Do cardiologists ever attend the OR?

[DarkProtonics]

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Do cardiologists ever attend the OR in order to observe? Or cardiac surgeons attending the cardiology clinic in order to observe? The reason I'm asking this is b/c I hope both specialties are exposed to one another, b/c they so often work together.

 

[lemonade02]

are you high?? wtf are you talking about?! cardiac surgeons attending the cardiology clinic to observe? hahahaha

 

[radslooking]

although you're question makes sense based on its premise. No, they never do these things...unless they have to. They are too busy and it would be too awkward and weird to do these things for most people.

 

[dragonfly99]

No, they are too busy working.
However, in the academic setting there have been some hybrid operating room/cath labs created. I.e. patient can get a stent put in, and then a bypass, etc. This keeps patient from having to have procedures at 2 different times. So in those cases both surgery and cath lab cardiologist might be in there at the same time...but usually not the WHOLE time each is working.

They do sometimes have joint conferences to discuss difficult/complex patients, at least in academia. For example, cardiologist might ask, "Are you willing to do a valve replacement in this difficult patient". Surgery folks might argue back/discuss, wanting details of how bad is his lung disease, how bad the heart function now, etc. This helps them decide if it's too dangerous to operate, will it likely benefit the patient, etc.

 

[DarkProtonics]

No, they are too busy working.
However, in the academic setting there have been some hybrid operating room/cath labs created. I.e. patient can get a stent put in, and then a bypass, etc. This keeps patient from having to have procedures at 2 different times. So in those cases both surgery and cath lab cardiologist might be in there at the same time...but usually not the WHOLE time each is working.

They do sometimes have joint conferences to discuss difficult/complex patients, at least in academia. For example, cardiologist might ask, "Are you willing to do a valve replacement in this difficult patient". Surgery folks might argue back/discuss, wanting details of how bad is his lung disease, how bad the heart function now, etc. This helps them decide if it's too dangerous to operate, will it likely benefit the patient, etc.

Since joint conferences b/w specialists are so much better for the pt, why don't they happen more often?

 

[radslooking]

edit....Im an idiot.

 

[dadr]

Since joint conferences b/w specialists are so much better for the pt, why don't they happen more often?

They happen on a weekly basis at academic centers with HF/transplant programs, as this is an integral part of the pre- and post-op decisionmaking process.

In addition, some cardiology fellowships offer either required or elective time on the CV surgery service.

 

[astropilot]

Do cardiologists ever attend the OR in order to observe? Or cardiac surgeons attending the cardiology clinic in order to observe? The reason I'm asking this is b/c I hope both specialties are exposed to one another, b/c they so often work together.

EP docs sometimes put PM and ICDs in the OR.

 

[dragonfly99]

They do? They have special rooms in the cath lab where they do this at my academic medical center.

 

[ESU_MD]

I drop by the cath lab sometimes to watch procedures, and have done some cath stuff myself. the interventional guys love having an "outsider" around to show off their skills, as much as I like having visitors to the OR.

unfortunately, I rarely see a cardiologist in the OR to watch a CABG.

usually they do drop by to do TEE or if it was an interesting case. cabg is pretty boring unless you are the surgeon i guess.

i doubt a CV surgeon would go to cardiology clinic since even the cardiologists try to avoid clinic!

 

[DarkProtonics]

I drop by the cath lab sometimes to watch procedures, and have done some cath stuff myself. the interventional guys love having an "outsider" around to show off their skills, as much as I like having visitors to the OR.

unfortunately, I rarely see a cardiologist in the OR to watch a CABG.

usually they do drop by to do TEE or if it was an interesting case. cabg is pretty boring unless you are the surgeon i guess.

i doubt a CV surgeon would go to cardiology clinic since even the cardiologists try to avoid clinic!

If I become a cardiologist, I'd make a point to do a C/Th elective in my fellowship, and observe in the OR if one of my pts needs C/Th surgery.

 

[howelljolly]

You won't have time.

 

[DarkProtonics]

You won't have time.

Oh, right.

 

[doctor712]

are you high?? wtf are you talking about?! cardiac surgeons attending the cardiology clinic to observe? hahahaha

The other day, I was being shown around the hospital for my upcoming position in a Cardiovascular Division by my two new MD bosses. They were great and pulled out all the stops, lunch in the Physician Lounge, cases to watch, the whole 9 yards.

During two percutaneous valve repair cases done by IV Cardiologists, a really friendly Doctor approached me to ask what I was doing there, etc. I explained. I saw his badge and it said, "Dr. X, Cardiovascular Surgery". I asked him what he was doing there, for 8 hours, in the cath monitor room, outside the action? His reply, "Observing." It's academic medicine, half the people in the cath lab were observing! And, "IN CASE I was needed." You see, in academic medicine, where procedures are being used in clinical trials, new therapies are being tested, brains overlap. That's part of the beauty of academic medicine. High risk cases are being worked up.

Point of this post is that it sort of irks me when people ask genuine questions and are replied to as if they are fools. (see quote above).

So, to answer the OPs original question, it happens. Keep asking questions. It's what scientists do.

D712

 

[howelljolly]

Theres a huge difference between observing out of curiosity when you should be doing something else, vs. observing for bona fide Continuing Medical Education in an academic center.

Percutaneous valvuloplasty?... *sniffle* 🙁 I wish I was doing that.

 

[radslooking]

Theres a huge difference between observing out of curiosity when you should be doing something else, vs. observing for bona fide Continuing Medical Education in an academic center.

Percutaneous valvuloplasty?... *sniffle* 🙁 I wish I was doing that.

the point is that they do have conferences to discuss cases occasionally. they had them at my VA between the CV surgeon and the cards guys to discuss cases. whether they actually go in to observe each other or not very often i'd assume is doctor/institution specific. I'm not aware of many "requirements" institutions make to watch each other, so i think it depends on the individual doctor's interest.

 

[howelljolly]

the point is that they do have conferences to discuss cases occasionally. they had them at my VA between the CV surgeon and the cards guys to discuss cases. whether they actually go in to observe each other or not very often i'd assume is doctor/institution specific. I'm not aware of many "requirements" institutions make to watch each other, so i think it depends on the individual doctor's interest.

Im not sure how it works either, but I do know that for surgery, observation, and working along with your more experienced colleagues is a requirement, in order to learn new techniques. I assume that for interventional cardio, it is similar.

 

[doctor712]

Theres a huge difference between observing out of curiosity when you should be doing something else, vs. observing for bona fide Continuing Medical Education in an academic center.

Percutaneous valvuloplasty?... *sniffle* 🙁 I wish I was doing that.

Well, HowellJolly you're closer to it than me! 👍

And you are right, there is a difference, but for the record, this CV Surgeon wasn't in this for the CME credits and this wasn't a CME conference. He was in the cath lab in case he was needed. And he was watching, waiting, all day long, watching and watching.

 

[howelljolly]

Well, HowellJolly you're closer to it than me! 👍

And you are right, there is a difference, but for the record, this CV Surgeon wasn't in this for the CME credits and this wasn't a CME conference. He was in the cath lab in case he was needed. And he was watching, waiting, all day long, watching and watching.

Oh... I think thats might be a requirement for the institution. In some places, interventional procedures can only be done if theres a surgoen in house to deal with an accidental physician-induced perforation.... caths, bronchs, colonoscopies....

 

[Adcadet]

At one major transplant center I know the Cardiology Transplant fellows are required to watch at least a few transplants. As a resident I set up a rotation on a CV surgery service - I mostly did floor management but observed a few cases including a transplant.

 

[ESU_MD]

not sure if you are taking a shot at that CV surgeon?

most of these novel cases are setup as multidisciplinary, or the guy wants to get in on the action if these devices ever become primetime. some surgeons are actually interested in percutaneous stuff.

it is very common to see CV surgeons doing combined endovascular cases in cath labs.

In real life, surgeons and cardiologists actually work reasonably well together.

 

[doctor712]

not sure if you are taking a shot at that CV surgeon?

most of these novel cases are setup as multidisciplinary, or the guy wants to get in on the action if these devices ever become primetime. some surgeons are actually interested in percutaneous stuff.

it is very common to see CV surgeons doing combined endovascular cases in cath labs.

In real life, surgeons and cardiologists actually work reasonably well together.

hi ESU. I'm not taking a shot at the very kind CT Surgeon. I replied to this thread to defend the OP who was replied to kinda rudely. I was trying to defend the fact that other surgeons do observe. I think you read my post in the wrong light. I remain friendly with the CT doc and hope to keep working alongside him and all the cardiologists in the Cath Lab. So, we're on the same page.

D712

 

[jeffreyfrog]

No, they are too busy working. PFO Closure

 

[cardsfellow2007]

Do cardiologists ever attend the OR in order to observe? Or cardiac surgeons attending the cardiology clinic in order to observe? The reason I'm asking this is b/c I hope both specialties are exposed to one another, b/c they so often work together.

You are required to have exposure to CT Surg patients by ACGME guidelines. Cardiologists are frequently in and out of the OR to do pre/post surgery TEE's. As a general fellow I made a point to watch at least one AVR and one MVR in the OR to better understand the anatomy. fe have a one month CT Surg month which is great to take care of postop CABG patients.