DNPs will eventually have unlimited SOP

[peteB]

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PetB, your ego is getting in the way of this. People are entitled to health care and the gap in primary care needs to limited with or without DNPs. If they are medically trained, who cares?! Its FM where the training is minimal anyway

If we're going to fill the gap of MDs with DNPs working alone, we need to make sure that the DNPs are qualified for the job and having the same outcomes. If not, we are doing the public a huge disservice and possibly harm, because they don't know any better, and they expect us to maintain the level of quality for them.

It's not about my ego at all.It's about the patients and the quality of care they get. And I don't think FM training is minimal. It's a 3 year residency. DNPs have 0 years of residency. I'm pretty sure a family doctor would take offensive to what you said.

 

[link2swim06]

The elephant in the room is the AMA/physicians are bitching about DNPs getting rights but we are doing very little to "fix" the up coming physician shortage.

Due to baby boomers and the obesity epidemic the number of pt visits is about to double in the next 2 decades. The AMA/AAMC increased med school spots maybe 20% over the past decade and increased residency spots by maybe 3%?

To the general population at least DNPs have a proposed "solution" while we are just sitting on our asses saying their solution is dangerous.

 

[peteB]

The elephant in the room is the AMA/physicians are bitching about DNPs getting rights but we are doing very little to "fix" the up coming physician shortage.

Due to baby boomers and the obesity epidemic the number of pt visits is about to double in the next 2 decades. The AMA/AAMC increased med school spots maybe 20% over the past decade and increased residency spots by maybe 3%?

To the general population at least DNPs have a proposed "solution" while we are just sitting on our asses saying their solution is dangerous.

What do you propose we do to fix it? Increasing residency spots involves getting more money from the government, which is extremely hard. Are there any other solutions?

 

[link2swim06]

What do you propose we do to fix it? Increasing residency spots involves getting more money from the government, which is extremely hard. Are there any other solutions?

I have always opted for a pretty radical overhaul of the medical educational system which seems terribly inefficient right now.

But apart from that we need more residency spots, which will require more money.


My previous post's point is that it is hard to convince state legislators when we have no solutions ourselves. They are choosing the "best solution" which happens to be DNPs currently.

 

[peteB]

My previous post's point is that it is hard to convince state legislators when we have no solutions ourselves. They are choosing the "best solution" which happens to be DNPs currently.

That's because DNPs are cheap. Maybe the only solution for us is to take a pay cut ourselves.

Also, why is medical school so expensive? The DNP degree is apparently quite cheap. Why is there such a vast difference?

 

[link2swim06]

That's because DNPs are cheap. Maybe the only solution for us is to take a pay cut ourselves.

Also, why is medical school so expensive? The DNP degree is apparently quite cheap. Why is there such a vast difference?

I don't have a time to go on a long rant but med education is still based a study/report done a 100 years ago.

There is no reason we need to pay anyone for the first 2 years of med school. This could all be independent study and free. Half of 4th year is essentially vacation yet we still pay for it.

In short, in our modern era (compared to a 100 years ago), information is easily obtainable through the internet, cheap online courses, and review books. Pre-clinical shelfs and boards can easily ensure everyone has the same level of knowledge.

I rather take a significant pay cut in residency and have almost no loans from med school. This would also allow us to produce more doctors for a cheaper amount.


However, the problem is that medical education is more about tradition than anything else. The radical change which is needed will not happen anytime soon.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I don't have a time to go on a long rant but med education is still based a study/report done a 100 years ago.

There is no reason we need to pay anyone for the first 2 years of med school. This could all be independent study and free. Half of 4th year is essentially vacation yet we still pay for it.

In short, in our modern era (compared to a 100 years ago), information is easily obtainable through the internet, cheap online courses, and review books. Pre-clinical shelfs and boards can easily ensure everyone has the same level of knowledge.
.

This is true of undergrad as well. I don't think we really want a system where everyone just storms wiki and webMD and passes a couple tests on their way to becoming doctors. Yes, there are some things that are inefficient, but without the curriculum and courses, nobody would have any idea how to study or what to study. I rarely attend lecture, but honestly it isnt the chair in a lecture hall that I am paying for.

 

[peteB]

This is true of undergrad as well. I don't think we really want a system where everyone just storms wiki and webMD and passes a couple tests on their way to becoming doctors. Yes, there are some things that are inefficient, but without the curriculum and courses, nobody would have any idea how to study or what to study. I rarely attend lecture, but honestly it isnt the chair in a lecture hall that I am paying for.

In my school, lots of people didn't show up to class at all, and passed tests by studying from board review books since the lectures were awful. The only things they did show up for were anatomy and path labs.

 

[SpecterGT260]

In my school, lots of people didn't show up to class at all, and passed tests by studying from board review books since the lectures were awful. The only things they did show up for were anatomy and path labs.

our lectures are pretty good on average. They hand out notes and lectures are recorded so I don't really deal much with review books unless I am looking for mnemonics or succinct tables

 

[cbrons]

In my school, lots of people didn't show up to class at all, and passed tests by studying from board review books since the lectures were awful. The only things they did show up for were anatomy and path labs.

Same. Most of our lectures are totally worthless.

 

[peteB]

Same. Most of our lectures are totally worthless.

Yup, most of 1st and 2nd year for me was self-study at home, so I don't know what the 50k / year was for...

Actually my school has since made two entire courses self-study online, so I guess they are moving away from lectures and more towards the way most people are studying nowadays.

 

[kpcrew]

Yup, most of 1st and 2nd year for me was self-study at home, so I don't know what the 50k / year was for...

Actually my school has since made two entire courses self-study online, so I guess they are moving away from lectures and more towards the way most people are studying nowadays.

Probably quality control and making sure that you know what material to cover.

 

[peteB]

Probably quality control and making sure that you know what material to cover.

Ok, but does that cost 50k a year? Other schools have just as much quality control at the fraction of the cost. Why does it cost more to set up a curriculum and test students at a medical school as opposed to any other school? 1st and 2nd years are basically like two more years of undergrad from the perspective of administrative management and quality control. My undergrad didn't cost even close to as much as med school is costing me, and our classes had at least twice as many people as med school classes do.

 

[link2swim06]

Ok, but does that cost 50k a year? Other schools have just as much quality control at the fraction of the cost. Why does it cost more to set up a curriculum and test students at a medical school as opposed to any other school? 1st and 2nd years are basically like two more years of undergrad from the perspective of administrative management and quality control. My undergrad didn't cost even close to as much as med school is costing me, and our classes had at least twice as many people as med school classes do.

In short, most med schools have a bunch of random administration people who are overpaid and useless.

Simple economics, when med schools have trouble filling their classes then they will start worrying about costs.

 

[peteB]

In short, most med schools have a bunch of random administration people who are overpaid and useless.

Simple economics, when med schools have trouble filling their classes then they will start worrying about costs.

You hit the nail on the head there. Lots of totally ineffective administrators getting paid way too much. My school's administrators are so terrible, you wouldn't even believe it. They don't talk to each other and they have no idea what's going on. Going to them for assistance is a total waste of time.

Unfortunately people are willing to do just about anything to get into medical school nowadays, so I don't see them having trouble filling classes anytime in the near future, unless something happens to turn people away from medical school. Maybe the changes in healthcare that are coming our way, including the proliferation in DNPs will do it.

 

[cbrons]

In short, most med schools have a bunch of random administration people who are overpaid and useless.

Simple economics, when med schools have trouble filling their classes then they will start worrying about costs.

 

[HughMyron]

You hit the nail on the head there. Lots of totally ineffective administrators getting paid way too much. My school's administrators are so terrible, you wouldn't even believe it. They don't talk to each other and they have no idea what's going on. Going to them for assistance is a total waste of time.

Unfortunately people are willing to do just about anything to get into medical school nowadays, so I don't see them having trouble filling classes anytime in the near future, unless something happens to turn people away from medical school. Maybe the changes in healthcare that are coming our way, including the proliferation in DNPs will do it.

Nah, the med school bubble will never pop as long as we have hordes of naive idealists, bored gunners, and Asians.

 

[peteB]

Nah, the med school bubble will never pop as long as we have hordes of naive idealists, bored gunners, and Asians.

It'll pop when it stops paying well, which could happen sooner than we think.

 

[HughMyron]

It'll pop when it stops paying well, which could happen sooner than we think.

Nobody who pays attention to the news is going into medicine for money anymore.


Some people are doing it because "hurrr durrrr I'ma save the world." (idiots, in my opinion)

Other people are doing it because, for what its worth, being a doctor is still a respectable and prestigious profession.

Other people are doing it because, well, its one of the few careers where you are pretty much guaranteed a job. Nearly half of law school grads are underemployed, but once you finish med school and residency, you WILL have a job, even if you're just a PCP in North Dakota.

And finally, don't underestimate the Asian automatons who study like hell through college, easily make a 3.9/37, and go to medical school because its the culturally ordained thing to do.

 

[peteB]

Nobody who pays attention to the news is going into medicine for money anymore.

I don't know if that's true. Even with everything going on in healthcare, the average doctor still makes at least 3 to 4 times the national average. You can't say that's not attractive. There's really no other job that can guarantee that kind of a salary.

 

[HughMyron]

I don't know if that's true. Even with everything going on in healthcare, the average doctor still makes at least 3 to 4 times the national average. You can't say that's not attractive. There's really no other job that can guarantee that kind of a salary.

Its the opportunity cost.

Instead of going into medicine, put that dedication into a CS or Engg degree, ace the GRE, and work at Intel for 10 years.

You'll make well into the six figures, and you won't be half a million dollars in debt at 30 (or older!) years old.


Also as a doctor, your salary gets ravaged by high tax rates and malpractice insurance, among other things.

 

[Bacchus]

I don't know if that's true. Even with everything going on in healthcare, the average doctor still makes at least 3 to 4 times the national average. You can't say that's not attractive. There's really no other job that can guarantee that kind of a salary.

This I will agree with. My current cost of attendance is more than my parents have made ever in a year.

 

[peteB]

Its the opportunity cost.

Instead of going into medicine, put that dedication into a CS or Engg degree, ace the GRE, and work at Intel for 10 years.

You'll make well into the six figures, and you won't be half a million dollars in debt at 30 (or older!) years old.


Also as a doctor, your salary gets ravaged by high tax rates and malpractice insurance, among other things.

Dude, doing CS or EE and getting into Intel is incredibly hard. They hire less than half a percent of people who apply for jobs. The same is true for companies like Google and Microsoft. Medicine is much much better bet... many times better, even with the debt you go into, and the taxes and the other costs. The average CS salary is not six figures, and there's a lot of unemployed people in the field. Statistics show that the average EE graduate takes over 10 years to break into six figure territory, and even then, far less than the average doctor makes. Plus there's hardly any stability. You're always worried about losing your job because you're easily replaceable. The opportunity cost of medicine is well worth it, moreso than any other field.

 

[ArcGurren]

What is it with this guy and Asians?

 

[peteB]

What is it with this guy and Asians?

Dunno, maybe he got dumped by an asian girl?

 

[ArcGurren]

Its the opportunity cost.

Instead of going into medicine, put that dedication into a CS or Engg degree, ace the GRE, and work at Intel for 10 years.

You'll make well into the six figures, and you won't be half a million dollars in debt at 30 (or older!) years old.


Also as a doctor, your salary gets ravaged by high tax rates and malpractice insurance, among other things.

wtf are you talking about?

Having a CS or Engineering degree does not guarantee you a job. The job market there is not amazing. I have friends with CS degrees from good schools who were unemployed for nearly two years before they went back to get MBAs or management degrees before they could find jobs. They aren't making anywhere near six figures and the competition within the business is still difficult so upward mobility isn't always possible.

Working in those fields is not all fun and games. It can be absolutely miserable (which can be said about many fields, but that's besides the point). You act as though they love their lives. Having at least two family members who work in those fields, it's a lot of gruntwork, very monotonous, and very very tedious and times. Your bosses are hard to deal with at times and very often they're not even qualified to be running the business.

Is being a doctor a gold mine? No. But we're way better off even with minimal training than many would prefer to think. The grass really always seems greener on the other side to most med students even when it really isn't that green.

 

[ArcGurren]

Dunno, maybe he got dumped by an asian girl?

his loss

 

[peteB]

wtf are you talking about?

Having a CS or Engineering degree does not guarantee you a job. The job market there is not amazing. I have friends with CS degrees from good schools who were unemployed for nearly two years before they went back to get MBAs or management degrees before they could find jobs. They aren't making anywhere near six figures and the competition within the business is still difficult so upward mobility isn't always possible.

Working in those fields is not all fun and games. It can be absolutely miserable (which can be said about many fields, but that's besides the point). You act as though they love their lives. Having at least two family members who work in those fields, it's a lot of gruntwork, very monotonous, and very very tedious and times. Your bosses are hard to deal with at times and very often they're not even qualified to be running the business.

Is being a doctor a gold mine? No. But we're way better off even with minimal training than many would prefer to think. The grass really always seems greener on the other side to most med students even when it really isn't that green.

👍 Totally true. I've heard this grass is greener on the other side argument so much from med students. Truth is in our case it's usually greener on our side no matter how much we think it's not. That's why people are flocking to medicine and even going to the carribbean for an MD. How many people are going to the Caribbean for a law or engineering degree?

 

[SpecterGT260]

Its the opportunity cost.

Instead of going into medicine, put that dedication into a CS or Engg degree, ace the GRE, and work at Intel for 10 years.

You'll make well into the six figures, and you won't be half a million dollars in debt at 30 (or older!) years old.


Also as a doctor, your salary gets ravaged by high tax rates and malpractice insurance, among other things.

how did I know someone was going to jump in with this crap....

he said GUARANTEED. Does anyone who wants a job at intel have one? I mean... you might as well have said "Psh the smart thing to do is just go win the lottery!" slightly different odds, but the effect is the same. Nobody is guaranteed a high paying job going the route you described. Use your head before you post..... seriously

 

[Lokhtar]

Its the opportunity cost.

Instead of going into medicine, put that dedication into a CS or Engg degree, ace the GRE, and work at Intel for 10 years.

You'll make well into the six figures, and you won't be half a million dollars in debt at 30 (or older!) years old.


Also as a doctor, your salary gets ravaged by high tax rates and malpractice insurance, among other things.

Haha, I was a programmar for a while before med school.

Go ahead and try that. Good luck.

 

[cbrons]

And finally, don't underestimate the Asian automatons who study like hell through college, easily make a 3.9/37, and go to medical school because its the culturally ordained thing to do.

I'm guessing ur one of them?

 

[HughMyron]

I'm guessing ur one of them?

How many people in America can get a 37+? What are the odds I'm one of them LOL.

Nah, I'm just an annoyed, bored, and cynical premed. Like we all were at one point I guess.

 

[cbrons]

How many people in America can get a 37+? What are the odds I'm one of them LOL.

Nah, I'm just an annoyed, bored, and cynical premed. Like we all were at one point I guess.

I've been a brooding cynic since I was 5 years old, so I can relate

 

[link2swim06]

I have friend who graduated with CS degrees who make 80K. They also work 60+ hours a week and take "call" incase the product crashes. Not exactly "greener" imo.

Sounds like a doctor's schedule but the salary is missing a digit, instead of 180K they get 80K.

 

[strongboy2005]

I'd rather have a midlevel than an intern honestly. For basic patient cases, yes, I would say that is accurate. For complex patient cases, senior residents start showing superiority.

This quote is ridiculous. I am a 4th year medical student just finishing my IM Sub-I. There was a 2nd year PA student there who will be a "midlevel" in a few short months. My medical knowledge and clinical/procedural skills DESTROY her in EVERY way. I knew more than her in EVERY area of medicine, and she commonly came to me for advice in her workups. There is absolutely no comparison between her education and mine. A 4th year medical student clearly commands a greater fund of medical knowledge than any midlevel could hope to have.

 

[Bacchus]

This quote is ridiculous. I am a 4th year medical student just finishing my IM Sub-I. There was a 2nd year PA student there who will be a "midlevel" in a few short months. My medical knowledge and clinical/procedural skills DESTROY her in EVERY way. I knew more than her in EVERY area of medicine, and she commonly came to me for advice in her workups. There is absolutely no comparison between her education and mine. A 4th year medical student clearly commands a greater fund of medical knowledge than any midlevel could hope to have.

This is where experience comes into play. A newly minted PA or DNP, sure you might know more than them. I too found myself having to explain some things. However, after a while the midlevel gets enough repetition to obviously outperform a medical student. Day 1 of working? Maybe not. A few years down the road? Obviously.

 

[cbrons]

This is where experience comes into play. A newly minted PA or DNP, sure you might know more than them. I too found myself having to explain some things. However, after a while the midlevel gets enough repetition to obviously outperform a medical student. Day 1 of working? Maybe not. A few years down the road? Obviously.

I blame the NP problem on those damn DOs. We should never have allowed them to get full practice rights.... now everyone wants in on this game. U give an inch, you lose a mile course im jk

 

[yuiness]

This is where experience comes into play. A newly minted PA or DNP, sure you might know more than them. I too found myself having to explain some things. However, after a while the midlevel gets enough repetition to obviously outperform a medical student. Day 1 of working? Maybe not. A few years down the road? Obviously.

The medical student isn't going to stay in the same place either, though. While that midlevel is gaining experience, so is the med student, who has now become an intern, resident, attending, etc. The problem with the midlevel is that, without a strictly defined residency/post-graduate training period, there is much more variability in the quality of a practicing midlevel. Despite this, that midlevel who may not be able to outperform the medical student on day 1 of working is still given the same rights as that midlevel who has been working for several years and whose knowledge is clearly superior.

If the bar for getting those privileges is graduating from PA school, then the legislation should be based on the abilities of the people that meet those requirements (even if they've only met those bare minimum requirements). You're not going to grant a med student or a resident the rights to perform surgery independently right now because "once they've had a few years of experience," they will be able to do it flawlessly. You give them that right once they have finished training and proven that they can do it flawlessly.

 

[deleted451730]

That's all well and good, but I don't think you understand that they accepted that role initially only as a means to gradually gain greater and greater autonomy.

Ask yourself if this NP in this interview will accept the role you laid out for her (see easy patients alone/ sick ones with the physician, dictate notes, put in orders, etc.):

[YOUTUBE]ai0PSXcd6dw[/YOUTUBE]

(its 4 minutes)

That physician does not look happy to be in that conversation at all lol. And the NP's responses sound very canned....

But anyway... I think the doctor--and by doctor I mean MD/DO--hit the nail on the head. NPs (and PAs) were created for a specific role, and they are truly awesome at their jobs. But I agree, I have a problem when they are trying to turn their fields into a workaround to med school, regardless of the healthcare condition of the U.S. Go to med school if you want to be a physician.

 

[MiracleforMD]

wtf are you talking about?

Having a CS or Engineering degree does not guarantee you a job. The job market there is not amazing. I have friends with CS degrees from good schools who were unemployed for nearly two years before they went back to get MBAs or management degrees before they could find jobs. They aren't making anywhere near six figures and the competition within the business is still difficult so upward mobility isn't always possible.

Working in those fields is not all fun and games. It can be absolutely miserable (which can be said about many fields, but that's besides the point). You act as though they love their lives. Having at least two family members who work in those fields, it's a lot of gruntwork, very monotonous, and very very tedious and times. Your bosses are hard to deal with at times and very often they're not even qualified to be running the business.

Is being a doctor a gold mine? No. But we're way better off even with minimal training than many would prefer to think. The grass really always seems greener on the other side to most med students even when it really isn't that green.

People really perpetuate the myth. I don't get it.

 

[peteB]

This quote is ridiculous. I am a 4th year medical student just finishing my IM Sub-I. There was a 2nd year PA student there who will be a "midlevel" in a few short months. My medical knowledge and clinical/procedural skills DESTROY her in EVERY way. I knew more than her in EVERY area of medicine, and she commonly came to me for advice in her workups. There is absolutely no comparison between her education and mine. A 4th year medical student clearly commands a greater fund of medical knowledge than any midlevel could hope to have.

What about a DNP? They have more years of training than a PA and a doctoral degree. Are they better than PAs? Many of them have worked as nurses for many years prior to DNP training, too.

 

[swamprat]

What about a DNP? They have more years of training than a PA and a doctoral degree. Are they better than PAs? Many of them have worked as nurses for many years prior to DNP training, too.

My opinion is it depends.. being a nurse for x amount of years doesn't make u a better diagnostician it just makes u more experienced with dealing with people - but their role was never to diagnose so the experience doesn't rlly play. And to argue for the PAs, they also usually require extensive hours of on the job healthcare related work before acceptance. On a side note I think MDs are probably more intelligent on average than NP/PAs (I'm not saying there are not brilliant midlevels or dumb MDs, i know a few in my class..)..but lets face it not everyone can get into medical school. For example I had a friend who wanted to go to medical school but got a 18 on the mcat, didn't want to take it again, felt discouraged studied for months, 3.4 gpa give or take and went to pa school. Did he take the easier way out? Maybe.. but obviously couldn't make the cut regardless. Whys this matter? Well maybe it doesn't but if someone I knew was ill I'd want the brightest people taking care of them, along with proper training. And the DNP from what I get is not rlly a clinical doctorate it's just an excuse for educators to make more money and to make nurses seem more legit.

 

[peteB]

I have friend who graduated with CS degrees who make 80K. They also work 60+ hours a week and take "call" incase the product crashes. Not exactly "greener" imo.

Sounds like a doctor's schedule but the salary is missing a digit, instead of 180K they get 80K.

Well, you can make north of 100 if you get a masters or even more with a PhD, or have 10+ years of experience in the field, but at that point you might as well have become a doctor. (assuming you were interested in medicine too) I know a programmer who is making 125k, but he has his masters and 12 years of experience.

However, there is no upper limit for people with CS degrees, while there are effective upper limits for doctors. The guy who invented dropbox (one example of many) is a CS graduate who is now worth 400 million. There are virtually no billionaires who are doctors as far as I know--correct me if I'm wrong-- but several who are engineers (founders of Amazon, Facebook, Google, Yahoo, Oracle, etc, etc). So it's not terrible for everyone, just the average guy. If you want to gamble for the big bucks, that's a good place to be, but for everyone else, I'd say medicine wins.

Of course no one should go into medicine unless they are interested in doing it. If you are more interested in CS, the lesser average pay is worth it.

 

[peteB]

For example I had a friend who wanted to go to medical school but got a 18 on the mcat, didn't want to take it again, felt discouraged studied for months, 3.4 gpa give or take and went to pa school.

The same thing happened with the brother of one of my classmates. He couldn't make the cut for med school after 2 tries, and then decided to go the PA route. I've also heard of someone who was failing out of med school and went PA, I don't know if that's true though. Does PA school take med school dropouts? In that case it'd be pretty obvious that the quality of students there is less.

 

[Noyoudinit]

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDWICRbomrA[/YOUTUBE]

 

[deleted6669]

What about a DNP? They have more years of training than a PA and a doctoral degree. Are they better than PAs? Many of them have worked as nurses for many years prior to DNP training, too.

if you look at clinical hrs of training, ANY level of pa training(even non-degree pa's) have more clinical hrs than a dnp.
an msn np has 500-800 hrs max.
a dnp has 1000-1500 hrs max
a certificate level pa has more hard science (non-fluff) courses and more clinical hrs( 2000-3000), than a dnp. they(dnp) didn't add clinical courses to go from msn to dnp. they added management level courses and a few hundred hrs of clinicals.
pa, whether at the certificate, a.s., b.s., or m.s. level is still the more consistent product. we have one board exam we must pass, and we have to keep passing it every 10 years to keep certified. they have multiple avenues to certification including "portfolio review" for those who "don't do well on standardized tests."
don't be taken in by the "years of training" for an np program. many of these years are part time and the clinicals for each specialty are significantly lower hrs than either md/do or pa. make the decision that several presidents of the american college of emergency physicians made; "PA's are the non-physician provider of choice in the emergency department".

 

[deleted6669]

The same thing happened with the brother of one of my classmates. He couldn't make the cut for med school after 2 tries, and then decided to go the PA route. I've also heard of someone who was failing out of med school and went PA, I don't know if that's true though. Does PA school take med school dropouts? In that case it'd be pretty obvious that the quality of students there is less.

I actually know a few folks who tried for years to get into pa school then applied md to their state schools and got in their first cycle. it works both ways. the schools look for different things. md/do want stellar grades/research/high mcats, etc. while pa programs want different prereqs and place a lot of value on significant prior high level paid medical experience. a guy with a 4.0 and a first author publication based on ms level basic science research but zero pt care experience probably won't get into pa school. a 10 yr paramedic with 2 tours in Afghanistan and a 3.5 with a bs in medical anthropology and 2 yrs teaching paramedics probably won't get into med school.

 

[peteB]

if you look at clinical hrs of training, ANY level of pa training(even non-degree pa's) have more clinical hrs than a dnp.
an msn np has 500-800 hrs max.
a dnp has 1000-1500 hrs max
a certificate level pa has more hard science (non-fluff) courses and more clinical hrs( 2000-3000), than a dnp. they(dnp) didn't add clinical courses to go from msn to dnp. they added management level courses and a few hundred hrs of clinicals.
pa, whether at the certificate, a.s., b.s., or m.s. level is still the more consistent product. we have one board exam we must pass, and we have to keep passing it every 10 years to keep certified. they have multiple avenues to certification including "portfolio review" for those who "don't do well on standardized tests."
don't be taken in by the "years of training" for an np program. many of these years are part time and the clinicals for each specialty are significantly lower hrs than either md/do or pa. make the decision that several presidents of the american college of emergency physicians made; "PA's are the non-physician provider of choice in the emergency department".

Why do we even have DNPs then? Why don't we just have PAs as our midlevel providers? I think PAs should campaign and make these facts known to the public and lawmakers.

 

[deleted6669]

organized medicine has zero control over np's or nurses as they self regulate under the boards of nursing.
pa's are regulated by boards of medicine. we can't just decide tomorrow " pa's can now do brain surgery solo". if one np program found 1 neurosurgeon to train them as primary surgeons they could then put out a statement that "np's practice cutting edge neurosurgery" and set up a residency in which neurosurg np's train neurosurg np's. it would just take 1 hospital to privilege them and voila, np's doing neurosurgery supported by crna's .
check this out:
http://www.ena.org/media/PressReleases/Pages/ANCC and ENA Announce New Portfolio.aspx
compare that to the steps a pa needs to take to qualify to take the certificate of added qualifications exam in emergency medicine:
http://www.nccpa.net/Emergencymedicine.aspx

note in both of the above who validates the procedural requirements.....

 

[peteB]

organized medicine has zero control over np's or nurses as they self regulate under the boards of nursing.
pa's are regulated by boards of medicine. we can't just decide tomorrow " pa's can now do brain surgery solo". if one np program found 1 neurosurgeon to train them as primary surgeons they could then put out a statement that "np's practice cutting edge neurosurgery" and set up a residency in which neurosurg np's train neurosurg np's. it would just take 1 hospital to privilege them and voila, np's doing neurosurgery supported by crna's .
check this out:
http://www.ena.org/media/PressReleases/Pages/ANCC and ENA Announce New Portfolio.aspx
compare that to the steps a pa needs to take to qualify to take the certificate of added qualifications exam in emergency medicine:
http://www.nccpa.net/Emergencymedicine.aspx

note in both of the above who validates the procedural requirements.....

How does the government just allow the nursing boards to have free reign like that? What's the point of licensing then, if one profession can just start giving out licenses allowing their members to perform the work of another profession? Why even have boards or licenses?