Disturbing Trend

[seanjohn]

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If you study that table closely you will see several things: (1) Asians have more education than the other groups on average, and (2) Many are foreign born. It's difficult to draw conclusions from that table, but I would think the Asians who immigrate to the US tend to come from more affluent/highly educated families (on average, simply because the cost of relocation across the ocean is likely to be high). Some come here to get jobs in the research and science sector of our economy...it may be a self-selecting group of individuals, because they will choose to come here only if there is a job available to them and if they can get a visa. Again, I don't know any of this for sure, because I imagine there are a variety of conclusions you can draw depending on your beliefs. I would not, however, use that table to prove that blacks/hispanics are lazy and asians hardworking, as you just did.

Well maybe if the disgusting hip-hop culture was eliminated, many young black children could find role models in doctors, lawyers, or businessmen instead of in drug dealing gangsters. Just a thought.

 

[gcomplex7]

Look how well the Asians are doing, once again. The Asians that live in Canada also do extremely well. A few of my asian classmates in high school were new immigrants who barely spoke any english, and I can assure you they weren't very well off. They still managed to do exceptionally well in school, get into great universities, and master the english language in a few short years. There's no excuse for being lazy. Generally speaking, Asians are a prime example of citizens who are hardworking, successful, and accomplished, and this is all done without the help of racist policies such as affirmative action. The black and hispanic population should REALLY learn from the Asians. If they can do it, there's no reason why they can't.

Wow, I read all your posts and while you firmly have your opinion (which is good). You are so so IGNORANT.

Here is an advise, when you find out exactly how things work then ask yourself, why.

And goodluck finding the smartest doc. with the great scores that got into medical school on his own accords, can you say empathy, patient interaction or clinical skills.

 

[seanjohn]

Wow, I read all your posts and while you firmly have your opinion (which is good). You are so so IGNORANT.

Here is an advise, when you find out exactly how things work then ask yourself, why.

And goodluck finding the smartest doc. with the great scores that got into medical school on his own accords, can you say empathy, patient interaction or clinical skills.

"Here is an advise"

Wow, your english skills are clearly lacking, please go back to school.

 

[seanjohn]

Anyways, I think I'm done arguing with ignorant Americans about the inherent racism present in their educational system, clearly most of you are too *****ic to pick up on the fact that choosing a candidate based solely on their race or ethnicity is racist by definition.

Most people around the world view Americans as uneducated *****s. While I disagree with that stereotype, it's becoming increasingly difficult to defend you guys when most of you post such ignorant drivel.

Good luck living in your American bubble. 👍

 

[gcomplex7]

"Here is an advise"

Wow, your english skills are clearly lacking, please go back to school.

As I thought, taking the easy way out.

Okay, goodbye to this thread.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Anyways, I think I'm done arguing with ignorant Americans about the inherent racism present in their educational system, clearly most of you are too *****ic to pick up on the fact that choosing a candidate based solely on their race or ethnicity is racist by definition.

Most people around the world view Americans as uneducated *****s. While I disagree with that stereotype, it's becoming increasingly difficult to defend you guys when most of you post such ignorant drivel.

Good luck living in your American bubble. 👍

Haha that's right, go back from whence you came! Silly Canuck.

I think a large number of people have posted entirely reasonable, sensible arguments in this thread, amazingly so for such a controversial topic. Whether or not you choose to listen to them is entirely up to you, though I would hope that even as a Canadian you would understand the irony of talking about others' "ignorant drivel" while you ignore perfectly good posts and talk about things which clearly you do not comprehend nor wish to enlighten yourself about.

 

[Elastase]

Well maybe if the disgusting hip-hop culture was eliminated, many young black children could find role models in doctors, lawyers, or businessmen instead of in drug dealing gangsters. Just a thought.

P. Diddy just dissed tha hip hop!

Thats where diversity comes into play mayn. If we didn't have the hip hop then life would be dull. Don't mess with ppls culture, it just needs to be more positive (there IS some positive hip hop)...Thats why we need diversity with med school classes, patients will relate to you (be more open) if they know that your down with their culture...

 

[seanjohn]

Haha that's right, go back from whence you came! Silly Canuck.

I think a large number of people have posted entirely reasonable, sensible arguments in this thread, amazingly so for such a controversial topic. Whether or not you choose to listen to them is entirely up to you, though I would hope that even as a Canadian you would understand the irony of talking about others' "ignorant drivel" while you ignore perfectly good posts and talk about things which clearly you do not comprehend nor wish to enlighten yourself about.

Even as a Canadian I understand more about your educational system than you do. I probably know more American history than you as well. While you and most other Americans are too ignorant about the rest of the world to even know the active Prime Minister of one of your neighbouring countries, most other people around the world would be able to name every single US president you ever had, in order, and name all 50 states. Do you even know who the Prime Minister of Canada is? Do you know how many provinces and territories we have? That's what I thought, now pipe down simpleton, although your ignorance truly is entertaining.

 

[seanjohn]

P. Diddy just dissed tha hip hop!

Thats where diversity comes into play mayn. If we didn't have the hip hop then life would be dull. Don't mess with ppls culture, it just needs to be more positive (there IS some positive hip hop)...Thats why we need diversity with med school classes, patients will relate to you (be more open) if they know that your down with their culture...

I disagree, life would not be dull without hip-hop, but there would probably be less crime as a result.

I'm from Toronto, which is the most ethnically and racially diverse city in the entire world, so I know a thing or two about diversity.

 

[anystream]

Do you even know who the Prime Minister of Canada is?

yea...because that's exactly what this thread is about. 😴

 

[seanjohn]

yea...because that's exactly what this thread is about. 😴

Can any American name the active Canadian Prime Minister? Sure it's off-topic, but nonetheless, it's interesting to see the ignorance of my neighbours to the south.

 

[Wolfgang12345]

Can any American name the active Canadian Prime Minister? Sure it's off-topic, but nonetheless, it's interesting to see the ignorance of my neighbours to the south.

I hate to get embroiled in this, but I couldn't resist. Stephen Harper:

Prime Minister of Canada

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Even as a Canadian I understand more about your educational system than you do. I probably know more American history than you as well. While you and most other Americans are too ignorant about the rest of the world to even know the active Prime Minister of one of your neighbouring countries, most other people around the world would be able to name every single US president you ever had, in order, and name all 50 states. Do you even know who the Prime Minister of Canada is? Do you know how many provinces and territories we have? That's what I thought, now pipe down simpleton, although your ignorance truly is entertaining.

Dude, do you ever have any constructive comments, or do you just talk smack and call people names all day?

You have absolutely no basis in saying you know more about our educational system or history than I do, since you don't even know me. And while I doubt that most people know our Presidents in order or all 50 states/capitals, even if they did, it would hardly be relevant to this discussion. Though I will admit I don't know who the Prime Minister of Canada is, I figure I'll be able to make it through life without that information.

Also, the movie Canadian Bacon is hilarious. All Americans and Canadians should watch it.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Can any American name the active Canadian Prime Minister? Sure it's off-topic, but nonetheless, it's interesting to see the ignorance of my neighbours to the south.

Also, didn't you leave like 5 posts ago? Or were you just getting our hopes up? 😉

 

[nvshelat]

I disagree, life would not be dull without hip-hop, but there would probably be less crime as a result.

I'm from Toronto, which is the most ethnically and racially diverse city in the entire world, so I know a thing or two about diversity.

LOL this is the funniest thing I've ever read in my life. Yes, your honor. Puffy made me do it, I swear.

 

[GasGuy2010]

SeanJohn.

You were just able to make everyone on both sides of this discussion come together and agree to one thing: NO ONE wants you around for this discussion, so just leave. You have no rational arguements and your attempts at making a point are just frivolous personal attacks. Just leave so the rest of us can have an educated discussion.

 

[butmylipshurtrealbad]

...or Tom Cruise?

Can any American name the active Canadian Prime Minister? Sure it's off-topic, but nonetheless, it's interesting to see the ignorance of my neighbours to the south.

 

[seanjohn]

...or Tom Cruise?

Ah yes, Tom Cruise, the beloved American Scientologist.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

Oh yes, since Tom Cruise is SOOO representative of the US. I must say, Canadians make pretty good actors. Alan Alda, Mike Myers, Dan Aykroyd...

But, it wasn't OUR fault your hockey team didn't win anything in the Olympics, so stop venting your frustrations on us (U.S., hehe).

 

[mjc48]

I come from a first generation Italian immigrant family(father is bilingual, uncle and aunts, grandparents previously noncitizens), and I also do not get URM status. Heck, I was the first to be born a natural citizen. What's the deal with that?

similar situation, first gen italian on one side, second on the other, one parent with technical high school ed, the other with a GED...not exactly a rich history of social priviledge, but right into the majority i go

 

[seanjohn]

Oh yes, since Tom Cruise is SOOO representative of the US. I must say, Canadians make pretty good actors. Alan Alda, Mike Myers, Dan Aykroyd...

But, it wasn't OUR fault your hockey team didn't win anything in the Olympics, so stop venting your frustrations on us (U.S., hehe).

You forgot Jim Carrey. Look, I don't have anything against Americans...your president is a ***** that can't speak english very well, but aside from that I think Americans are down to earth, good people, just like anyone else. Sure you guys can be arrogant, rude, and ignorant of the world outside the US, but I won't hold that againt you.

Just remember that at the end of the day we're still neighbours, we may have our differences and our quarrels, but we still love you guys deep down, and you guys love us. We'll still support you guys if you attack Iran, don't worry. 👍 🙂

 

[Hercules022]

A quick survey of mdapplicants.com effectively substantiates the claim that being a URM gives a huge boost to an applicant's odds of gaining acceptance to a school. I recall following the Michigan law school AA case closely several years ago when the Sup. Ct. narrowly upheld AA, and a substantial number of the URM applicants admitted had LSAT scores in the low to mid 150's, while Michigan's average is (as I recall) somewhere in the upper 160's. Since the test is scored on a scale of 120 to 180, that's a pretty big gap. Anyone with half a brain knows that a white applicant to Mich Law with a 155 on the LSAT would be laughed out the door.

So if you look on mdapplicants for a while, you'll be able to find white or asian applicants with average stats and whose list of schools accepted to is something like "Virginia Commonwealth, NYMC, Yale," and you'd probably think "How did that guy get into Yale?" But when you find a URM with average stats and the list of schools is, "Yale, Hopkins, Cornell..." it's pretty obvious why that person is getting into those schools. Anyone can sneak into one good school with avg. stats or subpar stats, but a pattern of disagreement between stats and acceptances suggests something else (hint: it's two words and they both start with 'a') is playing a factor.

Supporters of AA can argue till they are blue in the face, but a lot of people will always view it as exactly what it is: a huge advantage when it is supposed to a tiny bit of help.

 

[seanjohn]

A quick survey of mdapplicants.com effectively substantiates the claim that being a URM gives a huge boost to an applicant's odds of gaining acceptance to a school. I recall following the Michigan law school AA case closely several years ago when the Sup. Ct. narrowly upheld AA, and a substantial number of the URM applicants admitted had LSAT scores in the low to mid 150's, while Michigan's average is (as I recall) somewhere in the upper 160's. Since the test is scored on a scale of 120 to 180, that's a pretty big gap. Anyone with half a brain knows that a white applicant to Mich Law with a 155 on the LSAT would be laughed out the door.

So if you look on mdapplicants for a while, you'll be able to find white or asian applicants with average stats and whose list of schools accepted to is something like "Virginia Commonwealth, NYMC, Yale," and you'd probably think "How did that guy get into Yale?" But when you find a URM with average stats and the list of schools is, "Yale, Hopkins, Cornell..." it's pretty obvious why that person is getting into those schools. Anyone can sneak into one good school with avg. stats or subpar stats, but a pattern of disagreement between stats and acceptances suggests something else (hint: it's two words and they both start with 'a') is playing a factor.

Supporters of AA can argue till they are blue in the face, but a lot of people will always view it as exactly what it is: a huge advantage when it is supposed to a tiny bit of help.

Beautiful post! That just about sums up everything.

 

[infiniti]

Laser for example, has been utilized in dermatology for quite some time. People of color however (including people of south Asian descent since they often have darker skin tones) often suffered from serious side effects. In many instances, their skin turns out worse than it was before they visited dermatologists. Now, when you see advertisement for procedures including lasers, you don’t hear “this is only recommended for Caucasians”. It only took a few decades before URM physicians and other colleagues that are interested in minority populations finally found a way to get “color blind lasers”. People of color are misdiagnosed by dermatologists (mostly white and Asians) at an alarming rate (because they often lack experience with such skin types and conditions). It often takes physicians of color very little time to get the right diagnosis. After a very long time, institutions finally noticed this, and are consequently opening centers for ethnic skin. As it turns out, race is of utmost importance in medicine (it shouldn’t have to be, but it is).

I chose this example because it is far removed from the “minorities serve medicine by practicing in poor neighborhoods blah blah blah” cry I often hear on this site. Majority of URM doctors do indeed practice in minority neighborhoods. But, you do have to be rather stupid to think that practicing in minority neighborhoods is the only way to serve minority populations. How many times have drugs marked for “general population” had detrimental effects on minority populations. How many times have drug studies targeting “Americans” failed to include URM’s. Not surprisingly, most studies focusing on minority health in this country are authored and inspired by URM’s or other scientists focusing on minority population. Every aspect of medicine needs serious improvement when it comes to minority health and URM’s (and others that are interested) will do better to go beyond practicing in “minority neighborhoods (what the heck does this mean anyway)”. AA (at the medical level) is far deeper than who gets into medical school. One of the goals of AA in the medical education is to improve the health of underrepresented members of our society. This means infiltration at every single imaginable aspect of medicine. You will certainly be seeing more of this as you progress with your medical education.

We often get lost in the admissions process. Health is the goal here people and there is no denial that race is involved with that. SDN often repeats a few arguments involving minority health. There are so many instances when URM’s are getting the shaft of American medicine. People will do much better knowing more about these topics.

 

[nvshelat]

Supporters of AA can argue till they are blue in the face, but a lot of people will always view it as exactly what it is: a huge advantage when it is supposed to a tiny bit of help.

I have an idea - let's get all the white people together and put them in an all black neighboorhood. For 18 years of their life. Have people throw fried chicken at them and call them names. See people cross the other side of the street because of their skin color. Have people burning churches while others pretend racism doesn't exist.
Then tell them that even though they endured all of this, they scored a couple points less on a dumb test that doesn't accurately predict how well they'll do as a doctor, and because of that, they can't get into medical school.

Theres only one way to balance out the unbalanced seesaw.

 

[WholeLottaGame7]

A quick survey of mdapplicants.com effectively substantiates the claim that being a URM gives a huge boost to an applicant's odds of gaining acceptance to a school. I recall following the Michigan law school AA case closely several years ago when the Sup. Ct. narrowly upheld AA, and a substantial number of the URM applicants admitted had LSAT scores in the low to mid 150's, while Michigan's average is (as I recall) somewhere in the upper 160's. Since the test is scored on a scale of 120 to 180, that's a pretty big gap. Anyone with half a brain knows that a white applicant to Mich Law with a 155 on the LSAT would be laughed out the door.

So if you look on mdapplicants for a while, you'll be able to find white or asian applicants with average stats and whose list of schools accepted to is something like "Virginia Commonwealth, NYMC, Yale," and you'd probably think "How did that guy get into Yale?" But when you find a URM with average stats and the list of schools is, "Yale, Hopkins, Cornell..." it's pretty obvious why that person is getting into those schools. Anyone can sneak into one good school with avg. stats or subpar stats, but a pattern of disagreement between stats and acceptances suggests something else (hint: it's two words and they both start with 'a') is playing a factor.

Supporters of AA can argue till they are blue in the face, but a lot of people will always view it as exactly what it is: a huge advantage when it is supposed to a tiny bit of help.

No one's trying to claim that AA isn't helping students get into medical schools. After all, that's kind of the point. It's not like they are being secretive about it. The discussion is more about WHY they are doing it. It seems to be the biggest argument people have against AA is that "it's taking a spot away from a more deserving" candidate. Yet, you don't see hordes of URMs dropping out of medical school. If URMs couldn't cut it as doctors, don't you think something would show that? And by the way, MCAT/GPA don't tell you anything about how good a doctor you will be.

 

[deplane]

AA = Racism. PERIOD!!! I don't give what color my doc is. Do you? There are hundreds of people who grew up disadvantaged but can't use the URM status. Thats bull crap. They are the ones hurt most by AA. Most URM aren't disadvantaged. They come from middle to upper class families.

I think you might mean minorities in general, which according to AAMC, doesn't mean URM.

From premedofcolor.org

Just like the word "love," we've tossed around the URM term so much that it's lost its meaning. So the AAMC has changed it's definition, and that's what we have to go by and accept. Until you get into medical school, finish, and come back to single-handedly (or with a few friends) change what all medical schools are looking for, or until those in power decide to change it themselves, this is what stands, like it or not. We can complain until we're blue in the face but we are peons in this process. Accept it, as many people have said, and move on.

And FYI, there are MANY people who care about the color of their doctor's skin and sex, from EVERY single race, sex, and socioeconomic class, age group, etc. Some women would rather have female doctors because hey, she's got the same things down there as me. A black senior may be looking at a white doctor and say, what the hell does this doctor know about me? How is s/he going to relate to me? Is he judging me? Because we do judge people. And sometimes we disregard their situation because of those judgements. I went to an AMSA meeting where a doctor who works with primarily LGBTQ patients talked about how oftentimes, patients are not asked about their sexual orientation but instead are assumed to be heterosexual. A conversation may go like so:
D:"Are you sexually active?"
P:"Yes."
D:"Are you using any sort of birth control?"
P:"No."
D:"Would you like to get pregnant?"
P:"No."
And then the doctor proceeds to launch into her about her wreckless behavior in regards to contraception, but in truth, the whole conversation could have been avoided had s/he just asked about whether the patient had sex with men, women, or both. On Discovery Health Channel (On "I Lost It!"), there was a black woman who had fibroid tumors. She went to her doctor and instead of him taking a look at her, he said "You are sooooo fat. You need to lose some weight." That kind of experience is what keeps people from trying to seek medical attention! There are so many minorities who refuse to go to doctors because "they're not like me. They don't understand me." And you know what? They don't. We feel comfortable with what we know. Those of us who are able to free our minds, are very fortunate to expose ourselves to new people and things. But we shouldn't punish or force those who aren't quite there yet. Seeing minorities in these positions also gives hope to those kids who thought the only way they could get anywhere was if they got a record deal or went to play for the NBA. They need these role models just as much as they need the healthcare.

Some people can't get past the fact that an MD is an MD, and they shouldn't have to. We have to make sure that we represent those we are trying to serve, and that we give them not only what they need, but what THEY feel they need to feel that they are truly being cared for.

 

[Hercules022]

I have an idea - let's get all the white people together and put them in an all black neighboorhood. For 18 years of their life. Have people throw fried chicken at them and call them names. See people cross the other side of the street because of their skin color. Have people burning churches while others pretend racism doesn't exist. Then tell them that even though they endured all of this, they scored a couple points less on a dumb test that doesn't accurately predict how well they'll do as a doctor, and because of that, they can't get into medical school.

Theres only one way to balance out the unbalanced seesaw.

Glad to see you responded to my post with a) a hypothetical and sensational scenario (since I'm sure all URM's are from the ghetto! oh no!). And then followed it up by suggesting, foolishly, that the MCAT is a "dumb test" so we need to circumvent it by helping out URM's. If the MCAT isn't predictive of ability in med school then it needs to be changed for all applicants, but that is another debate for another thread.

I hope all future posters who respond to my post realize that I based my argument on data from the Mich Law case and a consistent pattern on mdapps. Those who simply reply with posts about URM's having "fried chicken thrown at them" are trying to return the argument to an emotional or irrational level, where no one can win one way or the other. A wise choice for AA supporters

 

[Thundrstorm]

Must. Not. Respond. To. the. Ignorance.




But If I see one more post about Asians as the model minority, the laziness of blacks, or an extrapolation based on someone's token friend who got into Harvard with a 2.0, I'm going to have to say something. Even though it's all been said before and won't particularly matter anyway.

 

[autoimmunity]

Is there anyway to get information on:

1) Whether or not URMs are struggling in medical school or leaving?
2) Whether or not URMs actually serve their own disadvantaged communities?

Just curious. I think info on these might help with this whole debate.

 

[Hercules022]

No one's trying to claim that AA isn't helping students get into medical schools. After all, that's kind of the point. It's not like they are being secretive about it. The discussion is more about WHY they are doing it. It seems to be the biggest argument people have against AA is that "it's taking a spot away from a more deserving" candidate. Yet, you don't see hordes of URMs dropping out of medical school. If URMs couldn't cut it as doctors, don't you think something would show that? And by the way, MCAT/GPA don't tell you anything about how good a doctor you will be.

I don't care why we're doing it, I'm saying (as are others) that it helps way too much for there to be any good reason. I think the main issue is the degree of help the students get. I argued (convincingly) that they get way too much.

 

[Thundrstorm]

I don't care why we're doing it, I'm saying (as are others) that it helps way too much for there to be any good reason. I think the main issue is the degree of help the students get. I argued (convincingly) that they get way too much.

You deem your argument convincing because you convinced yourself?

 

[gcomplex7]

Dude, no one is saying being a URM doesn’t help but also it depends on how you view it. Two candidates with equal stats, yes the URM kid might be favored but why?
Perhaps if you walked around in his shoes for a day you will get it. You probably won’t even be thinking about going to med. sch. It speaks much of character than anything else.
I can’t pretend to know how you guys might feel about this but I assure you, most of you guys can’t walk in the shoes and be where you are today.

I admit the system is flawed, considering the other post of being first generation Italian and the SES stuff. I know some of my URM friends that say it is wrong to sort of affirm the inferiority complex by lowering standards but you must understand the rational reason why things are done this way.

And seanjohn, you sound bitter. Try some hip-hop music…

NOW I AM LEAVING!

 

[GasGuy2010]

Did we figure out what EXACTLY are the reasons it is done this way when socioeconomics is not factored in?

Dude, no one is saying being a URM doesn’t help but also it depends on how you view it. Two candidates with equal stats, yes the URM kid might be favored but why?
Perhaps if you walked around in his shoes for a day you will get it. You probably won’t even be thinking about going to med. sch. It speaks much of character than anything else.
I can’t pretend to know how you guys might feel about this but I assure you, most of you guys can’t walk in the shoes and be where you are today.

I admit the system is flawed, considering the other post of being first generation Italian and the SES stuff. I know some of my URM friends that say it is wrong to sort of affirm the inferiority complex by lowering standards but you must understand the rational reason why things are done this way.

And seanjohn, you sound bitter. Try some hip-hop music…

NOW I AM LEAVING!

 

[abj]

I don't care why we're doing it, I'm saying (as are others) that it helps way too much for there to be any good reason. I think the main issue is the degree of help the students get. I argued (convincingly) that they get way too much.

You haven't argued anything about the help being too much. All you have cited is examples of where the system is helping out URM's. Now, if you were able to cite the actual percentages of URM's in medicine (and show that URM's are present in medicine in greater ratios than they should be in), that would suggest the system is overly biased to URM's. But you haven't.

I wouldn't be surprised that Whites and Asians are overly represented in medicine, well beyond the ratios of whites and asians to the total US population, hence their non-URM status.

 

[MarzMD]

Dont know if this has been mentioned before, but does anyone have stats on the GPA and mcat averages of african americans that do not attend an HBCU? It seems to me that a good chunk do attend these medical schools, so I wonder if the numbers would be a little higher if you did not include the HBCU's. Even though I think the "taking spots" argument is invalid, I think quoting those stats would be more accurate when making that argument.

 

[tkdusb]

In before the lock and bans!

 

[Law2Doc]

In before the lock and bans!

Could be any time now.

 

[autoimmunity]

You haven't argued anything about the help being too much. All you have cited is examples of where the system is helping out URM's. Now, if you were able to cite the actual percentages of URM's in medicine (and show that URM's are present in medicine in greater ratios than they should be in), that would suggest the system is overly biased to URM's. But you haven't.

I wouldn't be surprised that Whites and Asians are overly represented in medicine, well beyond the ratios of whites and asians to the total US population, hence their non-URM status.

I don't seem to understand why minority representation in the medical field should absolutely mirror that of society unless there is concrete evidence proving its benefits.

Furthermore, your argument seems to ring like: "There are just too many of you asians and whites, so too bad."

 

[DrLizzie]

If I don't get accepted to medical school, I can't blame it on "URM's" because I'm not applying to the US. I only applied to Canadian medical and dental schools where we don't have such racist policies such as affirmative action. With that said, if I were to live in the US I would definately seek a physician who is competent and deserved to get into medical school based on their academic merits, and not on their skin tone.

The fact that you make assumptions about others that you don't know, and call others names, shows how mature you are, and shows how insecure you are because you can only resort to personal attacks when your weak argument is backed into a corner.

If I were to live in the US, I would certainly not pick a minority to be my physician, not because of their skin tone, but because I know that they're less qualified than their white and asian counterparts who actually earned their grades, and earned their spot in medical school based on their knowledge, hard work, personality etc., and as a result, are probably much more competent physicians.

I just started reading this thread and there seem to be many good and very bad statements made about URMs, and the whole application process. Seanjohn: you wrote previously that you would not see a physican that was a minority, because (according to you) the only reason why they currently are working as physicans are because of their race? Why would you assume that EVERY physican that happens to also be a minority did not deserve to be in medical school. Are you saying that EVERY URM's ONLY GOT IN BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE? That is a pretty ignorant statement/assumption to make.

 

[seanjohn]

I just started reading this thread and there seem to be many good and very bad statements made about URMs, and the whole application process. Seanjohn: you wrote previously that you would not see a physican that was a minority, because (according to you) the only reason why they currently are working as physicans are because of their race? Why would you assume that EVERY physican that happens to also be a minority did not deserve to be in medical school. Are you saying that EVERY URM's ONLY GOT IN BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE? That is a pretty ignorant statement/assumption to make.

Lizzie, I'm glad you brought that up. I have a very good reason for what I said, and I'll tell you why. In Canada, where I'm from, I have absolutely no qualms about visiting a black, hispanic, white, asian, or purple physician, do you know why? No? The reason is because in Canada we have no affirmative action! We don't have a racist system like you guys do in the US! Therefore, I KNOW that ANY physician that graduates from a Canadian medical school deserved to be there in the first place, is a competent physician, and did not get in based on his/her race or ethnicity! In Canada, candidates for professional school are evaluated based on their academic credentials, personality etc., but NOT based on their race, or ethnicity. The same can't be said about minority physicians in the US. If I were an American citizen seeking a physician, how am I to know whether or not that black doctor got in because he deserved to, or if he got in solely because of the colour of his skin?

And with that, the ignorance of this thread *should* end, although it most likely won't. 🙂

 

[ladyballa1492]

Dont know if this has been mentioned before, but does anyone have stats on the GPA and mcat averages of african americans that do not attend an HBCU? It seems to me that a good chunk do attend these medical schools, so I wonder if the numbers would be a little higher if you did not include the HBCU's. Even though I think the "taking spots" argument is invalid, I think quoting those stats would be more accurate when making that argument.

EXCELLENT POINT. According to Iserson's Getting Into Residency:
The number of black physicians has not changed much over the past 70 years. There are only 50 doctors per 100,000 blacks in America. Of these doctors, 25% GRADUATED FROM EITHER HOWARD, MEHARRY, OR MOREHOUSE.

That's only 3 med. schools people. Let's face it, Howard is not Harvard (no offense), so perhaps the numbers (gpas, mcats) are a bit skewed as the poster mentioned above. If you took the stats of minorities that go to the top 20 schools, i don't think that the disparity in grades between urm's and the whites would be particularly significant. As a URM who went to an Ivy League school, I am led to believe that in 2005 no urms from my institution who got into harvard and other top schools had less than a 34 mcat. and many of them were able to claim disadvantaged status.

 

[MissMD'10]

Lizzie, I'm glad you brought that up. I have a very good reason for what I said, and I'll tell you why. In Canada, where I'm from, I have absolutely no qualms about visiting a black, hispanic, white, asian, or purple physician, do you know why? No? The reason is because in Canada we have no affirmative action! We don't have a racist system like you guys do in the US! Therefore, I KNOW that ANY physician that graduates from a Canadian medical school deserved to be there in the first place, is a competent physician, and did not get in based on his/her race or ethnicity! The same can't be said about minority physicians in the US. If I were an American citizen seeking a physician, how am I to know whether or not that black doctor got in because he deserved to, or if he got in solely because of the colour of his skin?

And with that, the ignorance of this thread *should* end, although it most likely won't. 🙂

you are very, very ignorant. Minorities who get into med school here deserve to be there much more than someone like you. I am for AA, just very jealous of my friends who are getting such a better reception than I have this cycle.

 

[autoimmunity]

Lizzie, I'm glad you brought that up. I have a very good reason for what I said, and I'll tell you why. In Canada, where I'm from, I have absolutely no qualms about visiting a black, hispanic, white, asian, or purple physician, do you know why? No? The reason is because in Canada we have no affirmative action! We don't have a racist system like you guys do in the US! Therefore, I KNOW that ANY physician that graduates from a Canadian medical school deserved to be there in the first place, is a competent physician, and did not get in based on his/her race or ethnicity! The same can't be said about minority physicians in the US. If I were an American citizen seeking a physician, how am I to know whether or not that black doctor got in because he deserved to, or if he got in solely because of the colour of his skin?

And with that, the ignorance of this thread *should* end, although it most likely won't. 🙂

SeanJohn, from one Canuck to another, let's try not to be so inciting. And please don't try to speak as though you are the lone representative of Canada.

 

[seanjohn]

you are very, very ignorant. Minorities who get into med school here deserve to be there much more than someone like you. I am for AA, just very jealous of my friends who are getting such a better reception than I have this cycle.

Typical ignorant American response. I present you with the realities and downfalls of your racist educational system, and instead of even attempting to counter my argument with any logical or factual contribution, you instead respond with "you are very, very ignorant," pathetic.

 

[DrLizzie]

Lizzie, I'm glad you brought that up. I have a very good reason for what I said, and I'll tell you why. In Canada, where I'm from, I have absolutely no qualms about visiting a black, hispanic, white, asian, or purple physician, do you know why? No? The reason is because in Canada we have no affirmative action! We don't have a racist system like you guys do in the US! Therefore, I KNOW that ANY physician that graduates from a Canadian medical school deserved to be there in the first place, is a competent physician, and did not get in based on his/her race or ethnicity! In Canada, candidate for professional school are evaluated based on their academic credentials, personality etc., but NOT based on their race, or ethnicity. The same can't be said about minority physicians in the US. If I were an American citizen seeking a physician, how am I to know whether or not that black doctor got in because he deserved to, or if he got in solely because of the colour of his skin?

And with that, the ignorance of this thread *should* end, although it most likely won't. 🙂

Seanjohn: as you and everyone else knows, this thread/conversation/debate can go on forever, and I frankly don't have the desire to continue this, but it is interesting that you would generalize the majority of "black" doctors in the US, and assume that they didn't deserve to be doctors. If that's what you think of "black" doctors in general, then I'm sorry to hear that, becuase I know many "black" doctors that had great stats, and "white" doctors that had below average stats that are working doctors as well, but you probably don't have a problem with non-black doctors, now do you?!

 

[MissMD'10]

Typical ignorant American response. I present you with the realities and downfalls of your racist educational system, and instead of even attempting to counter my argument with any logical or factual contribution, you instead respond with "you are very, very ignorant," pathetic.

it is not even worth my energy to try and argue. just go away.

 

[seanjohn]

Seanjohn: as you and everyone else knows, this thread/conversation/debate can go on forever, and I frankly don't have the desire to continue this, but it is interesting that you would generalize the majority of "black" doctors in the US, and assume that they didn't deserve to be doctors. If that's what you think of "black" doctors in general, then I'm sorry to hear that, becuase I know many "black" doctors that had great stats, and "white" doctors that had below average stats that are working doctors as well, but you probably don't have a problem with non-black doctors, now do you?!

Jesus Christ, you cannot possibly be that dense! 🙁 Please, for the love of God, re-read my intial response to you, and see that I have no problems with 'black' doctors in Canada, because they're not accepted into medical school because of their skin colour, but because of their non-racial, and non-ethnic credentials that ALL candidates should be evaluated on.

 

[seanjohn]

it is not even worth my energy to try and argue. just go away.

I know it's tough being slammed to the ground by the realities of your racist educational system. There, there, it's ok.

 

[Saluki]

Jesus Christ, you cannot possibly be that dense! 🙁 Please, for the love of God, re-read my intial response to you, and see that I have no problems with 'black' doctors in Canada, because they're not accepted into medical school because of their skin colour, but because of their non-racial, and non-ethnic credentials that ALL candidates should be evaluated on.

There are black people in Canada? Which state do they live in? Does the president of Canada mind?