DO competitiveness among MD Society?

[keunglh]

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Hey guys!

*** So first off, mods and admins please move this to the appropriate section. I wasn't exactly sure as to where it should go because this is beyond hSDN but not really into any premedical subforums. ***

So I've recently been accepted into a joint medical program with a DO school. However, I've also been accepted into a few prestigious California (UC) state schools. So I was wondering on your own opinions on going through the DO route as opposed to the MD route? I completely understand that the perspectives and the way treatment happens is different, but in the end when both DO's and MD's are looking for residencies how competitive is a DO among a majority of MD's.

So I guess it's like, would you rather go through a joint medical program and become a DO? Or instead go through the traditional route, with the added stress and necessity of applying and interviewing and eventually be given the choice to choose MD/DO?
-Also how competitive are DO residencies among MD's?
This subforum might be a bit bias but please try and remain impartial.

 

[user3]

gulp. this will not end well...

 

[kingbob128]

Go to the UC

Sent from my Note 3 using Tapatalk

 

[Member10billion]

Google is your friend

 

[SpartanWolverine]

Hey guys!

*** So first off, mods and admins please move this to the appropriate section. I wasn't exactly sure as to where it should go because this is beyond hSDN but not really into any premedical subforums. ***

So I've recently been accepted into a joint medical program with a DO school. However, I've also been accepted into a few prestigious California (UC) state schools. So I was wondering on your own opinions on going through the DO route as opposed to the MD route? I completely understand that the perspectives and the way treatment happens is different, but in the end when both DO's and MD's are looking for residencies how competitive is a DO among a majority of MD's.

So I guess it's like, would you rather go through a joint medical program and become a DO? Or instead go through the traditional route, with the added stress and necessity of applying and interviewing and eventually be given the choice to choose MD/DO?
-Also how competitive are DO residencies among MD's?
This subforum might be a bit bias but please try and remain impartial.

Go to the undergrad institution you see yourself doing best at. I do not think the linkage is worth it if the school is not where you want to be.

 

[DrEnderW]

Are you 100% truly set on becoming a physician?

If so, are you interested in primary care? Do you want a career in academics with a research component?

You're likely too young to have solid answers for these questions, but try to consider them. DOs can pursue any specialty in medicine, however there are smaller numbers of specialty positions (think neurosurgery, radiology, derm, CT surg, ENT) options for residency. Furthermore, there are many academic programs that do not historically take DOs and specialty positions are often in smaller cities. That can be a pro or con depending on your interests. There are disproportionately less DOs conducting research, but you can pursue research if you'd like.

Importantly, the impending residency merger will effect all of this by the time you're there. Do you know the difference between AOA and ACGME residencies? There's a lot to consider beyond the scope of short replies from premeds. PM me if you want more details, as a lot has been discussed on here repeatedly.

If it were me, I'd wait and apply MD route to maximize options.

 

[LABBL]

hey OP, how does the joint program work? do u need a certain MCAT? or not take MCAT? what gpa do you need to maintain?

 

[CSqueed]

Go to the UC undergrad.

You will be able to create more doors for yourself.

 

[Mad Jack]

UC. DO is fine, but MD opens a lot more doors. You'd be foolish to not keep your options open, all things being equal.

 

[hybridomas89]

This is a tough choice. Pre-med at the UCs are super competitive and being a CA resident only makes things harder unless you have very high stats. If you are super ambitious and you are willing to work super hard then I suggest you go to UC. In the end, you should evaluate your dreams and your own abilities.

 

[premed1001]

-

 

[keunglh]

I understand that there are more options by going through the my state college route, but the thing is, is it worth all the stress, time and additional trouble of having to apply to medical school instead of just going with the DO program?

 

[keunglh]

What program?

I have been accepted into the IIT/Midwestern (CCOM) University

 

[keunglh]

hey OP, how does the joint program work? do u need a certain MCAT? or not take MCAT? what gpa do you need to maintain?

Hi there!

Uhm because of the new revamp of MCAT's i'm not sure of the MCAT, but they require just the average score, and a 3.25 GPS to maintain. After that, you'll matriculate on to the DO school.

hope that helps!

 

[keunglh]

Are you 100% truly set on becoming a physician?

If so, are you interested in primary care? Do you want a career in academics with a research component?

You're likely too young to have solid answers for these questions, but try to consider them. DOs can pursue any specialty in medicine, however there are smaller numbers of specialty positions (think neurosurgery, radiology, derm, CT surg, ENT) options for residency. Furthermore, there are many academic programs that do not historically take DOs and specialty positions are often in smaller cities. That can be a pro or con depending on your interests. There are disproportionately less DOs conducting research, but you can pursue research if you'd like.

Importantly, the impending residency merger will effect all of this by the time you're there. Do you know the difference between AOA and ACGME residencies? There's a lot to consider beyond the scope of short replies from premeds. PM me if you want more details, as a lot has been discussed on here repeatedly.

If it were me, I'd wait and apply MD route to maximize options.

There is no doubt that I want to become a physician, however which specialization I am still unknown to but I don't think I want to go into primary/family care practice care. I actually want to be a practicing physician so I do not think that academics/research is really my passion, however things can change and I am open to them.

Understanding this, do you think going through the traditional route is worth all the trouble and stress of having to apply to med school as well as always working to be competitive as opposed to a DO program which allows you more flexibility but perhaps the chance of a tougher time for residency matching or prestige (due to the social stigma of DO's)

 

[premed1001]

-

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Do you like being a number in a sea of students? Do you want to deal with volunteering, leadership, shadowing, research, keeping a 3.7+, etc.? Do you want to spend hundreds on applications which end up being thousands with traveling costs? If yes, go to a UC. At worse in your joint program you can transfer out or maybe even apply MD with the CCOM acceptance on hand.

 

[Duff84]

I second going where you maximize your options/potential. Disregarding even the whole DO/MD issue, what if you decide you don't want to do medicine any more during your first or second year? I obviously know nothing about you but not everyone knows exactly what they want before college and it would be unfortunate to find your options are suddenly limited. Just a thought. If you are 100% never going to sway from medicine, than I would definitely go CCOM and bypass the med school admissions gauntlet which seems to just get worse and worse (and much more competitive) every year.

 

[costales]

Prestige is meaningless to adcoms without a good GPA.

If you're planning to do CS/EE at a "prestigious" UC campus, be prepared to watch your GPA dive. You'll be a small fish in a big bowl vying for attention from a TA.

 

[dancer_DO]

I think you should think about your life as a student. The top UCs offer some incredible student opportunities, where you could be involved in a million different health related causes, join greek life, tour guide, watch school sports etc. Also as a regular four year student you could pursue a minor in something (possibly not even not too sciencey such as a language or public health). Does the linkage program mean you will be not experiencing the fun and adventure that undergrad is? However the UCs are incredibly competitive in science and many pre-meds changeout of science quickly once they realize they don't want to compete with braniacs all day. In the end If you wanna be a doctor you will be a doctor either way.

 

[TXKnight]

Tough choice, I understand both point of view. On the one hand a regular UG experience comes with many benefits, including expanding your knowledge (if you care abt that) beyond science and medicine. ie arts, humanities, social science,etc. You will be interacting with a more diverse crowd probably and learning from it. However, you'll also enter the super stiff competition for an MD/DO spot and what that entail (MCAT, high GPA, volunteering, shadowing, financial burden of the application process,etc.
I recommend you gauge what is more important to you personally. Kinda like a pros and cons list and go from there.

 

[Mx300]

If I was I was in ur shoes the I would probably go to UC. I've seen so many people be hell bent on going into medicine only to change their path later. It's really hard to commit urself to something that takes as long to complete as medicine does. Going to a traditional undergrad will give u the ability to easily change if u decide to.

As far as the DO vs MD thing, there is literally a DO in every field of medicine in my city, even plastics. So I think that SDN hypes up the difficulty in becoming those types of physicians as a DO. My opinion is that if u have the ability to get into ENT as an MD then u will be able to as a DO. Maybe u won't get as prestigious residencies but who cares? If prestige matters to u then maybe. But I've seen ppl screw themselves over so bad when it comes to their obsession with prestige.

Try to get as much exposure to medicje as possible before deciding.

 

[moop]

Combined programs are rarely fit for most high schoolers who don't know what they want from college yet.

It's not about MD/DO. It's about what you want and should get out of college. I once also considered BS/MD programs over more prestigious schools. PM me if you want and I can share my perspective in more detailed.

 

[NontradCA]

Don't do the joint program, and don't go to a UC.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Don't do the joint program, and don't go to a UC.

Glad someone else shared my view, I was too shared to say it without any concrete evidence as to why. But I sure as heck would not have taken either of those options.

 

[TreadLightly]

UC. DO is fine, but MD opens a lot more doors. You'd be foolish to not keep your options open, all things being equal.

This is not necessarily good advice. You talk about keeping options open, but do you realize that OP is basically guaranteed the chance to become a doc? What is foolish is letting this opportunity go without thinking long and hard about what OP wants.

Yes, if you go to a UC (and hopefully graduate in time with all those budget cuts) you might have a chance to take classes that you like or whatever. But go ahead and ask some of the people here if they had time to take those classes while doing pre-med crap. It's not fun to apply twice so figure out if this will make your life easier. I think it will.

 

[hybridomas89]

Don't do the joint program, and don't go to a UC.

Agreed. Pre-med at UC is so cut-throat.

 

[keunglh]

This is not necessarily good advice. You talk about keeping options open, but do you realize that OP is basically guaranteed the chance to become a doc? What is foolish is letting this opportunity go without thinking long and hard about what OP wants.

Yes, if you go to a UC (and hopefully graduate in time with all those budget cuts) you might have a chance to take classes that you like or whatever. But go ahead and ask some of the people here if they had time to take those classes while doing pre-med crap. It's not fun to apply twice so figure out if this will make your life easier. I think it will.

This is essentially one of my biggest factors because of the ideal of essentially a guaranteed DO degree, but in this day in age is the DO degree competitive enough? Because at least in my area there is like 1 DO for every 20 MD and I'm just not sure how things would match up (I do realize that I most likely wont be working in the same area but still demographic wise)

 

[keunglh]

Agreed. Pre-med at UC is so cut-throat.

So the thing is, I could go to the affiliated UG and if I find myself competitive enough by the end of my second year, I could always apply out to med schools not just UC med schools. Would that be a better ideal?

 

[keunglh]

Glad someone else shared my view, I was too shared to say it without any concrete evidence as to why. But I sure as heck would not have taken either of those options.

Just wondering, but could I hear your opinions as to why you would not take UC? Is it mainly because of the competitiveness of the undergraduates and the cutthroat attitudes?

 

[thepoopologist]

Go to a UC, study what you want
Take actual premed courses at a CC
Go to a state MD
Save money

 

[keunglh]

If I was I was in ur shoes the I would probably go to UC. I've seen so many people be hell bent on going into medicine only to change their path later. It's really hard to commit urself to something that takes as long to complete as medicine does. Going to a traditional undergrad will give u the ability to easily change if u decide to.

As far as the DO vs MD thing, there is literally a DO in every field of medicine in my city, even plastics. So I think that SDN hypes up the difficulty in becoming those types of physicians as a DO. My opinion is that if u have the ability to get into ENT as an MD then u will be able to as a DO. Maybe u won't get as prestigious residencies but who cares? If prestige matters to u then maybe. But I've seen ppl screw themselves over so bad when it comes to their obsession with prestige.

Try to get as much exposure to medicje as possible before deciding.

I believe that I would have similar experiences and options if I go to that DO joint program, also because of the guaranteed admission wouldn't I have more flexibility and options to study what I want instead if I went to the UC school and had to study relentlessly to try and be competitive?

 

[Mad Jack]

This is not necessarily good advice. You talk about keeping options open, but do you realize that OP is basically guaranteed the chance to become a doc? What is foolish is letting this opportunity go without thinking long and hard about what OP wants.

Yes, if you go to a UC (and hopefully graduate in time with all those budget cuts) you might have a chance to take classes that you like or whatever. But go ahead and ask some of the people here if they had time to take those classes while doing pre-med crap. It's not fun to apply twice so figure out if this will make your life easier. I think it will.

Oh, I misinterpreted the op's post entirely. What was I thinking! I read it as he had been accepted to a DO and UC MD program lol.

Yeah op, go with the joint program. That just makes sense. The UC name won't really help you a whole lot when it comes to gaining admission to MD schools, and your GPA will likely suffer if you attend one, as I have heard their science programs are brutal to say the least.

 

[keunglh]

Go to a UC
Take actual premed courses at a CC
Go to a state MD
Save money

Just wondering what you mean by "actual premed courses at a CC" I understand community college but are you implying that there are no premed courses at a UC?

 

[hybridomas89]

So the thing is, I could go to the affiliated UG and if I find myself competitive enough by the end of my second year, I could always apply out to med schools not just UC med schools. Would that be a better ideal?

I meant that being pre-med at a UC is pretty difficult since there are soooo many of them. You are competing with everyone for the same clinical and research opportunities. I know a lot of people who went to a UC as a pre-med but switched out because it was just too difficult to maintain a good gpa. However, if you are willing to work super hard then you will be fine.

 

[keunglh]

Oh, I misinterpreted the op's post entirely. What was I thinking! I read it as he had been accepted to a DO and UC MD program lol.

Yeah op, go with the joint program. That just makes sense. The UC name won't really help you a whole lot when it comes to gaining admission to MD schools, and your GPA will likely suffer if you attend one, as I have heard their science programs are brutal to say the least.

Ahh I see now, thank you so much for your opinion. Yea I was given the opportunity to do a DO program, or I could go a UC undergrad school and apply for MD myself when the time came. I'm just not sure whether or not I would be losing out on anything if I went the DO route instead?

 

[NontradCA]

Just wondering, but could I hear your opinions as to why you would not take UC? Is it mainly because of the competitiveness of the undergraduates and the cutthroat attitudes?

Yes the competitiveness. That and it's going to be tough to get some research opportunities (quality at least) despite the academic prowess of the place. Going to a UC is not necessarily going to help you get into a UC med school, to also note.

 

[hybridomas89]

Just wondering what you mean by "actual premed courses at a CC" I understand community college but are you implying that there are no premed courses at a UC?

Of course there are premed courses at UC but it is more difficult than at a CC. I kinda disagree with taking classes at a CC. I think if you are trying to get into a competitive MD school then taking your premed courses at a cc might hurt your chances.

 

[thepoopologist]

No I'm not implying that. Obviously there are premed courses at a UC. There are also premed courses at a CC, and while there are smart people on both ends, you may be on the better side of the curve with a CC. Then take all your other stuff at the UC. No they will not hurt your chances if you get a 3.9 in them and then do well on the MCAT. They will hurt your chances if you suck.

 

[NontradCA]

I believe that I would have similar experiences and options if I go to that DO joint program, also because of the guaranteed admission wouldn't I have more flexibility and options to study what I want instead if I went to the UC school and had to study relentlessly to try and be competitive?

You can just apply to MWU's Chicago DO program and get in without being in that joint program. Being in that will increase your stress level, and put unnecessary expectations and time limits on you. I looked into these joint programs as well, thinking it might secure a spot for somewhere in med school, but I ultimately didn't do it (not by choice), and now I have a few MD acceptances and had interviews at every DO school I completed secondaries at. Keep your options and mind open. You're just starting UG. You should go to the school that's going to make you the most comfortable and provide you with resources and environment that's going to help you succeed.

 

[keunglh]

Yes the competitiveness. That and it's going to be tough to get some research opportunities (quality at least) despite the academic prowess of the place. Going to a UC is not necessarily going to help you get into a UC med school, to also note.

Of course there are premed courses at UC but it is more difficult than at a CC. I kinda disagree with taking classes at a CC. I think if you are trying to get into a competitive MD school then taking your premed courses at a cc might hurt your chances.

So would you guys believe that it might be a better ideal to go to the DO joint program first, and if I happen to do well within my first two years, that I could just apply out for MD schools in hand? That way I have the assurance but I could still take the risk of applying out?

 

[thepoopologist]

Which UC school is this?

 

[hybridomas89]

No I'm not implying that. Obviously there are premed courses at a UC. There are also premed courses at a CC, and while there are smart people on both ends, you may be on the better side of the curve with a CC. Then take all your other stuff at the UC. No they will not hurt your chances if you get a 3.9 in them and then do well on the MCAT. They will hurt your chances if you suck.

So if there were two applicants, one who received a 3.8 from a CC and another who received a 3.8 from UCB, and both of them have the same MCAT, won't the person from UCB have a better chance?

 

[NontradCA]

So would you guys believe that it might be a better ideal to go to the DO joint program first, and if I happen to do well within my first two years, that I could just apply out for MD schools in hand? That way I have the assurance but I could still take the risk of applying out?

Take the advice I have in the post above. Don't be scared of UC because of the competitiveness and don't go to it because of it's name. Go to wherever you're comfortable at. Ultimately it's your decision and you're going to do what you feel is right, but if you have to do the joint program. You can still go to that school's UG and pick whatever major you want.

 

[NontradCA]

So if there were two applicants, one who received a 3.8 from a CC and another who received a 3.8 from UCB, and both have of them have the same MCAT, won't the person from UCB have a better chance?

If they had the same exact ECs, life experience, research, background then the 4 year university will win out. But that's not going to happen. There are some schools that will look down on CC credits (not all), but it won't necessarily be the thing that sinks your application at those programs.

 

[keunglh]

Which UC school is this?

I currently have offers of admissions from UCD, UCR, UCSB, UCI, UCSD and I am now still waiting on UCLA.

Take the advice I have in the post above. Don't be scared of UC because of the competitiveness and don't go to it because of it's name. Go to wherever you're comfortable at. Ultimately it's your decision and you're going to do what you feel is right, but if you have to do the joint program. You can still go to that school's UG and pick whatever major you want.

So essentially you think that there will still be stress and troubles even with one of those joint programs? Also may I ask as to why you decided not to choose to go to those joint programs? Did you not think that having to go the traditional route was more troublesome than knowing you had secured a spot already?

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Just wondering, but could I hear your opinions as to why you would not take UC? Is it mainly because of the competitiveness of the undergraduates and the cutthroat attitudes?

I certainly can try:
1) You dont realize the stupid hoops you have to jump through to get an acceptance. Some of the stuff I think is very humbling and I think that this process is important, but other things are just time wasters... "oh I need to make sure I get research (oh wait I hate research), and clinical so I can know what its like to be a doctor (oh wait most clinical is in nursing homes or hospice where you basically are a CNA slave to nurses, never even see or spend time with docs unless you are one of the incredibly lucky people who can manage getting a cool job or can manage working as a scribe throughout school. Or you shadow a bunch of physicians only to find out everyone shadows so it doesnt make you stand out at all), volunteering (I actually think this is important). Fretting over getting a ridiculous score on the MCAT. The averages for matriculants has been steadily rising like .5-1 point every year... I dont know if its the economy or what, but competition is super fierce. Docs that I have talked to have consistently commented on how they would never have gotten into school if they had to apply in these times. Being able to bypass a lot of this is incredible...

2) CCOM is arguably the best DO school in the country. It is one of the original 5. It stands shoulder to shoulder with a half dozen MD schools in the area and from all my experience here in the midwest, the docs that graduate from there not only have a great chance of going into any specialty they want (comparatively to smaller/newer DO schools) they are also highly respected in the community. I have shadowed an Orthopedic surgeon and Peds doc from CCOM and the respect from their MD colleagues is immense.

3) The recent DO/MD residency match should be reducing a lot of the stigma behind DO's and it should also open a ton more opportunities up in the future. By the time you get to residency (roughly 7-8 years from now), I think if you have solid grades and boards from CCOM you should be faring just as well residency wise if you were going to pretty much any of the MD schools in the city.

4) California has probably the highest standards for acceptance of all of the states. Like the bar is set so high for the schools there, there are just so many solid applicants and as has been mentioned throughout this thread, the UC schools in particular seem to create a certain amount of gunners/superstars which you would be competing with all 4 years. So IF you even get through those first few classes where you are competing with them, and IF you are still interested, you will still have a huge barrier to jump. A 3.6 GPA with a 31 MCAT could get you in some great schools... so long as you arent in CA... think higher scores...

 

[NontradCA]

I currently have offers of admissions from UCD, UCR, UCSB, UCI, UCSD and I am now still waiting on UCLA.



So essentially you think that there will still be stress and troubles even with one of those joint programs? Also may I ask as to why you decided not to choose to go to those joint programs? Did you not think that having to go the traditional route was more troublesome than knowing you had secured a spot already?

UCSD and UCI will put you in some nice (prolly nicest in the US) locations for going to school. UCLA's location is meh. UCR has some perks because riverside will be cheaper (relatively) to live in, and being in Riverside, making ties will actually help you if you plan on applying to UCRs med program. Other than that, the undergraduate education is going to be similar across the board, with UCLA and UCSD having possibly more opportunities for research and clubs etc.

I didn't do the joint program because I wasn't a science major and they required I completed some other courses that essentially would have been a waste of time. I ended up interviewing at that school, and it actually rubbed me the wrong way. I would have been severely let down if I completed the BS/DO through that school to find out I didn't like it. You'd essentially be pigeonholing yourself into MWU, and it may lead to some complacency since they have lowered expectations for their joint students. I think that you should enjoy UG as much as you can, without having specific plans of x and y, because chances are not everything is going to go according to plan. That's just life.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Oh, I misinterpreted the op's post entirely. What was I thinking! I read it as he had been accepted to a DO and UC MD program lol.

Yeah op, go with the joint program. That just makes sense. The UC name won't really help you a whole lot when it comes to gaining admission to MD schools, and your GPA will likely suffer if you attend one, as I have heard their science programs are brutal to say the least.

This right here... When you are in highschool everyone is all up on going to the best college of university or whatever. But right here you hold in your hands a near guarantee to Medical school... you have basically been given the key to crossing a major hurdle. I would take the DO acceptance in a heartbeat. I imagine that almost nothing that I learned in college will be useful to me once I am a doctor. You will learn all you need in residency. Just get to residency as fast and with the least stress as possible.

 

[thepoopologist]

You'll have a great time at those schools. Don't settle.