Dismissed. What are my options?

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Yadster101 said:
Why is sdn so big on PA being a good career for someone that is able to get into med school? After an IM residency you can make 200k+ easily. Even FM docs make 170k+. PAs function in a similar role but are stuck at 100k for their entire careers. Is 2 years of less schooling worth the drop in salary?
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What is residency
 
Yadster101 said:
Why is sdn so big on PA being a good career for someone that is able to get into med school? After an IM residency you can make 200k+ easily. Even FM docs make 170k+. PAs function in a similar role but are stuck at 100k for their entire careers. Is 2 years of less schooling worth the drop in salary?
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I didn't mean to imply that PA is better for someone able to get into med school- although for some PA is a better fit.

- you can't omit residency years. It's a five year difference at least.
- for some it makes sense. Especially non-trads who spend 2-4 years trying to get an admission. This is doubly true for non-trad women who want kids but are waiting to complete their training first
- much more likely to need to move for med school and again for residency. Many are able to stay local for PA school or just move once. Again non-trads with families might think that's important
- how do you explain people going to pharmacy school? That's 4 years after college with possible residency afterwards to still make ~100k
- money isn't everything. I'd be demoralized if someone with 5 years less training was able "to function in a similar role" as me. Even if I made more money.

I would never try to convince someone to apply PA instead of med school. But I would also not try to dissuade anyone from PA either, and believe it can be very fullfilling.
 
Eokpar02 said:
Apply again if you want to be a physician.
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I don't think any US MD school would take a chance on someone who was dismissed. Not sure about DO. I think PA is the way to go for OP.

I still don't get why OP already got dismissed as a MS1... Most schools usually let people repeat.
 
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W19 said:
I don't think any US MD school would take a chance on someone who was dismissed. Not sure about DO. I think PA is the way to go for OP.

I still don't get why OP already got dismissed as a MS1... Most schools usually let people repeat.
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You are probably correct. Regardless, if the OP wants to follow the path and become a physician he/she can start again. There is no shame in any of it.
 
Yadster101 said:
Why is sdn so big on PA being a good career for someone that is able to get into med school? After an IM residency you can make 200k+ easily. Even FM docs make 170k+. PAs function in a similar role but are stuck at 100k for their entire careers. Is 2 years of less schooling worth the drop in salary?
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2 years less of school and never having to go through the hell that is residency. Plus they usually have much more manageable schedules than physicians, cam easily switch specialties, and tend to take very little (if any) call.
 
Eokpar02 said:
You are probably correct. Regardless, if the OP wants to follow the path and become a physician he/she can start again. There is no shame in any of it.
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Start again? No US school will touch them. Worse still, their residency app will be radioactive due to their prior dismissal if they go Carib or foreign. Dismissal is the end of the line, there is no coming back from it. To continue trying to be a physician would be both impossible and stupid.
 
Mad Jack said:
2 years less of school and never having to go through the hell that is residency. Plus they usually have much more manageable schedules than physicians, cam easily switch specialties, and tend to take very little (if any) call.
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That's is strange! Why would a physician hire PA/NP if they don't want to take calls?
 
W19 said:
That's is strange! Why would a physician hire a PA/NP if they don't want to take calls?
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Because they're cheap as hell and make back their salary and then some. It's hard for them to take call though, because they need backup for anything outside the box, so putting them on call instead of a physician could delay appropriate treatment and expose your group or hospital to lawsuits.

Surgical PAs will often take call worth their surgeon, as they have to be there to first assist. Can't think of any other heavy call environments for PAs though.
 
lazymed said:
I didn't mean to imply that PA is better for someone able to get into med school- although for some PA is a better fit.

- you can't omit residency years. It's a five year difference at least.
- for some it makes sense. Especially non-trads who spend 2-4 years trying to get an admission. This is doubly true for non-trad women who want kids but are waiting to complete their training first
- much more likely to need to move for med school and again for residency. Many are able to stay local for PA school or just move once. Again non-trads with families might think that's important
- how do you explain people going to pharmacy school? That's 4 years after college with possible residency afterwards to still make ~100k
- money isn't everything. I'd be demoralized if someone with 5 years less training was able "to function in a similar role" as me. Even if I made more money.

I would never try to convince someone to apply PA instead of med school. But I would also not try to dissuade anyone from PA either, and believe it can be very fullfilling.
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Ya you make a good point about older non-trads that would prob be better off but lets talk about someone <26. Residency is additional years but in the end you still come out ahead financially as an MD/DO. Honestly I think the only reason PA would be better would be if you want to avoid the stress of studying during M1/M2 and just have a less stressful path in general.
 
lazymed said:
- how do you explain people going to pharmacy school? That's 4 years after college with possible residency afterwards to still make ~100k
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Pharm school typically have significantly lower GPAs than med school. The three pharm schools in Illinois have gpa avgs of 3.2, 3.3 and 3.4 according to this thread.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...uic-university-of-illinois-at-chicago.725896/

The avg GPA at midwestern (Illinois) is above 3.7
https://www.midwestern.edu/programs-and-admission/il-physician-assistant-studies.html

So I think at least 30%, if not more, of these PA students could get into med school. Im just curious why so many ppl seem to choose the PA path n my guess is that it's to avoid stress. Which I think is not a bad idea--especially studying during m1/2
 
Yadster101 said:
Ya you make a good point about older non-trads that would prob be better off but lets talk about someone <26. Residency is additional years but in the end you still come out ahead financially as an MD/DO. Honestly I think the only reason PA would be better would be if you want to avoid the stress of studying during M1/M2 and just have a less stressful path in general.
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the only reason?

not everyone wants to work until they're 60. if you become a PA at 25 and live frugally you can retire pretty damn early.
 
Yadster101 said:
Pharm school typically have significantly lower GPAs than med school. The three pharm schools in Illinois have gpa avgs of 3.2, 3.3 and 3.4 according to this thread.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...uic-university-of-illinois-at-chicago.725896/

The avg GPA at midwestern (Illinois) is above 3.7
https://www.midwestern.edu/programs-and-admission/il-physician-assistant-studies.html

So I think at least 30%, if not more, of these PA students could get into med school. Im just curious why so many ppl seem to choose the PA path n my guess is that it's to avoid stress. Which I think is not a bad idea--especially studying during m1/2
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Not everyone wants to to go thru the grueling MS1/MS2 and MS3... Med school is a beast!
 
PL198 said:
the only reason?

not everyone wants to work until they're 60. if you become a PA at 25 and live frugally you can retire pretty damn early.
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I've dont the math. If you take a ~24 yr old and send him to an avg cost med school and give him a salary of 200k after a 4 yr residency the doc comes out ahead before the age of 40. If you live as frugally you will retire earlier as a doc.

EDIT: Unless you mean retire by age 39. I guess the PA could do that and live in poverty for the rest of their life.
 
Yadster101 said:
Pharm school typically have significantly lower GPAs than med school. The three pharm schools in Illinois have gpa avgs of 3.2, 3.3 and 3.4 according to this thread.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...uic-university-of-illinois-at-chicago.725896/

The avg GPA at midwestern (Illinois) is above 3.7
https://www.midwestern.edu/programs-and-admission/il-physician-assistant-studies.html

So I think at least 30%, if not more, of these PA students could get into med school. Im just curious why so many ppl seem to choose the PA path n my guess is that it's to avoid stress. Which I think is not a bad idea--especially studying during m1/2
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I sometimes regret not going to PA school. Like, I'd be done in just over a year if I'd gone that route instead. I could get on with my life, clock away some overtime, hopefully retire by 50 or so. Going the physician route, My life is going to suck for another 6 years, minimum, my retirement is going to be pushed off by a few years, and the physical stress of residency will wreck my body in my mid-30s. And I'm starting to warm up to the idea of being an intensivist, so that's 9 years of training left to go. ****, if I were a PA, I could be in the ICU next July.
 
Mad Jack said:
Because they're cheap as hell and make back their salary and then some. It's hard for them to take call though, because they need backup for anything outside the box, so putting them on call instead of a physician could delay appropriate treatment and expose your group or hospital to lawsuits.

Surgical PAs will often take call worth their surgeon, as they have to be there to first assist. Can't think of any other heavy call environments for PAs though.
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APPs do in fact take call in some settings where they get floor calls and consults. It's no different then having a resident on call that has to call the attending for things outside the box or outside their comfort zone.

They are usually compensated well for their call AND get days off in return.

Nonetheless, you're correct to say that most don't take any call, and it should be easy to land a job as an APP that requires no call nights or weekends.
 
Mad Jack said:
I sometimes regret not going to PA school. Like, I'd be done in just over a year if I'd gone that route instead. I could get on with my life, clock away some overtime, hopefully retire by 50 or so. Going the physician route, My life is going to suck for another 6 years, minimum, my retirement is going to be pushed off by a few years, and the physical stress of residency will wreck my body in my mid-30s. And I'm starting to warm up to the idea of being an intensivist, so that's 9 years of training left to go. ****, if I were a PA, I could be in the ICU next July.
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Retirement will NOT be pushed off. You come out ahead as a doc by age 40~. By age 50 you will have $1,000,000 more than a PA (100k*10yrs)
 
Basically being a PA is like being a senior resident in perpetuity with double the pay (to oversimplify a bit).

...my life ain't so bad, but I can't imagine doing it forever.
 
Yadster101 said:
I've dont the math. If you take a ~24 yr old and send him to an avg cost med school and give him a salary of 200k after a 4 yr residency the doc comes out ahead before the age of 40. If you live as frugally you will retire earlier as a doc.

EDIT: Unless you mean retire by age 39. I guess the PA could do that and live in poverty for the rest of their life.
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that's a terrible comparison.... the effort expended by both isn't even close to similar. under that logic, why doesn't every just become an ortho spine surgeon, I mean it has a huge ROI, right?

it takes a crap ton of work.

salary isn't everything........ I can't believe this has to be said.

not to mention you clearly don't understand the concept of present value.

100k made in 2015 isn't the same thing as 100k made in 2025
 
85k-100k for a 2 1/2 year MS degree is excellent, but PA also graduate with huge student loan--usually 150k... PA school is as expensive as med school...
 
Yadster101 said:
I've dont the math. If you take a ~24 yr old and send him to an avg cost med school and give him a salary of 200k after a 4 yr residency the doc comes out ahead before the age of 40. If you live as frugally you will retire earlier as a doc.

EDIT: Unless you mean retire by age 39. I guess the PA could do that and live in poverty for the rest of their life.
Click to expand...
You don't understand how to retire early. You live in poverty now so that you can be relatively well off later.

Last year, average physician assistant student loan debt was roughly 60k. Average physician debt was roughly 200k. Now, male physician assistants make an average of $116,575 in 2013 (the most recent year for which I can find reliable data), with some areas of practice earning more (urgent care paid $130,000, on average). You can graduate as a PA at 24 (or 22 if you do a bachelor's program). Now, let's run the numbers of how quickly you could retire. Maxing out your 401k, you end up with $80,000, after taxes and deductions. You have already saved $18,000, and throw $33,000 at your student loan debt for the first two years, and an additional $5,500 at a Roth IRA. During these two years, you also deposit $6,500 in investments, and live off of the remaining $35,000. After years 1 and 2, you apply the full $33,000 you were putting into student loans into your investment account, netting you $23,500 in tax-sheltered investments and $39,500 in taxable investments each year. At the end of year two, you will have $51,225.64 saved and zero debt at 26 years of age. Continue this for the next 13 years, and you end up with $1,733,256.72 at 39 years of age. If you hold off for a few more years, however, and decide to retire at 45, you'll have $3,423,472.40. At a 4% withdrawal rate (the rate that allows you to withdraw safely with a nest egg that never depletes and also corrects itself for inflation) you will end up with a yearly pre-tax income of $136,938.89, which is taxed at the capital gains rate of 15%, netting you an inflation-adjusted salary of $116,398 for the rest of your life for doing precisely dick.

Let's look at the physician side of things. An internist makes an average of $185,000 before tax (all numbers used are from 2013, for consistency, since it is the last year for which reliable data for both physicians and physician assistants is available and minimized speculation). Their debt on graduation is an average of 200k. The earliest an internal medicine residency would be completed would be 29. Since interest will be accruing on the physician's debt during residency, we're looking at $245,000 of debt post-residency if they have an optimistic 7% interest rate (everything is unsubsidized nowadays, yay). Now, you will be ineligible for Roth contributions, so the first few years, you're just going to contribute to a 401k. After taxes, benefits, and 401k contributions, our physician earns $116,015.97. Let's say he lives the same standard of living as our hypothetical PA. This gives him $81,015.97 to throw at his debt. His yearly interest is, however, much higher. It takes him three and a half years to get his debt squared away, all while having only saved $63,000 at 32.5 years of age. Now, he's got a lot of catching up to do if he wants to retire early like our PA. At 39 years of age, maxing out his 401k and putting 81k into investments each year for the remaining 6.5 years, our physician has only amassed $917,631.23. At 12 years, still living like a pauper and investing heavily, he has only amassed $2,350,933.35. At 48 years of age, our physician, after all of his hard work, has managed to amass a nest egg of $3,398,323.66, slightly less than his already retired PA colleague, and all with much more work and time invested.
 
Yadster101 said:
Pharm school typically have significantly lower GPAs than med school. The three pharm schools in Illinois have gpa avgs of 3.2, 3.3 and 3.4 according to this thread.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...uic-university-of-illinois-at-chicago.725896/

The avg GPA at midwestern (Illinois) is above 3.7
https://www.midwestern.edu/programs-and-admission/il-physician-assistant-studies.html

So I think at least 30%, if not more, of these PA students could get into med school. Im just curious why so many ppl seem to choose the PA path n my guess is that it's to avoid stress. Which I think is not a bad idea--especially studying during m1/2
Click to expand...

average gpas don't mean much by themselves. if you're an engineering major, in general you will have a worse gpa than if you're an english major

also where did you get that 30% from? from the new england journal of perineal care?
 
OP would be DOA at my school.

OP, consider clinical lab tech, nursing, DPM, or a PHD in a clinical field. I once went for a cardiac stress test and it was supervised by a PhD (in Cardiology/Physiology).

If OP had trouble in med school, he'd have trouble in our rigorous PA program.

As others have surmised here, OP was either already repeating a year, and still failing, or was failing MS1 so badly that it was beyond the level of remediation.

W19 said:
I don't think any US MD school would take a chance on someone who was dismissed. Not sure about DO. I think PA is the way to go for OP.

I still don't get why OP already got dismissed as a MS1... Most schools usually let people repeat.
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NickNaylor said:
In both cases though that data would be captured in statistics which are usually available to applicants. I would be concerned about going to a school with a 92% graduation rate or match rate.
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100% agree, but as a student I'd rather go with 92% graduation rate with 100% match than 100% graduation with only 92% match. If you are a student that is constantly failing and won't pass boards or match, then you're paying for 4 years of school, racking up crazy debt, then never getting to practice. You'd be screwed for life. If a student gets kicked out after M1, they'll probably still have 50-100k of debt, but it'll be less than 4 years worth of debt and they won't waste 3 years of their life getting a degree they won't ever be able to use. Both reflect poorly on the schools, but one leaves more students crippled for life.

W19 said:
85k-100k for a 2 1/2 year MS degree is excellent, but PA also graduate with huge student loan--usually 150k... PA school is as expensive as med school...
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Depends where you go. Some PA schools cost 25k/year while others cost 100k+. I think it has one of the highest cost discrepancies out of all of the professional degrees. Here's a link for reference:

http://www.thepalife.com/physician-assistant-program-tuition-and-costs-estimated/
 
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Stagg737 said:
100% agree, but as a student I'd rather go with 92% graduation rate with 100% match than 100% graduation with only 92% match. If you are a student that is constantly failing and won't pass boards or match, then you're paying for 4 years of school, racking up crazy debt, then never getting to practice. You'd be screwed for life. If a student gets kicked out after M1, they'll probably still have 50-100k of debt, but it'll be less than 4 years worth of debt and they won't waste 3 years of their life getting a degree they won't ever be able to use. Both reflect poorly on the schools, but one leaves more students crippled for life.
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sigh... people on this boards REALLY need to remember that not matching is not the same thing as not getting a spot.
 
WingedOx said:
sigh... people on this boards REALLY need to remember that not matching is not the same thing as not getting a spot.
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Let me rephrase then, schools that have 8% of people not moving to a PGY year, or even 3-5%. I'm talking about people that can't match, don't make it in the scramble, and end up going through the match again and never making it. Or people that made it into a pre-lim surgery spot but then can't match the following year (not sure how common that one is, but I've heard of it happening...).

I'd rather see students get weeded out (typically they're the ones that shouldn't be physicians anyway) than have them get all the way through and not get a residency position. Or even worse, if they are very sub-par students that graduate and do match, then end up ruining a patient's life because they weren't competent.
 
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Stagg737 said:
Let me rephrase then, schools that have 8% of people not moving to a PGY year, or even 3-5%. I'm talking about people that can't match, don't make it in the scramble, and end up going through the match again and never making it. Or people that made it into a pre-lim surgery spot but then can't match the following year (not sure how common that one is, but I've heard of it happening...).

I'd rather see students get weeded out (typically they're the ones that shouldn't be physicians anyway) than have them get all the way through and not get a residency position. Or even worse, if they are very sub-par students that graduate and DO match, then end up ruining a patient's life because they weren't competent.
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thanks. the post-NRMP anxiety threads really aren't emphasizing the point that the match itself isn't the be all end all.
 
Stagg737 said:
Let me rephrase then, schools that have 8% of people not moving to a PGY year, or even 3-5%. I'm talking about people that can't match, don't make it in the scramble, and end up going through the match again and never making it. Or people that made it into a pre-lim surgery spot but then can't match the following year (not sure how common that one is, but I've heard of it happening...).

I'd rather see students get weeded out (typically they're the ones that shouldn't be physicians anyway) than have them get all the way through and not get a residency position. Or even worse, if they are very sub-par students that graduate and DO match, then end up ruining a patient's life because they weren't competent.
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That's one hell of a burn to osteopathic GME. Not all of out programs are bad (though we'll soon find out just how many are after the merger is complete).
 
Mad Jack said:
That's one hell of a burn to osteopathic GME. Not all of out programs are bad (though we'll soon find out just how many are after the merger is complete).
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The 'DO' did not stand for D.O. there, I meant the actual verb 'do'. I guess I should have bolded it or italicized it instead of capitalizing...fixed it though.
 
Mad Jack said:
You don't understand how to retire early. You live in poverty now so that you can be relatively well off later.

Last year, average physician assistant student loan debt was roughly 60k. Average physician debt was roughly 200k. Now, male physician assistants make an average of $116,575 in 2013 (the most recent year for which I can find reliable data), with some areas of practice earning more (urgent care paid $130,000, on average). You can graduate as a PA at 24 (or 22 if you do a bachelor's program).
.
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I couldn't read past these first few sentences. Avg debt is 60k? AVERAGE for urgent care is 130k? Where'd you get these number? from the new england journal of perineal care?
 
Yadster101 said:
I couldn't read past these first few sentences. Avg debt is 60k? AVERAGE for urgent care is 130k? Where'd you get these number? from the new england journal of perineal care?
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Stop being an ass. That average came from the MGMA and was cited here, but I don't have access to the report because it's behind a paywall. Here's the most recent available data on the average pay of all physician assistants from Merritt Hawkins and Advance that isn't behind their pay walls, both of which peg physician assistant average pay at over 100k:

http://www.merritthawkins.com/uploadedFiles/MerrittHawkings/Surveys/mha2014incensurvey.pdf (118k in 2012/2013, 105k in 2013/2014)
http://nurse-practitioners-and-phys...cles/2013-National-Salary-Survey-Results.aspx ($116,575 for the average male PA)

Keep in mind this is with all specialties included. The more lucrative specialties net substantially more (but Advance has, unfortunately, also hidden their previously publicly available data behind a paywall. EM, derm, and urgent care typically command a 15-20k premium, so 130k is definitely believable of the average dude is making 116.5k). As to the debt, that's easily remedied- the most recent report that was conducted pegged PA student debt at $88,000. Average osteopathic debt around that time was $205,000 while MD debt was $162,000 (it is currently 180k, but I'm going to just leave this as is).

I can re-run the numbers, but they'll look extremely similar. You're probably looking at a break-even point at 45 rather than taking three more years, which really isn't all that astounding. If anyone here has access to the AAPA report (I'm not paying for it), Advance's 2014 salary survey, or MGMA's report by specialty, feel free to add the data to the thread.

At my old hospital, our urgent care and EM PAs started at $55/hr (114.4k at 40 hours/wk) and capped out at $85/hr (176.8k) with experience, and were paid overtime to boot. It made pulling in a 200k salary easy as **** if they were willing to put in the OT. And you also got a 401k match and a pension, which was pretty nice. Given my connections and the ease at which I'd have been hired there as a PA, going to medical school was a terrible decision for me financially, but I'm not doing it for the money.
 
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OP- Consider Anesthesia Assistant - probably makes 80-100k/yr. More direct route than CRNA but you will always needs to be supervised by an anesthesiologist.
 
I saw PA as a suggested option in the fist few posts, so this may be a re-iteration, but PA school is a bad option for someone being dismissed from med school. One would probably not get in with having been dismissed from something in the same field. It's one thing to apply to both med school and PA school and take whichever accepts you if one really wanted to apply to both, but PAs, and especially the adcoms of the programs, don't want their profession to be a back-up for anything, so with having been dismissed, chances for PA have also gone out the door, most likely at every program.

Just my .02, though, so take that with a grain of salt.
 
cde said:
OP- Consider Anesthesia Assistant - probably makes 80-100k/yr. More direct route than CRNA but you will always needs to be supervised by an anesthesiologist.
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AAs usually start around 110-130k, depending on the region, with salaries that cap out around 160-180k, again, depending on region. It kind of sucks, because you're doing CRNA work for sometimes less than CRNA salary, but that's supply and demand in action.
 
Mad Jack said:
Start again? No US school will touch them. Worse still, their residency app will be radioactive due to their prior dismissal if they go Carib or foreign. Dismissal is the end of the line, there is no coming back from it. To continue trying to be a physician would be both impossible and stupid.
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Not true, there are quite a few people on this forum who have been dismissed and have been able to gain acceptance to other medical schools.
 
Eokpar02 said:
Not true, there are quite a few people on this forum who have been dismissed and have been able to gain acceptance to other medical schools.
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Please, provide examples of people dismissed from US medical schools that were later admitted to US medical schools. There's probably like, less than 100 people in the history of medicine that have done so.
 
Mad Jack said:
AAs usually start around 110-130k, depending on the region, with salaries that cap out around 160-180k, again, depending on region. It kind of sucks, because you're doing CRNA work for sometimes less than CRNA salary, but that's supply and demand in action.
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Excuse me, CRNAs have years of additional training and specialization that allow them to understand the nuances of pharmacophysiology and effectively manage acute cases way beyond the capacity of an AA. CRNAs are basically anesthesiologists, but they care more about patient welfare and are better at anesthesiology.

😉
 
Mad Jack said:
Please, provide examples of people dismissed from US medical schools that were later admitted to US medical schools. There's probably like, less than 100 people in the history of medicine that have done so.
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Guero said:
Here's a great thread to read, front to back. It's not over until you say it's over. GL <3
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Not arguing w/<100, but above is an exemplification of an osteopathic student that was dismissed and readmitted. The student later graduated and matched to a residency. ( @Bones DO )
 
Guero said:
Not arguing w/<100, but above is an exemplification of an osteopathic student that was dismissed and readmitted. The student later graduated and matched to a residency. ( @Bones DO )
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It is a very, very rare thing. Not worth throwing your life away for. He'd be more likely to win the lottery.
 
Mad Jack said:
It is a very, very rare thing. Not worth throwing your life away for. He'd be more likely to win the lottery.
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To each their own. Appealing the decision is also a possibility.

To some, like Bones, succeeding in readmission was worth the tenacity. For others, granted many others, it's not. But I wouldn't liken it to "throwing your life away." You could counter that not pursuing readmission is "throwing one's life away" just the same, considering all the blood, sweat, tears, and financial investment that went into being admitted in the first place.
 
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atomi said:
Oh hell no. The only way Healthcare is borderline tolerable as a profession is if you're in the pilots seat and are the one with the knowledge. I can't imagine why anyone who just wants a daily grind chooses Healthcare to do that in. OP, I highly suggest you open your mind up to other industries.
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I appreciate the humor in this post, but it comes off as being a little bit arrogant. NPs, depending on whom, are great to work with. Ive worked with a few neurosurgical and palliative care PAs; obv. the surgery ones aren't in the OR but the palliative care PAs i worked with had their own patients independent of the MDs and there was really no difference. This is def. an option.
 
Psai said:
average gpas don't mean much by themselves. if you're an engineering major, in general you will have a worse gpa than if you're an english major

also where did you get that 30% from? from the new england journal of perineal care?
Click to expand...


In other allied health fields, a low engineering GPA will get compared directly to an English major's GPA by the admissions department.
 
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