Do Ad-Coms adjust for the varying rigor at different undergrad schools?

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sliceofbread136 said:
Honestly I think our current system is fine. Making grading more standardized would help though.
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Could not agree with this more.
GandalfTheWhite said:
Because the AAMC is a business, just like medicine is a business..

They cant operate or hire staff without money.

The MCAT and the AMCAS are their principal sources of income.
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I realize that's the obvious answer, but if the AAMC intends the MCAT to be an equalizer for more than just educational rigor, then why not use a progressive system of cost?

Every applicant or student applying to take the MCAT could be required to fill out a financial information form like the with the FAFSA, and based on your status you could be required to pay between nothing and some amount higher than the current amount for the MCAT, for the prep materials, and for each school you apply to. The net revenue for the AAMC would be kept the same, but the financial burden would be more fairly distributed among their customers.

Now, I realize such an idea is going to get some hate from people in favor of things like flat tax rates, but I think it depends on what the goal of the MCAT is in the context of admissions.

Also, to expand upon slice's point about standardization of grades, I think it's kind of laughable that we pretend we can justifiably compare GPA's at all. Between the different majors, schools, professors, tests, and everything else that students encounter in earning their GPA, I really don't see how it's valid to make any sort of comparison. I recognize that there's only that and the MCAT for adcoms to go on, but really, I think it's just plain dumb that we don't see a greater push for standardized education across universities. Every test for core courses should be standardized, IMO. Taking first semester gen chem? You'll take the same test everyone else in the country in that same course takes. Scores could be compared as they are with the MCAT. Schools with more qualified students, the "top" schools, should expect to see higher average scores than a typical state school.

Calculate applicant's core GPA and sGPA separately and boom, you've got a real comparison.
 
Just because there is a well structured debate going on, I wanted to throw out a question!

Should genetic engineers be allowed to create the perfect human being (gene wise)?

Fire away. Just kidding.
 
gettheleadout said:
Could not agree with this more.


I realize that's the obvious answer, but if the AAMC intends the MCAT to be an equalizer for more than just educational rigor, then why not use a progressive system of cost?

Every applicant or student applying to take the MCAT could be required to fill out a financial information form like the with the FAFSA, and based on your status you could be required to pay between nothing and some amount higher than the current amount for the MCAT, for the prep materials, and for each school you apply to. The net revenue for the AAMC would be kept the same, but the financial burden would be more fairly distributed among their customers.

Now, I realize such an idea is going to get some hate from people in favor of things like flat tax rates, but I think it depends on what the goal of the MCAT is in the context of admissions.

Also, to expand upon slice's point about standardization of grades, I think it's kind of laughable that we pretend we can justifiably compare GPA's at all. Between the different majors, schools, professors, tests, and everything else that students encounter in earning their GPA, I really don't see how it's valid to make any sort of comparison. I recognize that there's only that and the MCAT for adcoms to go on, but really, I think it's just plain dumb that we don't see a greater push for standardized education across universities. Every test for core courses should be standardized, IMO. Taking first semester gen chem? You'll take the same test everyone else in the country in that same course takes. Scores could be compared as they are with the MCAT. Schools with more qualified students, the "top" schools, should expect to see higher average scores than a typical state school.

Calculate applicant's core GPA and sGPA separately and boom, you've got a real comparison.
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Thats precisely the reason FAP is in place.
Free application, free MCAT, and free ( for the most part) secondaries...
Now I do believe the practice tests should be made free as well.

With regards to test material, Ive seen TPR/Kaplan books in the library so its not as if poor people dont have access to it.

Prep companies are in the business of making money, not catering to poor peoples needs :laugh:

With regards to standardization I agree that we should have "shelf exams" much like medical schools do. I recall for my O-chem final, we used the ACS test. If we implemented this in the other BCPM courses, then I believe that AT LEAST the sGPA would be more standardized and thus more comparative across universities.
 
Jpatel2018 said:
Just because there is a well structured debate going on, I wanted to throw out a question!

Should genetic engineers be allowed to create the perfect human being (gene wise)?

Fire away. Just kidding.
Click to expand...

hijack.gif
 
Jpatel2018 said:
Just because there is a well structured debate going on, I wanted to throw out a question!

Should genetic engineers be allowed to create the perfect human being (gene wise)?

Fire away. Just kidding.
Click to expand...

They would never succeed as perfect would not be achievable.
 
gettheleadout said:
Also why doesn't the AAMC just make the MCAT free and release all of their prep materials for free? I can't imagine how that would NOT at least somewhat help level the playing field for poorer students.
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The AAMC is a business. They aren't concerned about producing diverse physicians; they care about appearing to produce diverse physicians.
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
Thats precisely the reason FAP is in place.
Free application, free MCAT, and free ( for the most part) secondaries...
Now I do believe the practice tests should be made free as well.

With regards to test material, Ive seen TPR/Kaplan books in the library so its not as if poor people dont have access to it.

Prep companies are in the business of making money, not catering to poor peoples needs :laugh:

With regards to standardization I agree that we should have "shelf exams" much like medical schools do. I recall for my O-chem final, we used the ACS test. If we implemented this in the other BCPM courses, then I believe that AT LEAST the sGPA would be more standardized and thus more comparative across universities.
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See I know that's the reason the FAP exists, but it ends up just dividing the pool into people who qualify and get the benefit, and people who don't and get nothing. What about the students who are just barely above the line to qualify for the FAP? A continuum makes more sense.
 
gettheleadout said:
So why the disconnect between the AAMC's actions and those of admissions committees? Why does the governing body not care but its constituents do?
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Because groups of empty suits don't care about anything except appearances and their salaries. This isn't a phenomena unique to the AAMC; you can see it across every 'representative' group.
 
sinombre said:
False. Perfection is achievable, as is evident by the entire Yale student body.

I kid, I kid.
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Finally someone understands what Dbate and I were trying to demonstrate. Sheesh.

:troll:
 
circulus vitios said:
Because groups of empty suits don't care about anything except appearances and their salaries. This isn't a phenomena unique to the AAMC; you can see it across every 'representative' group.
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Freakin Obama. Must be his fault!
 
I knew someone wouldn't pick up the sarcasm.
 
This thread has been immensely entertaining. But just to add a little something... WashU has a science GPA and MCAT chart with acceptance rates in their prehealth handbook. I think it suggests that WashU's pre-med powerhouse reputation really does have merit with adcoms. The 3.40-3.59 science GPA with 30-32 MCAT group has an 80% acceptance rate and the 3.20-3.39 GPA with 30-32 MCAT lists a 68% acceptance rate. Granted, I don't know if the chart includes DO programs, but still...

http://prehealth.wustl.edu/Pages/default.aspx

The PDF is at the bottom of the page and the chart is on page 21 of the pdf. I think it's pretty interesting - and am very curious to know if other schools have made similar data public.
 
hobbity said:
This thread has been immensely entertaining. But just to add a little something... WashU has a science GPA and MCAT chart with acceptance rates in their prehealth handbook. I think it suggests that WashU's pre-med powerhouse reputation really does have merit with adcoms. The 3.40-3.59 science GPA with 30-32 MCAT group has an 80% acceptance rate and the 3.20-3.39 GPA with 30-32 MCAT lists a 68% acceptance rate. Granted, I don't know if the chart includes DO programs, but still...

http://prehealth.wustl.edu/Pages/default.aspx

The PDF is at the bottom of the page and the chart is on page 21 of the pdf. I think it's pretty interesting - and am very curious to know if other schools have made similar data public.
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An overall acceptance rate of 72% is actually quite a bit lower than I'd have expected from WashU. It looks to me like their prehealth advisers aren't as discouraging to long shot students as advisers at many schools are. Some schools brag 90+% acceptance rates for their students, but it's hard to know if they're just telling all but the best applicants not to apply.
 
gettheleadout said:
See I know that's the reason the FAP exists, but it ends up just dividing the pool into people who qualify and get the benefit, and people who don't and get nothing. What about the students who are just barely above the line to qualify for the FAP? A continuum makes more sense.
Click to expand...

You have to have a strict cutoff line somewhere.. and keep in mind, almost everyone under-reports their income with the IRS in someway.

The reason its a strict cutoff is so that they dont have to spend resources and manpower to decide each case independently... same reason you cant drink until 21....
it would be dumb if you could drink 2 beers at 18, 4 at 19, 6 at 20, and as many at 21...

gettheleadout said:
So why the disconnect between the AAMC's actions and those of admissions committees? Why does the governing body not care but its constituents do?
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Because the AAMC makes the money, not the constituent schools ( which is why they have such high secondary fees). A good allusion would be how the NCAA makes billions/ year while their student ath-o-letes (anyone get the reference?:laugh:) or their schools make nothing.

Its understandable that the AAMC would charge money because their workers have to be paid somehow, whereas the admissions staff in the medical schools are salaried for a variety of duties.
 
mcloaf said:
An overall acceptance rate of 72% is actually quite a bit lower than I'd have expected from WashU. It looks to me like their prehealth advisers aren't as discouraging to long shot students as advisers at many schools are. Some schools brag 90+% acceptance rates for their students, but it's hard to know if they're just telling all but the best applicants not to apply.
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I found the 2012 chart for Duke (another "powerhouse") here: http://prehealth.duke.edu/wp-content/uploads/2012-Acceptance-table-1st-time.xlsx.pdf

And their 2009 chart here: http://prehealth.duke.edu/wp-content/uploads/Table-1-Acceptance-patterns-20092.pdf

So in 2009 Duke had a 71% acceptance rate and in 2012 a 79% acceptance rate. WashU's chart was an aggregate between 2007-2011.

I remember hearing about schools talking about having a 90%+ acceptance rate. But if they don't provide data 🙄

At any rate, I think the breakdowns are interesting - especially when compared to the AAMC grid (which uses total GPA). https://www.aamc.org/download/270906/data
 
Another interesting set of data from a "lower" Ivy with acceptance rate of 80%:
http://brown.edu/academics/college/advising/health-careers/medical-admission-data-snapshot

Seems the average (meaning half were accepted with lower!) gpa for accepted students was 3.67 (sgpa at 3.63) and average MCAT for accepted students was 34. Obviously not as useful as data from all applicants, but it supports the "benefit of the doubt" trend for how adcoms treat the gpa despite Brown usually being considered a grade inflated school.
 
hobbity said:
Yale's data:

http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/med_school_applicant_profile.pdf

http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/med_school_stats.pdf

The data are not compiled the same way as the others (and I wouldn't find it really useful as a student... but anyways).

Does anyone have state school data? (Preferably data with more detailed GPA vs MCAT breakdowns).
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😱 20% of all Yalies headed to med school (and 17% of all Yale applicants) end up at Yale SOM. I wonder how many are accepted but don't matriculate...
 
Here is (another powerhouse) JHU's data: http://web.jhu.edu/prepro/health/Applicants/applicants.html

Click "Applicant Kick-off Powerpoint November 2012" under Session Handouts. The data is on the 6th slide of the powerpoint. Basically, 2012 first time applicants who got accepted to an US allopathic school from JHU undergrad had a 3.64 cGPA, 3.60 sGPA, and a 31.9 MCAT.
 
mihan said:
😱 20% of all Yalies headed to med school (and 17% of all Yale applicants) end up at Yale SOM. I wonder how many are accepted but don't matriculate...
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I think 30 Yale alum were ACCEPTED to Yale SOM, but we don't know how many matriculated.


And UCLA data. I'm surprised that the UCLA charts have less than 200 students per year (though granted, it says that UCLA gets the data from AMCAS if the student releases the info so there should be more applicants). The admissions rate is around 50-60%. There are also fewer low-GPA applicants as the years increase.

http://career.ucla.edu/Students/GradProfSchCounseling/MedicalSchoolStatisticsForUCLAGraduates.aspx
 
mihan said:
😱 20% of all Yalies headed to med school (and 17% of all Yale applicants) end up at Yale SOM. I wonder how many are accepted but don't matriculate...
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Are you saying that 20% of Yale's senior class is heading for a US MD school? How many graduates do they have each year? 1000?
 
GandalfTheWhite said:
You have to have a strict cutoff line somewhere.. and keep in mind, almost everyone under-reports their income with the IRS in someway.

The reason its a strict cutoff is so that they dont have to spend resources and manpower to decide each case independently... same reason you cant drink until 21....
it would be dumb if you could drink 2 beers at 18, 4 at 19, 6 at 20, and as many at 21...
Click to expand...

Just write an algorithm that automatically spits out prices based on income. Easy, and no strict cutoff.
 
I think he meant 20% of Yales "premed" students?
 
Agent B said:
How does that make sense?
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lets say you and I make the same income.

However, I live in a different state so the cost of living is higher and thus the , NET/DISPOSABLE income would be lower for me than for you....

Consequently, if you receive the same assistance because of the same taxable income, its not fair to me because you have more disposable income than I do but receive the same benefits.
 
SOMBound13 said:
Are you saying that 20% of Yale's senior class is heading for a US MD school? How many graduates do they have each year? 1000?
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Jpatel2018 said:
I think he meant 20% of Yales "premed" students?
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lol 20% of our graduating class of ~1300 does not go to Yale med school. 20% of matriculants go to YSM. And yes, YSM rates acceptance rates are ridiculous. 21% across 12 years of data (another PDF that's not readily accessible to the public contains data since 2000).
 
Last edited:
I've been checking on this thread for the past day or so, and realized that nobody has invoked Godwin's Law yet. Or maybe I'm missing something. Either way, it's still quite an achievement given the way the thread was going.
 
hobbity said:
Yale's data:

http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/med_school_applicant_profile.pdf

http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/med_school_stats.pdf

The data are not compiled the same way as the others (and I wouldn't find it really useful as a student... but anyways).

Does anyone have state school data? (Preferably data with more detailed GPA vs MCAT breakdowns).
Click to expand...

We have the sort of data other schools make public, only that it's not public. :d
 
mcloaf said:
An overall acceptance rate of 72% is actually quite a bit lower than I'd have expected from WashU. It looks to me like their prehealth advisers aren't as discouraging to long shot students as advisers at many schools are. Some schools brag 90+% acceptance rates for their students, but it's hard to know if they're just telling all but the best applicants not to apply.
Click to expand...

Advisers still do that? 👎 I've never heard of anyone being discouraged from applying. In fact, I've always thought that applicants are sometimes encouraged to apply to too many so schools can protect their percentage rates. Never thought about denying them the chance to apply to begin with. 😡
 
inycepoo said:
Advisers still do that? 👎 I've never heard of anyone being discouraged from applying. In fact, I've always thought that applicants are sometimes encouraged to apply to too many so schools can protect their percentage rates. Never thought about denying them the chance to apply to begin with. 😡
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They still do that here at Johns Hopkins. One of my friends was bluntly told to take a gap year since her GPA was not >3.5.
 
osprey099 said:
They still do that here at Johns Hopkins. One of my friends was bluntly told to take a gap year since her GPA was not >3.5.
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😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡😡

What's preventing her from going ahead and applying anyway? Their committee letter can't possibly be that important, but I'm sure there's other red tape to fight. Thought this kind of stuff stopped in high school.....😱

edit: lol you can only use up to 10 "images" in one post.
 
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