DO as a Dermatologists

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DeltaPlaya

DeltaPlaya

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I heard dermatology is the most competitive residency in medicine is this true? Also does going to DO school make this even tougher?
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DeltaPlaya said:
I heard dermatology is the most competitive residency in medicine is this true? Also does going to DO school make this even tougher?
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Yes it is very competitive. Going to DO school would make it tougher to get an allo residency, but obviously would make it easier to get a DO derm residency.

If you are smart enough (i.e. did well enough on the MCAT) to be competitive for both, then you probably won't end up at a DO school.
 
Frank l said:
If you are smart enough (i.e. did well enough on the MCAT) to be competitive for both, then you probably won't end up at a DO school.
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Awaits the **** storm created by saying DO's are the stupid students and can't do dermatology.
 
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TriagePreMed said:
Awaits the **** storm created by saying DO's are the stupid students and can't do dermatology.
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Personally, I don't think dermatology is all that hard. It is, however, competitive. Many people in medicine fail to make that distinction. Primary care is hard, but not competitive. You don't see the genius's flocking to that do you?

By the way, the bit about "smart enough" was a little tongue in cheek, as I am a DO.
 
DeltaPlaya said:
I heard dermatology is the most competitive residency in medicine is this true? Also does going to DO school make this even tougher?
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You won't make it into dermatology either way (no joke) ... so don't worry about it.

Frankly, there are a million different ways of looking at it. Some people state it's easier from MD because there are a far greater number of MD residencies; some people say that you shouldn't dismiss the AOA DO option because it's very much about 'who you know' and if you build those solid connections, you won't have to necessarily achieve the perfect boards, honors, multiple derm publications, etc, etc that you would on the ACGME side.

In a pure numbers game, yes ... it's more difficult for a DO to match dermatology. From a real world perspective, the fact that you'll 99% change your mind in school and then 90% chance that you won't have the grades or connections to make it regardless (nothing personal, just truth), makes the argument irrelevant.

Get into the best school you can, get good grades, keep your options open, etc.
 
JaggerPlate said:
You won't make it into dermatology either way (no joke) ... so don't worry about it.

Frankly, there are a million different ways of looking at it. Some people state it's easier from MD because there are a far greater number of MD residencies; some people say that you shouldn't dismiss the AOA DO option because it's very much about 'who you know' and if you build those solid connections, you won't have to necessarily achieve the perfect boards, honors, multiple derm publications, etc, etc that you would on the ACGME side.

In a pure numbers game, yes ... it's more difficult for a DO to match dermatology. From a real world perspective, the fact that you'll 99% change your mind in school and then 90% chance that you won't have the grades or connections to make it regardless (nothing personal, just truth), makes the argument irrelevant.

Get into the best school you can, get good grades, keep your options open, etc.
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You're right I suppose. I was just curious since I was interested in dermatology, it's one of the few I am curious about, but most likely my curiosity will shift and I will have another set of interests in the medical field. I guess the only thing that would go in my way for dermatology is my strong connections (my uncle is a very prominent and powerful person in a couple of metro areas regarding medicine).

Thanks for the info.
 
DeltaPlaya said:
You're right I suppose. I was just curious since I was interested in dermatology, it's one of the few I am curious about, but most likely my curiosity will shift and I will have another set of interests in the medical field. I guess the only thing that would go in my way for dermatology is my strong connections (my uncle is a very prominent and powerful person in a couple of metro areas regarding medicine).

Thanks for the info.
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Nothing wrong with being curious. Research it all you can in school and if it's where you want to go ... do all you can to make connections (i.e. see what your uncle can do for you).
 
www.willkirby.com

www.kirbydermatology.com

www.zieringmedical.com (DO derm who is now probably the most successful hair transplant surgeon in LA, was on the show "extreme makeover" for a while, has been on "The Doctors" multiple times, etc)

http://www.advancedderm.com/medical-professionals/type/1/Physicians.aspx (a ton of different DO derms - as an aside, Matt L. Leavitt, DO is the founder of "Medical Hair Restoration" the world's second largest hair transplant company/chain of clinics that recently sold to Bosley for a VERY handsome profit).

http://www.aocd.org/ (all the DO derms you could want to see)

etc, etc, etc ... obviously a lot of DO derms out there.
 
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LifeTake2 said:
Meanwhile....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43497455/ns/health-cancer/

I appears the wait to see a dermatologist (MD or DO) is now so long there are growing concerns of people dying from waiting so long to be seen!
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Yeah, derm in general has been "smart" and kept the number of residency positions extremely small. Because of this, there are only like 100 - something new dermatologists minted each year which makes the volume of patients huge and allows derms to see like 50 people a day and make a decent salary.

The answer is to probably open more derm residencies ... even though you'll just see more people flocking into derms, practicing in big cities where there are already 25 other derms, reimbursement rates go down, etc. Obviously it's good for patients though and FAR better than the alternative, which is NPs playing dermatologist.
 
is this the same for DO's trying to get into Optho??? Because this is ridiculous if DO's want to be treated like MD's then maybe the should have just as many residency spots available for osteopathic competitive specialties
 
JaggerPlate said:
www.willkirby.com

www.kirbydermatology.com

www.zieringmedical.com (DO derm who is now probably the most successful hair transplant surgeon in LA, was on the show "extreme makeover" for a while, has been on "The Doctors" multiple times, etc)

http://www.advancedderm.com/medical-professionals/type/1/Physicians.aspx (a ton of different DO derms - as an aside, Matt L. Leavitt, DO is the founder of "Medical Hair Restoration" the world's second largest hair transplant company/chain of clinics that recently sold to Bosley for a VERY handsome profit).

http://www.aocd.org/ (all the DO derms you could want to see)

etc, etc, etc ... obviously a lot of DO derms out there.
Click to expand...


wow, thanks for all that
 
DeltaPlaya said:
I heard dermatology is the most competitive residency in medicine is this true? Also does going to DO school make this even tougher?
Click to expand...

Honestly, yes it will make it harder. The M.D applicants will have dibs first whether you have good scores as well. But, there are D.O applicants who do get in, or go a diff route to become a dermatologist, same thing with other competitive specialties.
 
JaggerPlate said:
www.willkirby.com

www.kirbydermatology.com

www.zieringmedical.com (DO derm who is now probably the most successful hair transplant surgeon in LA, was on the show "extreme makeover" for a while, has been on "The Doctors" multiple times, etc)

http://www.advancedderm.com/medical-professionals/type/1/Physicians.aspx (a ton of different DO derms - as an aside, Matt L. Leavitt, DO is the founder of "Medical Hair Restoration" the world's second largest hair transplant company/chain of clinics that recently sold to Bosley for a VERY handsome profit).

http://www.aocd.org/ (all the DO derms you could want to see)

etc, etc, etc ... obviously a lot of DO derms out there.
Click to expand...

Will Kirby has been very successful mainly because of Hollywood. A couple interesting pieces of information on him. He actually had to do a internal medicine residency before getting his derm residency which was unfunded. This is somewhat common in DO derm. Also, the procedures that he does (tattoo removal, botox, etc) actually require very little training and can be performed by nurses and below in many states.

Regarding the original topic, I think that derm can be a real trap for many med students. It is possible to be a top notch student who has done all the right things and still not match because you did not kiss the right behind or someone else did IMO.
 
TheSeanieB said:
Will Kirby has been very successful mainly because of Hollywood. A couple interesting pieces of information on him. He actually had to do a internal medicine residency before getting his derm residency which was unfunded. This is somewhat common in DO derm. Also, the procedures that he does (tattoo removal, botox, etc) actually require very little training and can be performed by nurses and below in many states.
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I think he actually just did a TRI or maybe even an internal medicine internship (meaning he was supposed to start PGY2 IM when he was done), then took a few years off to do the Big Brother/TV thing, then was able to leverage connections into the DO derm residency at Pacific Hospital in Long Beach which yes ... is unfunded, but I don't think it mattered to him at that point.

Also, it's no secret that non-invasive derm procedures don't take board certification to perform. Techs are the ones who actually perform the laser procedures, and technically almost anyone with some sort of health professional training can take a weekend course and inject Botox. I know a guy who's dad is a dentist and does Botox.

Additionally, it's my understanding that neither PRS or derm residents even get any training for most of the cosmetic stuff in residency.
 
Don't DO's have their own derm residencies?

brb 3.3 GPA, 27 MCAT
brb do awesome in DO school and rock the COMLEX
brb make $350k+ while working stress free 4 days a week, 7 hrs a day with no call
 
flatearth22 said:
Don't DO's have their own derm residencies?

brb 3.3 GPA, 27 MCAT
brb do awesome in DO school and rock the COMLEX
brb make $350k+ while working stress free 4 days a week, 7 hrs a day with no call
Click to expand...

yeah. It's also interesting because DO derm places far less emphasis on boards than MD. MD it's bascially some combination of 240+, honors on most rotations, derm publications, AOA or your app gets laughed at.

For DO, grades/boards matter but since there aren't any (or many) categorical positions, you have to basically dominate intern year and build connections then to secure a spot.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I think he actually just did a TRI or maybe even an internal medicine internship (meaning he was supposed to start PGY2 IM when he was done), then took a few years off to do the Big Brother/TV thing, then was able to leverage connections into the DO derm residency at Pacific Hospital in Long Beach which yes ... is unfunded, but I don't think it mattered to him at that point.
Click to expand...

Guy is a sharp cookie. Matched into interventional rads or radonc before internship- TV- Derm.
 
patel2 said:
yeah. It's also interesting because DO derm places far less emphasis on boards than MD. MD it's bascially some combination of 240+, honors on most rotations, derm publications, AOA or your app gets laughed at.

For DO, grades/boards matter but since there aren't any (or many) categorical positions, you have to basically dominate intern year and build connections then to secure a spot.
Click to expand...

Rotating with one of the two categorical (sort of. They always match FM+Derm at once) derm DO residents at my hospital right now. She is sharp as a tack. IDK what her board scores were specifically, but she's definitely got the smarts, from what I can tell, to be in that exclusive high scoring group. Though I don't suspect she is a breaking-of-the-mold genius, so I'm going to suggest that connections and getting to know the derm program directors is the big foot in the door step to take.
 
patel2 said:
yeah. It's also interesting because DO derm places far less emphasis on boards than MD. MD it's bascially some combination of 240+, honors on most rotations, derm publications, AOA or your app gets laughed at.

For DO, grades/boards matter but since there aren't any (or many) categorical positions, you have to basically dominate intern year and build connections then to secure a spot.
Click to expand...

kem cho? that's all i wanted to say
 
DocEspana said:
Rotating with one of the two categorical (sort of. They always match FM+Derm at once) derm DO residents at my hospital right now. She is sharp as a tack. IDK what her board scores were specifically, but she's definitely got the smarts, from what I can tell, to be in that exclusive high scoring group. Though I don't suspect she is a breaking-of-the-mold genius, so I'm going to suggest that connections and getting to know the derm program directors is the big foot in the door step to take.
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You have a link to this program?
 
Didn't read the thread. However, everyone I personally knew from the class above me that really wanted to derm got a spot. NSU has 27 derm spots by itself. Yes, they were exceptional candidates; there is a self-selection in this whole process that isnt factored into this anecdote. If you happen to still want to do one of the most boring specialties once you finishing up your D.O., and provided you're pretty sharp and dedicated, you should be able to match derm. Personally, my gf was basically offered a spot in an IM+Derm program, but chose to do EM instead.
 
JaggerPlate said:
You have a link to this program?
Click to expand...

The programs website

opportunities

Opportunities has it listed as 2 spots per year with an unknown first year. Currently the last few years its been both spots matching to the FM year and the Derm year in tandem, so no PGY1 applicants as the spots are filled right from the graduating 4th years match.
 
DocEspana said:
The programs website

opportunities

Opportunities has it listed as 2 spots per year with an unknown first year. Currently the last few years its been both spots matching to the FM year and the Derm year in tandem, so no PGY1 applicants as the spots are filled right from the graduating 4th years match.
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The IM/derm and FM/derm integrated DO programs seem like a sweet gig to me. Thanks for the update.
 
MedicineMike said:
They have those? Had no idea...
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To my knowledge, there is only one AOA program like this in Florida. It's essentially an IM residency where you match into a secondary derm residency (they call it a fellowship, but it's an accredited AOA derm residency) at the same time and go straight into it after your internship and 2 years of IM. I really like the idea of these combined programs.
 
JaggerPlate said:
To my knowledge, there is only one AOA program like this in Florida. It's essentially an IM residency where you match into a secondary derm residency (they call it a fellowship, but it's an accredited AOA derm residency) at the same time and go straight into it after your internship and 2 years of IM. I really like the idea of these combined programs.
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as per the resident: even though it says its 1 year of 'anything' and 3 years of derm, its actually 4 years of FM where I do derm specifically a few months every year.

Thats a pretty good deal. You get a derm who is highly qualified to handle anything that comes in the door, not just the usual "wet it, dry it, steroid it, or biopsy it" choices we lampoon derms as only choosing from.
 
JaggerPlate said:
To my knowledge, there is only one AOA program like this in Florida. It's essentially an IM residency where you match into a secondary derm residency (they call it a fellowship, but it's an accredited AOA derm residency) at the same time and go straight into it after your internship and 2 years of IM. I really like the idea of these combined programs.
Click to expand...

So how many years total is it?
 
Eh ... there seems to be some confusion here. I need clarification as well, but this is the way AOA derm residencies work to my knowledge:

1. the traditional route ... you match to a TRI and apply for a 3 year AOA derm residency during your intern year - four years total.

2. the IM/derm route ... this is the program in Florida. According to the website, it's an internship, 2 years of IM, then 3 years of derm, meaning a total of 6 years.

3. the FM/derm route (program in NY) ... I was under the impression that this would be the same format as the IM/derm (internship, 2 years of FM, 3 years of derm), but Espana makes it sound like it's 4 years total and essentially a completely integrated FM/derm residency???
 
JaggerPlate said:
Eh ... there seems to be some confusion here. I need clarification as well, but this is the way AOA derm residencies work to my knowledge:

1. the traditional route ... you match to a TRI and apply for a 3 year AOA derm residency during your intern year - four years total.

2. the IM/derm route ... this is the program in Florida. According to the website, it's an internship, 2 years of IM, then 3 years of derm, meaning a total of 6 years.

3. the FM/derm route (program in NY) ... I was under the impression that this would be the same format as the IM/derm (internship, 2 years of FM, 3 years of derm), but Espana makes it sound like it's 4 years total and essentially a completely integrated FM/derm residency???
Click to expand...

I'll double check with the resident, cause I didnt see her today, but it does seem to be a 4 year deal, fully integrated. Opportunities has it listed as a PGY2-4 thing, but I know for certain its integrated. Its just a matter of being 4 or 5 years. And she definitely matched right off the bat cause her badge says FM intern and she's on the hospital intra-net roster as a derm PGY1.
 
DocEspana said:
I'll double check with the resident, cause I didnt see her today, but it does seem to be a 4 year deal, fully integrated. Opportunities has it listed as a PGY2-4 thing, but I know for certain its integrated. Its just a matter of being 4 or 5 years. And she definitely matched right off the bat cause her badge says FM intern and she's on the hospital intra-net roster as a derm PGY1.
Click to expand...

Awesome. Going to definitely investigate this program. PM me if you want to talk about it more or anything :D
 
JaggerPlate said:
Awesome. Going to definitely investigate this program. PM me if you want to talk about it more or anything :D
Click to expand...

Yeah, I am quite interested in this now as well. Especially if it is a 4 yr program.

If you do the integrated IM/Derm residency can you become certified in both IM and Derm separately? Further, could you pursue an IM fellowship afterwards as well?
 
DeltaPlaya said:
I heard dermatology is the most competitive residency in medicine is this true? Also does going to DO school make this even tougher?
Click to expand...

Yes. Yes. But it is possible. For example, last year someone from AZCOM matched ACGME/Mayo Clinic Rochester/Derm. Don't give up, work hard, you will get it (if you want it) :)
 
Just realized we have 3 DO derms at the academic hospital I work at...
 
JaggerPlate said:
Awesome. Going to definitely investigate this program. PM me if you want to talk about it more or anything :D
Click to expand...

Big time correction. Talked with the resident and she said that the normal pathway (one year of CRI and 3 years of derm) is technically the program, but that no one has done it that way in a while. Its a 6 year program for them with dual certification in family med and derm. 3 years of family med with a few months of derm here and there and then 3 years of derm with a few months of family med here and there.
 
DocEspana said:
Big time correction. Talked with the resident and she said that the normal pathway (one year of CRI and 3 years of derm) is technically the program, but that no one has done it that way in a while. Its a 6 year program for them with dual certification in family med and derm. 3 years of family med with a few months of derm here and there and then 3 years of derm with a few months of family med here and there.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification. :thumbup:
 
So the regular way is to go and do a rotating internship for a year and then match into a 2nd year derm program? But what if you don't match? Is it a huge gamble?
 
lkthlttr said:
So the regular way is to go and do a rotating internship for a year and then match into a 2nd year derm program? But what if you don't match? Is it a huge gamble?
Click to expand...

Basically yes. I imagine most folks gunning for derm would be hugely dissapointed in AOA IM/FM if they couldn't get into derm after intern year.

So really you need to be a huge baller who is sharp and confident enough that you will be one of the few to hit the jackpot. The pathway has its pros/cons...the average academic student may be able to dominate clinically and network intern year to get that spot (impossible in the MD world), while the gunner top 5% DO student may go all in and be stuck in FM if he has a lackluster intern year (which an MD wouldn't have to worry about since it's categorical)
 
patel2 said:
Basically yes. I imagine most folks gunning for derm would be hugely dissapointed in AOA IM/FM if they couldn't get into derm after intern year.

So really you need to be a huge baller who is sharp and confident enough that you will be one of the few to hit the jackpot. The pathway has its pros/cons...the average academic student may be able to dominate clinically and network intern year to get that spot (impossible in the MD world), while the gunner top 5% DO student may go all in and be stuck in FM if he has a lackluster intern year (which an MD wouldn't have to worry about since it's categorical)
Click to expand...

I having a sneaking suspicion it may be all about really networking and securing a spot with a handshake before you even start your intern year. Just going straight into your intern year with no real solid derm connection would just be so nuts.
 
Not in Mongolia.
 
JaggerPlate said:
I having a sneaking suspicion it may be all about really networking and securing a spot with a handshake before you even start your intern year. Just going straight into your intern year with no real solid derm connection would just be so nuts.
Click to expand...

This sounds right to me. I just could not see making that kind of bet without some real solid tangible evidence that there would be a payoff waiting for me at the end of it.
 
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