismissal from medical school. I am also in the appeal process of trying to get readmitted for the class this fall to repeat the second year of medical school. I realize there are no guarantees. Family has advised getting a lawyer to assist with the process.

I am strongly considering pursuing different careers in healthcare such as AA and PA. How badly does a dismissal from a US MD school impact my application to these other professions? I notice there are questions on the application about this matter as well as reporting of transcripts….

Obviously it affects you a lot in a bad way (as it should). How exactly is a lawyer going to help you in the appeals process?

 

[El-Rami]

Ideally, the dean would have allowed you to withdraw without dismissal. However, you are dealt the hand that you are dealt with. Perhaps you can try to negotiate getting your dismissal changed to a withdrawal in good standing? I have heard of people doing this.

With PA, it will be a challenge if you were dismissed. I wouldn't use the word "impossible," but it will be hard. You might be able to mitigate this with some extenuating circumstances that explain your academic issues, such as a medical diagnosis. Ultimately you need to show how things would be different this time around. That's true for any other academic endeavor you make going forward, by the way.

For AA, I think they would be far more forgiving. I would contact some programs and just be fully up front with them about it and maybe see if it would be possible to meet via Zoom/one-on-one. They can give you some guidance. I know for a fact that some people previously in MD programs have switched to AA school. Former med students also go to PA school. So it's not impossible.

If you want, feel free to reach out to me via PM.

 

[El-Rami]

Obviously it affects you a lot in a bad way (as it should). How exactly is a lawyer going to help you in the appeals process?

I don't agree with it, but the idea is that the threat of litigation will make the school try to compromise with the student just so they don't have to waste resources going to court, even if the school is obviously in the right.

Personally I would try to avoid burning as many bridges as possible in the OP's situation, but if the OP was dismissed already then those bridges are likely already burned.

In an ideal world the school should try to at least do what they can in order for the student to get into a different academic program. The debt from medical school is enormous and quite frankly, they have a moral obligation to not ruin the student's life. Examples of helping students would be providing said student with career advice rather than just throwing the student to the wolves. These were, after all, academic issues rather than ethical misconduct.

You may be better off asking that question on PA/AA forums. I imagine most of us here aren't very familiar with those application processes.

Honestly that would be the last thing the OP should do. Such a thread on the PA forums would just result in a flame war because PAs generally take a dim view to someone in this kind of situation. The better bet would be the OP speaking with admissions officials, preferably face-to-face, for a frank discussion. If they can show extenuating circumstances and demonstrate how this won't be an issue going forward, that can go a long way for some programs. Also I wouldn't necessarily recommend a shotgun approach when applying to schools. They should target their applications to friendly programs where they have a higher chance of being accepted (and that doesn't mean matriculant averages being lower as that likely has no direct correlation...those schools might actually be more hesitant to admit this kind of student because they are already scrutinized for having lower matriculant stats). This requires extensive research on the OP's part as well as thick skin.

As far as I am aware, AAs don't have their own forums. I believe there might be a sub-Reddit, though. I do believe that AAs are more friendly to the idea of a former med student joining their ranks. Of course the OP will still have to prove how things will be different in the future because AA school is still a difficult program, even if it isn't med school.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Not sure of AA, but it seems like PA and pharmacy schools have proliferated the last 5 years and admission has become easier than before. This is an observation from some outside these fields so take it for what it’s worth.

 

[El-Rami]

Not sure of AA, but it seems like PA and pharmacy schools have proliferated the last 5 years and admission has become easier than before. This is an observation from some outside these fields so take it for what it’s worth.

I can't speak for PA schools and lower admissions standards relative to a few years ago or anything, but I can say with 100% certainty that pharmacy schools will admit just about anyone, no questions asked. The OP should steer clear of pharmacy school because of the job market being in the gutter.

Some professions in the healthcare industry that I would recommend the OP to look into are:

1) AA
2) PA
3) Podiatry
4) Perfusion
5) Medical Physics
6) Dosimetry
7) Healthcare administration

I think any of these careers are decent options, some being better than others. AA and PA are probably the best. Average base salary for AAs is about $200,000/year (assuming a few years experience) with starting salaries being about $150,000-180,000 (40 hours a week with the option to work locums or overtime). The absolute income ceiling for AAs is somewhere between $250,000-300,000 from what I understand. PA can be pretty good too, especially since they don't have the geographical restrictions that AAs face. However, AAs are generally making a lot more money and the job market for AAs is really strong at the moment.

I believe medical physicists in the US can make about $120,000-150,000. OP might have to do some advanced math courses and upper-level physics in a post-bac and then do a master's program.

Perfusion can be either a post-graduate certificate (I've seen $18,000-25,000 for the tuition costs) or a master's program. But I hear that this work is extremely stressful/prone to being scapegoated if the surgery doesn't go well. Can make six-figure salary.

Podiatry school is about as expensive as a typical MD program and is 4 years of school + 3 years of residency. Salaries are inconsistent and you could either end up making okay money or barely pulling a six-figure salary after all that training.

Dosimetry I believe requires a bachelor's or master's degree. If I remember correctly, it is a six-figure salary.

Healthcare administration is also a pretty good field with solid earning potential.

There's stuff like medical device sales liaison but I don't know anything about that career, nor would I want to do it if I were in the OP's shoes.

For non-healthcare careers, look into computer science/software engineering. I have heard of people getting decent jobs after doing a six-month bootcamp.

 

[Gambino.]

Podiatry school is about as expensive as a typical MD program and is 4 years of school + 3 years of residency. Salaries are inconsistent and you could either end up making okay money or barely pulling a six-figure salary after all that training.

Don't pods take similar pre-clinicals as medical students? Wouldn't the same risk of failing be present in a DPM school?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Someone in my class got in trouble for posting antisemitic photos on Facebook and then ultimately got kicked out for that and other things. He got accepted to multiple PA schools and will be starting this year. So I don’t think their standards are very high.

 

[El-Rami]

Don't pods take similar pre-clinicals as medical students? Wouldn't the same risk of failing be present in a DPM school?

Correct. However, I am approaching this from the assumption that the OP may have extenuating circumstances and that past performance isn't necessarily indicative of future performance. Medical schools are pretty good about selecting strong students, so I personally believe it is less likely an issue of an inability to perform well academically and more likely due to some other causes that we are not aware of.

Someone in my class got in trouble for posting antisemitic photos on Facebook and then ultimately got kicked out for that and other things. He got accepted to multiple PA schools and will be starting this year. So I don’t think their standards are very high.

I don't necessarily know much about the type of scenario you are talking about, but the former med students who applied to a local PA program had some extenuating circumstances relating to their health and were essentially offered a second chance. Others were readmitted to the MD program. It was just a very case-by-case situation and not necessarily indicative of lax standards.

I do know that PA programs are hyper-conscious of the idea of people choosing PA as a backup career. It can be easy to piss off admissions if you don't choose your words carefully.

 

[Redpancreas]

This question's more appropriate for the PA/AA (not sure what that is) forum. From my superficial understanding, PA schools have very minimal standards outside the hours of clinic service and OP should be fine even with a medical school dismissal. Sure they'll ask about it during interviews because frankly it's an interesting tid bit to talk about, but I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[champion1]

Thanks to everyone for their input.

 

[champion1]

Posted the same thread in the pa forums. El-Rami’s assessment of pa programs seems to be the most accurate.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

With PA, it will be a challenge if you were dismissed. I wouldn't use the word "impossible," but it will be hard.

Again, someone from my class literally got dismissed for antisemitism and professionalism issues, and he got into multiple PA schools. Doesn’t seem very hard.

 

[Lawpy]

Again, someone from my class literally got dismissed for antisemitism and professionalism issues, and he got into multiple PA schools. Doesn’t seem very hard.

Did he explain to PA schools why he got dismissed?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Did he explain to PA schools why he got dismissed?

I’m guessing he concealed that, but he still had to write that he was dismissed.

 

[El-Rami]

This question's more appropriate for the PA/AA (not sure what that is) forum. From my superficial understanding, PA schools have very minimal standards outside the hours of clinic service and OP should be fine even with a medical school dismissal. Sure they'll ask about it during interviews because frankly it's an interesting tid bit to talk about, but I wouldn't sweat it.

This is horrible advice. Getting an interview will be a challenge for someone with a medical school dismissal.

Again, someone from my class literally got dismissed for antisemitism and professionalism issues, and he got into multiple PA schools. Doesn’t seem very hard.

There are people who get readmitted to medical school for substance abuse disorders and professional misconduct (anger management issues and the like). I've met multiple older attendings who knew someone personally who was able to get back in (even to a different US school) with this kind of situation. There are stories on SDN about med school applicants with a past DUI or past history of cheating in college being offered admission to medical schools, given that plenty of time has passed. It's difficult but not impossible.

If someone had a moral/character defect (such as racism) it wouldn't be inconceivable for them to lie about it on application. We literally don't know what they put on their application and what they told interviewers. While there are people out there who would give someone a second chance for a serious mistake, getting multiple acceptance offers is pretty suspect.

 

[Redpancreas]

This is horrible advice. Getting an interview will be a challenge for someone with a medical school dismissal.



There are people who get readmitted to medical school for substance abuse disorders and professional misconduct (anger management issues and the like). I've met multiple older attendings who knew someone personally who was able to get back in (even to a different US school) with this kind of situation. There are stories on SDN about med school applicants with a past DUI or past history of cheating in college being offered admission to medical schools, given that plenty of time has passed. It's difficult but not impossible.

If someone had a moral/character defect (such as racism) it wouldn't be inconceivable for them to lie about it on application. We literally don't know what they put on their application and what they told interviewers. While there are people out there who would give someone a second chance for a serious mistake, getting multiple acceptance offers is pretty suspect.

Yeah…OK. I’m not sure why you’re so invested in this discussion that’s not even in the scope of this forum, but if we accept that PA schools don’t have the same standards of admission across the board as demonstrated by the quality of applicants and the types of schools that offer a PA, it’s not difficult to realize OP will have a far easier time getting admitted to PA school.

Also, as for “horrible” advice…for who? For OPs livelihood or for the reputation of PAs? Dissuading OP from applying to a much less rigorous field just serves to artificially prop up those fields which have already self-aggrandized themselves enough. Of course OP shouldn't go in with vocal anti-PA rhetoric, but if he/she avoids that, I'm sure many places will be willing to him/her her this coveted "second chance" lol. It’s very difficult to reconcile what you say just above about MD schools and then take amything you say about PA schools seriously.

 

[Dave1980]

This is horrible advice. Getting an interview will be a challenge for someone with a medical school dismissal.



There are people who get readmitted to medical school for substance abuse disorders and professional misconduct (anger management issues and the like). I've met multiple older attendings who knew someone personally who was able to get back in (even to a different US school) with this kind of situation. There are stories on SDN about med school applicants with a past DUI or past history of cheating in college being offered admission to medical schools, given that plenty of time has passed. It's difficult but not impossible.

If someone had a moral/character defect (such as racism) it wouldn't be inconceivable for them to lie about it on application. We literally don't know what they put on their application and what they told interviewers. While there are people out there who would give someone a second chance for a serious mistake, getting multiple acceptance offers is pretty suspect.

Why do you have so many strong opinions and so much advice about everything...ugh

 

[El-Rami]

I have no investment in the reputation of PAs. However, I do care about people who find themselves in similar situations to the OP getting advice that is actually realistic and useful. Telling people to "not sweat it" about a medical school dismissal is not useful advice.

People finding themselves in the OP's situation are typically left without any support from their school, and there are very few sources of information to help guide them through a difficult situation. With the heavy burden of medical school debt, this is a very serious issue.

Make no mistake, being dismissed from medical school is a life-altering event.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Make no mistake, being dismissed from medical school is a life-altering event.

Depending on the reason, it should be.

 

[El-Rami]

Yeah…OK. I’m not sure why you’re so invested in this discussion that’s not even in the scope of this forum, but if we accept that PA schools don’t have the same standards of admission across the board as demonstrated by the quality of applicants and the types of schools that offer a PA, it’s not difficult to realize OP will have a far easier time getting admitted to PA school.

Also, as for “horrible” advice…for who? For OPs livelihood or for the reputation of PAs? Dissuading OP from applying to a much less rigorous field just serves to artificially prop up those fields which have already self-aggrandized themselves enough. Of course OP shouldn't go in with vocal anti-PA rhetoric, but if he/she avoids that, I'm sure many places will be willing to him/her her this coveted "second chance" lol. It’s very difficult to reconcile what you say just above about MD schools and then take amything you say about PA schools seriously.

I just want to chime in a bit more here.

Yes, PA schools generally have lower matriculant average stats than MD programs, although DO and PA programs are generally more similar in terms of the type of applicants they admit. PA programs do emphasize different things on an application than med schools. For example, you aren't a competitive applicant at most programs until have have around 1000 or more "direct patient care" hours. From my understanding, they don't place as much emphasis on research and publications.

For someone who has left a medical school program, the issue isn't really a numbers game like it would be if they were pre-med deciding whether to attend med school or PA school. Many PA programs actually have policies where they won't even consider people previously enrolled in a medical school. It doesn't matter if you have a 4.0 GPA and a strong resume. They just won't even look at your application.

So as you can see, it isn't so simple to get into a PA program after dropping out of (or getting dismissed from) medical school. Add to that the sensitivity that PAs have about physicians looking down on them as well as the idea that people might pick PA as a backup for not getting into med school, and suddenly someone in this kind of situation has a hard time convincing a school to take them.

I could care less about a profession's reputation. I do, however, care about the OP finding a program that will enable them to pay off their loans and live a decent life. Being dismissed from medical school can mean the end of a medical career, but it doesn't mean that the person should be doomed to a life of poverty.

You don't like that I mention that medical schools have given second chances to people with professional conduct issues? Tough. I was responding to someone that was implying that this is unique to other professions and that this was evidence that they have poor standards.

 

[PTPuser]

OP, are you aware of your own deficit and as to why you failed those courses?

If not, that is something you will need to figure out first and remediate those deficiencies. Cause you're going to have to take those courses again and the materials will come back in some form.

For me, Head and neck / neuro was the bane of my existent but I hulled a$$ and just got through it barely passing, so I can empathize with the difficulties. But you really need to figure out happened so you can be successful moving forward with whatever pathway.

 

[Dral]

Out of curiosity, was the process at your school to just give a make up exam after the failed course?

I could be missing something, but that seems like an ok way to keep you on a timeline, but not so great in terms of actually learning the material. While one can hopefully teach it to themselves after a first pass on the class, there was likely something wrong with your learning process during the course that prevented you from mastering the material. Was something going on in your life at that time that lead to you losing focus?

Hopefully they let you take the year over to give you a chance to properly focus on mastering the material. Best of luck!

 

[futureapppsy2]

You may be better off asking that question on PA/AA forums. I imagine most of us here aren't very familiar with those application processes.

Off-topic, but as a fellow ace, I love your avatar!

 

[Redpancreas]

I just want to chime in a bit more here.

Yes, PA schools generally have lower matriculant average stats than MD programs, although DO and PA programs are generally more similar in terms of the type of applicants they admit. PA programs do emphasize different things on an application than med schools. For example, you aren't a competitive applicant at most programs until have have around 1000 or more "direct patient care" hours. From my understanding, they don't place as much emphasis on research and publications.

For someone who has left a medical school program, the issue isn't really a numbers game like it would be if they were pre-med deciding whether to attend med school or PA school. Many PA programs actually have policies where they won't even consider people previously enrolled in a medical school. It doesn't matter if you have a 4.0 GPA and a strong resume. They just won't even look at your application.

So as you can see, it isn't so simple to get into a PA program after dropping out of (or getting dismissed from) medical school. Add to that the sensitivity that PAs have about physicians looking down on them as well as the idea that people might pick PA as a backup for not getting into med school, and suddenly someone in this kind of situation has a hard time convincing a school to take them.

I could care less about a profession's reputation. I do, however, care about the OP finding a program that will enable them to pay off their loans and live a decent life. Being dismissed from medical school can mean the end of a medical career, but it doesn't mean that the person should be doomed to a life of poverty.

You don't like that I mention that medical schools have given second chances to people with professional conduct issues? Tough. I was responding to someone that was implying that this is unique to other professions and that this was evidence that they have poor standards.

They have lower admissions requirements, and as a result, have less scholastic potential (test-taking ability) which is what OP got dismissed for.

I'm aware of direct patient care hours and know most PA schools require such which leads to some self-selection in those applying to PA schools. These clinical hours, however, where you're accountable for anything outside the scope of a high school student.

Rather than continue this argument, I suggest OP applies broadly to PA schools. I think OP will be very succesful so long as he has met the requirements.

Regarding the numbers game, medical school isn't only a numbers game either and every program has to the standards they ultimately settle at. There are going to be tons of PA programs willing to take OP. I also don't think the majority of PA schools have such a rule that they're not going to accept former MD/DO students and suspect you're just trying to provide a one-off case to make the PA route seem more difficult for one reason or another which only you know.

Also, nice false equivalency between DO and PA students. They're not even in the same ballpark. There's this thing called the MCAT. Last time I heard, pre-PA students could decide if they wanted to take it or not and can decide whether or not to reveal their score. Talk about no-lose situation.

 

[Redpancreas]

Telling people to "not sweat it" about a medical school dismissal is not useful advice.

People finding themselves in the OP's situation are typically left without any support from their school, and there are very few sources of information to help guide them through a difficult situation.

I personally think it's more unhelpful to overexaggerate the difficulty of an endeavo. I think OP should apply if he wants after obtaining the DPCs.

 

[Chads2]

Yes, PA schools generally have lower matriculant average stats than MD programs, although DO and PA programs are generally more similar in terms of the type of applicants they admit.

Nice way to throw in the word “generally” to excuse this sweeping generalization

Also, nice false equivalency between DO and PA students. They're not even in the same ballpark.

Yup.

 

[bobtoejam]

Can anyone tell me what AAs are? I’m really confused on that one. Googling didn’t help me lol

 

[SpicyFeet]

Can anyone tell me what AAs are? I’m really confused on that one. Googling didn’t help me lol

I think they are referring to anesthesiologist assistant. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

 

[NY_Med]

I just want to chime in a bit more here.

Yes, PA schools generally have lower matriculant average stats than MD programs, although DO and PA programs are generally more similar in terms of the type of applicants they admit. PA programs do emphasize different things on an application than med schools. For example, you aren't a competitive applicant at most programs until have have around 1000 or more "direct patient care" hours. From my understanding, they don't place as much emphasis on research and publications.

For someone who has left a medical school program, the issue isn't really a numbers game like it would be if they were pre-med deciding whether to attend med school or PA school. Many PA programs actually have policies where they won't even consider people previously enrolled in a medical school. It doesn't matter if you have a 4.0 GPA and a strong resume. They just won't even look at your application.

So as you can see, it isn't so simple to get into a PA program after dropping out of (or getting dismissed from) medical school. Add to that the sensitivity that PAs have about physicians looking down on them as well as the idea that people might pick PA as a backup for not getting into med school, and suddenly someone in this kind of situation has a hard time convincing a school to take them.

I could care less about a profession's reputation. I do, however, care about the OP finding a program that will enable them to pay off their loans and live a decent life. Being dismissed from medical school can mean the end of a medical career, but it doesn't mean that the person should be doomed to a life of poverty.

You don't like that I mention that medical schools have given second chances to people with professional conduct issues? Tough. I was responding to someone that was implying that this is unique to other professions and that this was evidence that they have poor standards.

Sort of a side note.... but PA Programs say 1000+ hours of DPC, but I know at least 4 peers from undergrad who got accepted with <300 hours. Really don't think they are strict at all on it.

 

[El-Rami]

Nice way to throw in the word “generally” to excuse this sweeping generalization

Not trying to get into a flame war over something stupid (which seems to be the norm for SDN), but there are people with sub-500 MCAT who get into DO schools. It is definitely not unheard of for people to get into medical school with a low 3.x GPA. I am not even talking about Caribbean schools here, which have no real admissions standards. Even the lowly midlevel schools that accept MCAT are wanting 500-505 MCAT with about matriculant GPAs between 3.4-3.7. So I think it is highly appropriate to compare DO and PA/AA matriculants. Both med school and PA/AA will have a lot of lower quality applicants, but who cares? It only matters who gets accepted. Medical schools might get thousands of applicants, but most of those are pretty poor quality. For someone with a high GPA like myself (over 3.9) I don't think getting into medical school is that hard. Been there, done that. No one here is arguing that medical schools don't typically admit higher-caliber students.

It is pointless to talk about extreme examples. It is only helpful to speak about things generally. If you bothered to take two seconds to read the thread, you would have seen that the OP corroborated what I said about PA schools.

Also, it is pointless to keep arguing over this, seeing how this thread is becoming a flame war. Let's just agree to disagree. I am just here to offer some guidance for the OP so that they (and others who read this thread) will have some ideas where to start their search after such a devastating event. My advice, even if it may contain some inaccuracies (I never claimed to be infallible -- I am a human being like everyone else in this thread) is infinitely better than some of the past comments I have seen on SDN and Reddit telling people to flee the country; the latter kind of advice is unhelpful and is very harmful for one's mental health.

 

[altblue]

If I could ask, why is the OP being permanently dismissed for failing two remediations? Usually people are forced to repeat the year by this point.... They usually don't outright get the boot from the program

If there's more to the story than this, or if they have a long standing history of academic or mental health issues, it might be smarter to sort that that before applying for readmission or to other professional programs

 

[Gilakend]

I have a friend in AA school, multiple of his classmates are previous med students (DO).

 

[El-Rami]

I have a friend in AA school, multiple of his classmates are previous med students (DO).

I believe they would certainly value a former med student's general medical knowledge.

 

[mjl1717]

Someone please confirm what AA is. [we have the pressurized career nurse anesthesiologist]

 

[El-Rami]

Someone please confirm what AA is. [we have the pressurized career nurse anesthesiologist]

Anesthesiologist Assistant. They work within the ACT model under the supervision of an anesthesiologist (MD/DO). Their training is usually handled by schools of medicine, is the same length as CRNA programs (30 months), and they have a pre-med background rather than a nursing background. They are hired preferentially over CRNAs in states that allow them to practice (CRNAs lobby against AAs) and have the full support of the anesthesiologist community because hiring AAs protects their jobs from under-qualified CRNAs.

tl;dr It's a similar take on CRNAs but better.

 

[fluorescent colors]

Someone please confirm what AA is. [we have the pressurized career nurse anesthesiologist]

Not all states hire AA's. For questions refer to this website: FAQs

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Someone please confirm what AA is. [we have the pressurized career nurse anesthesiologist]

Just FYI there’s no such thing as a nurse anesthesiologist in the US. An anesthesiologist is a physician.

 

[El-Rami]

mjl's profile says he is a physician. I believe he is just joking about the nurse anesthesiologist thing.

 

[mjl1717]

mjl's profile says he is a physician. I believe he is just joking about the nurse anesthesiologist thing.

Just FYI there’s no such thing as a nurse anesthesiologist in the US. An anesthesiologist is a physician.

1) I thought it was a given that there is a myriad of specialties and sub specialties in medicine!

2) CRNA (certified registered nurse Anesthesiologist) has been around for since 1956. They are autonomous in 20 states.

3) When I see AA I think Administrative Assistant, Ambulance Assistant, etc. "Learn something new every day"

4) Always thought that safely inducing coma or inducing consciousness in a 70kg or obese person with CAD was a decent amount of "pressure."
That's just me. Thx for the responses.

 

[xffan624]

1) I thought it was a given that there is a myriad of specialties and sub specialties in medicine!

2) CRNA (certified registered nurse Anesthetists) has been around for since 1956. They are autonomous in 20 states.

3) When I see AA I think Administrative Assistant, Ambulance Assistant, etc. "Learn something new every day"

4) Always thought that safely inducing coma or inducing consciousness in a 70kg or obese person with CAD was a decent amount of "pressure."
That's just me. Thx for the responses.

FTFY

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

1) I thought it was a given that there is a myriad of specialties and sub specialties in medicine!

2) CRNA (certified registered nurse Anesthesiologist) has been around for since 1956. They are autonomous in 20 states.

3) When I see AA I think Administrative Assistant, Ambulance Assistant, etc. "Learn something new every day"

4) Always thought that safely inducing coma or inducing consciousness in a 70kg or obese person with CAD was a decent amount of "pressure."
That's just me. Thx for the responses.

They are not called nurse anesthesiologists. They are called nurse anesthetists. An anesthesiologist is an MD or a DO.

 

[El-Rami]

I thought "CRNA" stood for "Certified Registered Nurse Assistant" for a long time.

 

[mjl1717]

They are not called nurse anesthesiologists. They are called nurse anesthetists. An anesthesiologist is an MD or a DO.

For sure! I stand corrected.

 

[DrBendova]

It may be less confusing to refer to them as CAA, Certified Anesthesiologist Assistants.

And mjl1717, you are correct. Since CAAs are specialized PAs, they require similar but shorter training to med students and anesthesiologist residency. That is why they are paid far more than typical PAs. And as far as I know, they are far more desired than CRNAs bc they do not lobby for autonomy which of course brings it's own drama.

Interestingly, there is a massive need for CAAs since there are so few programs. They are expanding to allow anesthesiologists to have more CAAs under them too. It's a great career is you want a short education route, 200-300k salary working 9-5, less responsibility than a doctor, and I believe the requirement for acceptance is simpler as well. NOVA only requires 8 hours of shadowing an anesthesiologist, CRNA, or CAA.

Just keep in mind, they can only practice in 17 or so states (including DC) and don't have any other career trajectories outside of different types of surgeries to specialize in.

 

[SonGoku751]

I have a friend in AA school, multiple of his classmates are previous med students (DO).

Although this is much more rare, there are previous MD students who enter AA programs. Someone I know left a T20 med (Umich) after MS1 to enter one of Nova’s programs. And another N=1, but someone this cycle got into Indiana’s AA program after being dismissed from their MD program after too many Step 1 failures. Point being, you wouldn’t be in unprecedented territory if you pivoted to AA after being in a MD program OP. I don’t think the dismissal would hinder your application much at all for the AA admissions cycle, especially if you had a strong pre med app (which you most likely did if you got into a US MD program).

 

[calivianya]

I have no dog in the AA vs. CRNA debate, just an observation.

Since AAs have such limited practice rights as far as states go and they need to have physician supervision, I personally wouldn't go that route. Considering there's that hospital in WI that kicked all their physicians in favor of CRNAs... if the anesthesiologists get kicked out, the AAs are going to get kicked out, too, since they require an anesthesiologist to work under. I bet a lot of hospitals are watching that situation very, very closely since CRNAs are so much cheaper than anesthesiologists. If it works out for the WI hospital, I would think that attitude could spread.

Safer for your job security to be a CRNA if you end up really wanting anesthesia imo. I'd just go PA in your shoes.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

since CRNAs are so much cheaper than anesthesiologists.

Are they though? If you look into this, the only people saying CRNAs are cheaper are admins and CRNAs. And they are going exclusively by salary. They don’t take into account any of the other costs, which can actually make it more expensive to replace with only CRNAs.

 

[Mad Jack]

Anesthesiologist Assistant. They work within the ACT model under the supervision of an anesthesiologist (MD/DO). Their training is usually handled by schools of medicine, is the same length as CRNA programs (30 months), and they have a pre-med background rather than a nursing background. They are hired preferentially over CRNAs in states that allow them to practice (CRNAs lobby against AAs) and have the full support of the anesthesiologist community because hiring AAs protects their jobs from under-qualified CRNAs.

tl;dr It's a similar take on CRNAs but better.

The idea that AAs receive preference is not really correct. AAs cannot take independent call, unlike CRNAs, which makes them less flexible for a group or company to hire