Divorce because of Medicine

[styphon]

I wonder what percentage of divorce occurs during medical school and during residency, and I wonder how they compare to the normal public's rate of divorce.

I got divorced during residency and I feel that my medical training played a large role in this outcome.

I missed out on important events, meetings, and dinners because of training (especially during residency) and when I did get to go to such events I was often tired and not as interactive as I normally would be. This placed a stress on my relationship and my ex-wife felt neglected or less important than my career. When I was exhausted, I was also not so "forgiving" of mistakes and I was quicker to anger.

I also believe that my medical training reduced the amount I was able to care for and interact with my child which placed additional stress on the relationship. Sometimes when I was spending time with him it was in emergent situations when I would have to bring him to the hospital to round with me, or even to the L&D dept and color pictures as I did a delivery. The stresses of finding babysitters or having them call in the morning to say they aren't coming, or to quit suddenly the morning you need them places huge stresses on a stressful situation.

I would think this is a common situation - a nonmedical spouse feeling neglected, having to carry more home/child responsibility, and the edgeness that occurs when someone is overworked resulting in a "parting of ways."

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[Porfirio]

I would think more divorce takes place during residency than medical school (everyone is younger in medical school with less baggage, more likely to already be married during residency thus divorce is possible), and I would think the rate of divorce is higher than normal.

What are you trying to find by answering these questions?

If you want closure, go spend more time with your child, and apologize to your ex-wife for not being so "forgiving" of mistakes and being quick to anger.

As for your ex-wife feeling neglected, that is all on her. Either you intentionally neglected her or she believes that you neglected her. The first is on you, and you should apologize. The second is all her, and that is her problem.

The carry more home/child responsibilities - working to bring home a salary is carrying the home/child responsibilities. I imagine you both were carrying the responsibility but differently. Maybe she did not value or understand the way you carried your part of the home/child responsibilities. If you got home, and did not clean/take care of things around the house even though you were tired - well that is all your fault. You should apologize for that to her.

Is your point with this post to complain about how medicine consumes a large part of your life for awhile? I could not agree more with your complaint. Honestly, I think medical training should start as young as possible.

4 years for undergraduate, 4 years for medical school, 3-6 years for residency is a lot of time especially when it takes a large percentage of your daily activities. Add to this that the average age of people starting medical school is 24-25 (so time between undergraduate and medical school), and it only adds to the problem. The majority of people in their late 20s/early 30s want to settle down - get married and start a family. The timeline for medicine makes that difficult.

 

[Mad Jack]

There are stats that show relationships that begin prior to or during medical school have a substantially higher rate of divorce than those that start during or after residency. Also, physician-physician marriages are incredibly successful, with divorce rates of only 11%. Physicians have a substantially higher marriage rate than the general population, with nearly 9 out of 10 married, and nearly 9 out of 10 physician spouses saying they are happy or very happy in their marriage. The simple fact is, many doctors emerge from residency as completely different people that live a completely different lifestyle than existed before medical school. This leads to couples splitting because the nonmedical spouse signed up for a life that was completely different than anything they could have imagined, and end up with a spouse that is a largely different person than the one they initially began dating. If you meet someone in residency or afterward, they generally know what they are in for, because you already are that person and are living that life, leading to substantially lower divorce rates.

I read a lot into this all before I made the plunge and decided to pursue med school, was worried about the effect the process would have on my relationship with my fiance at the time. That crashed and burned anyway before I even finished my prereqs, but hey, at least the future looks brighter, if the statistics and surveys are any indication.

http://www.nationalreviewofmedicine.com/issue/2006/03_15/3_physicians_life02_05.html

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/782418

http://www.medscape.com/features/slideshow/lifestyle/2012/public (see slide 8 for marriage and divorce rates)

 

[QuantumJ]

I kind of just assumed he was sharing his experience. And as a fellow divorcee I appreciate hearing it. I got divorced during my fourth year of medical school.

My ex-wife was non-medical.

She had a very, very hard time with the demands of the hours and in particular the inconsistency of the hours (i.e. I say I'll probably be home around 7, but then a new admission shows up a 6:45). The lack of control over my own schedule was a big burden.

And grant you this was when I was just a medical student.

We had a lot of blowup arguments about the anticipated demands of a surgery residency. She didn't seem to understand why I was so driven (even compared to some of my peers going into other fields). She also would point to examples of part-time physicians with kids such as pediatricians or PCPs. She didn't seem to understand why I couldn't model my career after that and have more time. Meanwhile, my career goals are to be an academic subspecialty general surgeon, and would ultimately like to be a division chief/section head/department chair if the stars align. So we had a huge perception mismatch and it was a constant struggle.

I no doubt made more than my fair share of mistakes in handling things and finding ways to make her a priority with the time that I did have. But at the same time, we got married very young before either of us had any real clue of what a medical career looked like, and I think once I started to "grow up" in medicine and figure out what I wanted from my career we had a fundamental disagreement that we couldn't move past.

Fortunately we had not had any kids yet, so we were able to make a clean break. We don't keep in contact at all but from what I've heard she is much happier now, as am I. It was a painful experience to go through but I learned a lot about myself (both good and bad) in the process, have found amazing friends who supported me through it, and have come out the other side a stronger person. I'm now in a much healthier relationship with an amazing woman (who is in medicine, and that seems to be a good thing at least for me - though certainly it's not a universal requirement).

Thank you for sharing southernIM.

 

[Rendar5]

This sounds like an interesting thread but I don't really have anything to add despite wanting to bump the thread. Umm...

I think people make divorce out to be like this huge failing or whatever but sometimes it really is that people change and there is no recourse. Priorities are different or the connection isn't as intense as it was and whatever. I still think the spirit of trying to make a commitment and a resilient bond is a fantastic one. I'm a big believer that people who are both more ambitious will do better and those who are less ambitious will do better together. A mismatch in ambition is a no-no.

that's great that you think my wife and I are a mismatch =p she's the ambitious one

 

[Arkangeloid]

I remember someone saying that their residency program advertised a "110%" divorce rate: every one of their residents divorced, and of the ones who remarried, 10% of those divorced as well.

Must have been before the days where lifestyle became the most important thing in selecting a field.

 

[Anastomoses]

that's great that you think my wife and I are a mismatch =p she's the ambitious one

Does she know you were flirting with gangamaster in the other thread?

 

[PrideNeverDie]

Does she know you were flirting with gangstamaster in the other thread?

uh oh Rendar5

you are about to get snitched on by internet detective Anastomoses haha

 

[Arkangeloid]

Duke general surgery, as the urban legends go

Not to derail this thread, but is there anything in particular wrong with the specialties of General Surgery and OB/GYN? At my school, a lot of older students were calling those rotations "malignant," which I assume means something bad. I didn't believe them, but it turns out they were right. I looked up the statistics that the Dean provides, and the Surgery and OB/GYN rotations consistently had the highest rates of student abuse, year after year. What's going on there?

 

[@JackShephard]

This sounds like an interesting thread but I don't really have anything to add despite wanting to bump the thread. Umm...

I think people make divorce out to be like this huge failing or whatever but sometimes it really is that people change and there is no recourse. Priorities are different or the connection isn't as intense as it was and whatever. I still think the spirit of trying to make a commitment and a resilient bond is a fantastic one. I'm a big believer that people who are both more ambitious will do better and those who are less ambitious will do better together. A mismatch in ambition is a no-no.

It depends on how you view marriage.

Obviously those who have careers that are more important than their spouse will be less likely to see it as a failure. If marriage is an audition then it's easier to move on to the next one when things go awry.

 

[evilbooyaa]

I would say the main issue with divorce (besides the mental anguish on both you, your spouse, and your kids [if you have 'em]) is the alimony payments and who gets main control of the kids.

 

[drcrispmd]

I also got divorced during 4th year medical school. Applying to residency and going through a year long divorce and I still have my sanity. He was a medical spouse and I was and Air Force wife. Not a good combo. He was gone with it until 3rd year started. He respected the hours but when he got orders overseas I was expected to drop out of school and follow. I know other marriages that survived with no issues. It depends on both people. It is better to both discuss all expectations before making either plunge (marriage or medical school). I am a much happier person now and was able to go through residency much easier.

 

[Rendar5]

uh oh Rendar5

you are about to get snitched on by internet detective Anastomoses haha

Let her, my wife will also be turned on by that post =p

 

[jakeislove]

I think it has more to do with a couple's foundation and maturity.

 

[WaylonS]

FYI, I know several derm residents who broke up with their long-term s.o. in their PGY-3 and 4 years. If a dermatology residency can break up a solid relationship, I don't understand how any surgeons stay married

 

[jakeislove]

FYI, I know several derm residents who broke up with their long-term s.o. in their PGY-3 and 4 years. If a dermatology residency can break up a solid relationship, I don't understand how any surgeons stay married

Pimples are serious business, WaylonS!

 

[styphon]

What are you trying to find by answering these questions?

Is your point with this post to complain about how medicine consumes a large part of your life for awhile? I could not agree more with your complaint. Honestly, I think medical training should start as young as possible.

My objective is intellectual curosity and to share my story and see if others have similar experiences. I am not here "to complain", in fact I am actually happier now that I am divorced even though it was a stressful event to go thru, it all worked out in the end.

There are stats that show relationships that begin prior to or during medical school have a substantially higher rate of divorce than those that start during or after residency. Also, physician-physician marriages are incredibly successful, with divorce rates of only 11%. Physicians have a substantially higher marriage rate than the general population, with nearly 9 out of 10 married, and nearly 9 out of 10 physician spouses saying they are happy or very happy in their marriage. The simple fact is, many doctors emerge from residency as completely different people that live a completely different lifestyle than existed before medical school. This leads to couples splitting because the nonmedical spouse signed up for a life that was completely different than anything they could have imagined, and end up with a spouse that is a largely different person than the one they initially began dating. If you meet someone in residency or afterward, they generally know what they are in for, because you already are that person and are living that life, leading to substantially lower divorce rates.

Interesting. So people KNOWING what they are getting into (other doctors, meeting someone during the long hours of residency) actually stay together at a higher rate than the general public.

 

[pdxhopeful]

Sounds like there are aspects that would both encourage (long, sometimes unpredictable hours and high stress) and discourage (more secure financial status) divorces where at least one partner is a doctor.

I don't see divorce as an automatic failure but a reflection that things weren't working and seemed unlikely to improve. My parents are divorced and have a better relationship now than they did married, and I think a major factor in that is no-fault divorce. They were able to split before there was adultery or things got truly toxic.

For my part though, I really can't see ever marrying. Never been a romantic, and I'm pretty fiercely independent in my personal life - a trait that seems to be getting more, not less, pronounced as I get older.

 

[Anastomoses]

Sounds like there are aspects that would both encourage (long, sometimes unpredictable hours and high stress) and discourage (more secure financial status) divorces where at least one partner is a doctor.

I don't see divorce as an automatic failure but a reflection that things weren't working and seemed unlikely to improve. My parents are divorced and have a better relationship now than they did married, and I think a major factor in that is no-fault divorce. They were able to split before there was adultery or things got truly toxic.

For my part though, I really can't see ever marrying. Never been a romantic, and I'm pretty fiercely independent in my personal life - a trait that seems to be getting more, not less, pronounced as I get older.

Some people aren't meant to marry. It's actually not all that revolutionary. As a society we act like it's going to happen for everyone but historically, plenty of people didn't even have children. It was often the couples who did marry and have children who just had such an abundance so as to make up for the ones others weren't having.

I don't think of marriage as an audition but I don't think divorce is an automatic failure. I do think people really really should be invested in trying to compromise but in our current day that's anathema to personal development or whatever our media has been promoting. There's something to be said for a companion who completely gets you + shares your history after many years, if you can have that.

 

[Microshaft]

Thread should be renamed divorce because of job
most people are married to their jobs these days and it is not exclusive to medicine

 

[pdxhopeful]

I don't think of marriage as an audition but I don't think divorce is an automatic failure. I do think people really really should be invested in trying to compromise but in our current day that's anathema to personal development or whatever our media has been promoting. There's something to be said for a companion who completely gets you + shares your history after many years, if you can have that.

I do think couples need to learn to compromise and seek ways they can both get their needs met and meet each others' needs, but sometimes those needs turn out to just not be compatible even when the parties involved are both really invested and trying.

I also love having companions who get me and have a long history with me, but I get that from my close friendships and relationships with my family rather than a boyfriend or husband.

 

[Mad Jack]

Some people aren't meant to marry. It's actually not all that revolutionary. As a society we act like it's going to happen for everyone but historically, plenty of people didn't even have children. It was often the couples who did marry and have children who just had such an abundance so as to make up for the ones others weren't having.

I don't think of marriage as an audition but I don't think divorce is an automatic failure. I do think people really really should be invested in trying to compromise but in our current day that's anathema to personal development or whatever our media has been promoting. There's something to be said for a companion who completely gets you + shares your history after many years, if you can have that.

Having been down that road a couple times myself, I agree with you. Marriage very much requires two people to give up a little bit of themselves for one another in the form of compromise. When a society has been raised on media that pushes the ideas that the perfect relationship "just works" and is some kind of magical fairy tale and every day you'll be in love just as much as the first day you met, anything short of this ideal ends up feeling wrong, like you're not with "the one." That lovey oxytocin feeling only lasts a couple years at most, after which you're left with a very different sort of relationship. You still might feel it occasionally, but it isn't the same, it's more of companionship after a certain point. That's when a lot of people panic, because ****, the movies didn't say it should feel like this so obviously it's wrong. And that's also the point where compromise becomes the most critical, because that initial love and lust is gone and you aren't so blind to your partner's flaws, so you really need to learn to have some give and take. A lot of people just can't deal with that reality in our self-actualization driven, "me"-centric culture. They forget that a relationship is about building something together that you could never create on your own, about actualizing on a level beyond the self.

At this point I'm pretty certain I'm never making that plunge again though. I was a few weeks away from having to refer to my ex wives by numbers. If that isn't a sign, I don't know what is. Relationship, sure. Marriage, ah hell naw.

 

[jakeislove]

Mad Jack,

After someone has been divorced a few times...... it's them, LOL!

One of my buddies just did it a 5th time, with some chick off match dot com, who was willing to give it a 4th try. They just too a few months to think things over and haven't been together a year.

 

[PlayUltimate15]

Having been down that road a couple times myself, I agree with you. Marriage very much requires two people to give up a little bit of themselves for one another in the form of compromise. When a society has been raised on media that pushes the ideas that the perfect relationship "just works" and is some kind of magical fairy tale and every day you'll be in love just as much as the first day you met, anything short of this ideal ends up feeling wrong, like you're not with "the one." That lovey oxytocin feeling only lasts a couple years at most, after which you're left with a very different sort of relationship. You still might feel it occasionally, but it isn't the same, it's more of companionship after a certain point. That's when a lot of people panic, because ****, the movies didn't say it should feel like this so obviously it's wrong. And that's also the point where compromise becomes the most critical, because that initial love and lust is gone and you aren't so blind to your partner's flaws, so you really need to learn to have some give and take. A lot of people just can't deal with that reality in our self-actualization driven, "me"-centric culture. They forget that a relationship is about building something together that you could never create on your own, about actualizing on a level beyond the self.

At this point I'm pretty certain I'm never making that plunge again though. I was a few weeks away from having to refer to my ex wives by numbers. If that isn't a sign, I don't know what is. Relationship, sure. Marriage, ah hell naw.

I might make these edits: "SUCCESSFUL marriage requires two people to give up A LOT of themselves for the sake of the other." I will also venture to propose that real love manifests itself in the form of sacrifice, not in feelings. You are correct when you say that feelings fade. When I think about marriage and the type of wife I desire to be, I think about how I can serve the needs of my husband. I try and think primarily of how I can give myself to him (in the midst of career and life craziness =P) and secondarily of how I can receive the love he gives to me. Of course there is a sense in which my needs ARE important because I must take care of myself in order to care for others ("Please secure your own oxygen mask before assisting those around you" type of a thing), but there is also a sense in which the needs of my husband and family must come before my own. ANYWAYS, I agree with most of your first paragraph. Thank you for sharing.

 

[Mad Jack]

Mad Jack,

After someone has been divorced a few times...... it's them, LOL!

One of my buddies just did it a 5th time, with some chick off match dot com, who was willing to give it a 4th try. They just too a few months to think things over and haven't been together a year.

There is a pretty good chance it was partly my choice of women- one was my high school sweetheart, the other i started dating when she was 18 while I was 22- so there's a chance I would do better with older women who are more in touch with what they want etc, but I just really don't want to throw everything into a contract that basically is just an opportunity for a woman to take half my **** if she decides she doesn't feel like putting the effort into making things work (I'm always willing to put a lot of hard work in, but I always end up with flighty artist types). I do have a girl I've been with for 2 years, but I'm very up front with her that marriage will never be in the cards.

 

[jakeislove]

@ Jack,

DGF has heard "I really wanted to see who'd put up with him." when people meet her for almost 9 years.

 

[Patassa]

I might make these edits: "SUCCESSFUL marriage requires two people to give up A LOT of themselves for the sake of the other." I will also venture to propose that real love manifests itself in the form of sacrifice, not in feelings.

This.

 

[DreDre31]

Hello everyone! This here is my perspective as a non-medical spouse and I'm hoping that it'll help others in similar situations.

We were married for about 2 years before he decided he wanted to go to medical school and we also had a cute little baby 2 yrs before he entered. I wouldn't want to stand in the way of something he wanted to do, so I said ok to the whole thing. Who am I to stand in his way? Anyways, we married in May of 2007, and we're Class of 2015 and our daughter is turning 5 next month, and OMG its been a rollercoaster of a ride.

He and I didn't do much research on medical marriages. He was too busy studying, I was too busy mothering, working and studying off/on, so we literally rode that bronco all the way into medical school. We were so ecstatic to be accepted that we probably ignored or were too naïve to see, prepare and adapt to the impending changes and difficulties. We argued alot, even before med school because of the amount of time he had devoted to studying (some 18 plus hours), and when he wasn't studying, he spent the majority of his time escaping reality playing WoW, instead of helping out with the baby or helping me. I stayed up with our daughter 99% of the time to bottle feed her and attend to her crying and diapering. I never got a break and was sleep deprived(In fact I still am the sole night parent but to a much easier degree), so emotions soared high, plus I was dealing with Post-partum depression, PTSD and anxiety. I spent alot of time crying and felt that he dumped his responsibility of parenting and child rearing on me. I threatened him many times with divorce and vice versa until I finally figured out that HE wasn't intentionally trying to ignore, neglect me, nor does he love his pre-medical career more than me. With that said, he does have a tendency to shut us out because he is stressed himself. He and I just handle our mental and emotional stresses differently and I blame him less and less for that. In fact, once I made up my mind to stop blaming him, most of that stress subsided. He and I also decided to stay together because we do care about each other and our child and wanted to desperately get past our problems. Truthfully, I know I was causing more stress on the both of us, even to make him pay for the way I felt, so once I abandoned that vicious cycle of abuse and put on my big girl panties, alot has changed. I changed. I made more effort to try and support him so that he could sleep, study and play more WoW. I didn't realize that I was trying to sabotage him from graduating because that would also affect me and our daughter. I just wanted to feel loved, connected and be shown affection so once I figured out how to express those feelings in a non-aggressive manner, and listen to him things got better. He also has to put things aside every so often and makes an effort to really be with us mentally and physically. Medical school owns us and our time and realizing that has alleviated much my emotional stress. I've probably never felt happier with so little even though I've lost my car in a crash and have had to live with my in-laws for over a year in a 200sqft foot room with our daughter. I lost a lot of freedom from all that but have gained so much support physically, mentally, spiritually and emotionally. Our daughter gets to see her grandparents everyday and is spoiled with love. Even she was our support and mediator whenever we'd bicker or argue like children. Seeing her act so mature at 3 and for was a learning opportunity for us to become better parents, individuals and improve our relationship. So I am happy, and I suppose it was serendipitous to have to lose our physical possessions, and independence and sacrifice personal space in order to become a family again because our family is the most important thing in the world to us. I wouldn't change a thing and I'm glad for our struggles because we now no longer struggle alone, but struggle together. I just hope that if there are others out there struggling with this, and I know there are, that you can take something positive from our story and apply it to your lives before deciding to divorce. It can only work if both partners work on the relationship and themselves for the positive. Don't throw more fuel on the fire, if the house is already burning. Instead diffuse the fire with love, respect and understanding and listen to each other. Listen to the verbal and non verbal actions because it all tells a story. Its up to you now, and finally find healthy support and outlets. Use your medical schools, religious or other resources. You're never truly alone, sometimes you just have to step out of your corner.



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[jakeislove]

Thank you for sharing, DrDre31~

 

[DreDre31]

Np & Thnx!

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[styphon]

. Truthfully, I know I was causing more stress on the both of us, even to make him pay for the way I felt, so once I abandoned that vicious cycle of abuse and put on my big girl panties, alot has changed. I changed. I made more effort to try and support him so that he could sleep, study and play more WoW. I didn't realize that I was trying to sabotage him from graduating because that would also affect me and our daughter. I just wanted to feel loved, connected and be shown affection so once I figured out how to express those feelings in a non-aggressive manner, and listen to him things got better. He also has to put things aside every so often and makes an effort to really be with us mentally and physically. Medical school owns us and our time and realizing that has alleviated much my emotional stress.

That is a very mature response and makes me feel positive that at least some of the population can adjust and adapt. This will also be useful for you and your relationship when he gets into residency - which is even worse/more time demanding/more stressful than medical school.

 

[Armadillos]

I can't speak at all for residency and who knows what the future holds, but from the standpoint of someone almost done with 3rd year, medschool itself is not something that needs to be stressful/taxing to your marriage, I think its been a great time for my marriage and my wife would agree.

Like everything else in life planning, compromise and flexibility are everything. As for planning, I think having kids during medschool would be very tough so I think it would be dangerous to plan to do that from a marriage standpoint, but obviously unexpected things happen and you will adapt if needed.

As far as compromise, in our case I got into several top medschools, but decided to go to a lower rated school that was closer to our families/old friends which has been amazing, its been especially helpful because my wife often specifically plans stuff with family/friends on days im working late/overnight. Another aspect is that I think medschool will take as much of your life as you give it, so I just refused to give medschool my whole life. I don't study nearly as much as I could/"should", but I know what level of studying I need to meet my goals, and I don't do any more than that. During the first 2 years of medschool my wife and I got to hang out several hours a night and go do fun stuff almost every weekend. During clincal years obviously my schedule is more erratic, but in the scheme of things only about 50% of the rotations actually have hours any worse than a normal job. And from the beginning I promised my wife I wasn't going to do anything surgical so during the roughest rotations her mind could rest easy knowing I'm not going to choose to do that for the rest of life. And its ended up that the field that I have most enjoyed and has been the most intellectually stimulating to me is known for good work hours (obviously not a coincidence) and I'm not even considering some other more hour intensive fields that I have the grades for and may pay 2-3x as much while carrying more prestige.

From my wife's standpoint she has made compromises, she limited her job selection geographically because of where medschools are. We chose our living location so I could get to school in <5 minutes so I wouldn't have to waste time commuting, and she took the longer commute. She does almost all of the errands that involve driving, cooks most of the meals when I'm on tough rotations, etc. But when it does happen that I have an easy rotation, I'm doing most of the cooking/cleaning, etc. and letting her spend more of that extra time on her work or hobbies.

I'm hoping that we can employ similar planning to minimize the damage of residency by trying not to isolate ourselves geographically and the fact that I'm going to be doing a lifestyle friendly specialty. Obviously its going to be way more challenging, but we are just trying to practice being happy while busy now and hopefully we will be fortunate enough to continue during residency.

 

[DermViser]

I wonder what percentage of divorce occurs during medical school and during residency, and I wonder how they compare to the normal public's rate of divorce.

I got divorced during residency and I feel that my medical training played a large role in this outcome.

I missed out on important events, meetings, and dinners because of training (especially during residency) and when I did get to go to such events I was often tired and not as interactive as I normally would be. This placed a stress on my relationship and my ex-wife felt neglected or less important than my career. When I was exhausted, I was also not so "forgiving" of mistakes and I was quicker to anger.

I also believe that my medical training reduced the amount I was able to care for and interact with my child which placed additional stress on the relationship. Sometimes when I was spending time with him it was in emergent situations when I would have to bring him to the hospital to round with me, or even to the L&D dept and color pictures as I did a delivery. The stresses of finding babysitters or having them call in the morning to say they aren't coming, or to quit suddenly the morning you need them places huge stresses on a stressful situation.

I would think this is a common situation - a nonmedical spouse feeling neglected, having to carry more home/child responsibility, and the edgeness that occurs when someone is overworked resulting in a "parting of ways."

And now you know why medical students enter specialties that have a good lifestyle. In the end, no matter what medical faculty say, medicine is just a job. A job with higher compensation - but a job nonethless. No job is worth losing your family and who you are as a person.

 

[DermViser]

I remember someone saying that their residency program advertised a "110%" divorce rate: every one of their residents divorced, and of the ones who remarried, 10% of those divorced as well.

Must have been before the days where lifestyle became the most important thing in selecting a field.

I think faculty members that advertise that are usually the ones that have a few screws loose to begin with. I think it kind of starts in medical school (esp. those schools with a very conservative culture) where students are proud of being "tired", or not having eaten for hours on end, or not getting to even use the bathroom, etc.

I think when med students weren't so sensitive to lifestyle issues - that was when others took real advantage of the situation - i.e. residencies, hospitals, etc. and made it seem like you had an inherent defect in you for daring to put anything #1 in you life but your training. Somehow, getting a divorce in residency, esp. surgical residencies, was somehow a badge of courage for someone who put their "education first".

 

[DermViser]

FYI, I know several derm residents who broke up with their long-term s.o. in their PGY-3 and 4 years. If a dermatology residency can break up a solid relationship, I don't understand how any surgeons stay married

To be fair, the female residents in dermatology tend to be MUCH more high maintenance. Trust me.

 

[Arkangeloid]

I think faculty members that advertise that are usually the ones that have a few screws loose to begin with. I think it kind of starts in medical school (esp. those schools with a very conservative culture) where students are proud of being "tired", or not having eaten for hours on end, etc.

I think when med students weren't so sensitive to lifestyle issues - that was when others took real advantage of the situation - i.e. residencies, hospitals, etc. and made it seem like you had an inherent defect in you for daring to put anything #1 in you life but your training. Somehow, getting a divorce in residency, esp. surgical residencies, was somehow a badge of courage for someone who put their "education first".

I think I see some of this at my school. Male residents here are even encouraged to shave as little as possible, because being clean-shaven indicates someone who is taking time away from his training to focus on his appearance.

 

[DermViser]

I think I see some of this at my school. Male residents here are even encouraged to shave as little as possible, because being clean-shaven indicates someone who is taking time away from his training to focus on his appearance.

At the same time, they'll bitch and moan (the ones who've gotten a full night's sleep, of course) about how you should look "professional" when you've barely gotten a chance to eat, take a **** or piss, without your beeper going off. The field of medicine (as well as academic medical schools) thrives with people who are masochistic (as well as sadistic, sorry to say). Then you throw in students who go to medical school bc their parents are doctors, Asian, etc. mix in a little humiliation, fear, sleep deprivation, etc. and you have an environment ripe for divorce.

That's why certain specialties that you mentioned - OB-Gyn and Surgery, do tend to be malignant, as you stated. These specialties take a very taxing role on mental health, family life, sleep, etc.

Compare this to say Dentistry or PA school. It's nowhere close.

 

[DermViser]

Not to derail this thread, but is there anything in particular wrong with the specialties of General Surgery and OB/GYN? At my school, a lot of older students were calling those rotations "malignant," which I assume means something bad. I didn't believe them, but it turns out they were right. I looked up the statistics that the Dean provides, and the Surgery and OB/GYN rotations consistently had the highest rates of student abuse, year after year. What's going on there?

You're not just derailing...you've just completely built new tracks on this thread. What in the world does this have to do with divorce or residencies in which divorce rates might be higher or...or anything? Do you regularly free-associate?

You're not exactly someone with brilliant threads, Anastomoses. OB-Gyn and Surgery of course have higher rates of divorce, than other specialties due to their malignant nature. Do you not see the obvious connection?

 

[Anastomoses]

You're not exactly someone with brilliant threads, Anastomoses. OB-Gyn and Surgery of course have higher rates of divorce, than other specialties due to their malignant nature. Do you not see the obvious connection?

1. My threads are amazing. Let's see yours. 2. His post had nothing whatsoever to do with divorce...stop stretching, unicorn.

 

[Arkangeloid]

1. My threads are amazing. Let's see yours. 2. His post had nothing whatsoever to do with divorce...stop stretching, unicorn.

I should have mentioned it. I just figured that because Surgery and OB/GYN apparently suck so much, they might have higher divorce rates.

 

[DermViser]

1. My threads are amazing. Let's see yours. 2. His post had nothing whatsoever to do with divorce...stop stretching, unicorn.

Yes, nothing says amazing like wondering why a guy wouldn't talk to you in a club, bc you were quizzing him on Acetylcholine and thinking the problem is him, not you.

His post was regarding malignant residencies, that naturally lend themselves to higher divorce rates due very high strain on families. Not getting to see your spouse (besides when going to sleep) for months at a time, is caustic to any marriage. Compare this to say, Radiology or Dermatology.

 

[evilbooyaa]

1. My threads are amazing. Let's see yours. 2. His post had nothing whatsoever to do with divorce...stop stretching, unicorn.

People in Surgery at least seem to have higher rates of divorce than most other fields in medicine. Not sure about OB/Gyn, although it seems like >75% of the female residents should be really close to one (based on their personality).

 

[Anastomoses]

Yes, nothing says amazing like wondering why a guy wouldn't talk to you in a club, bc you were quizzing him on Acetylcholine and thinking the problem is him, not you.

Nothing says ***** like misrepresenting facts. I'm starting to think you're someone we had on here who recently had his account revoked. Let's try again: I never wondered why a guy wouldn't talk to me in a club. Why are you making this up in an attempt to degrade? I assumed a guy ran off to hide his tail between his legs when quizzed on simple medical info when he was pretending to be a doctor. Wrap your brain around that.

 

[DermViser]

Nothing says ***** like misrepresenting facts. I'm starting to think you're someone we had on here who recently had his account revoked. Let's try again: I never wondered why a guy wouldn't talk to me in a club. Why are you making this up in an attempt to degrade? I assumed a guy ran off to hide his tail between his legs when quizzed on simple medical info when he was pretending to be a doctor. Wrap your brain around that.

Yes, and where did you do it? In a FREAKIN' CLUB (you know where people dance to music, drink, and have a good time, not exchange factoids from First Aid).

 

[Snoopy2006]

Having been down that road a couple times myself, I agree with you. Marriage very much requires two people to give up a little bit of themselves for one another in the form of compromise. When a society has been raised on media that pushes the ideas that the perfect relationship "just works" and is some kind of magical fairy tale and every day you'll be in love just as much as the first day you met, anything short of this ideal ends up feeling wrong, like you're not with "the one." That lovey oxytocin feeling only lasts a couple years at most, after which you're left with a very different sort of relationship. You still might feel it occasionally, but it isn't the same, it's more of companionship after a certain point. That's when a lot of people panic, because ****, the movies didn't say it should feel like this so obviously it's wrong. And that's also the point where compromise becomes the most critical, because that initial love and lust is gone and you aren't so blind to your partner's flaws, so you really need to learn to have some give and take. A lot of people just can't deal with that reality in our self-actualization driven, "me"-centric culture. They forget that a relationship is about building something together that you could never create on your own, about actualizing on a level beyond the self.

At this point I'm pretty certain I'm never making that plunge again though. I was a few weeks away from having to refer to my ex wives by numbers. If that isn't a sign, I don't know what is. Relationship, sure. Marriage, ah hell naw.

Mad Jack posts some of the most sage relationship advice I've seen on SDN. Completely agree with this. And to southernIm, DreDre - thanks for sharing personal stories.

 

[jakeislove]

Yes, and where did you do it? In a FREAKIN' CLUB (you know where people dance to music, drink, and have a good time, not exchange factoids from First Aid).

Thank God I have a GF!

My First Aid kung fu is weak, LOL!