Do Ad-Coms adjust for the varying rigor at different undergrad schools?

[inycepoo]

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Well if we judge based on the metric of how much the students complain about how hard their school is, then Yale must be the hardest school that ever has or ever will exist.

Thank you for your meaningful contribution to the conversation.

 

[inycepoo]

can't we just live in a world where a 3.8 from a school such as arizona state university is viewed the same as a 3.8 from harvard?

That is what this whole thread is about. dyrtft?

 

[cyaneidae]

Some schools take these 2 science/1 non-science and append them to a very personalized committee (or advisor) letter that is very formulaic (which I love because I know for a given school exactly what I'll find , topic-wise,and where I'll find it within the text) but very informative as it synthesizes the student's academic record, service, research, and clinical experiences, and sometimes some personal things about family, the transition from HS to college, etc.

Some schools are small enough that students never have huge lecture hall courses, even in pre-reqs, and they are able to garner letters from faculty in small seminar classes in advanced level material.

So, the medical schools are tilting the playing field toward the pre-med powerhouses (the Ivies, Hopkins, UVA, UNC-CH, Duke, Emory, ND, UChicago, WashU come to my mind)and some of the liberal arts colleges, at the expense of some of the big schools that don't have committee letters and where students rarely see a classroom of < 100.

When you say "ND" you're talking about Notre Dame, correct? That just caught my eye because Notre Dame has a committee letter exactly as you described in the first paragraph (and also has probably 200-300 premeds apply every year plus a 80-85% acceptance rate).

I've heard great things about how certain committee letters are received by med schools, but I haven't interviewed myself yet so I don't know how mine will be received. I developed a close relationship with my committee letter writer over 3yrs, though (as well as close relationships with my individual letter writers), so in my case I'm pretty happy with the idea of a committee letter vs only individual letters.

But I can understand why people would think it too much extra work or a discredit to their application, depending on the circumstances of the applicant and the abilities of/relationship with their letter writer.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Can't we just live in a world where a 3.8 from a school such as Arizona State University is viewed the same as a 3.8 from Harvard?

If only we had some sort of test that was standard. Like a standardized test.

 

[LizzyM]

When you say "ND" you're talking about Notre Dame, correct?

Mais oui, Notre Dame.

 

[osprey099]

Can't we just live in a world where a 3.8 from a school such as Arizona State University is viewed the same as a 3.8 from Harvard?

Then everyone would go to Arizona State University and nobody will go to Harvard.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Thank you for your meaningful contribution to the conversation.

Sorry I don't know any better, I'm not from Yale.

And lol at conversation. All this thread has been is Yale kids bemoaning how difficult their rigorous academic lives are. We get it...

 

[Plue00]

If only we had some sort of test that was standard. Like a standardized test.

Oh, like a test people can take multiple times? Or do you mean a test where someone can spend a whole year studying for? Maybe a test that only tests you on 4 science classes and disregards the rest of the classes someone took in college. 🙄

 

[inycepoo]

Sorry I don't know any better, I'm not from Yale.

And lol at conversation. All this thread has been is Yale kids bemoaning how difficult their rigorous academic lives. We get it...

Then you are unfortunately only selectively reading. Only 2 Yalies have posted ITT. That is not "all." We don't even account for 50% of posts here.

 

[inycepoo]

Oh, like a test people can take multiple times? Or do you mean a test where someone can spend a whole year studying for? Maybe a test that only tests you on 4 science classes and disregards the rest of the classes someone took in college. 🙄

.

 

[Anathema]

Oh, like a test people can take multiple times? Or do you mean a test where someone can spend a whole year studying for? Maybe a test that only tests you on 4 science classes and disregards the rest of the classes someone took in college. 🙄

On my MCAT I saw gen chem, physics, general biology, biochem, o-chem, physiology and even some cell bio topics. Seems like the gist of a pre-med education.

 

[cyaneidae]

Mais oui, Notre Dame.

Merci. =) After watching college hockey games and seeing both Notre Dame and the University of North Dakota get abbreviated as UND or ND, I often feel the need to clarify what school the abbreviation refers to.

 

[Dbate]

If only we had some sort of test that was standard. Like a standardized test.

The MCAT is there for a reason. But one's academic record holds equal if not more import in admissions decisions.

I honestly feel that students at top schools have to do well on the MCAT otherwise they are totally screwed.

A student at MIT with a 3.5 and a 30 on the MCAT will not have the same opportunities for med school admissions as a Berkeley student with a 3.8 and a 30, even if the MCAT indicates they are of equal ability.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Oh, like a test people can take multiple times? Or do you mean a test where someone can spend a whole year studying for? Maybe a test that only tests you on 4 science classes and disregards the rest of the classes someone took in college. 🙄

I forgot Yale students were only allowed to take it once, could only study a week, and were burdened by the secret science they don't teach the dumb dumbs at other schools who only learn those 4 classes.

Say what you want about the MCAT, but it's a level playing field. If you are really smarter than your GPA suggests, then you should show it on the MCAT.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Then you are unfortunately only selectively reading. Only 2 Yalies have posted ITT. That is not "all." We don't even account for 50% of posts here.

Fine, I'll edit my statement. All YOU'VE been doing is complaining.

The MCAT is there for a reason. But one's academic record holds equal if not more import in admissions decisions.

I honestly feel that students at top schools have to do well on the MCAT otherwise they are totally screwed.

A student at MIT with a 3.5 and a 30 on the MCAT will not have the same opportunities for med school admissions as a Berkeley student with a 3.8 and a 30, even if the MCAT indicates they are of equal ability.

I do wish grading was more standardized across colleges, but if you couldn't step up to the plate then you probably should've went to a different school.

 

[inycepoo]

I forgot Yale students were only allowed to take it once, could only study a week, and were burdened by the secret science they don't teach the dumb dumbs at other schools who only learn those 4 classes.

Say what you want about the MCAT, but it's a level playing field. If you are really smarter than your GPA suggests, then you should show it on the MCAT.

Your increasingly feeble attempts to ridicule Yale are clouding your judgment. Plue00 has nothing to do with Yale.

 

[mcloaf]

Oh, like a test people can take multiple times? Or do you mean a test where someone can spend a whole year studying for? Maybe a test that only tests you on 4 science classes and disregards the rest of the classes someone took in college. 🙄

This thread gets more pathetic every time I come back.

Now it's not enough that nobody can understand the greatness of the classmates with whom you're competing, but now it's not fair that you're evaluated by a standardized test against all these supposedly weaker students from state schools? You can't have it both ways. If you're really used to competing at such a high level then why don't you just rock a 40, since you're being graded against such a huge number of state school peons?

 

[Dbate]

I forgot Yale students were only allowed to take it once, could only study a week, and were burdened by the secret science they don't teach the dumb dumbs at other schools who only learn those 4 classes.

Say what you want about the MCAT, but it's a level playing field. If you are really smarter than your GPA suggests, then you should show it on the MCAT.

That is not entirely accurate. I had limited time to study for the MCAT the first time (only about 2 weeks because of a summer internship in Brussels).

Went in and scored a 30 in September. On my retake in January, I scored a 35.

So how would adcoms know which is a more accurate indicator of "smarts"

 

[inycepoo]

This thread gets more pathetic every time I come back.

Now it's not enough that nobody can understand the greatness of the classmates with whom you're competing, but now it's not fair that you're evaluated by a standardized test against all these supposedly weaker students from state schools? You can't have it both ways. If you're really used to competing at such a high level then why don't you just rock a 40, since you're being graded against such a huge number of state school peons?

I love how Yale is being blamed for every post here that doesn't tickle the fancy of those reading said posts. I feel bad for Plue00. (Sorry, man.)

 

[mcloaf]

I love how Yale is being blamed for every post here that doesn't tickle the fancy of those reading said posts.

Brb, looking for the part of my post where I typed Yale. Can I borrow your glasses?

 

[inycepoo]

Brb, looking for the part of my post where I typed Yale. Can I borrow your glasses?

Sure, but Yale glasses are quite different. Perhaps they wouldn't fit you.

"Now it's not enough that nobody can understand the greatness of the classmates with whom you're competing, but now it's not fair that you're evaluated by a standardized test against all these supposedly weaker students from state schools?"

Plue00, the individual whom you quoted, never said anything of the like in bold. Or maybe he did, but your words were taken to refer to what Dbate and I had talked about.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Your increasingly feeble attempts to ridicule Yale are clouding your judgment. Plue00 has nothing to do with Yale.

I didn't call plue a yale student, and the point of the post was not meant to ridicule yale (I don't see how it even ridiculed yale at all?). It was meant to point out that the MCAT is standardized...

 

[inycepoo]

I forgot Yale students were only allowed to take it once, could only study a week, and were burdened by the secret science they don't teach the dumb dumbs at other schools who only learn those 4 classes.

Say what you want about the MCAT

If the "you" didn't refer to Yale students or Plue00, then okay. Who am I to interpret what you said? I'm just a premed, oh mighty medical student.

I didn't call plue a yale student, and the point of the post was not meant to ridicule yale (I don't see how it even ridiculed yale at all?). It was meant to point out that the MCAT is standardized...

I could personally care less about my school being ridiculed, but it was humorous.

 

[mcloaf]

Sure, but Yale glasses are quite different.

"Now it's not enough that nobody can understand the greatness of the classmates with whom you're competing, but now it's not fair that you're evaluated by a standardized test against all these supposedly weaker students from state schools?"

Plue00, the individual whom you quoted, never said anything of the like in bold.

Hmm, I guess you and I have different interpretations of his meaning.

It's funny because I didn't go to a state school and I think we're probably on the same page that 1)Ivy/top school students get a small boost and 2)in most cases this small boost is probably justified. Mostly I find the entitled and condescending attitudes annoying.


Gonna try to stop posting ITT since it's never going to get anywhere.

 

[sliceofbread136]

That is not entirely accurate. I had limited time to study for the MCAT the first time (only about 2 weeks because of a summer internship in Brussels).

Went in and scored a 30 in September. On my retake in January, I scored a 35.

So how would adcoms know which is a more accurate indicator of "smarts"

That post was meant to be a general one, not a direct statement to you. Sorry it came off that way.

What I meant was that in general, if your GPA is lower due to higher academic rigor then you should be able to show it with your MCAT, which you did with a 35.

 

[inycepoo]

Hmm, I guess you and I have different interpretations of his meaning.

It's funny because I didn't go to a state school and I think we're probably on the same page that 1)Ivy/top school students get a small boost and 2)in most cases this small boost is probably justified. Mostly I find the entitled and condescending attitudes annoying.


Gonna try to stop posting ITT since it's never going to get anywhere.

I have already apologized for my previously unintentional tone of voice (reasons provided in said apologetic post), unless you TL'DR'ed that, which is very understandable. I would've probably ignored myself too.

I do not believe that tone has resurfaced today, albeit the sarcasm is hard to resist.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I could personally care less about my school being ridiculed, but it was humorous.

So please stop downplaying ours. You have no idea what we're like, and we have no idea what your experiences are like. It's insulting.

Hmmmmm

 

[inycepoo]

Hmmmmm

Notice that I said "us" and "our experiences." Not the school. We are not the school. I feel insulted when our experiences and accomplishments are downplayed by seemingly innocuous comments.

Please feel free to cite me more. Perhaps it will raise my impact factor. May I recommend Zotero? It's pretty nifty. I use it all the time for SDN battles.

 

[Plue00]

Bro no way. Link me to this awesome test? Is it popular at all?

I don't know man, I would imagine such a test wouldn't exist due to all the flaws I listed about it.

On my MCAT I saw gen chem, physics, general biology, biochem, o-chem, physiology and even some cell bio topics. Seems like the gist of a pre-med education.

Do you have anything else to say about the other stuff I pointed out about it? It doesn't test any of the hundreds of other majors available at different schools.

 

[mcloaf]

I don't know man, I would imagine such a test wouldn't exist due to all the flaws I listed about it.

Life's just not fair huh.

 

[Plue00]

This thread gets more pathetic every time I come back.

Now it's not enough that nobody can understand the greatness of the classmates with whom you're competing, but now it's not fair that you're evaluated by a standardized test against all these supposedly weaker students from state schools? You can't have it both ways. If you're really used to competing at such a high level then why don't you just rock a 40, since you're being graded against such a huge number of state school peons?

I actually go to a state school and I'm willing to admit that there are many colleges harder than mine based on tests I've seen from top, top schools.

Good try though. 👎

 

[sliceofbread136]

Notice that I said "us" and "our experiences." Not the school. We are not the school. I feel insulted when our experiences and accomplishments are downplayed by seemingly innocuous comments.

Please feel free to cite me more. Perhaps it will raise my impact factor. May I recommend Zotero? It's pretty nifty. I use it all the time for SDN battles.

Students are part of the school though... A ridicule of the school could very well be inclusive of the students.

 

[mcloaf]

I actually go to a state school and I'm willing to admit that there are many colleges harder than mine based on tests I've seen from top, top schools.

Good try though. 👎

It doesn't matter where you go to school. You either think the MCAT offers a relatively level playing field for most or you don't. Clearly opinions differ.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I actually go to a state school and I'm willing to admit that there are many colleges harder than mine based on tests I've seen from top, top schools.

Good try though. 👎

Which is why we have standardized testing, so state school kids can show that they are indeed as good as the top school kids AND so the top school kids can show that their GPA may not be reflective of their true abilities.

 

[Dbate]

I actually go to a state school and I'm willing to admit that there are many colleges harder than mine based on tests I've seen from top, top schools.

Good try though. 👎

I think it has to do with pride to some extent.

I don't have a problem admitting that it is harder to get good grades at Princeton (that is simply a fact).

And the orgo test from MIT was 10x harder than at Yale.

 

[sliceofbread136]

It doesn't matter where you go to school. You either think the MCAT offers a relatively level playing field for most or you don't. Clearly opinions differ.

Agreed. The MCAT is far from perfect but I think it does its job adequately.

 

[osprey099]

Which is why we have standardized testing, so state school kids can show that they are indeed as good as the top school kids AND so the top school kids can show that their GPA may not be reflective of their true abilities.

I agree

 

[inycepoo]

Students are part of the school though... A ridicule of the school could very well be inclusive of the students.

But I think we're all too flawed and too heterogeneous to have that be true for any one of our alma maters. Or perhaps it's the outside perception that matters the most. Maybe.

 

[inycepoo]

Agreed. The MCAT is far from perfect but I think it does its job adequately.

I see the MCAT/SAT as the same as our American system of "meritocracy," another SDN favorite with regards to the top school debate.

We know it sucks, but what's the genius alternative proposal of those who oppose it so much?

 

[osprey099]

Which is why we have standardized testing, so state school kids can show that they are indeed as good as the top school kids AND so the top school kids can show that their GPA may not be reflective of their true abilities.

Personally, I would like to see the MCAT make up ~70% of admissions and everything else make up the other 30%. It is the only objective measure in the entire process.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

If only we had some sort of test that was standard. Like a standardized test.

👍👍
Oh a test that pretty much sums up your pre-medical education and accounts for inflated GPA based on non-sci classes?😀

I forgot Yale students were only allowed to take it once, could only study a week, and were burdened by the secret science they don't teach the dumb dumbs at other schools who only learn those 4 classes.

Say what you want about the MCAT, but it's a level playing field. If you are really smarter than your GPA suggests, then you should show it on the MCAT.

👍

That is not entirely accurate. I had limited time to study for the MCAT the first time (only about 2 weeks because of a summer internship in Brussels).

Went in and scored a 30 in September. On my retake in January, I scored a 35.

So how would adcoms know which is a more accurate indicator of "smarts"

We can all have valid reasons, but to adcoms, they are still excuses. My gf of 2 years broke up with me the day before my MCAT.... but it still sounds like an excuse.

I also got a 35. Provided that you and I go to the same medical school, can you say with confidence that you will perform better than I JUST because you were educated at Yale while I was educated at Baylor?

The level of success is not based on where you go to school or even your talent, but largely on your drive and hard work.

As to what is a more accurate indicator of "smarts", its always the most recent score because it conveys what you know NOW as opposed to what you knew months or years before.

I actually enjoy some of your posts because youre a cynical dick like me, but sometimes you really go overboard and you should watch out for that.

 

[LizzyM]

Which is why we have standardized testing, so state school kids can show that they are indeed as good as the top school kids AND so the top school kids can show that their GPA may not be reflective of their true abilities.

The problem is that these high stakes exams often favor those who have the resources (free time and cash) to devote to preparation. It has also been shown that psychological factors can influence success in these high-stakes exams. (A group told that people like them do not do well will do more poorly on average compared to a similar group given a neutral message before the test.)

The single high stakes exam doesn't take into account work ethic over the long haul and so many of my fellow adcoms prefer GPA over MCAT when selecting applicants. As always, YMMV.

 

[Plue00]

I think it has to do with pride to some extent.

I don't have a problem admitting that it is harder to get good grades at Princeton (that is simply a fact).

And the orgo test from MIT was 10x harder than at Yale.

I agree.

It's also good to note that not all state schools are bad, although some of my education professor do admit that most state schools are doing things wrong for the average-nonSDN student.

UVA/WM/UBC/UCLA/UNC/UMich students may not be able to compete with top 10 students on average, but those state schools are significantly better than 99% of the schools out there (~4000 schools in total).

 

[gettheleadout]

The problem is that these high stakes exams often favor those who have the resources (free time and cash) to devote to preparation. It has also been shown that psychological factors can influence success in these high-stakes exams. (A group told that people like them do not do well will do more poorly on average compared to a similar group given a neutral message before the test.)

Doesn't this work in favor of top school students then? They have access to a "more rigorous" education to better prepare them in the tested subjects and can expect that someone in their position will do well on the MCAT simply because of their education. A great example would be Dbate's mention that Yale students know the internal average is a 34.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

The problem is that these high stakes exams often favor those who have the resources (free time and cash) to devote to preparation. It has also been shown that psychological factors can influence success in these high-stakes exams. (A group told that people like them do not do well will do more poorly on average compared to a similar group given a neutral message before the test.)

The single high stakes exam doesn't take into account work ethic over the long haul and so many of my fellow adcoms prefer GPA over MCAT when selecting applicants. As always, YMMV.

But then how would you treat students who had a dip in the GPAs due to personal issues, responsibilities, and lack of resources?

I, for example, did not get my act together until senior year (hence the 3.4) but then did an SMP at UNTHSC (3.87). Im not making excuses, but I do agree with you that a lack of resources and personal obligations/issues are more prevalent in lower income families that cant afford higher level education at expensive colleges (like the Ivies).

 

[LizzyM]

Doesn't this work in favor of top school students then? They have access to a "more rigorous" education to better prepare them in the tested subjects and can expect that someone in their position will do well on the MCAT simply because of their education. A great example would be Dbate's mention that Yale students know the internal average is a 34.

It tends to favor students who are rich. We know that despite efforts to make the top schools accessible to kids who don't come from wealth, the admissions process for college greatly favors the rich. Then use a high stakes exam that favors the rich and you've screwed the lower middle class kid twice, once when they were shut out of an elite school and the second time when you used the MCAT to "level the playing field".

 

[gettheleadout]

It tends to favor students who are rich. We know that despite efforts to make the top schools accessible to kids who don't come from wealth, the admissions process for college greatly favors the rich. Then use a high stakes exam that favors the rich and you've screwed the lower middle class kid twice, once when they were shut out of an elite school and the second time when you used the MCAT to "level the playing field".

Does it favor the rich or just work against the poor? My family is far from rich by any measure, we're middle class, and I've still had the opportunity to work for the past several years, save the money to purchase the best prep materials, and can afford to live at home without working this summer to study. We didn't have to be any sort of wealthy to enable me to do this. I have no doubt that I have every advantage I could want in preparing for the exam, but my family's "wealth" had little to do with it.

 

[gettheleadout]

Also why doesn't the AAMC just make the MCAT free and release all of their prep materials for free? I can't imagine how that would NOT at least somewhat help level the playing field for poorer students.

 

[sliceofbread136]

I see the MCAT/SAT as the same as our American system of "meritocracy," another SDN favorite with regards to the top school debate.

We know it sucks, but what's the genius alternative proposal of those who oppose it so much?

Honestly I think our current system is fine. Making grading more standardized would help though.

The problem is that these high stakes exams often favor those who have the resources (free time and cash) to devote to preparation. It has also been shown that psychological factors can influence success in these high-stakes exams. (A group told that people like them do not do well will do more poorly on average compared to a similar group given a neutral message before the test.)

The single high stakes exam doesn't take into account work ethic over the long haul and so many of my fellow adcoms prefer GPA over MCAT when selecting applicants. As always, YMMV.

I'd argue that getting a high MCAT takes a high work ethic over a long haul.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Also why doesn't the AAMC just make the MCAT free and release all of their prep materials for free? I can't imagine how that would NOT at least somewhat help level the playing field for poorer students.

Because the AAMC is a business, just like medicine is a business..

They cant operate or hire staff without money.

The MCAT and the AMCAS are their principal sources of income.