DO = bone doctor? ?

[Dr. Nick]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by migraineboy:
•Dr. Nick - so are you trying to imply that allopathic students never have any free time? You can't tell me that everyone heads right from class to the library 'til 2 AM everyday. I mean, everyone has to break for pork rinds now and then!•••••Hey, i'm all in favor of pork rinds. I do not, however, believe we spend more time eating pork rinds when compared to DO students.

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[Dr. Nick]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Ice Man:
•Right. The theoretical mean is what the NBME predicts the mean to be. The actual mean is what it really is, in your case 215. They try for 200 SD 15. Also, I would bet that the COMLEX and USMLE are slighty different style/content tests (correct me if I'm wrong). DO students (or current DO's) that I know say they get a little less biochem and a little more anatomy in their curriculum. Again I am not sure about that either, but I do know that on a percentage scale the COMLEX has less of the useless biochem and more of the useless anatomy.•••••But, wait a minute. I thought USMLE scores were supposedly standardized so that a 200 one year means the same as a 200 the next year. If actual SD differs from this "theoretical SD" from year to year, that is not possible - and would make any comparison totally wacko. I don't think this is true.

For example, in my test year - 2000. My score of 239 put me at about 89%. However, let's assume for example's sake that in 1999 the actual SD matched the "theoretical SD." Let's further assume that Ozzy Ozbourne took the USMLE in 1999 and scored a 230.

If you compare my 239 to Ozzy's 230 you will see that despite the fact that I was 89% and Ozzy kicked ass at 99% - my 239 still looks better than Ozzys score.

Now, let's imagine Ozzy has always wanted to be the "Dermatologist to the Stars" - and has had his heart set on a Mass General Derm Residency since he was a fetus. Perhaps, he does a year of Derm research after graduation to make his residency application $$.

That puts him in the same group of residency applicants as me, but even though he did better than me, my score looks higher than Ozzy's!

Great deal for me, but Ozzy got the shaft and is now liable to start gutting live baby pigs.

 

[Test Boy]

I suspect that the mean at KCOM isn't even at the 85th percentile. It is probably 85 on the 2 digit scale which is about 215 (the national mean). Seems like people forget to make that distinction all the time. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Dr. Nick]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by osteodoc13:
• •••quote:•••Originally posted by osteodoc13:
•Dr. Nick:

If your attendings are looking to hyperactivity of the sympathetic nervous system producing localized immune defeciency as evidenced by changes in the musculoskeletal system, then they are simply practicing what Osteopaths practice. I agree that all of medicine is becoming more "holistic," but instead of seeing this as a refutation of Osteopathic philosophy, I see it as an acceptance, albeit unsaid. Thus for many GOOD physicians the difference lies in the use of the musculoskeletal system for diagnosis and treatment.
•••••Dr. Nick:

I'm still waiting for a reply to the above statement about what your attendings are looking for in terms of "causes" of septicemia...•••••Hi Osteodoc,

I don't usually answer statements, so that may have explained the delay. I'm sorry I didn't realize you were posing an actual question.

At the risk of stating the obvious, I would have to say that the differential on septicemia would depend to a large extent on the circumstances of the patient. (Is the patient a homeless alcoholic, Does the patient have indwelling lines or catheters, etc., etc.)

Is there something, specifically, you are interested in regarding septicemia?

If you read back you will see I posted a long list of psycho-social-economic-lifestyle factors that my attendings often encourage, nay, pimp us on in regards to the potential causations and contributing factors of disease.

Cheers,
Dr. Nick

 

[Ice Man]

Sorry dude, I didn't invent the thing I just pass along the info. Take it up with NBME.

 

[Dr. MAXY]

Dr. Nick,
From the begining, you said you just wanted to know whether there are any real differences between an MD and a DO, and if there were, what those differences might be, I respected that.
But now, it seems like you are just trying to compare and contrast MDs and DOs. You are trying to confer your superiority as an allopathic student. Others maybe enjoying your WISE A$$ critiques and quotes, but I really do not find them amusing. As a medical student, you should rather be trying to get along with other medical professionals, whom you will be working together with in the future to enhance the health of your patients. When you start practicing, ARE YOU GOING TO BE TELLING YOU PATIENTS AND NURSES WHY YOU ARE BETTER THAN THEM OR WHY YOUR MD DEGREE IS BETTER THAN THEM?,
I personally think you are one of those folks who applied to both DO an MD programs, and was rejected by DO schools and accepted by MD program. Hence, you are still in shock and trying to understand why you where rejected by a DO school. You are now taking this opportunity to regian you lost ego.
Thank Heaven DO schools look at the whole individual during interviews cos WISE A$$ folks like you will not make it into a DO program. Yea, MD schools accepts students with high stats, and don't forget that some of the Notorious criminals in this modern world are folks with high stats in school. Eg..the Ted Kesenski (sp) (UniBomber), The Osama Bin Ladins etc....
A physician should be a well rounded person, not just someone with high stats.
Anyways enuff of that, I'M REALLY TIRED OF YOUR CHILDISH COMPARISMS, DOs AND MDs ARE BOTH PHYSICIANS, SO GET OVER IT. I DON'T CARE WHETHER YOUR SCHOOL STUDIES GENETICS, PORNOGRAPHY, OR WHATEVER. WE AT DO SCHOOLS ARE HAPPY WITH WHAT WE STUDY AND WE PASS OUR LICENSING EXAMS.
I can't wait to see what you will compare next, maybe you next comparisms will be MDs AND DOs WHO HAS THE CUTIEST WIVES, BEST CARS, WHO SMOKE THE MOST EXPENSIVE CIGARS, or SOME DUMB STUFF. Before you talk about DO students not doing so great on the USMLE, I will like to see you pass the COMPLEX first.
Oh Yea, If you find any spelling errors in my post, You can put them in your pipe and smoke cos I don't give a hoot.
kwasia panin a eti se wo. Wo ye kwasia ba paaa.

 

[Mr. happy clown guy]

student doctor Nick,

I am curious...do you always determine worth based upon standardized test grades...namely the USMLE??
I wonder, do you do the same generalizations about other ethnic groups that take the USMLE and don't do as well as you? If, as a whole, Native American medical students (as a group), don't score as well as Asian Americans...what kind of conclusions do you make from that.

You stated earlier that motivation was the factor to scoring well on the USMLE...are groups that score poorly unmotivated...or simply unlucky?

 

[Dr. MAXY]

Mr. happy clown guy ,
Very Well Said. I totally agree with you.

 

[Sweaty Paul]

Test Boy,

You can suspect all you want. As I mentioned in my earlier post the President of the NBME came here and met with the administration and Student Government and told us we scored in the 85% which was much better than the national allopathic average. By the way, I met the guy, and was at the meeting where he was looking for our student perspectives on why we performed so well. Could he have mis-spoke sure, we can all make mistakes, however, I am accurately reporting what was said at that meeting.

Dr. Nick,

I apologize you if you thought that I was implying that you all had more free-time than those of us who take OTM/OMM, that wasn't my intent. My intention was to show you that we really don't study for the course, there isn't a good way to study for it, you go to the labs, learn how to do a technique and its mechanics and go back to the lecture hall to get more lecture. Before an exam, you might review the specifics of each technique and call it good. The most important thing for OTM exams is a good night of rest so you don't get lost when deciphering a dx of a somatic dysfunction and thence pick the wrong mechanics (treatment) to correct the prob. If you wish to believe that we all study for OTM and that it takes lots of time from other things please continue to do so, however, the facts are it doesn't require much study at all.

As to SWEATY,

Yeah I sweat a lot. It is both a curse and a curse. There is a large genetic component, however, losing 20 lbs would likely help some, though I'd still be gross. Pits, back, chest, head everything drips, I've just grown accustomed to it and so I'll have to pick a specialty where I get to be in a lot of A/C, perhaps surg, anesthesia, radiology, pathology if you know of any other areas of hospital that are kept really cold let me know.

Sweaty Paul MS-II
KCOM

 

[osteodoc13]

Dr. Nick:

Let me back up and explain myself. I wanted you to reply to the following statement:

"If your attendings are looking to hyperactivity of the sympathetic nervous system producing localized immune defeciency as evidenced by changes in the musculoskeletal system, then they are simply practicing what Osteopaths practice."

I am interested to see if they are as in tune to the effects of the soma on the visceral system as an Osteopath would be.

 

[Pi_Guy1]

I'm glad I'm going into Dentistry so that I don't have to deal with this crap! <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

 

[Dr. Nick]

Dr. Maxy,

"From the begining, you said you just wanted to know whether there are any real differences between an MD and a DO, and if there were, what those differences might be, I respected that."

Good.

"But now, it seems like you are just trying to compare and contrast MDs and DOs."

How exactly does "comparing and contrasting MDs and DOs" depart from the first quote where you said you respected my desire to "know whether there are any real differences between an MD and a DO"?

That just doesn't make sense.

Look, dont't shoot the messenger just because you don't like the message. As the old saying goes, "no one can make you feel inferior without your consent."

I'm sorry if you can't tolerate dissent, skepticism, or contrary opinions - but I don't see that as my problem. Osteopathy & Allopathy are both scientific fields - as such, I believe, they should both be completely open to scrutiny. I don't believe that trying to crush dissent or contrary opinions is particularly useful or healthy.

If you don't like what I say, don't waste your time complaining to me - convince me that i'm wrong. I believe that is called, 'debate.'

Cheers.

 

[John DO]

Here is an interesting study discussed on PubMed that may add some fuel for the original discussion in here:

<a href="http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1832.50845" target="_blank">http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1832.50845</a>

"May 20, 2002 -- A popular but little-studied method of easing neck pain by moving the patient's neck in specific ways may be more effective than traditional physical therapy or a physician's care. A new study shows manual therapy -- practiced in the U.S. by chiropractors, osteopaths, and some physical and massage therapists -- was best in improving neck mobility and reducing pain.

Neck pain is common health problem, especially among older adults, and affects between 10% and 15% of the population. Although a variety of therapies are used to treat the condition, few studies have compared their effectiveness.

In this study, researchers compared three common treatments for neck pain in 183 patients with chronic neck pain: continued, routine care by a doctor (usually pain medications and rest), manual therapy, and physical therapy. Manual therapy consisted of a trained specialist manipulating the patient's neck, while physical therapy involved use of a trained therapist who assisted the patient in performing a series of active exercises.

After 7 weeks of treatment, 68.3% of the patients in the manual therapy group said they felt either completely recovered or much improved compared with 50.8% of the patients in the physical therapy group and 35.9% of the patients under their doctor's care alone.

"We found that manual therapy was more effective than continued care, and our results consistently favored manual therapy on almost all outcome measures," writes study author Jan Lucas Hoving, PhD, and colleagues from Cabrini Medical Centre in Victoria, Australia. "Although physical therapy scored slightly better than continued care, most of the differences were not statistically significant."

Their complete report appears in the May 21 issue of the Annals of Internal Medicine.

Disability levels improved among all three groups, but there were no significant differences between the groups. Range of motion improved more among the manual and physical therapy groups. And patients receiving manual therapy had fewer absences from work than the others."

 

[John DO]

Ok, I clearly have many tests to be studying for, or else I wouldn't be on here posting so much tonight!

I also found this following definition on PubMed to provide a smidgeon of insight into the meaning of Osteopathy (to only apply the intuitive definition clearly demonstrates a lack of research into the etiology):

(os??te-op?ah-the) 1. any disease of a bone. 2. a system of therapy utilizing generally accepted physical, medicinal, and surgical methods of diagnosis and therapy, and emphasizing the importance of normal body mechanics and manipulative methods of detecting and correcting faulty structure. adj., osteopath?ic.
Osteopathy is founded on the theory that the body is capable of producing the remedies necessary to protect itself against disease and other toxic conditions when it is in normal structural relationship and has favorable environmental conditions and adequate nutrition.
During the past few decades, many changes have been made in the practice of osteopathy, bringing it closely into line with conventional medical practices. While still holding to the tenet that the body is a unit that possesses the inherent ability to overcome most curable diseases, osteopaths recognize that physical, chemical, and nutritional factors influence the state of health and that medicines and surgery are necessary in the treatment of disease. Disorders that can be recognized are treated as distinct diseases, and manipulation may or may not be used as an adjunct to other treatment.

 

[mikeaparker]

Great Finds John DO eom....

Mike

 

[dcdo]

If I may digress,

My brother, shortly before my graduation, approached me at a family dinner and asked "So when are you going to be an orthopedic?" <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> :wink:

Boy, I'm going to miss spending all day reading these threads. 13 more days!!!!

 

[HoneyHunter]

<a href="http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1668.50153" target="_blank">web page</a>

<a href="http://my.webmd.com/content/article/1728.53214" target="_blank">web page</a> <img border="0" alt="[Pity]" title="" src="graemlins/pity.gif" />

 

[eveshands]

This is a topic that goes around a lot. I will be starting OSU-COM this fall. I applie to both MD and DO schools too. Why? I am from NC and they don't have a DO school, so I applied to an allo school, but I did not want it bad enough to jump through the "flaming hoop" so I let it go. My husband and I would like to move to the Seattle area to live near his relatives, same story. My state has both, I applied to both because that is what you do.

NOW. Whether I grow up to be a DO or a MD I will incorporate holistic ideas and practices into my medical practice. I am a masseuse. Touching people helps them heal.

An allo friend told me to become an allo and use holistic practice. Why? Because people would respect me more. I have been taught that it is not my business what others think of me. It is my business what I think of them.

I love the human body and wnat to help others learn the beauty inherent in their own. I have been a teacher for 9 years and hate to watch people I love and care about treated and not educated AND treated.

My ten cents worth.

 

[drusso]

Eveshands,

I hope you decide to go osteo...you'd make a great D.O.

 

[acurarte]

Don't you all get sick over arguing about the same thing???????? If I held my breath while reading this thread I would die of asphyxiation. BLA bla bla bla OMM bla bla bla research bla bla bla Phew

 

[Jersey Girl]

Here is a topic Dr. Nick started in the allopathic forum on osteopathy not to long ago. You guys might want to take a look. It was an inflammatory new topic and illustrates his negative view of Osteopathy. He really doesn't have an interest in learning about the philosophy, if he did, he would just go about private reading instead of debating on SDN, and saying very negative things about the philosophy. Dr. Nick, go read "The DO's" by Norman Gevitz if you want to learn more.
Look at the link.

<a href="http://forums.studentdoctor.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002624" target="_blank">http://forums.studentdoctor.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=002624</a>

Why should we bother trying to sway and persuade someone, who has already made up their mind?

 

[Cranialpressure]

Dr. Nick:

Listen, why don't you do your future patients a favor and put as much effort into studying as you do into spliting hairs over the well established, and often times imitated, osteopathic approach to health care. Osteopathic medicine, regardless of the convoluted logic that you so generously dish at us, does offer something different and extra. The word "extra" implies something in addition to. I have the most respect for any health care professional (DO,MD,NP,PA,RN,DDS) but I do not and will never respect immaturity and poor manners. Grow up!

 

[Dr. Nick]

Why don't you just re-post my post, it wasn't long. Sure I referred to craniosacral as iffy stuff. Is that so shocking?

Geez, relax guys. I'm simply asking how my colleagues view this stuff.

Pick a treatment used by allopaths that you view as 'iffy' and post a dozen threads on it. I promise that I won't be offended. For me, science is all about debate and finding the truth - NOT pandering to the 'political' agendas of varying professional organizations, etc.

What are you so afraid of?

 

[Bikini Princess]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Mr. happy clown guy:
[QB]People don't tend to quote the literal translation of "Orthopedic" as "straight child"...but it is.
QB]••••Umm.. I'm not sure if this translation is quite accurate, is it? ortho- does mean erect, vertical, straight..but maybe -pedia refers to leg/foot..hence the original field of orthopedics.
Just guessing here.

the origin of osteopathic (disease from the bone) is based on OM philosophy that the musculoskeletal system plays an central & essential role in health & disease.

hope this helps!

 

[Whisker Barrel Cortex]

Actually the name orthopedics comes from the origin of the field. It started with practitioners that dealt with spine curvature problems in children. Thus ortho = "straight" and pedics = "kids." Just a little tidbit I got from one of my attendings.

 

[osteodoc13]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by Dr. Nick:
•Why don't you just re-post my post, it wasn't long. Sure I referred to craniosacral as iffy stuff. Is that so shocking?

Geez, relax guys. I'm simply asking how my colleagues view this stuff.
•••••Dr. Nick seems to have drastically changed his tone. Now he says OCF is "iffy."

Dr. Nick, you still have never replied to my post from weeks ago asking about if your attendings take into account the effects of the musculoskeletal system on the ANS in altering the immune response when they treat patients with sepsis. Go back and re-read my earlier posts about the difference in how an Osteopath would view such a patient.

 

[Dr. Nick]

Osteodoc,

Sorry, I cannot read my attending's mind. Frankly, I don't think it matters.

Dr. Nick