I have a simple question, do DO's have to take step 2 to enter allopathic residencies? Or do they just have to take Step 1?
DO and allopathic residencies
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exmike said:
DO's take their own set of licensing exams - COMLEX I/II/III. We have the option of taking the USMLE as well in order to make it easier for allopathic residencies to compare us as applicants, though a lot of DO-friendly programs know how to interpret COMLEX scores and don't require USMLE scores.
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I chose to go to a DO school this coming year because I like the DO philosophy and I wanted the DO training in class and during clinical rotations, but I am considering the possibility of trying for an MD residency. Now, let's assume that there exists a certain Student A, a hypothetical MD student who represents the average candidate who would get a top-tier (JHU, Harvard, UCSF, etc.) residency in, say, radiology, which is one of my fields of interest.
My questions are as follows: would I, as a so-far-tabula-rasa DO student, only have to perform at the same level numerically as Student A (in classes and on COMLEX/USMLE, assuming similar quality of recommendations and similar quality of medical school) in order to get into those programs, or would I have to do better? If better, then how much better? Additionally, are top-tier allopathic residency programs generally less DO-friendly than those in the second-tier or third-tier? Has anyone out there compiled a list (or at least a few examples) of allopathic residencies that are DO-friendly?
Last, I don't think the original question in this thread is clear, and it's important, so let's try putting it another way. Do the DO students who apply to allopathic residencies usually take both Step I and Step II of the USMLE, or just one of the two? Or do most of them simply wind up taking the COMLEX series?
So, I know that I just asked a bunch of stuff that isn't easy to answer...thanks in advance for any responses.
My questions are as follows: would I, as a so-far-tabula-rasa DO student, only have to perform at the same level numerically as Student A (in classes and on COMLEX/USMLE, assuming similar quality of recommendations and similar quality of medical school) in order to get into those programs, or would I have to do better? If better, then how much better? Additionally, are top-tier allopathic residency programs generally less DO-friendly than those in the second-tier or third-tier? Has anyone out there compiled a list (or at least a few examples) of allopathic residencies that are DO-friendly?
Last, I don't think the original question in this thread is clear, and it's important, so let's try putting it another way. Do the DO students who apply to allopathic residencies usually take both Step I and Step II of the USMLE, or just one of the two? Or do most of them simply wind up taking the COMLEX series?
So, I know that I just asked a bunch of stuff that isn't easy to answer...thanks in advance for any responses.
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exmike said:
Once you take USMLE I, you have to take all three in order to get your license, and to become board certified.
Basically, you have to take all three, especially the first two if you want to do an allopathic residency.
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I believe that is wrong, if you take complex 1 and USMLE 1 (to be more competitive at certain allopathic residencies), you could choose to only take COMLEX 2 and 3 to get licensed as a DO.
D
deleted9493
To reiterate what has already been said, the purpose of taking USMLE for a DO student is for purposes of residency application and 'balancing the scales' of comparison with allopathic applicants. A small percentage choose to take all steps of both certifying organizations because they know that they want to work overseas...with the logic that some countries may well discriminate against nbome certification, rather than that of the nbme.
Correct. As a DO you can take as few or as many of the usmle steps as you want.
Nate said:
Correct. As a DO you can take as few or as many of the usmle steps as you want.
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As far as the first question is concerned, there is no level of numeric superiority that you could attain that would open the door for you at some allopathic residency programs. Yes, there are exceptions to every rule, and ten people will chime in with an anecdote about DO's who trained here or there, etc. But the simple fact of the matter is that some "prestigious" allopathic residency programs in competitive fields, such as radiology, will simply not interview osteopathic students.suds945 said:
In a more general sense, you need to perform a little bit better than allopathic applicants to be treated in the same fashion when participating in the allopathic match. You will most likely see and hear of allopathic applicants with similar or slightly lesser statistical credentials garnering more, and more supposedly competitive, interview opportunities. This doesn't mean it's impossible to play the game, but you should be aware that the playing field is simply different.
As far as the steps, it depends what you want to go into. Some specialties, e.g. radiology, don't care too much about step II at all. Lots of other specialties do and DO applicants would be wise to take both I and II. Seek specific advice when you choose a field. There's really no need to take USMLE step III as you need to finish up all of the COMLEX steps anyway (aside from the previously mentioned international bit).
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exmike said:
There are many DO's that enter allopathic residencies without taking the USMLE - they only take the comlex series. As a DO your licensing is through the comlex series only.
If you are considering even the possibility of applying to allopathic residencies for any reason - I would recommend taking at least step 1 of USMLE because it helps PD's compare apples to apples. There are still some programs that have a DO bias and will require USMLE scores.
I took step 2 USMLE also because I score better on the USMLE's vs the COMLEX's and I love to take standardized tests - yes I am a freak. I had a friend going into EM that had applied to a program that require him to take step 2 USMLE to be ranked.
Good luck
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suds945 said:
Your problem is that you are looking at a hypothetical residency, so the question means absolutely zero. Why? Because every resident is chosen by human beings and humans rarely follow any logical basis on decisions of this kind. Plus, every single residency will look at DOs in a different manner, regardless of your scores. For instance, There is an allopathic EM residency in SC (can't be hard to figure out which, since there is only one) that likes to take one DO in each class. If, however, there is not an outstanding DO candidate, they don't take any. It makes absolutely NO difference what any of the other MD students have done, or what their scores or credentials are, because you aren't being compared to them. Instead, you are being compared to the program's standards for DOs. Also, they don't typically look at FMGs. Only one has been admitted to the program since 1974 and that was in the middle eighties. That's just the way this program does things. Likewize, every single program you look at will have their own way of looking at DOs. You just can't look at hypotheticals in this instance because the playing field is not level.
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Okay, my two cents.
DO's do not have to take Step II of COMLEX (or USMLE for that matter) to apply for and interview at residency programs and subsequently match. However, 100% of all programs require you to have passed Step II in order to start residency. For DO's, this means COMLEX II regardless of whether you took USMLE II. Some people take Step II early in hopes of improving their numbers in the eyes of an admissions committee, but frankly, so do many allopathic applicants.
Now, as far as competitiveness and numbers, it certainly helps to be better than the average candidate, regardless of where you are applying. Mass General, for instance, likely gets 1500+ applicants for its 40 or so IM spots (Im guessing). They have to have a way to whittle that down to 400 or so interviews, so they most definitely screen with numbers criteria (225 Step I, 3.85 GPA, for instance) and if you dont meet their criteria, you dont get an interview, regardless of how great a guy you are and how many clinics you set up in Africa and likely regardless of whether you are an MD or DO applicant. With that said, if you do meet the cutoff criteria you still may find that you are not offered an interview, and occasionally, you may be able to attribute it to being a DO (I have MD friends with Step I's 40 points below mine who were offered and matched at places where I didnt even get rejected from, think about that...they didnt even take the time to add me to the 'do not offer interview' list until about a month after Match Day).
So make of that what you will. Also, some programs are hinting that might make it mandatory for DO's to take Step II prior to interviewing at their program. I dont know how a different set of rules for different candidates would be legal, but just ake sure and contact each program you are interested in regarding how much they weigh/require Step II. I did have one program say they wouldnt rank anyone without a passing Step II score, but that was for MD/Do candidates across the board. I figured that to mean that they were burned a few years back by some people matching who then didnt pass Step II and were unable to start residency.
DO's do not have to take Step II of COMLEX (or USMLE for that matter) to apply for and interview at residency programs and subsequently match. However, 100% of all programs require you to have passed Step II in order to start residency. For DO's, this means COMLEX II regardless of whether you took USMLE II. Some people take Step II early in hopes of improving their numbers in the eyes of an admissions committee, but frankly, so do many allopathic applicants.
Now, as far as competitiveness and numbers, it certainly helps to be better than the average candidate, regardless of where you are applying. Mass General, for instance, likely gets 1500+ applicants for its 40 or so IM spots (Im guessing). They have to have a way to whittle that down to 400 or so interviews, so they most definitely screen with numbers criteria (225 Step I, 3.85 GPA, for instance) and if you dont meet their criteria, you dont get an interview, regardless of how great a guy you are and how many clinics you set up in Africa and likely regardless of whether you are an MD or DO applicant. With that said, if you do meet the cutoff criteria you still may find that you are not offered an interview, and occasionally, you may be able to attribute it to being a DO (I have MD friends with Step I's 40 points below mine who were offered and matched at places where I didnt even get rejected from, think about that...they didnt even take the time to add me to the 'do not offer interview' list until about a month after Match Day).
So make of that what you will. Also, some programs are hinting that might make it mandatory for DO's to take Step II prior to interviewing at their program. I dont know how a different set of rules for different candidates would be legal, but just ake sure and contact each program you are interested in regarding how much they weigh/require Step II. I did have one program say they wouldnt rank anyone without a passing Step II score, but that was for MD/Do candidates across the board. I figured that to mean that they were burned a few years back by some people matching who then didnt pass Step II and were unable to start residency.
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Simple answer:
DO's take the COMLEX for medical licensure purposes. This means that you have to complete all three steps.
DO's the USMLE (aka "the U-Smelly") for ACGME-accredited residency application purposes. This means that you only need to take the first two steps; the caveat being that you may not need to take any steps of the U-Smelly if you know that the programs you're applying to are familiar and comfortable with interpretting COMLEX scores.
So...call the programs and ask directly!! Don't speak with a secretary, but with the program director him- or herself. This need not be a confrontational or awkward conversation:
"Hi, my name is ________. I'm an osteopathic medical student interested in applying to your residency program. For the purposes of planning, I was curious if your program accepts osteopathic boards---the COMLEX-USA---or prefers DO applicants to have USMLE scores too?"
That's really all there is to it.
DO's take the COMLEX for medical licensure purposes. This means that you have to complete all three steps.
DO's the USMLE (aka "the U-Smelly") for ACGME-accredited residency application purposes. This means that you only need to take the first two steps; the caveat being that you may not need to take any steps of the U-Smelly if you know that the programs you're applying to are familiar and comfortable with interpretting COMLEX scores.
So...call the programs and ask directly!! Don't speak with a secretary, but with the program director him- or herself. This need not be a confrontational or awkward conversation:
"Hi, my name is ________. I'm an osteopathic medical student interested in applying to your residency program. For the purposes of planning, I was curious if your program accepts osteopathic boards---the COMLEX-USA---or prefers DO applicants to have USMLE scores too?"
That's really all there is to it.
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drusso said:
I got licensed by taking all 3 steps of the USMLE. Didn't take COMLEX 3.
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OSUdoc08 said:
There are some states that require DO's to be licensed under the COMLEX. Since you never know where life might take you, I always advice people to not make any choices that will limit your future options.
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Arch Guillotti said:
WOW - I wish I had known that earlier. Are there any states that actually require DO's to take the comlex vs USMLE? I have done better on the USMLE's. Although step 3 USMLE is 2 days and comlex 3 is only 1 day. I also didn't take the annoying nbme cs only the nbome PE so I guess I am stuck with comlex. oh well.
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OSUdoc08 said:
However. it doesnt make sense to go the USMLE route and take extra Steps and an extra CS test when you are forced to take COMLEX I/II/PE to graduate. I believe that you have to sit for USMLE I/II/CS to take Step III...why subject yourself to a minimum of 7 standardized tests? Its easy to say that you can sit for USMLE III and get licensed, but the rules seen to change on this daily, and I dont think anyone on this board knows for sure how state X would respond to this question.
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So, to cover all my bases, the best thing to do here would be to take USMLE and COMLEX Steps I, II, and III? That's what it sounds like.
Also, speaking of Step I boards, I heard somewhere that there's a 0.7 (70%) correlation between the MCAT and one's Step I score. I did pretty well on the MCAT, so that's a positive sign for me...anyone heard of anything like this before?
Also, speaking of Step I boards, I heard somewhere that there's a 0.7 (70%) correlation between the MCAT and one's Step I score. I did pretty well on the MCAT, so that's a positive sign for me...anyone heard of anything like this before?
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suds945 said:
Second part first: yes this correlation does apply. Studies have been done that show the MCAT does not correlate to grades, residency selection, number of friends, etc, but does loosely correlate to USMLE Step 1 score.
First part second: What???? Look, the best thing for you to do is to take both Step 1s and do well on them and then to never worry about USMLE again. You likely wont have a Step 2 score prior to matching and so USMLE Step 2 becomes useless, since you are required to take COMLEX 1/2/PE anyway. What do you gain by taking USMLE Step 2/CS/3? Just finish out the COMLEX series and get licensed. Nothing else matters.
wow, this isnt as straightforward as I thought it would be. I guess there are many angles to consider when choosing which boards to take.
(btw, I started this thread b/c my cousin is starting at COMP this year and he was curious)
(btw, I started this thread b/c my cousin is starting at COMP this year and he was curious)
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suds945 said:
No, to cover your bases take the USMLE Steps I and II to apply for residency (if you're interested in a ACGME-accredited residency that prefers DO's to have the USMLE) and all steps of the COMLEX to be licensed in all 50 states.
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Idiopathic said:
I plan on doing an ACGME residency, and I do not plan on getting the first year approved by the AOA.
Wouldn't I need to proceed with all of the USMLE steps, since I would not be qualified to be licensed by the AOA through the COMLEX steps?
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OSUdoc08 said:
I would guess you would be required to take COMLEX 3 to be licensed in one of the notorious 5, none of which I plan on ever living in.
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OSUdoc08 said:
Not necessarily. Medical licensure is a state regulated issue. I think that I might put a FAQ together on this...
It doesn't matter if you plan on getting your PGY-1 internship AOA-approved or not. There may be some long-term advantages to that too, but that's a different topic. In terms of medical licensure the COMLEX is the recognized pathway for osteopathic physicians. DO's and DO student lobby's have been pushing for more international recognition of practice rights so the NBOME, the AOA, et al are working on international practice issues for osteopathic physicians and are pushing the COMLEX as the recognized medical licensure examination pathway for US-trained DO's:
As a result of the efforts of the AOA and the NBOME in international affairs, candidates who have successfully completed the COMLEX-USA sequence, including the PE, are eligible for initial registration in the Province of Ontario, Canada. Other jurisdictions are considering similar changes in their rules. Candidates who have successfully completed the COMLEX-USA sequence, and who have graduated before 2005, may now request to take the PE examination through the jurisdiction in which they are seeking licensure or registration. The NBOME anticipates participating in the Osteopathic International Alliance (OIA) and International Association of Medical Regulatory Authorities (IAMRA) meetings that will be held later this year.
The Osteopathic Examiner Spring 2006
This is an important distinction because in most country DO's are not medically-trained; however, the non-medically trained DO's in those countries aren't too excited about US DO's coming over with "sub-par" OMT skills. They have turf to protect. The MD's in other countries are not too thrilled about letting in medically-trained DO's without some assurance that their training and qualifications are similar to the native MD's. They have turf to protect.
So...guess which medical licensing examination assess both OMT and medicine??? The COMLEX-USA. So, DO's trained in the USA who someday might want to do international work need to appease two concerns: 1) They're qualified to perform OMT (even if they never plan on it); 2) They are qualified to practice standard medicine (which most will probably want to do)!
It's an interesting potential turn of events. That's why I encourage DO students to look at the COMLEX as their "medical licensing exam" and the USMLE as their "ACGME Residency Entrance Exam" if that is indeed what they want to pursue.
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OSUdoc08 said:
From what I understand, the test will have no bearing on your licensure eligibility, since you will still be an osteopathic physician, required by the state to have completed a rotating internship or have this requirement waived via prop 42 (right number?). Taking USMLE does not turn you into an allopathic physician.
If you want full licensure in one of the five states (Florida, Michigan, Oklahoma, West Virginia or Pennsylvania) you will either have to do an approved internship or have it waived, no way around that through testing.
However, since you will be getting licensed in Texas (likely), there wont be a problem anyway.
M
MSc44
if i take comlex 1 2 and 3 , and get an allopathic residency,(say in IM, EM Peds etc.) wont i be board certified by say the American Board of Internal Medicine (same as MDs) as opposed to the american osteopathic board of IM (which is only for DOs)
it has nothing to do with which seried of exams i take (usmle or comlex) only on werther its an MD or DO residency right??????
it has nothing to do with which seried of exams i take (usmle or comlex) only on werther its an MD or DO residency right??????
M
MSc44
OSUdoc08 said:
i know that, but if u are a DO and take comlex 123, then take your BC exam, if it was an MD residency then you take the exam for the ABIM and if it was a DO residency then you take the ABOIM exam right
You cant do a DO residency and take the ABIM exam can you ( you can only be board certified by the ABOIM RIGHt????)unless the program is AMA and AOA approved
understand the question??
I guess to sum it up here it is
IF im a DO take comlex 1 2 and 3 get into an allopathic IM program then take my IM boards i will be certefied by the ABIM (not ABOIM)because i did an MD residency
right????
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Some scenarios allow for the physician to complete an ACGME residency and then sit for the osteopathic boards, but not all of them. Typically a prerequisite is your residency classification. I had this come up in another conversation where someone argues that DO's who couldnt pass the allo boards could just sit for the osteo boards and still be board-certified, ergo: lesser qualifications.
However, for the most part, this isnt true. Your BC is linked with your residency classification.
However, for the most part, this isnt true. Your BC is linked with your residency classification.
M
MSc44
Idiopathic said:
thats what i thought, just wanted some ideas
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Hi guys,
I was just wondering if there is a list out there containing all ACGME-accredited residency sites which accept osteopathic (D.O.) applicants. (not necessarily those that are dually accredited by AOA and ACGME). I don't have a particular medical specialty or a U.S. state I am interested in. Any information will help.
Also, this may be a dumb question. Do some state residencies (whether AOA or ACGME accredited) give preference to applicants from one D.O. school versus another D.O. school for open spots? Here's my own example: TUCOM is a California D.O. school whose majority of graduates fill residency slots in CA (my home state), whereas KCOM is a Missouri D.O. school whose majority of graduates fill residency slots in the Midwest (Iowa, Kansas, etc.). If I'm a KCOM graduate applying for a residency slot in CA will I be less competitive compared to a TUCOM graduate applying for the same slot?
I was just wondering if there is a list out there containing all ACGME-accredited residency sites which accept osteopathic (D.O.) applicants. (not necessarily those that are dually accredited by AOA and ACGME). I don't have a particular medical specialty or a U.S. state I am interested in. Any information will help.
Also, this may be a dumb question. Do some state residencies (whether AOA or ACGME accredited) give preference to applicants from one D.O. school versus another D.O. school for open spots? Here's my own example: TUCOM is a California D.O. school whose majority of graduates fill residency slots in CA (my home state), whereas KCOM is a Missouri D.O. school whose majority of graduates fill residency slots in the Midwest (Iowa, Kansas, etc.). If I'm a KCOM graduate applying for a residency slot in CA will I be less competitive compared to a TUCOM graduate applying for the same slot?
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If you plan on doing an ACGME residency, no rotating internship, and no Resolution 42, you're ok so long as you avoid Florida, Oklahoma, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania. Even in Michigan, a DO can attend an ACGME residency without a rotating internship or AOA approval, so long as he then leaves the state to practice following graduation.
As far as the licensing exams, you can take COMLEX 1, 2, 3 or USMLE 1, 2, 3 as this is a state by state requirement that is in a sense separate from whether or not you do a rotating internship. While some states (typically the 5 + California + 1 or 2 others) will not grant a DO an unrestricted license on the basis of USMLE exams, the vast majority of them will.
In a sense, my advice to DOs is opposite of Dr Russos...look at the first two Comlex exams as graduation tests from medical school, and the USMLE exams + your MD specialty boards as certification and licensure exams.
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Either way. The only issue with not being licensed under the NBOME/COMLEX as a DO is potential hassles and administrative issues down the line on a state-by-state basis. If a state has a combined medical board with both MD's and DO's then you can complete either set of boards and it probably won't matter. But, if you go to a state with a separate osteopathic medical board, the board might hassle you about being licensed under the USMLE---there might be appeals process, administrative procedures, extra fees, etc.
The ultimate solution is to create a common pathway, a federal licensure system, for all physicians. Maybe after we're all working for the government in a socialized system this will happen, but for as long as medical licensure remains a state matter, my advice would be to take the first two steps of the USMLE as your "ACGME-residency entrance exam" and finish your medical licensure under the COMLEX series Level 1, 2, and 3.
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So as a DO student, would you get certified as an MD if you take all parts of the USMLE?
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NO. You're a DO, no matter how much you may mimick your MD counterpart, you're a DO.
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How would taking and passing a test change the kind of degree you earn? You already earned it...
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If you're A DO why would you want to be a MD? that makes no sense
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