Dismissed

[Moddelen]

So I've been dismissed from a Dental School although I'm not quite sure what I should be doing right now. I still have my first appeal although I can't argue my way out of a paper bag. I do have a documented learning disability that I pridefully never informed the school of. I still see it as claiming that I'm damaged goods but for lack of a better solution its shall be my main/only case. Unfortunately I worked as hard as I could although I certainly would feel a lot better about myself if I did slack off.

I'm pretty sure the board that voted on my decision has absolutely no idea who am I and I'm not overly eager to meet with a group of people that want me kicked out. At this point I would guess the best I could hope for is repeating the year although I would like to convince them to at least let me sit on the lectures and practice in the labs (I did pay for the classes after all)

Well I'm not really one for emo and this post does have a point (other then to make pre-dents think twice ).

Probably the most useful thing someone could tell me is what I should put on my AADSAS application for the time I was in dental school. I would guess most re-applicants would NOT put failed out dental school no matter what the circumstances were. Also if anyone had any experience battling the faceless bureaucracy and won I would love to hear some pointers.

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[Yellow Snow]

I would appeal and I would try to do it with dignity and showing forethought. Try and come up with a good argument for why things will be different, should you be given another shot. Did you barely fail out or are we talking about failing more than 3 classes?

Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[dr.rex]

its funny to me when you say did you fail like 3 classes because i am almost sure there are people in our class that have failed more than 3 classes but they are still in school, it is sad

 

[pietrodds]

we had a guy in my class who copied EVERY single answer for the board exam from the girl in front of him and then admitted to it when the confronted him that it was statistically impossible. Did he get kicked out? Hell no, he got himself a lawyer who made up some BS and got his *** off. He had to sit out a year but I think that's crap. I hate to say you're fighting an uphill battle but that's the reality. I had to go before my review board for getting a 69.5% on a midterm even though I had a B overall in the class. They made me sweat it out for three months wondering if I'd move on to third year. Fortunately, the haven't called looking for alumni donations as they'll be sadly disappointed.

 

[Turnerjo13]

I think it is very very difficult to get dismissed here. Thats not to say that it does not happen. I think you need to really tick someone off who has a lot of power or have terrible hand skillz, or seriously harm a patient or not have any ability to communicate. You have to seriously put forth effort into getting dismissed for academic reasons here. The administration knows that if they dismiss someone they will have $35,000 less in the budget from your tuition each of the next few years if your gone. That is incentive for them to keep us around.

 

[beannaithe]

My advice is if you feel like you have no arguement and you think you're not going to be able to make it, GET A LAWYER. At least someone who can represent you and discuss with the school your options.

Honestly, I think you hve a better chance of fighting the dismissal charge that got broguht against you then you do of getting into anoter dental school after a dismissal. Someone somehwere wil find out about it and you run the risk of getting kicked out of school if you lie on your application.

My advice, get the lawyer, go to your first appeal, explain the learning disability, see if they're willing to work with you and at least contemplating letting you start over from day 1.

 

[OceanDMD]

My advice is if you feel like you have no arguement and you think you're not going to be able to make it, GET A LAWYER. At least someone who can represent you and discuss with the school your options.

Honestly, I think you hve a better chance of fighting the dismissal charge that got broguht against you then you do of getting into anoter dental school after a dismissal. Someone somehwere wil find out about it and you run the risk of getting kicked out of school if you lie on your application.

My advice, get the lawyer, go to your first appeal, explain the learning disability, see if they're willing to work with you and at least contemplating letting you start over from day 1.

I can't understand this "get a lawyer" mentality. Everyone gets the same tests, the same time to study, the same requirements. There is a reason why there are standards to get into med/dental school, why its so competitive, and why it takes alot of busting arse to get by. There is a reason why this guy got dismissed, and regardless of his apparent learning disability I cant see why you make excuses or hire a lawyer to make legal excuses. Being a physician or dentist takes life long learning and education. If your learning disability prohibits you from getting through the initial stages of licensing, and performing surgery on human beings, what makes you think you can adapt and do the real learning and education that occurs during practice? I dont mean to sound cold here(I know I am), but there are many professions out there for all types of people, just like there are hundreds of applicants who did not get accepted although this person was not quite truthful with his/her application. "get a lawyer" mentality is a major problem with this society.
Move on, or reapply on your own merrit.

 

[pmantz]

I think it is very very difficult to get dismissed here. Thats not to say that it does not happen. I think you need to really tick someone off who has a lot of power or have terrible hand skillz, or seriously harm a patient or not have any ability to communicate. You have to seriously put forth effort into getting dismissed for academic reasons here. The administration knows that if they dismiss someone they will have $35,000 less in the budget from your tuition each of the next few years if your gone. That is incentive for them to keep us around.

Not really because your school can take an international student and charge them more tuition.

 

[jackbauer!]

I can't understand this "get a lawyer" mentality. Everyone gets the same tests, the same time to study, the same requirements. There is a reason why there are standards to get into med/dental school, why its so competitive, and why it takes alot of busting arse to get by. There is a reason why this guy got dismissed, and regardless of his apparent learning disability I cant see why you make excuses or hire a lawyer to make legal excuses. Being a physician or dentist takes life long learning and education. If your learning disability prohibits you from getting through the initial stages of licensing, and performing surgery on human beings, what makes you think you can adapt and do the real learning and education that occurs during practice? I dont mean to sound cold here(I know I am), but there are many professions out there for all types of people, just like there are hundreds of applicants who did not get accepted although this person was not quite truthful with his/her application. "get a lawyer" mentality is a major problem with this society.
Move on, or reapply on your own merrit.

Agreed There is a total lack of personal responsibility in society today.

jb!

 

[HuyetKiem]

its funny to me when you say did you fail like 3 classes because i am almost sure there are people in our class that have failed more than 3 classes but they are still in school, it is sad

As long as they pass their remediation, they're here to stay. Case is very generous to its students. You should happy for your classmates.

 

[Wayne Coronado]

I think it is very very difficult to get dismissed here. Thats not to say that it does not happen. I think you need to really tick someone off who has a lot of power or have terrible hand skillz, or seriously harm a patient or not have any ability to communicate. You have to seriously put forth effort into getting dismissed for academic reasons here. The administration knows that if they dismiss someone they will have $35,000 less in the budget from your tuition each of the next few years if your gone. That is incentive for them to keep us around.

I believe you would have to punch out a faculty to get kicked out at my school. It is very difficult to get expelled permanently for grades alone. However, at least one per year (except DSIV) got suspended and had to repeat a year. In these cases, I believe that these individuals failed 3 major science courses (micro, path, physio, etc.) before they got their papers. Of course, this situation could be exacerbated depending on what point in the year you failed the last course. In one instance I remember, this guy failed micro at the beginning of the year which halted his d-schooling until the next year. In the interim, he had to complete some remedial courses in order to come back (which he did and re-entered the next class a year behind). In scenario 2, this other guy failed path at the end of the year and had to sit out a complete year in order to remediate and re-entered two classes behind us. To clarify, he was a DSII and failed the last class of that year, so he had to repeat that entire year when he was reinstated. Grant it, it is nobody's fault but theirs if they can't pass the classes, but it would suck a$$ to lose two years instead of just one. Good news is both of these guys have graduated or are still on track to graduate.

 

[Moddelen]

I can't understand this "get a lawyer" mentality. Everyone gets the same tests, the same time to study, the same requirements. There is a reason why there are standards to get into med/dental school, why its so competitive, and why it takes alot of busting arse to get by. There is a reason why this guy got dismissed, and regardless of his apparent learning disability I cant see why you make excuses or hire a lawyer to make legal excuses. Being a physician or dentist takes life long learning and education. If your learning disability prohibits you from getting through the initial stages of licensing, and performing surgery on human beings, what makes you think you can adapt and do the real learning and education that occurs during practice? I dont mean to sound cold here(I know I am), but there are many professions out there for all types of people, just like there are hundreds of applicants who did not get accepted although this person was not quite truthful with his/her application. "get a lawyer" mentality is a major problem with this society.
Move on, or reapply on your own merrit.

Yeah I'm not going to get a lawyer since its not like I was discriminated against. I'm not quite sure I get your "not quite truthful" part though since none of the applications ask if you have a learning disability and students are never forced to register at the disability office. To be honest I've never used anything extra and figured any problems I had were all in the past. Geeze you act like I have downs syndrome or something; its not like my acceptances were hands outs; I had/still have the grades and DAT scores.

In any event; for reapplying I don't want to lie although I personally think writing that I ate cocoa puffs on the couch and had a life consuming world of warcraft obsession would fare better then the 'truth'.

BTW I didn't get 3 F's .... how did someone manage to pass? I believe around here getting 1 F is grounds for having some committee judge if you can move forward.

 

[stdmufin27]

Um, so what were the grounds that the board used to dismiss you?

 

[dr.rex]

happy for my classmates i am sad for the profession...there are some people who I feel are completely incompetent and can barely take care of themselves on a daily basis and this school is goin to let them stick a handpiece spinning at 200,000 rpm or stick a needle in some trusting citizen. it scares me and hopefully these people straighten out over the summer.

 

[Turnerjo13]

Not really because your school can take an international student and charge them more tuition.

Students don't get replaced around here unless it is the five week pre-fall term. We had one student who left half way through fall quarter of our first year and they were not replaced. I got to a school where advanced standing forign dentists are not accepted.

 

[PR Buick]

I hate to say it, but even you've got a "documented" disability, bringing it up after the fact may leave you a day late and a dollar short. Virtually every undergrad professor I've ever had has included a "speak now or forever hold your peace" proviso in their syllabus regarding disability claims. You had to officially file with the university within a fixed time period at the beginning of the course or you were out of luck. I suspect your D-school operates much the same. Best of luck.

 

[gryffindor]

I agree with the posters who said personal responsibility has gone out the door these days. However, as much as lawyers suck, I'd get one to give myself every advantage in a scenario like this. It's just the unfortunately screwy way our society has evolved. We graduated a bunch of shady folks and I had heard of instances where lawyers were used to keep people in school who should have been kicked out. You're going to need a lawyer in practice to keep unscrupulous patients from going after you, might as well make some law friends now.

 

[BirkChick]

happy for my classmates i am sad for the profession...there are some people who I feel are completely incompetent and can barely take care of themselves on a daily basis and this school is goin to let them stick a handpiece spinning at 200,000 rpm or stick a needle in some trusting citizen. it scares me and hopefully these people straighten out over the summer.

You aren't the only one who thinks this! Perhaps Part I will weed some of these people out...

 

[MarkND]

I agree with the posters who said personal responsibility has gone out the door these days. However, as much as lawyers suck, I'd get one to give myself every advantage in a scenario like this. It's just the unfortunately screwy way our society has evolved. We graduated a bunch of shady folks and I had heard of instances where lawyers were used to keep people in school who should have been kicked out. You're going to need a lawyer in practice to keep unscrupulous patients from going after you, might as well make some law friends now.

Ge t yourself a lawyer. Give yourself another chance.

 

[youngmc27]

Doesn't your school have some sort of a remdeial program that they will allow you to take five years to complete the four year degree. If you want to finish use every option available to get back in and through school.

 

[Yellow Snow]

At our school if you fail a class you get a chance to remediate that summer. If you can pass over summer you don't have to miss any time. Your school doesn't have any policies like this?

 

[infernobutterfl]

You should definitely get a lawyer. Not because you have anything to hide or are going against your conscience, but because you are living and dealing with an issue in society. Politics, personal preference, discrimination and many other unknown factors all affect you in this decision, even though the board will swear to high heaven other wise.

Do yourself a favor, get a lawyer. Remember, its a cruel world out there. At least five yourself a fighting chance.

 

[bounty101]

Everybody loves to hate lawyers. That is, until you need a lawyer. Then they're your best friend.
Hire a lawyer.

 

[Yellow Snow]

its funny to me when you say did you fail like 3 classes because i am almost sure there are people in our class that have failed more than 3 classes but they are still in school, it is sad

Hmm...it isn't that easy to fail out of NYU but it is possible. I wonder what you would have to do to get booted at your school? Any examples?

 

[Calculus1]

I hate to say it, but even you've got a "documented" disability, bringing it up after the fact may leave you a day late and a dollar short. Virtually every undergrad professor I've ever had has included a "speak now or forever hold your peace" proviso in their syllabus regarding disability claims. You had to officially file with the university within a fixed time period at the beginning of the course or you were out of luck. I suspect your D-school operates much the same. Best of luck.

If I were you I would totally mention the learning disability. Undergrad is different because money hasn't been spent on the students in the same way as it is in D School. They may make you repeat the year or whatever, but I don't know the circumstances of your dismissal. Just be as apologetic as possible and willing to do whatever they say. Good luck.

 

[pmantz]

I may be totally ignorant but the school takes on quite a lot of liability with every student, there is also an incredible amount of liability that comes into play with a dismisal. Wouldn't a school be overly cautious about dismissing a student , and wouldn't dismiss unless absolutely necessary.

 

[pietrodds]

I think it's BS they'd dismiss you just for putting the bag of flamming poop on the dean's desk.

Most schools that I'm aware of at least give you the opportunity to remediate even if you have to repeat the year. We had multiple students with LD that the school provided assistance to.

 

[smile25]

What have you allegedly done? Are you failing classes? Have you broken an academic ethics policy? Is it just you or are others involved? Does the school have reasonable cause to dismiss you? What school is it? Do your classmates have your back and willing to stick up for you? It isn't a popularity contest but if you have some support in your school that is a great start.

 

[Moddelen]

What have you allegedly done? Are you failing classes? Have you broken an academic ethics policy? Is it just you or are others involved? Does the school have reasonable cause to dismiss you? What school is it? Do your classmates have your back and willing to stick up for you? It isn't a popularity contest but if you have some support in your school that is a great start.

I got a U in a class during one semester and an F in the consecutive semester. I did remediate the U but the combination is still considered a possible cause for dismissal. Technically my work was satisfactory but I took too long to do somethings. I don't quite see how having student support would help other then to perhaps confirm that I spent every day studying; A lot of people thought I was actually gunning for a a specialty

I suppose I have a case to repeat the year as nothing says that I should be dismissed; only that the possibility is there.

 

[UCSF2012]

Your absolute biggest mistake was to not let the school know of your learning disability. If they knew, they have to accomodate to you. That's the law. You'd have more leeway to do poorly on tests, and they're not likely to dismiss you simply because of fear of lawsuits. Since they didn't know, they have no duty to accomodate and you're kinda screwed.

This time around, you kind of have to get a lawyer. This is not a threat to the school. This is your means to make sure they do things within the capacity of the law. It keeps them straight. It prevents them from doing what the law prevents them from doing. He'd know how to handle the learning disability issue.

It's quite possible that you did poorly on tests because you didn't have enough time. If they gave you more time, could you have done better? To pull a D to a C, at minimum?

 

[Calculus1]

I got a U in a class during one semester and an F in the consecutive semester. I did remediate the U but the combination is still considered a possible cause for dismissal. Technically my work was satisfactory but I took too long to do somethings. I don't quite see how having student support would help other then to perhaps confirm that I spent every day studying; A lot of people thought I was actually gunning for a a specialty

I suppose I have a case to repeat the year as nothing says that I should be dismissed; only that the possibility is there.

What classes were they? I know at my school if those are pre-clinical courses that you failed they will dismiss you because you won't be able to handle the rigorous clinical requirements and having a learning disability won't necessarily get you off the hook. Obviously, don't listen to any of the pre-dents on here as they don't have a clue as to what a dental school's commitee will or won't do. They are drawing from 0 experience. Get a lawyer if you think it will help, but I would talk to someone on the faculty first and see what has typically happened to students in your situation before I start going deeper into debt with legal help.

 

[natsipoo]

Be sure to check your school policy before dropping $$$ on a lawyer. In our case, you would be allowed a representative at hearings as long as said representative isn't a lawyer.

 

[shabu2]

Hmm...it isn't that easy to fail out of NYU but it is possible. I wonder what you would have to do to get booted at your school? Any examples?

My cousin graduated form there and her first year they lost over 50 students, and second year another 50 more. That is about 25% of the starting class. But, IMO, generally if you fail more than three classes a year, you don't deserve to be in D school. You have to be a complete slacker to fail three classes. Of course this is a generalization and not always the rule.

 

[servitup]

Am I the only one who thinks people with learning disabilities should choose a profession where learning isn't as crucial to success?

 

[Case2010]

Am I the only one who thinks people with learning disabilities should choose a profession where learning isn't as crucial to success?

The Schools have their own interest as their top priority. Let the schools decide who is and is not accepted and keep your irrelevant opinions to yourself. There are plenty of professionals with learning disabilities. Generally their disability if known is completely manageable and they can do just as well as those without learning disabilities. People generally fail classes for being slackers, having demanding family lives (having children, have to earn a living, ect.), or having had a recent personal tragedy. In this case, slacking is not the issue.

 

[ski.bum]

.

 

[Moddelen]

To the OP, your biggest mistake was indeed not letting them know of your disability. You would be legally entitled to services, and still would be if you chose to get a lawyer. Whether or not your failures can be attributed to your disability is something only you know.

To the person I quoted:

Completely ignorant. The top producer in our clinic for 2008, who blew EVERYONE away in production and quality of work, had a documented learning disability and needed certain services on NBDE and regular in class tests. His clinical work is of a caliber that professors pretty much gave him free reign instead of subjecting him to the hoops everyone else jumps through. Your statement is incorrect, to say the very least.

Any chance you know what that person had?

As for my failures they were both cases of lack of time rather then knowledge/ability but I don't know how a lawyer would help matters (other then to just piss off the school). I'm unsure if telling the school would have been a good idea since I never used anything extra before. I felt that if my undergrad GPA and DAT were both done without special accommodations then it would be an unfair advantage if I abused a potential misdiagnosis.

 

[servitup]

I don't mean to offend anyone but I believe we as doctors should be held to the highest educational standards, period. Best of luck to the OP in the future.

 

[WesternBoundDMD]

"As long as they pass their remediation, they're here to stay. Case is very generous to its students. You should happy for your classmates." -HuyetKiem

Tell that to your classmate (Dave) still stuck in clinic. Did you know he wasn't allowed at graduation, had his picture and name removed from the Class of 2008....yeah, real nice people at Case. Talked to him yesterday and he still doesn't know if or when he is going to graduate. What did he do wrong again? And exactly how were they generous with him?

Case takes no responsibility for student failures, all the credit for their successes, and could honestly care less how they go about furthering their own careers.
thumbdown

 

[Lidopaine82]

"As long as they pass their remediation, they're here to stay. Case is very generous to its students. You should happy for your classmates." -HuyetKiem

Tell that to your classmate (Dave) still stuck in clinic. Did you know he wasn't allowed at graduation, had his picture and name removed from the Class of 2008....yeah, real nice people at Case. Talked to him yesterday and he still doesn't know if or when he is going to graduate. What did he do wrong again? And exactly how were they generous with him?

Case takes no responsibility for student failures, all the credit for their successes, and could honestly care less how they go about furthering their own careers.
thumbdown

Most of your statements are generalizations that can be made of most schools. From what I hear, Duke went out of his way to be a jerk. karma. It's not to much to ask to play the game a little.

 

[HuyetKiem]

"As long as they pass their remediation, they're here to stay. Case is very generous to its students. You should happy for your classmates." -HuyetKiem

Tell that to your classmate (Dave) still stuck in clinic. Did you know he wasn't allowed at graduation, had his picture and name removed from the Class of 2008....yeah, real nice people at Case. Talked to him yesterday and he still doesn't know if or when he is going to graduate. What did he do wrong again? And exactly how were they generous with him?

Case takes no responsibility for student failures, all the credit for their successes, and could honestly care less how they go about furthering their own careers.
thumbdown

Well, 10 other people were allowed to graduate without passing prostho requirements. or that was just a rumor. I have to ask dr. Love for that.

 

[Boopieness]

You need an attorney ASAP.

Secondly, you need to get reevaluated for your learning disability, so that you have current documentation, so that your attorney can adequately represent you.

Lastly, you need accomodations. If you need to have double time on your written exams/boards or whatever - you need to have the evaluation to get what you need to pass the second time around.

This works.
You can do it, you just need to be upfront with your disability from now on and ask for the accomodations that you need to help you.

The hardest thing that you will need to learn from this experience is, that at this level of education, you need to learn to reach out and ask for help when you need it. Hiding things is not the mark of a professional. You did it before, own up to the fact. YOU HAVE A DISABILITY. Do not even think of applying again, because #1 you are looking to hide that you were thrown out. #2 You are again not going to be upfront about your disability when applying to another school.

You have it, it will never go away. This is how you deal with it. You are in absolute denial if you think this won't happen again at another school. You just need accomodations and another chance.

Nothing scares a professional school more into helping you to get where you need to be in your academics then an attorney. The mere mention of an attorney will preemptively get them to seek out and help you gain the academic help you need, rather then toss you out.

The whole point of an appeal is due process. That is what an attorney is for, don't be foolish and do this by yourself.

If you do not get an attorney, I guarantee you, you can kiss this career goodbye!

This is not undergrad, you need to stand up for yourself, take responsibility, be open about your disability now and learn how to ask for help.

You need that attorney. Learning disabilities are covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

You asked for pointers from someone who knows, take the advice.

 

[servitup]

If Learning disabilities give you the right to special accomodations in school, they should also force you to tell your patients you have one and give them a fair chance to decide who they would rather be treated by. That would only be fair, don't you think?

 

[Case2010]

That would only be fair, don't you think?

The question is, do you think, before you open your pie hole?

 

[servitup]

2 words, informed consent. Flame away.

 

[helpfuldoc2b]

Any chance you know what that person had?

As for my failures they were both cases of lack of time rather then knowledge/ability but I don't know how a lawyer would help matters (other then to just piss off the school). I'm unsure if telling the school would have been a good idea since I never used anything extra before. I felt that if my undergrad GPA and DAT were both done without special accommodations then it would be an unfair advantage if I abused a potential misdiagnosis.

I am curious, what is the disability? Depression? ADHD, Bipolar or what?

 

[capisce?]

2 words, informed consent. Flame away.

you're post makes no sense

 

[VilleDent]

If Learning disabilities give you the right to special accomodations in school, they should also force you to tell your patients you have one and give them a fair chance to decide who they would rather be treated by. That would only be fair, don't you think?

Very nice rebuttal. You got me thinking on that one...and you present a very good argument.

And while I agree that students with learning disabilities should be given special circumstances (extra time with tests, projects, etc.), I do disagree with the statement that they should be given more leeway with the grades. You either know what branches of V3 or you don't. You can either do a proximal box without drilling adjacent teeth or you can't. No arguments. The patient won't care if you are depressed, lonely, ADD, or suicidal when you hit their pulp.

DMD shouldn't be free just because a student does have a learning disability.

 

[servitup]

you're post makes no sense

Neither does "you're"s. Most disabilities are readily apparent to the average person. For example, if I am looking for a track coach, I would notice if one of the applicants had no legs. That may help me make the best choice for my coach. Likewise, I think if you have a documented learning disability that it would be prudent to tell prospective patients about it. Personally, I don't really care to be treated by a "doctor" who has a "disability" which affects learning in a profession where lifelong learning is paramount to providing top-level care. My 2 cents.

 

[ItsGavinC]

2 words, informed consent. Flame away.

Informed consent is the patient consenting to the procedure and its associated risks and benefits (as well as acknowledgement of alternatives and their risks and benefits). It has nothing to do with the ability of the operator.