DNP versus MD?

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Based on what? My schedule is full every day.

I was being dramatic.

But it doesn't bode well for your specialty when the nurses publish a meta-analysis in the BMJ showing NPs provide equivalent care at equivalent cost with greater patient satisfaction.
 
I was being dramatic.

But it doesn't bode well for your specialty when the nurses publish a meta-analysis in the BMJ showing NPs provide equivalent care at equivalent cost with greater patient satisfaction.

That's typical MO for nurses wanting equivalence with MD's. They publish bullsh*t, flawed studies in no name journals to show no differences. It's not that hard to find flaws in the study design. Then they go waving it in front of clueless politicians.
 
I was being dramatic.

But it doesn't bode well for your specialty when the nurses publish a meta-analysis in the BMJ showing NPs provide equivalent care at equivalent cost with greater patient satisfaction.

On the flip-side, it could always be the extra 3.67 minutes that the NP's spent with the patients causing the increase satisfaction. Without looking at the actual article, it seems like there might be a false cause-effect relationship being touted here.





Josh LAc, soon-to-be BSN graduate [8/07] and probably future FNP.
 
it doesn't bode well for your specialty when the nurses publish a meta-analysis in the BMJ showing NPs provide equivalent care at equivalent cost with greater patient satisfaction.

I think you're reading too much into that study.

Recommended reading: How to Lie with Statistics. You'll never believe another meta-analysis again. 😉
 
The full article is here: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/324/7341/819

It's really not that impressive.



Gracias. I'm going to print it off and read it during the downtime on my OB / L&D rotation tommorrow.



[ed - I have plenty of time since most laboring mothers, or their husbands, aren't very comfortable with a mursing student attending their delivery - thus, I have time to sit and read.]
 
The full article is here: http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/324/7341/819

It's really not that impressive.

Evaluating this article using EBM, it is very weak. They admit over and over again that the data is flawed b/c of numerous issues.

1) It is a meta-analysis
2) They don't know what a true definition of a nurse practitioner was in each study
3) They called the studies blinded but what does that mean? Where the patients not informed if the clinician was a physician or a NP?
4) I agree that most of the "positive" ranking is based on the amount of time that is spent with the patient
5) They claim that the medicine was equal. But I would be eager to see what was being treated? ED? Yearly screenings?
 
That's typical MO for nurses wanting equivalence with MD's. They publish bullsh*t, flawed studies in no name journals to show no differences. It's not that hard to find flaws in the study design. Then they go waving it in front of clueless politicians.


😍

You guys are so durn cute!!!!

Numerous studies confirm the exact same results from different researchers and still you guys cannot accept it. It is interesting that you feel that the BMJ is a no name journal. What do you consider a valid journal then??

At any rate, don't you think that if there was really a problem that there would not be countless studies showing that NPs and PAs are big bad boogeymen???

I am certain that there are a lot of medical researchers that would love to be able to come up with a study that says all NPs should be burned at the stake, but I fail to see any of note.

Peace dudes. There is room for all of us. The medical system can stand a little shake up. 🙂 😉
 
To blunt nursing scope expansion, I think physicians in other specialties can learn a thing from the anesthesiologists.

This whole mess is because there are two separate boards governing medicine and nursing at the state level. If nurses keep this up and try to claim equivalence with MD's, then MD's should start showing a preference for the medical counterpart of NP's, the physician assistant. Granted, physician assistants are no RN's, but they are interchangeable with NP's. The advantage of using PA's is that they understand the need to work collaboratively with MD's. Based on what I have read, it actually seems that PA education is superior to NP's.

That's what anesthesiologists are realizing. Groups are starting to replace CRNA's with AA's.
 
You see my point though, meta-analysis of multiple RCTs, published in BMJ? Hard to be a whole lot more persuassive than that, even if the underlying data is weak.

I don't find low-quality studies to be very persuasive.
 
😍

You guys are so durn cute!!!!

Numerous studies confirm the exact same results from different researchers and still you guys cannot accept it. It is interesting that you feel that the BMJ is a no name journal. What do you consider a valid journal then??

At any rate, don't you think that if there was really a problem that there would not be countless studies showing that NPs and PAs are big bad boogeymen???

I am certain that there are a lot of medical researchers that would love to be able to come up with a study that says all NPs should be burned at the stake, but I fail to see any of note.

Peace dudes. There is room for all of us. The medical system can stand a little shake up. 🙂 😉

Be kind enough to show one adequately powered study where a NP working independently provides equal care to a practicing physician (not a resident). Looked a lot, never found even one. The closest you can come is a study from Ohio that was not long enough (that whole power thing) and had a lot of crossover.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Be kind enough to show one adequately powered study where a NP working independently provides equal care to a practicing physician (not a resident). Looked a lot, never found even one. The closest you can come is a study from Ohio that was not long enough (that whole power thing) and had a lot of crossover.

David Carpenter, PA-C

We all assume that NPs are well trained in EBM. I search the AANP cirriculum statement (http://www.aanp.org/NR/rdonlyres/ekkfsb5zy4cerarzoaizeol2fb66ub62625c3hr24vja4q3rd4uxgcppf7ir3zcj4uiqpt3xpwbo6a/NP%2bCurriculum%2bStatement%2b03.pdf) there is no mention of evidence based medicine. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone, but it does not appear that any NP program even offers a 1 credit course on EBM; so how can they evaluate any article they read.

Also, I was very surprised to learn that NP programs offer "distance learning." You can get your masters online. Great cirriculum!
 
Be kind enough to show one adequately powered study where a NP working independently provides equal care to a practicing physician (not a resident). Looked a lot, never found even one. The closest you can come is a study from Ohio that was not long enough (that whole power thing) and had a lot of crossover.

David Carpenter, PA-C

Well, we need to decide what this thread is about. Are we talking about the value of midlevels and how they are a very important, useful, qualified level of care? If so, then that is the thread I am on and defending.

Are we talking about midlevels replacing doctors? Then I am not on that thread and have not supported any claim to that effect.
 
Well, we need to decide what this thread is about. Are we talking about the value of midlevels and how they are a very important, useful, qualified level of care? If so, then that is the thread I am on and defending.

Are we talking about midlevels replacing doctors? Then I am not on that thread and have not supported any claim to that effect.

Well the original post asked about the difference between DNP and MD. The discussion has been going on for almost a year now. The discussion has again come up on the BMJ journal article. Your statement:
"Numerous studies confirm the exact same results from different researchers and still you guys cannot accept it. It is interesting that you feel that the BMJ is a no name journal. What do you consider a valid journal then??"

My point along with a number of others is that A this is a very poor study done by researchers from a different medical and nursing system that really didn't understand what an NP is. And B there are no studies that confirm this despite your statement (see above). If NP's want true independence (no collaboration, no supervision) then they need to produce well done properly powered and properly designed studies that show they have equivalent outcomes to practicing physicians (and no patient satisfaction is not an outcome despite what the bean counters state). To my knowledge this has never been done.

I will go even farther and say that there is now some data that shows that a non-residency trained physician (non BC) has poorer outcomes in some cases. The standard is a BC residency trained physician. Any claims of equivalence should be based on that.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Well the original post asked about the difference between DNP and MD. The discussion has been going on for almost a year now. The discussion has again come up on the BMJ journal article. Your statement:
"Numerous studies confirm the exact same results from different researchers and still you guys cannot accept it. It is interesting that you feel that the BMJ is a no name journal. What do you consider a valid journal then??"

My point along with a number of others is that A this is a very poor study done by researchers from a different medical and nursing system that really didn't understand what an NP is. And B there are no studies that confirm this despite your statement (see above). If NP's want true independence (no collaboration, no supervision) then they need to produce well done properly powered and properly designed studies that show they have equivalent outcomes to practicing physicians (and no patient satisfaction is not an outcome despite what the bean counters state). To my knowledge this has never been done.

I will go even farther and say that there is now some data that shows that a non-residency trained physician (non BC) has poorer outcomes in some cases. The standard is a BC residency trained physician. Any claims of equivalence should be based on that.

David Carpenter, PA-C

I think you guys are freaking out because they dare to put the word doctor in their title. I don't think even with that word few - if any - DNP feels that they are a medical doctor. They are in a different, equally valuable field (regardless of the huge compensation difference). Doctor is not a sacred word. Shoot, my sister in law is a doctor of history. I don't think she plans on operating any time soon. How to address patients has already been covered earlier in this thread I believe (I could be getting them mixed up). When I am with a patient, I introduce myself as "Hi there, I am Sally, A Nurse Practitioner, how are you?" and when/if I get my PhD (which I am seriously considering) I will introduce myself as "Hi there, I am dr. Sally, a Nurse Practitioner".

It is not difficult to google scholarly articles and find many, many studies about NP care. Not a one that I found is negative. However, they are all studying NPs working in collaboration with a physician. And that is what I support (and do myself). Semi independence.

Patient satisfaction is HUGE. For many reasons, some of them relating to health. The most basic would be that whether you like it or not (or admit it or not) medicine is a business and customer satisfaction in any business is paramount.

And finally, a non-residency trained physician is not comparable to an NP. I would indeed expect poorer outcomes from them on all levels.

At any rate, whatever you or I think does not really matter. All you have to do is look in the real world and see what is happening to realize what the future of medicine is going to look like. I for one feel it has many positive implications. the old school could definitely use a bit of an overhaul...
 
I think you guys are freaking out because they dare to put the word doctor in their title. I don't think even with that word few - if any - DNP feels that they are a medical doctor. They are in a different, equally valuable field (regardless of the huge compensation difference). Doctor is not a sacred word. Shoot, my sister in law is a doctor of history. I don't think she plans on operating any time soon. How to address patients has already been covered earlier in this thread I believe (I could be getting them mixed up). When I am with a patient, I introduce myself as "Hi there, I am Sally, A Nurse Practitioner, how are you?" and when/if I get my PhD (which I am seriously considering) I will introduce myself as "Hi there, I am dr. Sally, a Nurse Practitioner".

Doctor is not a sacred word, but in a medical context it has a specific meaning. Without getting into the equivalence of a DNP vs. MD/DO, it is difficult to say what the goal is here. If a NP with a PhD wants to use Dr. in a nursing setting then go right ahead. To use it in a medical setting invites confusion.

It is not difficult to google scholarly articles and find many, many studies about NP care. Not a one that I found is negative. However, they are all studying NPs working in collaboration with a physician. And that is what I support (and do myself). Semi independence.

There are a few poorly done studies that look at independent practice. The majority however, look at collaborative or supervised practice and try to pass it off as independent practice. Once again if you want to claim independence (which is what the ANA wants) you need to be able to back it up.

Patient satisfaction is HUGE. For many reasons, some of them relating to health. The most basic would be that whether you like it or not (or admit it or not) medicine is a business and customer satisfaction in any business is paramount.

Yes medicine is a business but patient satisfaction is not the only outcome. If NP's let diabetics eat whatever they want and the physicians harangue them to eat appropriate diets and monitor their sugars who will have the best patient satisfaction? Who will have the better patient outcomes? They are not and should not be considered equal.


And finally, a non-residency trained physician is not comparable to an NP. I would indeed expect poorer outcomes from them on all levels.

Answer uncertain. There are some good non-residency trained physicians out there. But if you look at some of the data coming out of the state BME's and insurance data there appears to be more claims and discipline problems. I think that more BME's will require a residency before issuing a license. My point there actually was a lot of studies that NP's use to show equivalence look at residents vs. NP's. Not really a proper comparison.

At any rate, whatever you or I think does not really matter. All you have to do is look in the real world and see what is happening to realize what the future of medicine is going to look like. I for one feel it has many positive implications. the old school could definitely use a bit of an overhaul...

I think at the end of the day the nursing profession is going to rue the day they instituted the DNP (personal opinion and does not represent any of the many organisations I belong to). There are two reasons for this. The first is that this particular issue has energized the physician community to extent that I have not previously seen. They have been paying more attention not only to APN issues but also are working to restrict the use of the title in some states. Especially in rural areas this becomes a very touchy subject.

The other is that while I applaud the DNP for upgrading the NP educational system, it goes against the trends of the NP profession for the last 30 years. While all four APN professions had similar initial programs for education, during the 70's the contact time for NP's and CNS was significantly decreased in an effort to enhance accesability (the second part of this was in the 90's with the arrival of the direct entry NP program).

The original NP programs were two years of full time work. Some (there is considerable variation here) NP programs can be completed in as little as two years of part time work (not even discussing the appropriateness of internet based education). A number of studies looking at graduate education (mostly in the MBA world) show that two years is the magical number. If a part time program lasts longer than this or becomes a full time program (cannot work full time during school) then interest rapidly drops off. So NP programs will be going from two years of part time to either 2 years of full time or 4-5 years of part time. In my opinion this will dramatically decrease interest in the profession.

We all have our opinions, only time will tell who is right.

David Carpenter, PA-C
 
Well, we need to decide what this thread is about. Are we talking about the value of midlevels and how they are a very important, useful, qualified level of care? If so, then that is the thread I am on and defending.

You may be on the wrong thread, then. This was the OP's question:

I am confused between a DNP versus a MD degree. What is the difference between both besides the name?

Like any thread that goes on for more than a single page, this one has wandered back and forth. Let's try to keep it on-topic, if at all possible.
 
I think you guys are freaking out because they dare to put the word doctor in their title. I don't think even with that word few - if any - DNP feels that they are a medical doctor. They are in a different, equally valuable field (regardless of the huge compensation difference). Doctor is not a sacred word. Shoot, my sister in law is a doctor of history. I don't think she plans on operating any time soon. How to address patients has already been covered earlier in this thread I believe (I could be getting them mixed up). When I am with a patient, I introduce myself as "Hi there, I am Sally, A Nurse Practitioner, how are you?" and when/if I get my PhD (which I am seriously considering) I will introduce myself as "Hi there, I am dr. Sally, a Nurse Practitioner".

It is not difficult to google scholarly articles and find many, many studies about NP care. Not a one that I found is negative. However, they are all studying NPs working in collaboration with a physician. And that is what I support (and do myself). Semi independence.

Patient satisfaction is HUGE. For many reasons, some of them relating to health. The most basic would be that whether you like it or not (or admit it or not) medicine is a business and customer satisfaction in any business is paramount.

And finally, a non-residency trained physician is not comparable to an NP. I would indeed expect poorer outcomes from them on all levels.

At any rate, whatever you or I think does not really matter. All you have to do is look in the real world and see what is happening to realize what the future of medicine is going to look like. I for one feel it has many positive implications. the old school could definitely use a bit of an overhaul...

I am in total agreement with the previous poster. If nurses want to congregate and call each other "doctor" in an academic center, then by all means, let them, I don't care, they can do it all day. However, if an NP introduces themself as "Dr. Sally" to a patient and then proceeds to give medical advice, that is totally unprofessional and misrepresentative of that person's qualifications-- the nurse has represented his/herself as a physician, which he/she is not, and the patient is going to think that he has the qualifications of a physician, which he/she does not. It's not fair to the patient.

In addition, patient satisfaction is simply not the only result we should be concerned with-- patient outcome should be our first priority-- clinically how did the patient do. It's great if the patient loves us and feels all warm and fuzzy about us at the end of the day, but if that patient is dead because we couldn't make the right diagnosis because we didn't have adequate training, then how satisfied they were with our bedside manner becomes rather obsolete, then, doesn't it?

What I don't understand is why nurses are trying to become doctors through the back door? If you want to be a doctor, then go to medical school and stop this DNP crap because it's really annoying. How would you like it if the CNA's starting running all over your turf just because they felt like they were qualified to take over your job even though they weren't? I bet the nursing community would have a fit? Well guess what, the medical community probably isn't going to like this either and we shouldn't because we've worked really hard to get where we are and we didn't take shortcuts to get there either. If you want to be an NP, fine, but understand that you should always be working under the supervision of a qualified physician because you simply don't have the training of an MD/DO.
 
I have a simple solution to this. Hire PA's and drop the NP's.

Done.
 
My new issue is that you can get a NP online. That is a joke. How can anyone guarantee what the final product is?
 
My new issue is that you can get a NP online. That is a joke. How can anyone guarantee what the final product is?

It's no joke, dude. The clinical is done like any traditional program. You are so far behind the times. The top universities offer on-line courses and there are many benefits over sitting in class...I found 40 of them. Many of your CMEs are on-line.
 
It's no joke, dude. The clinical is done like any traditional program. You are so far behind the times. The top universities offer on-line courses and there are many benefits over sitting in class...I found 40 of them. Many of your CMEs are on-line.

No it is a joke. Something you should not learn online. CMEs I'm okay with not earning a clinical degree online.
 
Old fuddy-duddy...*kidding*
I have a big issue with this as well. One of the PA programs tried it as an experiment for a year or two but it didn't go over so well (can't remember which program). The goal was to "bring the classroom to the student" from a particularly rural area, but it's just not a practical thing to do. A common beef among PA students is that they pretty much have to sign their lives away to the PA program for 24-27 months straight (most programs discourage, and some explicitly forbid, working outside of the program) while many NP programs can be completed part-time and are more flexible for the student. But you know what? For the most part the PA is a consistent product because the educational standards are, um, standardized, and across the board the training is very consistent. You don't find this consistency among NP programs (don't even get me started on how many different certification pathways and governing bodies have their hands in the NP pool).
Just an anecdotal remark: one of the poorest NP students I ever precepted was just last year. This guy was a military RN who worked in the ED and had done an online FNP program (can't remember which one, sorry) where he literally NEVER had to go on-campus. Thus no classroom interaction with other students. Thus no discussion with other students. His knowledge was so seriously lacking and the required clinical training hours was something like 600 hours (yikes, my PA program was 2400). Don't give me the crap about "his prior nursing experience trumps the need for clinical exposure". Family medicine, outpatient medicine for that matter, is so different from working as an ED nurse. Anyone who's worked in both settings knows that.
But that's just an anecdotal sideline. I admit, I have my bias. I've worked with some damn good NPs but they were products of traditional classroom-based programs with several years of practice. Lots of people and researchers will argue that after a few years in practice, you can't tell the PAs from the NPs in terms of practice style and knowledge. I don't know if that's true either. And I admit that so much of what we learn is on-the-job AFTER we finish training through mentorship and continuing education because it's nigh impossible to learn enough in our abbreviated programs. IMO, we learn enough to recognize what will kill the patient and know how not to kill the patient and then build on that knowledge...😱 Flame on.
(Haven't killed anyone yet after seven years of practice...there for the grace of God go I.)
Lisa


No it is a joke. Something you should not learn online. CMEs I'm okay with not earning a clinical degree online.
 
I have a simple solution to this. Hire PA's and drop the NP's.

Done.

You and your simplistic solutions.


"CRNA's get paid too much? Get rid of them and use AA's!"

Yeah, don't worry that you'll just aggravate the pre-exisiting shortage of anesthesia providers, especially in rural areas. But hey, it's all about you being at teh top of the food chain.


"DNP's dare to use the word doctor? Get rid of the FNP's and replace them with PA's!"

Oh, and that family practice shortage? Don't worry about that either, it will work out. After all, the nurses should be changing bed pans not pretending to be doctors.



Do you have any real solutions that don't sound like something that Dubyah would come up with?
 
You and your simplistic solutions.


"CRNA's get paid too much? Get rid of them and use AA's!"

Yeah, don't worry that you'll just aggravate the pre-exisiting shortage of anesthesia providers, especially in rural areas. But hey, it's all about you being at teh top of the food chain.

I can't claim to be the one who came up with this. The anesthesiologists did. They got tired of the backstabbing CRNA's and decided it's better to work with a group who actually wants to work collaboratively. But I do support it.

If you think about it, having AA's will increase access to anesthesia because they will increase the number of anesthesia providers. AA's have the same job descriptions and scope as CRNA's. This is a win for the patients and a win for the anesthesiologists who have more choices about who they want to work with. If the CRNA's don't like it, well that's life.

If you think about it some more, this is actually good for rural anesthesia care. CRNA's will no longer have to work in those big, bad, dirty cities. If the anesthesiologists kick them out of the OR in the cities, the CRNA's will be free to go to the rural areas which is one rationale they gave states for wanting independence. There are lots of open spaces, fresh air, and sunshine out in the country.

"DNP's dare to use the word doctor? Get rid of the FNP's and replace them with PA's!"

Oh, and that family practice shortage? Don't worry about that either, it will work out. After all, the nurses should be changing bed pans not pretending to be doctors.

See above. Replace CRNA with NP and AA with PA.

Don't be so surprised if physicians start to voice a preference for PA's in the future as the anesthesiologists have done. As core0 said, the physician base is being energized into action as nurses invade our turf. We aren't standing by idly.
 
I can't claim to be the one who came up with this. The anesthesiologists did. They got tired of the backstabbing CRNA's and decided it's better to work with a group who actually wants to work collaboratively. But I do support it.

If you think about it, having AA's will increase access to anesthesia because they will increase the number of anesthesia providers. AA's have the same job descriptions and scope as CRNA's. This is a win for the patients and a win for the anesthesiologists who have more choices about who they want to work with. If the CRNA's don't like it, well that's life.

If you think about it some more, this is actually good for rural anesthesia care. CRNA's will no longer have to work in those big, bad, dirty cities. If the anesthesiologists kick them out of the OR in the cities, the CRNA's will be free to go to the rural areas which is one rationale they gave states for wanting independence. There are lots of open spaces, fresh air, and sunshine out in the country.

I just doubt it will ever happen, I mean how long would it take for there to be enough AA's to cover all the needed slots in the cities? [ed - I should note that I did look into the new AA program opening up in KC]. In addition, if you look at the salaries on gasworks, all of the big money for CRNAs is in the country...although you would have to pay me at least 200K to live in a small town again.

See above. Replace CRNA with NP and AA with PA.

Don't be so surprised if physicians start to voice a preference for PA's in the future as the anesthesiologists have done. As core0 said, the physician base is being energized into action as nurses invade our turf. We aren't standing by idly.

I still doubt it will happen because of how many PA's it would take to fill all the necessary slots. Plus you are forgeting the awesome might of the ANA, which would probably be able to keep public support one the nurse's side.

"I used to be a FNP that worked with underprivilaged and low-income women in the inner city, until the AMA came in and ran us out. They claimed they were doing it to insure better care for the patients by using PAs, but since there weren't enough physicians and PA's to fill the void, this clinic [camera pans to inner-city clinic with boarded-up windows] was closed down.

[camera zooms in for a close up]

Who is getting better care now?"



It would be a public relations slaughter.


[ed - I should also point out I would rather go to PA school than NP school, but there are not any in KC. Actually, I should probably scrap it all and go to film school.]
 
I used to be a FNP that worked with underprivilaged [sic] and low-income women in the inner city, until the AMA came in and ran us out. [Ed: 😕 ] They claimed they were doing it to insure better care for the patients by using PAs, but since there weren't enough physicians and PA's to fill the void, this clinic [camera pans to inner-city clinic with boarded-up windows] was closed down.

That doesn't make any sense. The AMA is a lobbying organization, and has no authority to fire anyone or close anyone down. Likewise, if individual employers prefer to hire PAs over NPs, there's nothing that the ANA (another lobbying organization) can do to stop them, either.
 
] Nurse=Nurse, Doctor=Doctor. Social hierarchy in medical field, Doctor>Nurse. Its really very simple and I think only pre-med/med-students will ever find such a thing a legitimate threat.


:luck:

The problem is, Nurse (RN, LPN) = Nurse, Nurse Practicioner (DNP) = Nurse and Doctor, Doctor (MD, DO) = Doctor

I personally met a DNP who was an orthopaedist - she introduced herself to me a "Doctor Jane Doe." I saw her white coat that said DNP, mentioned that she is a nurse, and her response was "I am a nursing doctor; there are allopathic doctors, osteopathic doctors, and nursing doctors who are full-physicians"

Maybe an MD can say "I'm an MD and your not," but the nurses are saying "I'm a doctor, too"... and the patients are hearing the nurses.
 
the awesome might of the ANA, which would probably be able to keep public support one the nurse's side.

When a patient goes to see a doctor, who does the patient want to see? An NP who is playing doctor or a real doctor?

At the top of the healthcare pecking order, I bet the public support is on the physician side. You hear it again and again. "If it costs the same co-pay, I wanna see a doctor not a nurse."

That's the ultimate ad campaign. "Who do you want to be seen by?"
 
I personally met a DNP who was an orthopaedist - she introduced herself to me a "Doctor Jane Doe." I saw her white coat that said DNP, mentioned that she is a nurse, and her response was "I am a nursing doctor; there are allopathic doctors, osteopathic doctors, and nursing doctors who are full-physicians"

Maybe an MD can say "I'm an MD and your not," but the nurses are saying "I'm a doctor, too"... and the patients are hearing the nurses.

That's why we need state laws to ban such deception.
 
That's why we need state laws to ban such deception.
I agree - I think these people who are making it seem likes its not a threat are really just misinformed. When people become doctors, they tend to become disconnected to an extent with patient opinions (as is the same in other professions, too). Patients see a white coat, and they think its an MD.
 
"I am a nursing doctor; there are allopathic doctors, osteopathic doctors, and nursing doctors who are full-physicians"

It's one thing for DNP's to call themselves "doctors" in front of patients, but it's fraudulent for them to call themselves "physicians". There are laws against that already.
 
I personally met a DNP who was an orthopaedist - she introduced herself to me a "Doctor Jane Doe." I saw her white coat that said DNP, mentioned that she is a nurse, and her response was "I am a nursing doctor; there are allopathic doctors, osteopathic doctors, and nursing doctors who are full-physicians"

That would cross the line. Impersonating a physician is illegal in every state.
 
The Sky is falling the Sky is falling!!!!

Let's ban everyone from wearing white coats except MDs. In fact, maybe we should make all MDs wear gold plated stethoscopes just in case there is confusion because all those people are trying to trick our patients.

Let's make certain that everyone knows that the only REAL doctors are MDs - everyone else, no matter what their field, are not near as smart, fancy, educated, whatever - everyone else is just trying to scam the patients because we all know they secretly want to be doctors, not the field that they chose, studied in and worked at for years.

Let's spread paranoia and fear, make up anecdotal stories, and claim moral superiority when all we are really worried about is our own paycheck.

Where is that South Park cartoon again??

You guys need to get a life 🙄
 
I always thought it was silly for a non physician to call himself doctor. But, as a nurse, I am angered that a DNP would call herself "doctor," especially to a patient.

I know that PAs and NPs serve a valuable purpose, such as daily rounding on a group's patients, and then reporting back to the doc, working alongside physicians in primary, urgent, and emergent care, and many other collaborative roles.

Some probably do okay running solo.

But, I personally want a doc to manage/supervise my health problems, whether inpt or outpt...I'll see a PA, but I would like a doc overseeing

I will say though, for the physician groups that hire PAs and NPs, that give them "equal" responsibilities, they should also offer them some sort of partnership. If I'm way off base, please tell me. But if I'm a PA in a family practice group, and I'm seeing 3-4 pts per hour, doing the same procedures, etc, I should be afforded the same partnership rights as the FP docs...Seems only fair.

Though malpractice prices may be different, and I understand this, but some sort of partnership should be in order if we're all working our a$$es off...
 
"Though malpractice prices may be different, and I understand this, but some sort of partnership should be in order if we're all working our a$$es off..."

production bonuses are the usual mecahnism for evening the score here. work longer and harder and do more procedures= make more money.
 
Old fuddy-duddy...*kidding*
I have a big issue with this as well. One of the PA programs tried it as an experiment for a year or two but it didn't go over so well (can't remember which program). The goal was to "bring the classroom to the student" from a particularly rural area, but it's just not a practical thing to do. A common beef among PA students is that they pretty much have to sign their lives away to the PA program for 24-27 months straight (most programs discourage, and some explicitly forbid, working outside of the program) while many NP programs can be completed part-time and are more flexible for the student. But you know what? For the most part the PA is a consistent product because the educational standards are, um, standardized, and across the board the training is very consistent. You don't find this consistency among NP programs (don't even get me started on how many different certification pathways and governing bodies have their hands in the NP pool).
Just an anecdotal remark: one of the poorest NP students I ever precepted was just last year. This guy was a military RN who worked in the ED and had done an online FNP program (can't remember which one, sorry) where he literally NEVER had to go on-campus. Thus no classroom interaction with other students. Thus no discussion with other students. His knowledge was so seriously lacking and the required clinical training hours was something like 600 hours (yikes, my PA program was 2400). Don't give me the crap about "his prior nursing experience trumps the need for clinical exposure". Family medicine, outpatient medicine for that matter, is so different from working as an ED nurse. Anyone who's worked in both settings knows that.
But that's just an anecdotal sideline. I admit, I have my bias. I've worked with some damn good NPs but they were products of traditional classroom-based programs with several years of practice. Lots of people and researchers will argue that after a few years in practice, you can't tell the PAs from the NPs in terms of practice style and knowledge. I don't know if that's true either. And I admit that so much of what we learn is on-the-job AFTER we finish training through mentorship and continuing education because it's nigh impossible to learn enough in our abbreviated programs. IMO, we learn enough to recognize what will kill the patient and know how not to kill the patient and then build on that knowledge...😱 Flame on.
(Haven't killed anyone yet after seven years of practice...there for the grace of God go I.)
Lisa

Your example is exactly what I would assume is true for all extended learning NPs.
 
DNP vs REAL doctors?

Go back 50 years it was DO vs REAL doctors; how did that one come out? The parallels are very close in many ways.
 
I have a simple solution to this. Hire PA's and drop the NP's.

Done.

You obviously miss the heart of the issue. PAs must be "hired" or they can't work. Dr. bills insurance company, keeps 60%, pays PA 40%
Dr. can hire NP, or NP can open own office next door. In own office, NP can bill insurance company and keep 100%. Dr. gets zero.
 
You obviously miss the heart of the issue. PAs must be "hired" or they can't work. Dr. bills insurance company, keeps 60%, pays PA 40%
Dr. can hire NP, or NP can open own office next door. In own office, NP can bill insurance company and keep 100%. Dr. gets zero.

Oh, the heart of the issue is about money. I get it now....not patient care, not access to patient care, and most importantly, not quality care.

I genuinely think that physicians need to start a campaign to stop this insanity. No more use of the word "doctor". Only physician.....If your provider introduced themselves as a doctor....beware...you just might be seeing a fraud!
 
DNP vs REAL doctors?

Go back 50 years it was DO vs REAL doctors; how did that one come out? The parallels are very close in many ways.


And that was a battle in a different time with a different political seen with different motives. I remember the DO movement as something that was genuine. The nursing motivations are malicious at best. Also, now it's ANA vs MD and DO
 
This can be said for 95% of the people on this forum. Really people.....it's not that serious.

Until people are hurt by the effects! That's serious.

Nursing is synonymous with chiropractic.....poorly trained and unscientific who are working at any cost to advance their profession.
 
The Sky is falling the Sky is falling!!!!

Let's ban everyone from wearing white coats except MDs. In fact, maybe we should make all MDs wear gold plated stethoscopes just in case there is confusion because all those people are trying to trick our patients.

Let's make certain that everyone knows that the only REAL doctors are MDs - everyone else, no matter what their field, are not near as smart, fancy, educated, whatever - everyone else is just trying to scam the patients because we all know they secretly want to be doctors, not the field that they chose, studied in and worked at for years.

Let's spread paranoia and fear, make up anecdotal stories, and claim moral superiority when all we are really worried about is our own paycheck.

Where is that South Park cartoon again??

You guys need to get a life 🙄

It clearly takes somebody who is severly uneducated about this issue to marginalize the seriousness of the DNP movement!

Oh yea, considering your superior science background, you would naturally have an understanding of where much of all scientific knowledge develops from....anecdotal evidence.
 
This would be a non-issue if some professionals would respect each other's roles. Physicians aren't standing by idly and we aren't weak.
 
We need to respect the disciplines of Medicine. Doctors have a distinct role, and nurses have theirs. MDs calling nurses "poorly trained" and nurses calling MDs snobby won't help.
We need to recognize, this should not be for money or glory. It should be for the patient.
 
That's the ultimate ad campaign. "Who do you want to be seen by?"

A tremendous rebuttal that would probably make a very good ad campaign.



Great, now we can look forward to more commercials during the national news about Cialis and the DNP/NP versus MD/PA debate.


Thank god for DVRs.

That doesn't make any sense. The AMA is a lobbying organization, and has no authority to fire anyone or close anyone down. Likewise, if individual employers prefer to hire PAs over NPs, there's nothing that the ANA (another lobbying organization) can do to stop them, either.


I'm talking about ad campaigns designed to sway the feeble-minded populace. Just like all political ads, none of it actually has to make sense.


That's why we need state laws to ban such deception.



I thought the AMA was pushing for a piece of legislation last year to do just that? I'll see if I can find a link.
 
Until people are hurt by the effects! That's serious.

Nursing is synonymous with chiropractic.....poorly trained and unscientific who are working at any cost to advance their profession.

ummmmm yeah, ok.
 
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