DO and medicinal chemistry

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dolly

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I will be applying to DO schools. I've also an interest in medicinal chemistry. The only problem is that I can't seem to find any program information on the topic. Is this a sub-specialty that I will be able to study during osteo school? The only info I've received (by word of mouth) is that all medicinal chemists are board certified physicians. Can anyone enlighten me on the proper steps to attain my DO and be able to work as a medicinal chemist too?

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I've always thought a "medicinal chemist" was a fancy way of saying "pharmacist," or at best, "pharmacologist."


Tim of New York City.
 
You may be correct. I'm may be ignorant about the title. My interest (in addition to being a practicing physician) is in analyzing plant properties and synthesizing new medicines (hence "medicinal chemistry"). My acquaintances who are pharmacy majors do not have any chem after orgo II and don't seem to think that what I am referring to is something they would be doing. Does anyone else know what the proper title is for what I'm seeking, and if it is pursuable in addition to DO training?
 
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Well whatever a medicinal chemist is, I'm sure that you'd be one by getting a PhD. If that's the case then you should be looking into which schools offer a DO/PhD combined program. Off the top of my head, I believe this is offered at MSUCOM, PCOM, TCOM, and CCOM.


Tim of New York City.
 
Thanks "Tim of New York City," that's the type of info I was looking for.
 
I highly doubt that the original poster is looking for an ND program. From what I've read, Naturopathic programs have yet to be properly accredited.


Tim of New York City.
 
I doubt it to. However, SNCM is accredited by the Council on Naturopathic Medical Education (CNME). Furthermore, the CNME is recognized by the U.S. Department of Education as the official accrediting agency for Naturopathic Medical Colleges and Universities. ...and they do conduct a lot of plant medicinal research. ...and I thought I would through his out just to see what kind of comments people have to say about it. I actually know very little about it.

RDJ
 
By the way, the DO/PhD. programs are Midwestern-Chicago, University of North Texas-TCOM, Michigan State, Ohio State and New Jersey. There is a rumor that one is in the works at Philadelphia (PCOM), but it has not been announced yet.

Good luck
 
There are a number of schools in the country which offer programs in medicinal chemistry, which are usually Ph.D. programs, and sometimes masters I suppose. Univ of Kansas, Rutgers, and Univ of Michigan all have medicinal chemistry Ph.D. programs.

Alternatively, alot of the people who synthesize new medicinal leads and are involved in the drug discovery process are Organic chemistry Ph.D's who specialize in the this area ie. "organic medicinal chemists". For example, you could go to any school and get a Ph.D. in organic chemistry and then go to work any setting in which your focus is the synthesis of new medicinals, and be considered a "medicinal chemist".

So, as you can see this is a wholly distinct profession than pharmacists who dispense drugs or work in clinical settings as a part of the medical team. Pharmacologists are Ph.D's who study the mechanisms by which drugs interact with living systems to elicit an effect.

However, to pursue a DO/PHD or MD/PHD is wholly with an eye towards a research career. Not to say you can't be a clinician for sure, but... the medicinal chemistry knowledge would have little application in the clinical setting, as traditionally doctoral programs have a narrow focus when it comes to your thesis.

Hope this helps to clarify...
 
This information is clarifying things for me, thank you PharmD and RDJ.

RDJ: I did a good bit of research on Naturopathic before deciding on DO. I found that DO was what I was looking for. But thank you for mentioning naturopathic. In speaking with Canadian aquaintances, I have found that Naturopaths are given more authority in Canada than in the States. I've also discovered that our DO is not the same as a DO in Europe. In Europe they are licensed as physical therapists. It's all quite confusing. Anyway, I am enjoying organic chem. (No I'm not ill.) And I hope to find some way to work with patients and "chemical creations" in my future.
 
I thought PCOM had a DO/PhD program with, I believe, Drexel University.

Tim of New York City.
 
Their MBA and MPH programs are in conjunction with St. Joseph?s and Temple, respectively. They have an MS in Biomedical Science, but no PhD program. The students I know there say the PhD program is supposedly on the way. However, since this is not where my interest lies, I have not tried to confirm this.

On this same note, there are a few other schools that are "rumored" to be expanding their dual degree options beyond the Master's level within the next 2-4 years, namely UHS and NSU. As everyone knows, it is not the quality of instruction that makes a school famous and gets it big grants, it is the quality of the research that it produces. Great ?teachers? do not get their picture on the cover of ?Newsweek?, however, great researchers do. The few deans I have heard speak; have confirmed this is the current sentiment. The D.O. schools are trying to capitalize on the momentum they have shared over the last two decades. They want to maintain their primary care focus, while expanding in other arenas. More and more matriculating students are choosing to go to a D.O. school, even when accepted to M.D. institutions. This can be attributed to a few things, some of which are a marked increase in AOA advertising (e.g. full page ads in USA Today) and D.O. schools being ranked in that dreaded US News list (everyone quotes from this list, e.g. when I interviewed at UT-San Antonio they quoted from this list because they were ranked in Urology and Orthopedics. The University Health System is now using the fact in their newspaper and TV ads, "among the top 100 hospitals in America"). In addition, when congress passed ?that bill? which limited the amount of money that residency programs receive when they take in FMG's, residency directors began looking harder at D.O. graduates. This combined with the fact that you see more and more D.O.'s in those "big name residencies" (in a proportionate amount of course) and the fact that the number of practicing D.O.'s is expected to substantially increase in the next ten years, means D.O.'s are quickly becoming a even larger force in the American health care. It will be exciting to watch.
As long as it continues to be a "team approach" and the MD vs. DO thing is looked at as an option for students interested in medicine, instead of ?us vs. them? concept. I think it will work out nicely. It is tough though, there is so much ego rapped up in the whole ?Doctor? thing that sometimes the focus is lost. In focus, I mean ?helping people? and improving the quality and quantity of healthy years that we live.

Sorry about the tangent, I just like to talk about this stuff. I am very happy to be heading off to a D.O. school.

Turtleboard: you seem to be a knowledgeable guy, if you see an error in my reasoning, point it out. I always welcome other opinions/points of view.
 
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Hopefully to put an end to this...

The DO "vs." MD topic is a dead issue. If an MD from Harvard or UCSF works with an MD from IOWA then the only factor which after the first impression will play into the interaction is does this doctor from IOWA know his stuff. If so, then... DO, MD whatever.

The thing that most physicians get "wrapped up in" that they stop focusing on the patient is the sheer number of cases they see, as well as the number of patients they come into contact with who are "train wrecks" due to their own negligence of self-care.

Idealism is great... as long as it can be realistically tempered with... well reality...

There are prejudices out there no matter what. I am sure some MD's cannot get into certain residencies no matter what based upon where they attended.
 
P.S.

I agree with RDJ that the focus for most schools is with research and publications.
This is no different than ever... except for DO curriculums.

High profile is what schools need and want as well as research dollars. This is what keeps schools going round and round...
 
PharmD.

How did this turn into an MD vs. DO issue. I agree with you, when it comes to producing physicians it is a dead issue. Whether or not you want to be a MD or DO is up to you, your personal preferences and what your career goals are. So how did this become an issue on this post? I do not understand your point or the motivation for your comments.

The point of the conversation was PhD. programs and how they are expanding. DO schools have never been heavily into research. My point is that this is changing. That fact combined with other things going on in the world of health care is increasing the visibility of D.O. schools. I could care less if someone rather be an MD or a DO, but what bothers me is many do not even know it is an option. Worse than this though, is there are still a few misinformed individuals out there who give terrible advice on the subject. I realize I got off the subject of the post, but I saw it as a way to include some thoughts I had and to share what I have learned recently about the growing number of DO/PhD programs. A decade or two ago, there was a real animosity shared between the to types of physicians. However, my nearly ten years of experience in health care shows that this is all but ameliorated (there will always be ego types). The other point I wanted to make at the end, was actually a personally desire-- As the D.O. schools continue to grow and gain more notoriety, I do not want to see the AOA and the AMA get into a marketing war over who is the better producer of health care/physicians. I want it to remain a team concept with the same shared goal in mind: ?helping people? and ?improving the quality and quantity of healthy years that we live.?

What did I say that invoked such a response?
 
Originally posted by Homonculus:
OSU-COM also has a dual DO/PhD program....

take it easy

Homonculus
Thanks Homonculus! That's the type of info I'm looking for. (Things got a little off track.)
 
Ohio University COM also has a DO/PhD program. The director of the program interviewed me, and he was really excited about establishing a strong research tradition at OU. I guess the program is pretty new. The school was also introducing research electives for its students. I think these steps will be very important to strengthening the reputaion of not only OU, but DO schools in general!
 
RDJ that is a great site. I didn't realize there was so much info out there. Thank you.

Mango that's an interesting tip about Ohio. Did you do research as an undergrad? If so in what area? Thanks
 
dolly, no I didn't do any research in undergrad. I think my being interviewed by him was simply luck of the draw. However I will say that I felt during that interview day that the school was giving all of us the "Hard Sell." What I mean is, they seemed to be trying very hard to impress us. For example, at the three MD schools I interviewed at, luch consisted of a sandwhich, chips, cookie, and pop. But at OU, there was a caterred buffet, complete with those large silver serving things (?), and people in chef's hats serving the food. Another example, at MD school, tours were led by students. At OU my tour was led by one of the assistant Deans.

I guess my point is, that having department chairs doing interviews is probably another means of impressing upon students the "excellence" of the school.

This is just my take on the day, any one else with OU-COM experiences out there?
 
Mango,
Chefs hats and silver trays. Oooooooooooo. But what did the facilities look like? Or did they give you a decent tour of the med school? I know you can't tell a book by its cover, but from all the schools you visited, which facility did you like most? And did you have any opportunities to speak with current med students? Thanks.
 
drusso,
Are you involved in either of those programs? I'd be interested in hearing from someone who is doing the the double DO/ or MD/research(PhD) track. I'd like to know how the classes all fit in together and the time issue involved. Thanks for responding.
 
Originally posted by dolly:
My acquaintances who are pharmacy majors do not have any chem after orgo II and don't seem to think that what I am referring to is something they would be doing.

What school are these pharmacy students going to? When I went to pharmacy school we had so much chemistry that we had the option of a double major with only 1 more semester of chemistry. After organic we still had Biochemistry (5 hours), Medicinal Biochemistry (3 hours), Medicinal Chemistry 1 (5 hours), and Medicinal Chemistry 2 (5 hours).
 
Hi Pilot,

I'm at Wayne. Two pre-pharmacy students have told me that the orgo II class we are all in now will be their last required chemistry.
 
Hi again Pilot,
I just re-read your message. You misunderstood. I'm a pre-osteo/pre-med and all my colleagues (if you will) are pre-pharmacy. I know they will encounter more chemistry in pharmacy school. Thanks
 
Sorry for the misunderstanding. We always referred to those in pharmacy school as pharmacy majors, and those attempting to get in as pre-pharmacy majors, similar to pre-med majors.
 
You are correct in that Pilot. I guess we just get a little optomistic sometimes in calling ourselves pharmacy or med students when we should respect those whom have made it in and keep the "pre" label for ourselves. I've also noticed that there are cross-postings on this site. (For instance, pre-meds post on the osteopathic and the allopathic site.) I'll give more care next time. Thanks
 
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