DO = bone doctor? ?

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by mistirvr, Apr 26, 2002.

  1. mistirvr

    mistirvr Member
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    I don't know about all of you, but living in Louisiana (a state practically barren of DO's :rolleyes: ), I've had to deal with a lot of questions about being a DO. Conversations with people generally go like this:
    ME: Yea, I was accepted to medical school! I'm going to be a DO.
    THEM: Oh, what's a DO?
    ME: Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine.
    THEM: Cool, you're going to be a bone doctor!
    ME: (SIGH)

    Other winners that I've heard:
    -So, you are going to be working with herbs and crystals and stuff?
    -Oh, I thought you were going to *medical* school...
    -Are you going to be doing acupuncture?
    -Can you prescribe medication?

    :D <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

    These, of course, prompt me to start rattling off a list of people they know who are real-and-for-true DOCTORS as well as DO's. This always surprises people (as most of us can't distinguish allopaths from osteopaths in the hospital)and results in enlightenment (or acceptance).

    The questions don't bother me(though the repetitiveness can be tiring), I think they're entertaining. And, I kind of enjoy educating people about the two types of doctors that exist out there. Have any of you encountered a similar situation? And, if so, what have you been hearing and how have responded?

    Missy :)
     
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  3. future_DO

    future_DO Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">
    And, I kind of enjoy educating people about the two types of doctors that exist out there.

    [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">There is only one kind of doctor...the good kind :)
     
  4. ussdfiant

    Physician Moderator Emeritus 10+ Year Member

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    When I was accepted to UMDNJ-SOM, I hung my acceptance letter at my desk (just for me). One day one of my coworkers saw at and went through the whole "bone doctor" thing. :mad:
     
  5. MOZ

    MOZ Member
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    i remember when i first told my sister i was going to be a DO. She said, "Wow, that's great! you're going to be a Doctor of Obstetrics." i just started laughing and then i explained to her what a DO really is. i recently asked one of my profs if he gets asked that question at all, and he says it happens all the time. the one thing he stressed to me was that when you're explaining what a DO is don't say that we do the same thing as MD except we have more training.... instead say MD's do the same thing as us, except we have more training... it's all semantics i guess but it is important.
     
  6. jrich15

    jrich15 Member
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    Mistirvr,
    I know the feeling. I am from Louisiana as well and have been accepted to AZCOM. Noone knows what a DO is here. Hopefully with the change in the law, more will come in. Until April of last year, a doctor had to have taken the USMLE to be licensed or to apply to a residency program here. However, if you venture into Houston, the hospitals have several DO's on staff. Just think of it way to educate the people of Louisiana that is a better way of practicing medicine. That is how I look at it.
     
  7. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    I know several classmates doing residencies in Louisiana: Emergency at Charity, IM at Oschner, Peds at LSU, etc. Louisiana is indeed the last state to fully acknowledge DO's---but afterall it is *IS* Louisiana---also the last state to raise its legal drinking age to 21 to qualify for federal highway funds. I get the impression things move very slowly in Big Easy. Just be a good doc, the rest of the answers will come easily.
     
  8. Ice Man

    Ice Man Member
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    Heck check out the DO salary thread. Their is a second year Allo med student who said, "the only thing I know about this Osteopathic thing is that my friends went to some Osteopathic school in Kentucky because they couldn't get into med school." WOW, naivity runs wild even among our peers. (I think he was joking though) I am going to be an MD, but I wish I had gone the DO route. The manipulations are priceless (just ask my mom).
     
  9. Dr. Nick

    Dr. Nick Senior Member
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    I don't think it is fair to complain about the "bone doctor" thing.

    I mean, honestly, Doctor of Osteopathy literally means Doctor of bone disease. If you don't want to be called a bone doctor, don't call yourself a doctor of bone disease for crying out loud!

    And what is this crap about DOs having more training than MDs. NOT. Different training sure, more no.
     
  10. mikeaparker

    mikeaparker Senior Member
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    kurtz your splitting hairs here..

    1.same as far as content for science etc....
    2.thinking osteopathically at the same time is being different..
    3.Learning OMM/OMT is more and different or if you like to call it, in addition to the traditional cirriculum....

    Mike

    D.O.'s have additional training in the musculo-skeletal system, with a more hands on approach, and in my OPINION, tend to use their hands more and therefor have more training in hands on diagnosing..... not to say that an MD can't have the same training, it's just the same emphasis is not there....in the current cirriculum...

    peace
     
  11. drchris33

    drchris33 MSIV
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    I too have to constantly defend/inform/educate people on the osteopathic profession. Where I grew up, all we had were DOs (western Kansas); I had never been to an MD until I was 25. I work at a rural hospital in north-central Kansas as a respiratory therapist, so I know a lot of the people from the community. Hardly anyone knows what a DO is. Alot of people say the following:
    1. Oh, so how many more classes/hours do you need them to become a doctor?
    2. So you will be equal as a chiropractor huh?
    3. I thought you were going to be a doctor?

    Those are just a few! The main problem is that there is just a lack of education. We have all MDs here, so no one really understands the philosophy. So maybe on a rotation, I can come back here and show them what DOs are all about!!

    Later gators!

    Chris :p
     
  12. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member
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    As a soon-to-be-graduate, you guys are doing a good job of educating people ya know!? Really, there was a time when people would hid the fact they were going to a DO program...instead of that, you are educating. Nice job.
    I hope you get good at it, because it likely won't change anytime soon. Set a good example to your patients and they will learn soon enough.

    As for Osteopath...not "bone disease" rather, "disease from the bones". But what's in a name? People don't tend to quote the literal translation of "Orthopedic" as "straight child"...but it is.

    As for "different" training, not really. We have one extra class and that is it. I took both the USMLE and COMLEX exams, so the training CAN'T be too different, right? Right.
     
  13. Dr. Nick

    Dr. Nick Senior Member
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    Honestly, I have nothing against DOs. I would also suggest that over the years as allopathic training has become more "touchy feely" and Primary Care oriented, the differences are becoming less.

    However, I don't agree with the DO mantra that "we have more training". As I said, different, not more. Those hundreds of hours you spend learning chiropractor skills leaves less time to study the other aspects of medicine. Unless DO school is longer. So, is it? Is DO school 5 years? 4 and a half? I don't think so.

    So more training? No. Different training, yes.
     
  14. migraineboy

    migraineboy Member
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    I really don't think that studying OMM takes the place of studying the other aspects of medicine; I think that it is in addition to studying the other aspects of medicine. I would like to see a comparison of # of lecture hours / area (ie cardiology, nephrology) between schools. I know for osteopathic programs it is somewhat standardized (there are minimum hours to be met) among the various programs, and I would assume that this holds true for the allopathic programs. Anyone know??
     
  15. FutureDoc79

    FutureDoc79 Junior Member
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    I am a MS1 at MSUCOM and I just thought that I would throw in my 2 cents about the length of school. I am sure everyone knows that MSU had both a MD and a DO program and that all of our basic sciences are taken together the first year. Well we are about to finish up the semester and then begin the summer schedule. An intesting point is that the MD students are done for the summer around June 29th, while our classes keep going until Aug. 5th. This is true for both the summer after year one and two. Just thought I would share that with everyone
     
  16. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kurtz:
    <strong>

    However, I don't agree with the DO mantra that "we have more training". As I said, different, not more. Those hundreds of hours you spend learning chiropractor skills leaves less time to study the other aspects of medicine. Unless DO school is longer. So, is it? Is DO school 5 years? 4 and a half? I don't think so.
    </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Actually, it's chiropractors learning osteopathic skills as osteopathic medicine precedes chiropracty both historically and intellectually.

    It not an issue to length of training, rather quality of training. Many allopathic medical educator have looked to osteopathic medical schools for cues at reforming allopathic curricula---especially in the area of musculoskeletal medicine. These articles will get you started on the right path.

    Kay Clawson, Douglas W. Jackson, and Daniel J. Ostergaard
    It's Past Time to Reform the Musculoskeletal Curriculum
    Acad Med 2001 76: 709-710.

    FC Wilson
    Development of a musculoskeletal organ system curriculum
     
  17. Slingblade the Surgeon

    Slingblade the Surgeon Senior Member
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    MD's-to-be must take that MORE TRAINING thing as a kick in the "ego sack" hehehe <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

    It is possible for someone to have more training than you...c'mon guys geeez :rolleyes:

    I have heard the chiropractor one!!
    "Oh, you mean like a chiropractor?"
    and...
    "I thought you were going to be a doctor"
    and...
    "Oh yeah an eye doctor? That's a good job"
    and...
    "What's a Do?" (Pronounced doo) hehehe
    This last one was my favorite since it was my pre-med advisor!!!! <img border="0" alt="[Pissy]" title="" src="graemlins/pissy.gif" />
     
  18. Dr. Nick

    Dr. Nick Senior Member
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    "kick in the ego-sack" ? Uh, yeah right. :rolleyes:

    I think the DO inferiority complex often results in a lot of counter-productive hyperbole regarding the DO profession. Comments like, "we're better" "medicine the way it should be!" blah blah blah only serve to hurt the reputation of DOs in my opinion. Osteo vs. Allo are different approaches to medicine - I think it is enough to leave it at that. No need to be so defensive sounding all the time.
     
  19. Slingblade the Surgeon

    Slingblade the Surgeon Senior Member
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    Hehe OK. If you say so. :cool:
     
  20. motogirl

    motogirl Junior Member
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    Here's a good one. When I was at work today, a coworker shot off his mouth about the DO school I will be attending. He said they teach "witch doctor stuff" there. He also cut down manipulation, talking as if it was the DO's only tool in the bag. Instead of blowing up, I went over to him and actually had a conversation about DO's and MD's. He seemed to be surprised when I told him that the education of any US physician, both DO and MD, are pretty much standardized concerning what is taught in the classroom and clinical studies. I learned he seemed to have a chip on his shoulder to the DO because some of his football players were injured and their DO's didn't want them to jump right back into playing as soon as this coach wanted them to. In my own opinion, I think the quality of the physician is determined by the person becoming the physician. Needless to say, I actually didn't mind discussing the subject with him.
     
  21. medicine2006

    medicine2006 Happy Pisces
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    I really applaud all of you out there that REALLY believe in the DO philosophy and whom only wanted to attend osteopathic schools.

    The rest of you only went to DO schools becasue you couldn't get into MD schools and now that you have this inferiority complex must justify your circumstances with exaggeration of how great being a DO vs. MD is. I hate people who aren't honest or consistant. If you wanted to be an MD but settled for DO just admit it. Instead of trying to make yourself feeel good by ranting how much more special training you have just leave it as we are different.
     
  22. Dr. Nick

    Dr. Nick Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by medicine2006:
    <strong>I really applaud all of you out there that REALLY believe in the DO philosophy and whom only wanted to attend osteopathic schools.

    The rest of you only went to DO schools becasue you couldn't get into MD schools and now that you have this inferiority complex must justify your circumstances with exaggeration of how great being a DO vs. MD is. I hate people who aren't honest or consistant. If you wanted to be an MD but settled for DO just admit it. Instead of trying to make yourself feeel good by ranting how much more special training you have just leave it as we are different.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">The truth comes out when it comes to the residency application. Suddenly you have all of these die-hard DOs wanting to go to allopathic residencies.
     
  23. medicine2006

    medicine2006 Happy Pisces
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    I really like the osteo philosophy. I got into both allo and osteo schools and choose allo path beacuse I want to possibly practice abroad and the MD is more universally recognized.
     
  24. Ice Man

    Ice Man Member
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    Kurtz, I don't think they have a choice. Correct me if I'm wrong DO's, but there are not enough DO spots out there, right? They do have more training. The problem is that MD is universal for Doctor, and that won't change anytime soon (the reason I went allopathic). I think that most MD's will think DO's went because they had too. However, more and more people are choosing to go DO. Last year at my Undergrad, more people CHOSE to go to DO schools 3 to Kirksville, 1 to UHS, and one to OSU, over MU, KU, and OU. I was astonished, but you can also see it in the numbers to DO schools. They are closing the gap. .1-.2 gpa and anywhere from 0-9 (average 3) MCAT points. My friend in SW missouri a DO orthopod said that there will never be parody in the numbers because DO schools don't emphasize numbers like the MD schools do. I was skeptical until my brother in law got into his state (MD) school but didn't (I should say hasn't) even received an interview from Des Moines, UHS, or Kirksville. He has a 31 MCAT and a 3.5 GPA, however he doesn't have a whole lot of medical experience, or other EC's.
     
  25. mikeaparker

    mikeaparker Senior Member
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    The truth is that after undergrad. med school, your philosophy is pretty much decided.
    Thinking like the ave. allo or osteo is drilled into your head. Not that you cannont change. What is most important is how you want to practice medicine. If I decide to do an allo res. it may be because the location or the quality of the program, not b/c of the designation of DO/MD

    Mike
     
  26. bones

    bones Osteopathic Physician
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    hey folks,

    :rolleyes: I see where this is going...

    Kurtz, I don't know about the other DO schools, but KCOM has class through the summers and nearly fails out half its students every quarter trying to squeeze all the extra course hours in from OMM while keeping its standards at the MD level and graduate us in 4 years.

    Thats not to say we don't have our share of would-be MD's... it seems like many in our class are complaining to reduce OMM hours- and then I ask, why the heck be DO's? If anything we should be laxing a little on the other courses like biochem or histo to give us a reasonable schedule. Anatomy, OMM, and clinicals should really be the focus of the school- though it is also important to get enough other stuff to be a well-rounded doc and prescribe meds. Sure we graduate a lot of docs to top residencies, but unless they plan on using OMM or at least the 'osteopathic philosophy' in their daily practice, whats the point?

    this is the real question our profession needs to ask itself.

    Dr. Still could have awarded MD's to his students, but he requested the DO degree because he wanted to distinguish his students from the other doctors out there. They were fundamentally different, though still qualified as doctors. If most DO's graduating today are NOT different, then either the degree should be changed for them, or the admissions committees need to get their acts in gear and REALLY filter through all the lies and BS applicants give about osteopathy just to get a foot into the medical profession. Yeah, it may sound harsh, but you know it happens.

    If the DO profession is having an identity crisis- I say we do what california did- switch those over those that want to be MDs so badly (assuming they pass the USMLE and do a residency). it caused a bit of a mess back then, but hey... it could be thought through more carefully the second time. DO's should only be those that wear the degree by choice, and we really should be different, if we are to exist at all...

    Osteopathic medicine COULD theoretically just be a residency option for those that want the training- but in reality it takes years of work and integration with basic science anatomy and physiology to be any good. I'd much rather see one DO school that only admitted the best and brightest 150 students in the nation interested in the REAL substance of osteopathic medicine, and give them the only DO's... As is, I'm becoming ashamed to be a DO by association. It seems like everyone thinks I'm a wannabe just because I'm a DO and I'm getting sick of it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

    <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" /> just my minority opinion.

    bones :D
     
  27. bones

    bones Osteopathic Physician
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    lol, before I invite the wave of flames I'd like to add that I don't really know the numbers of would-be MD's in the DO profession, though I do get the sense that there are a few out there that are pretty vocal and defensive. Like one of the previous posts said, the numbers for incoming students at osteopathic schools are becoming pretty competitive... but we are still left wondering whether they choose a DO school and degree because they like the school/location, or whether they want to be osteopaths. Didn't want to alienate those that chose a DO school over MD schools even without interest in OMM (I know there are many of those out there too). Obviously, for these people the degree is less significant than the type of education, but maybe the KCOM board should activate their charter and offer you guys MD's at graduation if ya want'em. :cool:

    bones
     
  28. johndean11229

    johndean11229 Member
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    i just wanted to put my two cents in. when i graduated college in 2000, i had friends who both applied to MD and DO schools. I def noticed that those who got into MD school had mcats over 30 and very high gpa's. but then there were those who applied to both and only got into MD school! from doing research, i really noticed that those who did not get into DO school had hardly any EC's or had any other attributes besides being smart. So my first guess is here is that DO schools are picking more well rounded individuals. when i was trying to decide where to apply, i as an artist fell in love with the DO philosophy and truly wanted to study the varaibles of the osteopathic principles. i then applied to DO school and got in. however, honestly, i do know i want to do residency in child psychiatry, a residency where i will probably not use my OMM skills. however, i do not believe i should be called a sellout by my fellow peers and here's why. two points. one, whatever residency one choose, i believe we still need the proper primary skills for the basics of dealing with our patients. i believe DO school will help us get there. two, my best friend goes to SUNY Brooklyn, a top 25 medical school and he says he is frustrated that all they do is memorize the materials, pass the tests and move on. to me and he agrees, this is not how one learns to become a doctor. i would rather fail all my tests in the first two years because i did not fully memorize everything but however knew how to treat patients than to have regurgiated material and learn nothning about the art form of becoming a doctor. just my opinion. another key point is from my view point in nyc, my peers, those in the age range of 20-30 are not going to see pcp's anymore. more and more people are moving to holistic medicine and herbal treatments. this really scares me universally. but as i meet those who are doing this, i ask them why , and they say "because we are seek of the doctor not asking about our lives, about not wanting to know who "we" are, and really just trying to get us out of there as fast as one can by writing a prescription." that is crazy! and i tell them about osteopathic medicine and most seem to be very enthusiastic that our training promotes the value of the patient and that again for me solidifies why i think i am choosing the right degree. another point, hehe, is that (and yes it is more about the topic starter) yes i want to become a child psychiatrist and live in california. i really was scared to hear that as a DO, i might have a disadvantage which could be true. well being the serious individual that i am, i wrote to all of the residency directors for this program in Cali and recieved amazing responses. The director at UC Davis was delighted to hear my thrill for wanting to be in her program and told me that actually the chairman there was a DO from Kirksville. she told me to def stay in touch and contact her when clinicals start. so i think that helps show that yes we might have some disadvantages but that we are truly not alone out there. the same was said from the director at UCLA. she told me that if does not matter if you are a DO or MD, just as long as you did well and have good letters of rec. She said residency grades matter more as a doctor than what initials you have after your name...and thats from UCLA, a great school....so in final, to all my fellow DO students, i dont think we should worry because as we get older, i believe the gap will become smaller and a lot of the indifferences will go away. and for the md students, yes i believe you guys are where you are cause you had great grades and are super smart but realize that not all of you will get accepted to DO school. i m not going to be mean but yes i only had a 3.4 gpa and got a 25 on my mcats, but i am a professional actor and model, i wrote my first book at 22, and and i have an patent for an invention. i am not going to let someone mock my medical degree cause i have different initials. when we all graduate, everything else goes out the window and we are equals. we are brothers and sisters in medicine and we cannot waste time arguing over letters when people are sick. with that i wish everyone the best of luck no matter where you are going and god bless.....
     
  29. jrich15

    jrich15 Member
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    ...lax on biochem and histo....I for one am glad you are the minority opinion.
     
  30. Careofme

    Careofme Senior Member
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    JohnDean,

    <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" /> Very nicely said. I'm anticipating my first year as an Osteopathic Medical School Student and share a lot of your concerns and feelings. I hope that for us both you are correct.

    Thanks!

    Careofme
     
  31. bones

    bones Osteopathic Physician
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    jrich <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />
    I think that bit about biochem and histo might just pertain to KCOM- we cover a lot more details in them than folks at some of the MD schools I know. ...as already over-burdoned DO's we certainly don't need to know MORE than MD schools in these areas. I would have been quite content with an average biochem score on the boards and some sanity rather than a top one and no sleep for two quarters <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" />
    other DO schools may already have truncated versions, so don't compare that way...

    Johndean,

    well spoken,
    unfortunately, if you were responding to my post- you missed my point.
    I for one would certainly not call you a sellout- obviously you are interested in the philosophy of osteopathic medicine, and whether or not you use OMM, I'm sure you'll be happy with the degree and will apply its principles effectively.

    My message was clearly geared towards those that apply DO simply as a safety school (i.e. no interest in OMM or osteopathic philosophy whatsoever), rather than those that apply DO by design.
    Such people may make wonderful docs, but there is no reason to call them DO's if they are really MD's at heart. I actually know a few classmates that have said they wished KCOM would start giving MD's (which it legally can), so I'm not making this up... and I actually don't see the harm in it- since the DO degree would then be left to those that choose it.

    My college medical school counsellor directed all of those interested in medical school with low grades towards osteopathic schools, and when I told her I was applying DO (with pretty normal MD grades and mcats) she looked pretty puzzled. Likewise, I got similar responses from faculty and several MD's I know. Those that didn't know my grades assumed I wasn't doing well, and I found myself defending my choice fairly regularly.

    Even if my grades or MCATS were lower (which actually shouldn't matter so much), I would hate thinking everyone assumed I was applying to DO school only because of them.

    We can educate the heck out of people, but so long as DO's are safety schools for lots of MDs, the DO seems to be perceived as something of a second-class medical degree by the academic community, rather than representing a truly different field of medicine. This is what frustrates me.

    To be fair, most of the DO's in family practice I know are very happy with what they do (unlike MD's in primary care I've talked to). This is a subjective sense, and probably varies a lot, but in my experience it has been pretty consistent.
    It may be in the training- I know many a patient that will seek out DO family docs over MD's, and I get the impression that less resentment, better complaince, and fewer lawsuits are our reward for this patient- oriented approach to patient care. <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" />

    there is value in this approach, and it is quite good for family docs, but come on folks... if you hate OMM, PLEASE either don't go DO or at least keep your mouth shut! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> Some of us come here because we actually like this stuff.

    <img border="0" alt="[Laughy]" title="" src="graemlins/laughy.gif" />

    one bone doctor, signing off...

    bones
     
  32. Slingblade the Surgeon

    Slingblade the Surgeon Senior Member
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    I got into both MD and DO, but I chose DO after researching the profession. If people want to be a DO just because they can't get into a particular MD school they could easily go to a caribbean school to get their coveted letters instead. I prefer to train with others who believe in the osteopathic philosophy of treating patients.
     
  33. migraineboy

    migraineboy Member
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    Guys, please realize that if you were to exclude those applicants who had applied / were applying to allopathic programs in addition to applying to osteopathic programs that the final enrollment for the majority of osteopathic programs would be so low many programs would close down. Honestly, I cannot tell you of one person in my class that I am aware of that did not apply to allopathic programs as well as to my school (not to say they do not exist). The fact of the matter is that there are too many applicants for the number of admission spots (allopathic + osteopathic) currently. Many people, myself included, want to be physicians, be it MD or DO, and are happy to take a spot when it is offered. Many people, myself included, used osteopathic programs as a "Plan B", not because the osteopathic philosophy of medicine is inferior, but rather because the MD title is much better recognized and some bias, although unfounded in my opinion, does exist against DO's. And when I graduate next month, I'll be just as proud to write DO after my name as I would have been to write MD.
     
  34. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member
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    Kurtz,
    It is true that while studying for OMT/OMM during years 1 and 2, I did have to change my schedule for studying other classes. For many years osteopathic schools would have 2 1/2 years academic training and 1 1/2 years clinical... This no longer happens, but as a graduate, I KNOW that having OMT skills have given me the advantage in primary care settings like FP (for example). I know this because I see it.
    I also know that what we learn can't be terribly different because I passed both USMLE 1 and 2 as well as COMLEX 1 and 2...and if I remember correctly, the USMLE is geared to allopathic students.
    And yes I ONLY applied to Osteopathic Schools...big deal.
    Why do many talented DO's choose ACGME residencies you ask? Well, primarily because of quantity of pathology and location of residencies. Prestige has a great deal of influence as well...but it is the prestige of the RESIDENCY and not the medical school that brings in M4 applications! People generally say "I am going to Wash U/Barnes Jewish Hospital because the the EM program is great there" NOT "I am going to Wash U. for EM because the medical school is great"...
    For most residency programs, the medical school is a NON-issue.
     
  35. Dr. Nick

    Dr. Nick Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mr. happy clown guy:
    <strong>Prestige has a great deal of influence as well...but it is the prestige of the RESIDENCY and not the medical school that brings in M4 applications! People generally say "I am going to Wash U/Barnes Jewish Hospital because the the EM program is great there" NOT "I am going to Wash U. for EM because the medical school is great"...
    For most residency programs, the medical school is a NON-issue.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Hmmm, not sure I buy that. medical schools are not isolated entities from their associated hospitals. Medical schools gain their prestige from their faculty - who also staff the hospitals... My point is that they are pretty much one and the same to a large extent.
     
  36. Dr. Nick

    Dr. Nick Senior Member
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    So as not to completely piss off all of you DOs-to-be on your home turf I'd just like to repeat that I have nothing against DOs or the people that choose or are forced into that route by circumstance. Medical school is a competitive thing. Many people go where they can, not where they want. There's nothing wrong with that.

    I just don't buy into a lot of the DO propaganda. Unless, a DO is practicing boutique medicine, he or she will be under the same time/insurance pressures that an MD would face. I imagine the end result is fairly rushed, yet professional service, with both DOs and MDs. I just don't buy the DO mantra that you will have all of this extra time to fawn over your patients. It seems like the DO mantra is largely a philosophical thing that likely goes out the window pretty darn fast in the practical world of day-to-day medicine.
     
  37. Ice Man

    Ice Man Member
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    Kurtz, you are right about that. In the office, it is all the same. 7 minutes a patient on average, and rarely is OMT used, unless they are specialized in it. The two professions are on a collision coarse. OMT will either be validated or recognized as placebo, then the MD and DO schools will act accordingly. Did you know that MD's can bill for OMT (although called something else) the insurance codes will be implimented in the near future.
     
  38. Slingblade the Surgeon

    Slingblade the Surgeon Senior Member
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    Hmmmm, interesting.
     
  39. jrich15

    jrich15 Member
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    Personally,
    I think the osteopathic profession needs high level positive mainstream exposure, such as on TV shows like ER. This way the public can become educated without even realizing it. When I worked in the ER, most doctors didn't even where any identification and would introduce themselves as Dr...... I don't feel the letters are that important once in private practice. If DO's change their letters, this may cause more confusion.Just my 2 cents.
     
  40. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member
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    Kurtz,

    Ok let me help you out on this...primarily because it is my guess you are not applying to residency at this point in your career. I am guessing you are premed or an MD underclassman?

    Anyway, many residency programs have "free standing" residencies without having university affiliation...and for many residencies these are the best programs! Take FP for example. The large proportion of residencies are at community hospitals...which is usually ideal for FP. My roommate turned down Duke and Northwestern for FP in a community setting with LESS specialty residents.
    Maricopa Medical Center in Phoenix AZ, has one of the absolute BEST EM residencies in the country...it is NOT affiliated with a university. I would definitely NOT want to do EM at MAYO; this is not a slam on the Mayo Clinic, but rather a statement on the quality of the EM residency and how it would fulfill my needs! Hennepin County Hospital is another example of a GREAT EM program, and yet I have NO IDEA if it is affiliated with a medical school or not?!

    What it comes down to is residencies are chosen based upon the MEDICAL CENTER/HOSPITAL quality and NOT the medical school. The Medical School, unless you wish to do a ton of research (and even that reason is suspect), is generally a NON-Issue in residency decision making. It just so happens many GREAT medical centers are affiliated with a Great Medical School. Do you see what I am saying?
     
  41. Dr. Nick

    Dr. Nick Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Mr. happy clown guy:
    <strong>Kurtz,

    Ok let me help you out on this...primarily because it is my guess you are not applying to residency at this point in your career. I am guessing you are premed or an MD underclassman?

    Anyway, many residency programs have "free standing" residencies without having university affiliation...and for many residencies these are the best programs! Take FP for example. The large proportion of residencies are at community hospitals...which is usually ideal for FP. My roommate turned down Duke and Northwestern for FP in a community setting with LESS specialty residents.
    Maricopa Medical Center in Phoenix AZ, has one of the absolute BEST EM residencies in the country...it is NOT affiliated with a university. I would definitely NOT want to do EM at MAYO; this is not a slam on the Mayo Clinic, but rather a statement on the quality of the EM residency and how it would fulfill my needs! Hennepin County Hospital is another example of a GREAT EM program, and yet I have NO IDEA if it is affiliated with a medical school or not?!

    What it comes down to is residencies are chosen based upon the MEDICAL CENTER/HOSPITAL quality and NOT the medical school. The Medical School, unless you wish to do a ton of research (and even that reason is suspect), is generally a NON-Issue in residency decision making. It just so happens many GREAT medical centers are affiliated with a Great Medical School. Do you see what I am saying?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Happy-clown-guy, allow me to help you out on this as I don't think you make a very good argument here. I'll tell you why.

    1. Yes, OK I agree many fine residencies have no medical school affiliation (not exactly a news flash) - but we were discussing residencies affiliated with medical schools, right?!? So, not really that relevant.

    2. In regards to residencies with no medical school affiliation that are "the best" (whatever that is) within their field you mention FP & EM - that both may have very good reasons for being far removed from academic centers - but I would argue these fields are more the exception than the rule.

    3. I think it is fair to say that the overwhelming majority of top residencies are at academic centers (I think this is obvious). And guess what - most of those academic centers have medical schools affiliated. Furthermore, at these academic centers the faculty that staff the hospital and medical school are largely inseperable (given the fact that half of medical school education occurs IN the hospital.

    So tell me this:

    Where do you think the top Medicine and Surgical residencies are?

    Yes, that's right they are at academic centers that have (drumroll) medical schools!! Not even sure why we are arguing this - but you get the picture, right?

    Hey are you pre-med or undergraduate DO by any chance? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
     
  42. Dr. Nick

    Dr. Nick Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by jrich15:
    <strong>Personally,
    I think the osteopathic profession needs high level positive mainstream exposure</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I couldn't agree more! I never even heard of DOs until about 4 years ago when I was a first year medical student. And I come from a family of doctors!

    Perhaps MD schools could incorporate a brief rotation with a DO practice as well. Might help to build understanding between the professions if there is to be co-existance.
     
  43. Slingblade the Surgeon

    Slingblade the Surgeon Senior Member
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    I want as many letters as I can get by my name cause I think it looks cool on a business card. Plus I want to know everything :D If only money weren't a factor-I'd just stay in school forever. <img border="0" alt="[Lovey]" title="" src="graemlins/lovey.gif" /> hehehe
     
  44. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member
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    No Kurtz...I just finished my DO program...yeah, I start residency in JUNE, so I have gone through the residency selection process already!

    Listen, I understand what you are saying...but listen. The residencies are of high quality BECAUSE of the medical center, not because of the medical school. Many times, they are both together. But it is NOT THE RULE. Yeah doing psych at Wash U or Mayo would be great, and the medical school offers funding and research space.
    There are MANY MEDICAL CENTERS THAT ARE AFFILIATED WITH MORE THAN ONE SCHOOL AND MANY FELLOWSHIPS THAT ARE AT PRIVATE HOSPITALS. But overall, a person needs to go to a residency that suits their needs...with high volume of pathology and good clinical instruction, while at the same time, providing high resident satisfaction! You could have Joe Blow MD, DO, PhD, DDS lecturing on the various prenatal mandibular pathologies in Finnish achondroplastic dwarfs...but if you don't see that sh!t ever and you are about as UNHAPPY as you could be...you aren't gonna learn anything. That is how you decide the BEST residency, regardless of location...you tend to forget that residency is a JOB, and you need to enjoy your job.

    I really don't know why I even debate this issue with you. Each specialty has its own needs...from transitional year, EM, FP, Surg, OBGYN, IM, to Neurosurgery...and the "best" training can be found at various sites. NOT just sites next door to classrooms full of M1's M2's and PhD's learning biochem!!
    Depending on your chosen field, you will see.
     
  45. PainMan

    PainMan Senior Member
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    I agreee with clown guy on this one. I am planning on EM. I dont want to go to a mayo or duke for my residency simply because I want to run all the codes, intubations, chest tubes, ect. at a majority of the academic centers the surgical residents and anesthesia residents get to step in front of the EM resident on tramuas. So this is an advantage to those specialties at the academic centers, and it is an advantage for EM doc to go to level I or II community trauma center where there are not as many other specialties needing "trauma time". So it is a matter of choice.
     
  46. Vash311

    Vash311 Senior Member
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    Sorry if this is an irrelevant blemish in this thread...but the one advantage I see in being a D.O. is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that we can apply to, and could possibly get in to, allopathic or osteopathic residencies. But can a M.D. student apply to osteopathic and allopathic?
     
  47. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member
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    Nope, only ACGME residencies. To be in an AOA residency, you need to have taken the COMLEX and be an osteopathic graduate.
     
  48. johndean11229

    johndean11229 Member
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    hey vosh, i put this in my reply but i will say it again....cause as a future DO, i dod worry about the allopathic residencies but as i said, i wrote emails to all the resident directors for the psych program and they all they have had many DO's come through their programs and that there is no indifference to the DO's who apply. hope that clarifies your viewpoint
     
  49. annushka

    annushka Senior Member
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    i'm about to start at a DO school, and let me tell you--it's definitely tough. i used to go into lengthy explanations, but it's just not fair--people going to allopathic schools just have to say, "i'm going to med school" and everyone knows what they're going to do, while i say, "i'm going to osteopathic school" and people get puzzled looks on their faces, then cautiously ask, "what is that, sweetie?" and i have to go into an hour-long schpiel about what osteopathy is.
    so recently, just to save my vocal chords, i'm telling people i'm going to med school. because i will be practicing medicine and learning about medicine, after all, right? i feel sorta bad about this, but i see no other way other than making little handouts about history of osteopathy and distributing them to everyone who asks :)
     
  50. Sweaty Paul

    Sweaty Paul Senior Member
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    annushka,

    Yes, You will be attending medical school. You will be learning about medicine. You will also learn some OTM along the way. You will be able to write scripts, perform surg., admit people to hospitals just like our allopathic bretheren. You are a med student, with all of the rights, privledges, and responsibilities that it entails.

    Good Luck, and enjoy your last summer of true freedom!! :)

    Sweaty Paul

    P.S. Where are you going to be attending?
     
  51. Dr. Nick

    Dr. Nick Senior Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Vash311:
    <strong>Sorry if this is an irrelevant blemish in this thread...but the one advantage I see in being a D.O. is (and tell me if I'm wrong) that we can apply to, and could possibly get in to, allopathic or osteopathic residencies. But can a M.D. student apply to osteopathic and allopathic?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Not to sound condescending but I have honestly never met an MD looking to do a DO residency. I don't think it is an issue as there are already so many allo residencies.
     

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